EPTThe Importance of APM - Page 8
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 17 2013 20:27 ElBlanco wrote: This is nothing more than an excuse. Just because you don't need APM at a low level doesn't mean it has no impact at a high level.Bisu is losing because of bad strategies and bad play. Plenty of high level players from all races are showing the benefits of having high APM and good multitasking. What BisuDagger was getting at was that Bisu's BW style heavily rewarded multitasking and he was able to do what other people couldn't due to this skill, in SC2 there isn't any style that rewards him in the same way so he's a little lost. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
For somebody who hasn't imagined it before, breaking down what 300apm is in more layman terms is quite shocking for them. Are they just technically amazing piano players who love games? or is this just another thing in the world where people attune themselves to something and attempt to master? Some people immediately approach me about more information and find it interesting, or they ask me more about becoming a professional at gaming in general. This is just a bridge and a way for people to come to a realization... that games are not simply games, and that there is an ever-growing level of mastery to it. People love and enjoy watching it for what niche market there is to do so but in the end, it is a viable profession. There are people who find the 'cute' in everyday life to be littered in the online world, in japanese animation, in games, and in products related to everything mentioned. Other people aren't exposed or initially do not want to be exposed to those things, and find 'cute' in other simple things in life such as flowers. You may not need to advertise starcraft for what it is since gaming has become more popular over the years, but it always help to educate people on why you love things the way you do. If starcraft is a form of expression for you, i see no reason why you would not share with the people close with you. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On June 17 2013 22:26 nanaoei wrote: Whenever i introduce starcraft and the professional scene to a group of people who have had little or not exposure to it, i have always mentioned the prize-pool and the hand-speed and brilliance of the players. For somebody who hasn't imagined it before, breaking down what 300apm is in more layman terms is quite shocking for them. Are they just technically amazing piano players who love games? or is this just another thing in the world where people attune themselves to something and attempt to master? Some people immediately approach me about more information and find it interesting, or they ask me more about becoming a professional at gaming in general. This is just a bridge and a way for people to come to a realization... that games are not simply games, and that there is an ever-growing level of mastery to it. People love and enjoy watching it for what niche market there is to do so but in the end, it is a viable profession. There are people who find the 'cute' in everyday life to be littered in the online world, in japanese animation, in games, and in products related to everything mentioned. Other people aren't exposed or initially do not want to be exposed to those things, and find 'cute' in other simple things in life such as flowers. You may not need to advertise starcraft for what it is since gaming has become more popular over the years, but it always help to educate people on why you love things the way you do. If starcraft is a form of expression for you, i see no reason why you would not share with the people close with you. Well said. When introducing to new people, in fact I got in A in public speaking based of 4 prepared starcraft speeches and 1 improvised speech, here's the list of things I include: Boxer, 120,000 fans turned out to watch the final of the SKY proleague, APM, Air Force Ace, Kespa were a few. | ||
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Noli
United Kingdom179 Posts
Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM. The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below) | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:16 Noli wrote: Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM. Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM. The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below) "Having a high APM means nothing you could be Bronze with 500 APM." I'm kind of tired of seeing that line. I would bet you all my savings and my life that no Bronze has 500 APM. The A in APM stands for AVERAGE. If a Bronze player on AVERAGE has 500 APM then they are just smashing their hands, feet, and face against the keyboard and mouse. And then there is the matter that it is no small feet to have even 300 actions in a single minute without massive spamming. Which is why JulyZerg who is famous for his apm only had 400 apm in BW. So why even over exagerate and say 500 apm. "Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM." And I'm sorry but what pros are you referring too. I consider ESF and Kespa as the pool of pros you must be revering too. I doubt any of them have below 100 APM. So please either link a source or don't spread lies. "The only people who care about APM are our 2001 past selves and anyone in a league that means nothing (Diamond and below)" I love how here you speak for the community again as this thread has shown their are plenty of us who care about APM still. And please don't insult people base on their league it doesn't make you cool. So overall I'd give your 3 outstanding points a 0/3. | ||
