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On June 17 2013 23:47 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 23:16 Noli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM.
Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM.
The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below)
"Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM."I'm kind of tired of seeing that line. I would bet you all my savings and my life that no Bronze has 500 APM. The A in APM stands for AVERAGE. If a Bronze player on AVERAGE has 500 APM then they are just smashing their hands, feet, and face against the keyboard and mouse. And then there is the matter that it is no small feet to have even 300 actions in a single minute without massive spamming. Which is why JulyZerg who is famous for his apm only had 400 apm in BW. So why even over exagerate and say 500 apm. "Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM." And I'm sorry but what pros are you referring too. I consider ESF and Kespa as the pool of pros you must be revering too. I doubt any of them have below 100 APM. So please either link a source or don't spread lies. "The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below)" I love how here you speak for the community again as this thread has shown their are plenty of us who care about APM still. And please don't insult people base on their league it doesn't make you cool. So overall I'd give your 3 outstanding points a 0/3.
It's entirely possible that people can be extremely fast at typing/playing other games just started playing Starcraft 2 so have no understanding/ spaming (Very common at lower levels) or playing without precision and just flailing stuff everywhere. High apm does not transition to high skill though yes if you are insanely good it helps you do more but you need knowledge to use it efficiently. If Bogus was randomly taking loads of engagements without thinking chances are he'd lose a good amount of them and have a higher apm.
Many none Koreans are known for their low APM such as Goody etc. Obviously pros that are relevant such as Kepsa pros play at far higher speeds.
and 3 you forget how much of Teamliquid these days never played Broodwar and are horrible at the game so they think APM is important. If you are below high masters you don't understand the game at all and have no right to comment on it. I didn't say it to be "cool" I said it because it's true. Tasteless has stated this lots on GOM that Teamliquid is fairly toxic community now. The fact you seem to think that anyone in low masters (the majority of TL) has an understanding enough to judge how important APM is.
APM is a cool stat and cool to watch etc but nothing more.
Starcraft 2 being so easy and automating so much killed the need for high APM.
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On June 18 2013 00:32 KazmA wrote:Show nested quote +However, due to the speed of SC2 being a lot faster than BW, there is a hard cap on how well APM/EAPM/XPM translates to effective in-game actions. When battles are happening in a span of 2-5 seconds instead of say 5-8 seconds (just general and perhaps arbitrary numbers, but it is visually obvious that BW battles happen over an longer span of time), the amount of actual input that a human being can produce is much more limited.
SC2 is not a "faster" game than BW. I understand what you're trying to say here but it actually doesn't make any sense.
Go back and play BW, then play SC2. The units move faster in SC2, the pacing is faster, and everything is noticeably faster. How is this even debatable?
On June 18 2013 00:26 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 00:09 Qaatar wrote:On June 18 2013 00:00 ElBlanco wrote:On June 17 2013 21:16 sabas123 wrote:On June 17 2013 20:48 BisuDagger wrote:On June 17 2013 20:27 ElBlanco wrote:On June 17 2013 20:17 BisuDagger wrote:On June 17 2013 20:02 MockHamill wrote:
I play Terran at low Master level with 55 APM. Most of my opponents have 2-3 times my APM. Them being faster than me hardly matters at all.
99% of my losses comes from bad scouting or making bad decisions. APM hardly affect me at all, especially since most high APM players waste much of their APM on useless actions.
Scouting, decision making and macro decides games, not speed. It is possible that speed matters a bit more on the pro level, but even there 95% of the games are decided by who makes the best decisions.
That just makes me sad. In SCBW and WC3 55 apm is like doing absolutely nothing. In WC3 just controlling a hero takes 55 apm. 55 apm means you actually have 5 seconds every minute that you just sit around. So every 5 minutes you've had 25 seconds worth of break time. 200 APM needs to mean so much more in SC2. This is why people like Bisu aren't winning GSLs. This is nothing more than an excuse. Just because you don't need APM at a low level doesn't mean it has no impact at a high level.Bisu is losing because of bad strategies and bad play. Plenty of high level players from all races are showing the benefits of having high APM and good multitasking. I should have left out the last line. It doesn't excuse the fact that in a Real Time Strategy Game you have five seconds of available decision making. Every second should count. And every second deserves action to put yourself ahead of your opponent. that is verry true. one thing that is quite diffrent with sc2 and many other rts and bw in particulair is that the timing of certain things are to insignificant, like bisudagger said there is PLENTY time to do anything you like even in crucial moments, while in bw and some other games that totally ISN'T the case. if 1 difiler pops, EVERYTHING switches, the thing with apm and sc2 is that there is to much time between tides changing drasticly, which is why apm becouse significant less important. Not sure if you're serious here but one of the main complaints leveled against SC2 is that things happen all in one instant and the game just ends. You have it backwards. In BW because things tended not to just end in one battle like in SC2 there was more room to multitask and win through lots of little victories. HOTS has improved this a bit but there is still a way to go. I still think the problem is exaggerated. You pretty much can't be a top pro at SC2 without having a really high APM and the best players are all pretty damn fast. Actually, it's a mixture. You CAN be a top pro in SC2 without being particularly fast (just not Kespa level) due to the automation of certain mechanics. However, due to the speed of SC2 being a lot faster than BW, there is a hard cap on how well APM/EAPM/XPM translates to effective in-game actions. When battles are happening in a span of 2-5 seconds instead of say 5-8 seconds (just general and perhaps arbitrary numbers, but it is visually obvious that BW battles happen over an longer span of time), the amount of actual input that a human being can produce is much more limited. This begs the question: why was the "fastest" setting decided to be the standard in SC2? becouse its the most fun to play with and nobody wants to play otherwise.
It's more fun to not pay attention at any given moment and have your units die instantly? There is a good medium for how fast a game should be...SC2 is a bit too fast.
A lot of the problems in SC2 actually boils down to the speed of the game. It's obviously too late now, since many units and just basic game design is balanced around "fastest", but that's a shame. If the game were a little slower, and gave players more room to micro, this game would be a lot better.
Multitasking doesn't actually exist, as a lot of people know, but rather, it's just muscle memory and short-term memorization of certain tasks. If things happen too fast, all of the memory in the world isn't going to help. That's the root of the problem.
On June 18 2013 00:48 Noli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 23:47 BisuDagger wrote:On June 17 2013 23:16 Noli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM.
Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM.
The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below)
"Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM."I'm kind of tired of seeing that line. I would bet you all my savings and my life that no Bronze has 500 APM. The A in APM stands for AVERAGE. If a Bronze player on AVERAGE has 500 APM then they are just smashing their hands, feet, and face against the keyboard and mouse. And then there is the matter that it is no small feet to have even 300 actions in a single minute without massive spamming. Which is why JulyZerg who is famous for his apm only had 400 apm in BW. So why even over exagerate and say 500 apm. "Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM." And I'm sorry but what pros are you referring too. I consider ESF and Kespa as the pool of pros you must be revering too. I doubt any of them have below 100 APM. So please either link a source or don't spread lies. "The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below)" I love how here you speak for the community again as this thread has shown their are plenty of us who care about APM still. And please don't insult people base on their league it doesn't make you cool. So overall I'd give your 3 outstanding points a 0/3. Starcraft 2 being so easy and automating so much killed the need for high APM.
Again, I'd beg to differ. SC2 being too fast killed the need for high APM. Like every defender of SC2 says, certain menial tasks being automated translates to that leftover APM being used to army control, multitasking, etc. But if the human being isn't given enough time to do all of that, then what's the point?
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Bisutopia19225 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:48 Noli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 23:47 BisuDagger wrote:On June 17 2013 23:16 Noli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM.
Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM.
The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below)
"Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM."I'm kind of tired of seeing that line. I would bet you all my savings and my life that no Bronze has 500 APM. The A in APM stands for AVERAGE. If a Bronze player on AVERAGE has 500 APM then they are just smashing their hands, feet, and face against the keyboard and mouse. And then there is the matter that it is no small feet to have even 300 actions in a single minute without massive spamming. Which is why JulyZerg who is famous for his apm only had 400 apm in BW. So why even over exagerate and say 500 apm. "Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM." And I'm sorry but what pros are you referring too. I consider ESF and Kespa as the pool of pros you must be revering too. I doubt any of them have below 100 APM. So please either link a source or don't spread lies. "The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below)" I love how here you speak for the community again as this thread has shown their are plenty of us who care about APM still. And please don't insult people base on their league it doesn't make you cool. So overall I'd give your 3 outstanding points a 0/3. It's entirely possible that people can be extremely fast at typing/playing other games just started playing Starcraft 2 so have no understanding/ spaming (Very common at lower levels) or playing without precision and just flailing stuff everywhere. High apm does not transition to high skill though yes if you are insanely good it helps you do more but you need knowledge to use it efficiently. If Bogus was randomly taking loads of engagements without thinking chances are he'd lose a good amount of them and have a higher apm. Many none Koreans are known for their low APM such as Goody etc. Obviously pros that are relevant such as Kepsa pros play at far higher speeds. and 3 you forget how much of Teamliquid these days never played Broodwar and are horrible at the game so they think APM is important. If you are below high masters you don't understand the game at all and have no right to comment on it. I didn't say it to be "cool" I said it because it's true. Tasteless has stated this lots on GOM that Teamliquid is fairly toxic community now. The fact you seem to think that anyone in low masters (the majority of TL) has an understanding enough to judge how important APM is. APM is a cool stat and cool to watch etc but nothing more. Starcraft 2 being so easy and automating so much killed the need for high APM.