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ElBlanco
Australia140 Posts
On June 17 2013 21:16 sabas123 wrote: that is verry true. one thing that is quite diffrent with sc2 and many other rts and bw in particulair is that the timing of certain things are to insignificant, like bisudagger said there is PLENTY time to do anything you like even in crucial moments, while in bw and some other games that totally ISN'T the case. if 1 difiler pops, EVERYTHING switches, the thing with apm and sc2 is that there is to much time between tides changing drasticly, which is why apm becouse significant less important. Not sure if you're serious here but one of the main complaints leveled against SC2 is that things happen all in one instant and the game just ends. You have it backwards. In BW because things tended not to just end in one battle like in SC2 there was more room to multitask and win through lots of little victories. HOTS has improved this a bit but there is still a way to go. I still think the problem is exaggerated. You pretty much can't be a top pro at SC2 without having a really high APM and the best players are all pretty damn fast. On June 17 2013 22:09 Targe wrote: What BisuDagger was getting at was that Bisu's BW style heavily rewarded multitasking and he was able to do what other people couldn't due to this skill, in SC2 there isn't any style that rewards him in the same way so he's a little lost. What i was getting at is there are plenty of players doing well in SC2 using styles focused on multitasking. Hell the best player in the world right now (innovation) basically builds his game around it (like a lot of terrans). There are protoss players who i have seen doing this as well (zealot warpins and warp prism harass especially in PvZ). I don't buy this excuse and why it seems to only really apply to him. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 17 2013 23:47 BisuDagger wrote: "Knowing how to use APM matters some Pros are known to have as low as 80-120 APM." And I'm sorry but what pros are you referring too. I consider ESF and Kespa as the pool of pros you must be revering too. I doubt any of them have below 100 APM. So please either link a source or don't spread lies. He talks about EU people like GoOdy, SjoW or elfi. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:03 TheDwf wrote: He talks about EU people like GoOdy, SjoW or elfi. I'm sorry but I doubt SjoW who is doing great in DH right now has 80 apm. There just isn't that much free time to be that slow. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:05 BisuDagger wrote: I'm sorry but I doubt SjoW who is doing great in DH right now has 80 apm. There just isn't that much free time to be that slow. He has between 100 and 150 on the 12 replays I have of him. | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:00 ElBlanco wrote: Not sure if you're serious here but one of the main complaints leveled against SC2 is that things happen all in one instant and the game just ends. You have it backwards. In BW because things tended not to just end in one battle like in SC2 there was more room to multitask and win through lots of little victories. HOTS has improved this a bit but there is still a way to go. I still think the problem is exaggerated. You pretty much can't be a top pro at SC2 without having a really high APM and the best players are all pretty damn fast. Actually, it's a mixture. You CAN be a top pro in SC2 without being particularly fast (just not Kespa level) due to the automation of certain mechanics. However, due to the speed of SC2 being a lot faster than BW, there is a hard cap on how well APM/EAPM/XPM translates to effective in-game actions. When battles are happening in a span of 2-5 seconds instead of say 5-8 seconds (just general and perhaps arbitrary numbers, but it is visually obvious that BW battles happen over an longer span of time), the amount of actual input that a human being can produce is much more limited. This begs the question: why was the "fastest" setting decided to be the standard in SC2? | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:00 ElBlanco wrote: Not sure if you're serious here but one of the main complaints leveled against SC2 is that things happen all in one instant and the game just ends. You have it backwards. In BW because things tended not to just end in one battle like in SC2 there was more room to multitask and win through lots of little victories. HOTS has improved this a bit but there is still a way to go. I still think the problem is exaggerated. You pretty much can't be a top pro at SC2 without having a really high APM and the best players are all pretty damn fast. What i