Your final two paragraphs are very debatable and I don't necessarily have a strong enough opinion to disagree. But I still find it impossible for a bronze league-er to have a high APM especially if they are new. You actually have to understand hotkeys in order to get apm that high. Click 1-cc 2-army 300 times throughout 15 minutes is incredibly hard and I doubt some1 in low leagues has more advanced hotkeys then that. I honestly believe in order to have high apm to a certain degree you have to be good at the game. Thank you for the good responses btw.
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In response to the OP i kinda agree. The APM tab is not shown enough and it is absolutely the easiest-to-relate-to-stat in the game for people "outside the game". It should not be displayed permanently for every game because it really doesn't say tell you anything worthwhile and it just clogs up the screen. However having it shown intermittently like how it was done in WCS EU would be nice.
The only real information you get out of the APM tab is how fast a players fingers move on average during a game. While that value tells you something about a player relative to another player it completely fails at predicting anything about a given game between two players, thus it shouldn't be a permanent fixture. EAPM does a slightly better job of predicting the outcome of games (more so in the lategame) but it still really doesn't tell you anything.
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The actual actions professionals perform matter more than the raw input of those actions, or rather the amount of actions and inaccuracy of them--so you could say. That is only assuming that these actions are actually unnecessary and do not contribute towards the player's play in any way (or even contributing negatively).
To say the measurement of these actions (their amount, etc) don't matter at all is similar to saying these players don't have very much care for how they perform. They can perform to the best of their ability and in their current form, but can they touch the ceiling of what is possible or what may be a breakthrough in future regular strategic plays?
You learn to get faster, more accurate, and to be much more conscious because you need to do so. Sjow is 100-150? he was in the lower ranges of 0-100 before those replays; you saw his performance against RO16 opponent, his level multitasking and game-sense costed him army units many times even still.
I'll be honest, having this statistic blazing on the screen and in your face all the time just breeds jealousy and is a stat that shares the attention-pie that is the gameplay--and lets all be honest here, arguments against having fast hand-speed like, 'that's completely unnecessary' are more like excuses than reasons.
The whole reason i got into Starcraft:BW, and then into Teamliquid early in the days was because i watched the FPVoD's of YellOw, Reach, and julyzerg. Being the absolute scrub back then and feeling good about my play prior to watching these videos, i had no clue about what was brewing on the other side of the world or the amazing play they were exhibiting.
People actually watched these players play, often lining up outside a studio just to be a part of the story in a minor way as audience. I asked myself the question, 'would anyone ever travel to watch me play starcraft too?'--obviously not, when you have players like Reach, boxer, and friends. I then asked myself the question, how can i be more like park jung suk?
First of all, i want/need to live in his boots more. He does everything in the game at least twice as fast as i do, and probably more comfortably too.
Who are you to say that playing faster doesn't matter?
Have you even tried yourself? or tried adding smarter play in conjuction?
You'll honestly be surprised with yourself if you put in the effort and if not, then i respect that lifestyle/playstyle, but it's simply not mine.
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On June 18 2013 01:41 nanaoei wrote:
The actual actions professionals perform matter more than the raw input of those actions, or rather the amount of actions and inaccuracy of them--so you could say. That is only assuming that these actions are actually unnecessary and do not contribute towards the player's play in any way (or even contributing negatively).
To say the measurement of these actions (their amount, etc) don't matter at all is similar to saying these players don't have very much care for how they perform. They can perform to the best of their ability and in their current form, but can they touch the ceiling of what is possible or what may be a breakthrough in future regular strategic plays?
You learn to get faster, more accurate, and to be much more conscious because you need to do so. Sjow is 100-150? he was in the lower ranges of 0-100 before those replays; you saw his performance against RO16 opponent, his level multitasking and game-sense costed him army units many times even still.
I'll be honest, having this statistic blazing on the screen and in your face all the time just breeds jealousy and is a stat that shares the attention-pie that is the gameplay--and lets all be honest here, arguments against having fast hand-speed like, 'that's completely unnecessary' are more like excuses than reasons.
The whole reason i got into Starcraft:BW, and then into Teamliquid early in the days was because i watched the FPVoD's of YellOw, Reach, and julyzerg. Being the absolute scrub back then and feeling good about my play prior to watching these videos, i had no clue about what was brewing on the other side of the world or the amazing play they were exhibiting.
People actually watched these players play, often lining up outside a studio just to be a part of the story in a minor way as audience. I asked myself the question, 'would anyone ever travel to watch me play starcraft too?'--obviously not, when you have players like Reach, boxer, and friends. I then asked myself the question, how can i be more like park jung suk?
First of all, i want/need to live in his boots more. He does everything in the game at least twice as fast as i do, and probably more comfortably too.
Who are you to say that playing faster doesn't matter?
Have you even tried yourself? or tried adding smarter play in conjuction?
You'll honestly be surprised with yourself if you put in the effort and if not, then i respect that lifestyle/playstyle, but it's simply not mine.
Absolutely beautiful 
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they did this to some part at WCS EU with including a keybaordcam with the apm numbers, but still tons of that apm is jst spam, bewtween 2 usages of the CC (calling mules building scv scan etc) it gets selected like 20 times without any meaning to it
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On June 18 2013 01:41 nanaoei wrote:
The actual actions professionals perform matter more than the raw input of those actions, or rather the amount of actions and inaccuracy of them--so you could say. That is only assuming that these actions are actually unnecessary and do not contribute towards the player's play in any way (or even contributing negatively).
To say the measurement of these actions (their amount, etc) don't matter at all is similar to saying these players don't have very much care for how they perform. They can perform to the best of their ability and in their current form, but can they touch the ceiling of what is possible or what may be a breakthrough in future regular strategic plays?
You learn to get faster, more accurate, and to be much more conscious because you need to do so. Sjow is 100-150? he was in the lower ranges of 0-100 before those replays; you saw his performance against RO16 opponent, his level multitasking and game-sense costed him army units many times even still.
I'll be honest, having this statistic blazing on the screen and in your face all the time just breeds jealousy and is a stat that shares the attention-pie that is the gameplay--and lets all be honest here, arguments against having fast hand-speed like, 'that's completely unnecessary' are more like excuses than reasons.
The whole reason i got into Starcraft:BW, and then into Teamliquid early in the days was because i watched the FPVoD's of YellOw, Reach, and julyzerg. Being the absolute scrub back then and feeling good about my play prior to watching these videos, i had no clue about what was brewing on the other side of the world or the amazing play they were exhibiting.
People actually watched these players play, often lining up outside a studio just to be a part of the story in a minor way as audience. I asked myself the question, 'would anyone ever travel to watch me play starcraft too?'--obviously not, when you have players like Reach, boxer, and friends. I then asked myself the question, how can i be more like park jung suk?
First of all, i want/need to live in his boots more. He does everything in the game at least twice as fast as i do, and probably more comfortably too.
Who are you to say that playing faster doesn't matter?
Have you even tried yourself? or tried adding smarter play in conjuction?
You'll honestly be surprised with yourself if you put in the effort and if not, then i respect that lifestyle/playstyle, but it's simply not mine.
Thank you for some much needed reason. Of course APM matters in a game like SC2. Sure, APM isnt the sole metric that determines a player's skill. Sure, APM is probably less influential in SC2 than BW. Players like SjoW, GoOdy, Elfi, etc. with very low APM always seem to drop off the radar as time goes on. They can stand to play low APM styles when the metagame isn't concrete. Where are all the low APM wonders now? Axslav is casting, GoOdy and SjoW have just had some success at DH after not hearing about them for a year or more, Elfi hasnt been around until DH either... Flash has a relatively low APM for a Korean but its still much higher than your average player.. so I dont really understand where people get this notion that APM is completely unimportant. I agree that it sounds for of an excuse for low APM on their part than a reason.
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The actual actions professionals perform matter more than the raw input of those actions, or rather the amount of actions and inaccuracy of them--so you could say. That is only assuming that these actions are actually unnecessary and do not contribute towards the player's play in any way (or even contributing negatively).
To say the measurement of these actions (their amount, etc) don't matter at all is similar to saying these players don't have very much care for how they perform. They can perform to the best of their ability and in their current form, but can they touch the ceiling of what is possible or what may be a breakthrough in future regular strategic plays?