was getting at is there are plenty of players doing well in SC2 using styles focused on multitasking. Hell the best player in the world right now (innovation) basically builds his game around it (like a lot of terrans). There are protoss players who i have seen doing this as well (zealot warpins and warp prism harass especially in PvZ). I don't buy this excuse and why it seems to only really apply to him. His PvZ games against sAviOr in the MSL finals, and his games thereafter, revolutionized how the match-up was played (hence gaining him the nickname of "The Revolutionist"). Relying on mass Corsairs to gain air superiority, he would strike the Zerg with timing attacks and harassment. From this style of play Bisu was able to show off his incredible multitasking abilities; many people believe Bisu's success lay not only in his strategic sense but also in his mechanics. This 'Bisu Build' brought the PvZ match-up into a new era, as Protoss started turning the tables against Zerg with Bisu himself at the lead of the metagame shift. Bisu's Liquipedia page Edit: Bolded for emphasis. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:00 ElBlanco wrote: Not sure if you're serious here but one of the main complaints leveled against SC2 is that things happen all in one instant and the game just ends. You have it backwards. In BW because things tended not to just end in one battle like in SC2 there was more room to multitask and win through lots of little victories. HOTS has improved this a bit but there is still a way to go. I still think the problem is exaggerated. You pretty much can't be a top pro at SC2 without having a really high APM and the best players are all pretty damn fast. sorry let me repreash it, the cycles in sc2 are to long or to few, for instance you could be done by macroing all your things in just 1 seconded without your screen there, while it could cost 3 seconds with screen in bw+you had many more other things to do. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:09 Qaatar wrote: Actually, it's a mixture. You CAN be a top pro in SC2 without being particularly fast (just not Kespa level) due to the automation of certain mechanics. However, due to the speed of SC2 being a lot faster than BW, there is a hard cap on how well APM/EAPM/XPM translates to effective in-game actions. When battles are happening in a span of 2-5 seconds instead of say 5-8 seconds (just general and perhaps arbitrary numbers, but it is visually obvious that BW battles happen over an longer span of time), the amount of actual input that a human being can produce is much more limited. This begs the question: why was the "fastest" setting decided to be the standard in SC2? becouse its the most fun to play with and nobody wants to play otherwise. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19299 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:08 TheDwf wrote: He has between 100 and 150 on the 12 replays I have of him. Fair enough thanks for the numbers. My argument would be better placed if he wasn't doing so well at DH lol. I would like to know where the average Kespa numbers lie. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:08 TheDwf wrote: He has between 100 and 150 on the 12 replays I have of him. To think I have the same APM as him o.0 | ||
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KazmA
United States117 Posts
However, due to the speed of SC2 being a lot faster than BW, there is a hard cap on how well APM/EAPM/XPM translates to effective in-game actions. When battles are happening in a span of 2-5 seconds instead of say 5-8 seconds (just general and perhaps arbitrary numbers, but it is visually obvious that BW battles happen over an longer span of time), the amount of actual input that a human being can produce is much more limited. SC2 is not a "faster" game than BW. I understand what you're trying to say here but it actually doesn't make any sense. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 18 2013 00:32 KazmA wrote: SC2 is not a "faster" game than BW. I understand what you're trying to say here but it actually doesn't make any sense. The pace of SC2 is definitely faster, units move around faster, kill faster and you can build everything more quickly. Edit: Build as in macro cycle. | ||
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Atrain1982
United States23 Posts
Anyways... Not sure if this is in the thread, but the SkillCraft study I believe collected some interesting data that included APM and some other markers of performance (similar to screen shifts). The cool thing about APM is it something that anybody can understand, and is impressed with. I just finished my PhD, and I did my dissertation on multitasking in SCII. Only one of the professors new what SCII was, but everyone was blown away by the moon/nada APM video. I had the same reaction from a recent professional development where I presented my dissertation. Basic point, 400+ APM catches non-gamers eye, and can get even the most skeptical observers to take 15 - 20 minutes to learn mor about SC2 | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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