You learn to get faster, more accurate, and to be much more conscious because you need to do so. Sjow is 100-150? he was in the lower ranges of 0-100 before those replays; you saw his performance against RO16 opponent, his level multitasking and game-sense costed him army units many times even still.
I'll be honest, having this statistic blazing on the screen and in your face all the time just breeds jealousy and is a stat that shares the attention-pie that is the gameplay--and lets all be honest here, arguments against having fast hand-speed like, 'that's completely unnecessary' are more like excuses than reasons.
The whole reason i got into Starcraft:BW, and then into Teamliquid early in the days was because i watched the FPVoD's of YellOw, Reach, and julyzerg. Being the absolute scrub back then and feeling good about my play prior to watching these videos, i had no clue about what was brewing on the other side of the world or the amazing play they were exhibiting.
People actually watched these players play, often lining up outside a studio just to be a part of the story in a minor way as audience. I asked myself the question, 'would anyone ever travel to watch me play starcraft too?'--obviously not, when you have players like Reach, boxer, and friends. I then asked myself the question, how can i be more like park jung suk?
First of all, i want/need to live in his boots more. He does everything in the game at least twice as fast as i do, and probably more comfortably too.
Who are you to say that playing faster doesn't matter?
Have you even tried yourself? or tried adding smarter play in conjuction?
You'll honestly be surprised with yourself if you put in the effort and if not, then i respect that lifestyle/playstyle, but it's simply not mine.
yeah, that's pretty much it. You CAN'T argue that being faster is better. It's just nonsense, it's always a plus. So why would you come and say "lol im low master with 55 apm, apm doesn't matter". I got a friend who got to low master doing 2 raxes with 50 apm, does it makes him any good? Of course not. Would he be better with 300 apm doing the same 2 rax? Of course.
Saying that having high apm is being good is also stupid, but most people are just arguing against being fast, just as said above as an excuse for them being slow. I for one enjoy working on mechanics, apm and mouse precision, I was happy to recently reach 150/160 EAPM, and I feel it helped me to be a better player, because to get there I had to work on my macro cycle and hotkey efficiency.
Focus on what you prefer in the game, as if you're pro it won't matter anyway, but don't come here and argue that working on apm doesn't matter for pro players because sjow or elfi can take games off koreans. They would be better if they were faster too (sjow wouldn't be floating 1K5/2Kmins every time he pushes I.E). If you aim for getting to your highest level, you've got to work on that too.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 02:00 Nimix wrote:Show nested quote +
The actual actions professionals perform matter more than the raw input of those actions, or rather the amount of actions and inaccuracy of them--so you could say. That is only assuming that these actions are actually unnecessary and do not contribute towards the player's play in any way (or even contributing negatively).
To say the measurement of these actions (their amount, etc) don't matter at all is similar to saying these players don't have very much care for how they perform. They can perform to the best of their ability and in their current form, but can they touch the ceiling of what is possible or what may be a breakthrough in future regular strategic plays?
You learn to get faster, more accurate, and to be much more conscious because you need to do so. Sjow is 100-150? he was in the lower ranges of 0-100 before those replays; you saw his performance against RO16 opponent, his level multitasking and game-sense costed him army units many times even still.
I'll be honest, having this statistic blazing on the screen and in your face all the time just breeds jealousy and is a stat that shares the attention-pie that is the gameplay--and lets all be honest here, arguments against having fast hand-speed like, 'that's completely unnecessary' are more like excuses than reasons.
The whole reason i got into Starcraft:BW, and then into Teamliquid early in the days was because i watched the FPVoD's of YellOw, Reach, and julyzerg. Being the absolute scrub back then and feeling good about my play prior to watching these videos, i had no clue about what was brewing on the other side of the world or the amazing play they were exhibiting.
People actually watched these players play, often lining up outside a studio just to be a part of the story in a minor way as audience. I asked myself the question, 'would anyone ever travel to watch me play starcraft too?'--obviously not, when you have players like Reach, boxer, and friends. I then asked myself the question, how can i be more like park jung suk?
First of all, i want/need to live in his boots more. He does everything in the game at least twice as fast as i do, and probably more comfortably too.
Who are you to say that playing faster doesn't matter?
Have you even tried yourself? or tried adding smarter play in conjuction?
You'll honestly be surprised with yourself if you put in the effort and if not, then i respect that lifestyle/playstyle, but it's simply not mine.
yeah, that's pretty much it. You CAN'T argue that being faster is better. It's just nonsense, it's always a plus. So why would you come and say "lol im low master with 55 apm, apm doesn't matter". I got a friend who got to low master doing 2 raxes with 50 apm, does it makes him any good? Of course not. Would he be better with 300 apm doing the same 2 rax? Of course. Saying that having high apm is being good is also stupid, but most people are just arguing against being fast, just as said above as an excuse for them being slow. I for one enjoy working on mechanics, apm and mouse precision, I was happy to recently reach 150/160 EAPM, and I feel it helped me to be a better player, because to get there I had to work on my macro cycle and hotkey efficiency. Focus on what you prefer in the game, as if you're pro it won't matter anyway, but don't come here and argue that working on apm doesn't matter for pro players because sjow or elfi can take games off koreans. They would be better if they were faster too (sjow wouldn't be floating 1K5/2Kmins every time he pushes I.E). If you aim for getting to your highest level, you've got to work on that too.
This gets said so much but here I go again: there is a correlation between skill and APM however high APM != skill.
Practicing SC2 increases your APM so as you get better your APM increases.
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On June 18 2013 02:39 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 02:00 Nimix wrote:
The actual actions professionals perform matter more than the raw input of those actions, or rather the amount of actions and inaccuracy of them--so you could say. That is only assuming that these actions are actually unnecessary and do not contribute towards the player's play in any way (or even contributing negatively).
To say the measurement of these actions (their amount, etc) don't matter at all is similar to saying these players don't have very much care for how they perform. They can perform to the best of their ability and in their current form, but can they touch the ceiling of what is possible or what may be a breakthrough in future regular strategic plays?
You learn to get faster, more accurate, and to be much more conscious because you need to do so. Sjow is 100-150? he was in the lower ranges of 0-100 before those replays; you saw his performance against RO16 opponent, his level multitasking and game-sense costed him army units many times even still.
I'll be honest, having this statistic blazing on the screen and in your face all the time just breeds jealousy and is a stat that shares the attention-pie that is the gameplay--and lets all be honest here, arguments against having fast hand-speed like, 'that's completely unnecessary' are more like excuses than reasons.
The whole reason i got into Starcraft:BW, and then into Teamliquid early in the days was because i watched the FPVoD's of YellOw, Reach, and julyzerg. Being the absolute scrub back then and feeling good about my play prior to watching these videos, i had no clue about what was brewing on the other side of the world or the amazing play they were exhibiting.
People actually watched these players play, often lining up outside a studio just to be a part of the story in a minor way as audience. I asked myself the question, 'would anyone ever travel to watch me play starcraft too?'--obviously not, when you have players like Reach, boxer, and friends. I then asked myself the question, how can i be more like park jung suk?
First of all, i want/need to live in his boots more. He does everything in the game at least twice as fast as i do, and probably more comfortably too.
Who are you to say that playing faster doesn't matter?
Have you even tried yourself? or tried adding smarter play in conjuction?
You'll honestly be surprised with yourself if you put in the effort and if not, then i respect that lifestyle/playstyle, but it's simply not mine.
yeah, that's pretty much it. You CAN'T argue that being faster is better. It's just nonsense, it's always a plus. So why would you come and say "lol im low master with 55 apm, apm doesn't matter". I got a friend who got to low master doing 2 raxes with 50 apm, does it makes him any good? Of course not. Would he be better with 300 apm doing the same 2 rax? Of course. Saying that having high apm is being good is also stupid, but most people are just arguing against being fast, just as said above as an excuse for them being slow. I for one enjoy working on mechanics, apm and mouse precision, I was happy to recently reach 150/160 EAPM, and I feel it helped me to be a better player, because to get there I had to work on my macro cycle and hotkey efficiency. Focus on what you prefer in the game, as if you're pro it won't matter anyway, but don't come here and argue that working on apm doesn't matter for pro players because sjow or elfi can take games off koreans. They would be better if they were faster too (sjow wouldn't be floating 1K5/2Kmins every time he pushes I.E). If you aim for getting to your highest level, you've got to work on that too. This gets said so much but here I go again: there is a correlation between skill and APM however high APM != skill. Practicing SC2 increases your APM so as you get better your APM increases.
Although I strongly agree with this, is there evidence of pro players who have increased in results after significantly dropping their APM?
Is there a pro player who has better results now that he doesn't move as quickly as he did before?
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Artosis wrote this on the scdojo, talking about the skill ceiling in SC2.
"You don’t understand how good flash was at SC1. His accomplishments don’t do his skill justice. Even if you were a huge fan, and watched every single game he ever played, you probably still don’t understand how good he truly was.
NonY had a perfect quote about Bisu. It was something like this:
You can’t understand what Bisu is doing unless you are fast enough to do it yourself.
He said it a bit more eloquently than I remember it, but the moment he said it, I got chills. With an almost endless skill ceiling, beautiful things are possible. Things so beautiful, that if you put in more time into the understanding of them, they will become more beautiful."
Both NonY and Artosis have put an emphasis on APM in the past. I remember watching VODS of them in super early SC2 where they would actually practice faster then their abilities to help increase their effective APM overtime.
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On June 18 2013 03:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 03:09 FatkiddsLag wrote:
Artosis wrote this on the scdojo, talking about the skill ceiling in SC2.
"You don’t understand how good flash was at SC1. His accomplishments don’t do his skill justice. Even if you were a huge fan, and watched every single game he ever played, you probably still don’t understand how good he truly was.
NonY had a perfect quote about Bisu. It was something like this:
You can’t understand what Bisu is doing unless you are fast enough to do it yourself.
He said it a bit more eloquently than I remember it, but the moment he said it, I got chills. With an almost endless skill ceiling, beautiful things are possible. Things so beautiful, that if you put in more time into the understanding of them, they will become more beautiful."
Both NonY and Artosis have put an emphasis on APM in the past. I remember watching VODS of them in super early SC2 where they would actually practice faster then their abilities to help increase their effective APM overtime.
And yet NonY purposefully plays with a very calm, accurate style. It's not about raw speed, it's a combination of speed and accuracy: Bisu had both speed and accuracy.
You say that as if people are advocating that accuracy isn't important. Any progamer with that sort of APM has the skill to be accurate with it. We aren't talking about regular players.
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On June 18 2013 03:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 03:09 FatkiddsLag wrote:
Artosis wrote this on the scdojo, talking about the skill ceiling in SC2.
"You don’t understand how good flash was at SC1. His accomplishments don’t do his skill justice. Even if you were a huge fan, and watched every single game he ever played, you probably still don’t understand how good he truly was.
NonY had a perfect quote about Bisu. It was something like this:
You can’t understand what Bisu is doing unless you are fast enough to do it yourself.
He said it a bit more eloquently than I remember it, but the moment he said it, I got chills. With an almost endless skill ceiling, beautiful things are possible. Things so beautiful, that if you put in more time into the understanding of them, they will become more beautiful."
Both NonY and Artosis have put an emphasis on APM in the past. I remember watching VODS of them in super early SC2 where they would actually practice faster then their abilities to help increase their effective APM overtime.
And yet NonY purposefully plays with a very calm, accurate style. It's not about raw speed, it's a combination of speed and accuracy: Bisu had both speed and accuracy.
I didn't realize inaccuracy was only a problem to high apm players and not low apm players...
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 02:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 02:39 Targe wrote:On June 18 2013 02:00 Nimix wrote:
The actual actions professionals perform matter more than the raw input of those actions, or rather the amount of actions and inaccuracy of them--so you could say. That is only assuming that these actions are actually unnecessary and do not contribute towards the player's play in any way (or even contributing negatively).
To say the measurement of these actions (their amount, etc) don't matter at all is similar to saying these players don't have very much care for how they perform. They can perform to the best of their ability and in their current form, but can they touch the ceiling of what is possible or what may be a breakthrough in future regular strategic plays?
You learn to get faster, more accurate, and to be much more conscious because you need to do so. Sjow is 100-150? he was in the lower ranges of 0-100 before those replays; you saw his performance against RO16 opponent, his level multitasking and game-sense costed him army units many times even still.
I'll be honest, having this statistic blazing on the screen and in your face all the time just breeds jealousy and is a stat that shares the attention-pie that is the gameplay--and lets all be honest here, arguments against having fast hand-speed like, 'that's completely unnecessary' are more like excuses than reasons.
The whole reason i got into Starcraft:BW, and then into Teamliquid early in the days was because i watched the FPVoD's of YellOw, Reach, and julyzerg. Being the absolute scrub back then and feeling good about my play prior to watching these videos, i had no clue about what was brewing on the other side of the world or the amazing play they were exhibiting.
People actually watched these players play, often lining up outside a studio just to be a part of the story in a minor way as audience. I asked myself the question, 'would anyone ever travel to watch me play starcraft too?'--obviously not, when you have players like Reach, boxer, and friends. I then asked myself the question, how can i be more like park jung suk?
First of all, i want/need to live in his boots more. He does everything in the game at least twice as fast as i do, and probably more comfortably too.
Who are you to say that playing faster doesn't matter?
Have you even tried yourself? or tried adding smarter play in conjuction?
You'll honestly be surprised with yourself if you put in the effort and if not, then i respect that lifestyle/playstyle, but it's simply not mine.
yeah, that's pretty much it. You CAN'T argue that being faster is better. It's just nonsense, it's always a plus. So why would you come and say "lol im low master with 55 apm, apm doesn't matter". I got a friend who got to low master doing 2 raxes with 50 apm, does it makes him any good? Of course not. Would he be better with 300 apm doing the same 2 rax? Of course. Saying that having high apm is being good is also stupid, but most people are just arguing against being fast, just as said above as an excuse for them being slow. I for one enjoy working on mechanics, apm and mouse precision, I was happy to recently reach 150/160 EAPM, and I feel it helped me to be a better player, because to get there I had to work on my macro cycle and hotkey efficiency. Focus on what you prefer in the game, as if you're pro it won't matter anyway, but don't come here and argue that working on apm doesn't matter for pro players because sjow or elfi can take games off koreans. They would be better if they were faster too (sjow wouldn't be floating 1K5/2Kmins every time he pushes I.E). If you aim for getting to your highest level, you've got to work on that too. This gets said so much but here I go again: there is a correlation between skill and APM however high APM != skill. Practicing SC2 increases your APM so as you get better your APM increases. Although I strongly agree with this, is there evidence of pro players who have increased in results after significantly dropping their APM? Is there a pro player who has better results now that he doesn't move as quickly as he did before?
Not that I know of, I don't actually know of any players who have said they purposely dropped APM at all.
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As a high master player and a regular viewer I don't want to hear casters talking about APM all that much honestly. Sure if one player specifically plays very very fast or with a very low APM it might be worth mentioning but aside from that it doesn't really add value to the cast at all it's a useless stat for the most part. You don't hear tennis commentators refer to the serving speed all the time either.
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On June 18 2013 03:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 03:09 FatkiddsLag wrote:
Artosis wrote this on the scdojo, talking about the skill ceiling in SC2.
"You don’t understand how good flash was at SC1. His accomplishments don’t do his skill justice. Even if you were a huge fan, and watched every single game he ever played, you probably still don’t understand how good he truly was.
NonY had a perfect quote about Bisu. It was something like this:
You can’t understand what Bisu is doing unless you are fast enough to do it yourself.
He said it a bit more eloquently than I remember it, but the moment he said it, I got chills. With an almost endless skill ceiling, beautiful things are possible. Things so beautiful, that if you put in more time into the understanding of them, they will become more beautiful."
Both NonY and Artosis have put an emphasis on APM in the past. I remember watching VODS of them in super early SC2 where they would actually practice faster then their abilities to help increase their effective APM overtime.
And yet NonY purposefully plays with a very calm, accurate style. It's not about raw speed, it's a combination of speed and accuracy: Bisu had both speed and accuracy.
He plays this methodical accurate style so that he can raise his speed and still be accurate. Demuslim has pointed this out many times on stream.
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On June 18 2013 00:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 23:47 BisuDagger wrote:
"Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM." And I'm sorry but what pros are you referring too. I consider ESF and Kespa as the pool of pros you must be revering too. I doubt any of them have below 100 APM. So please either link a source or don't spread lies. He talks about EU people like GoOdy, SjoW or elfi.
and exactly why he lost Game 1 versus Stardust.
Banking 1500 minerals, constantly supply blocked. If he was a faster player he could've easily won with his lead.
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On June 18 2013 06:23 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 00:03 TheDwf wrote:On June 17 2013 23:47 BisuDagger wrote:
"Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM." And I'm sorry but what pros are you referring too. I consider ESF and Kespa as the pool of pros you must be revering too. I doubt any of them have below 100 APM. So please either link a source or don't spread lies. He talks about EU people like GoOdy, SjoW or elfi. and exactly why he lost Game 1 versus Stardust. Banking 1500 minerals, constantly supply blocked. If he was a faster player he could've easily won with his lead.
Yes and no. Supply blocks have nothing to do with APM per se. Someone like TheStC plays much faster than SjoW, and still ends up being supply blocked quite often. Same for Sting. Multitask saturation and skipping production rounds when microing drops, etc., can also happen at much higher APM than SjoW's one.
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EPT
