EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=33374
The Importance of APM - Page 6
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chiflutz
Romania1025 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=33374 | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
In fights, there are far more important things to mention. And I fuck*n hate it when casters talk about "APM" at the start of the game when nothing happens. Whenever "APM" would be interesting, there are far more interesting things to talk about. I think it is better to show the First Person cam more often, either using a "over the shoulder" view or the ingame first person view WITH THE MOUSE CURSOR (very important!). There is also quite a big risk of alienating potential casual viewers with too much nerdy gibberish. | ||
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
Try maintaining control over two drops and army positioning with <100 apm. Any decent placement of static defence or units will make the drops a waste and ineffective if you are not in control of your drops. Unless the defender is willing to invest in enough static defence to cover their whole base (which will put them at a huge disadvantage) they will have to use a significant amount of apm to react to the dropping players apm. Otherwise the dropping player can just circumvent units/static defence and put the defender at a big disadvantage. It is when you watch players like select that you can really see how he is able to utilise his fantastic apm, with his abilitiy to multitask, to destroy opponents who cant keep up. As long as blizzard continues to make multitasking a viable and rewarding way to play, then apm will be very important and people with higher apm (and good multitasking) will be able to outplay lower apm players. High apm doesnt make good multitasking but good multitasking requires high apm. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
about 50-70% of high apm is useless spamming | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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loft
United States344 Posts
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scph
Korea (South)262 Posts
There you go. SC2 will never measure up to BW in raw mechanical skill. Maybe that's why BW is so much more fun to watch? Importance of APM, I'm all about that. I for one, get excited when I see this level of play. In BW, players could build their playstyle entirely around their mechanical ability, attacking the weak spots in an opponent's own mechanical ability. In SC2, these weak spots are significantly removed because the game does it for the player already, or allows the player to do it easily. Now, it's all about what unit vs what unit. | ||
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xokati
Poland33 Posts
What makes no impression on me?: - specific timming attack(as 90% of casuals i cannot appreciate attack that comes 15 sec before enemy will finish something and this is a reason of big advantage, im no a expert in game so i cannot notice this, for me is just "okej.. he came to his base with more units and won..strange" - apm statistic ( i start thinking then that this game is 90% arcade and 10% strategy, i really preffer to see someone with less apm but smarter composition and tactic) | ||
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loft
United States344 Posts
On June 17 2013 17:17 scph wrote: Now, it's all about what unit vs what unit. I thought this was a plus for SC2. Ability to transfer actions from meaningless tasks to things like army composition, positioning, and strategy. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
I increased my APM from around 150 to 200, and I moved up in rank from Silver to Gold league. This is a concrete example of how APM is pivotal in increasing an individual's skill. | ||
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scph
Korea (South)262 Posts
On June 17 2013 17:18 xokati wrote: As plat 29y old casual i may say that most interesting for me when i watch pros games are medium size battles. When splitting, surrounding, spell casting happend. Its nice to see good multitasking(few drops). What makes no impression on me?: - specific timming attack(as 90% of casuals i cannot appreciate attack that comes 15 sec before enemy will finish something and this is a reason of big advantage, im no a expert in game so i cannot notice this, for me is just "okej.. he came to his base with more units and won..strange" - apm statistic ( i start thinking then that this game is 90% arcade and 10% strategy, i really preffer to see someone with less apm but smarter composition and tactic) Medium sized battles is actually micro intensive, and thus, APM is factored into it, after all, you're not just attacking, you're attacking, building, microing, retreating, attacking, building, and so on. So...you really are interested in APM actually, unless you sit there with 20 units attacking and just staring at the screen waiting for the battle to end. A timing attack is considered non-strategic how? Lol. A timing attack is more like 90% strategy and 10% apm/execution/micro. It SHOULD leave an impression on you if you're more concerned with strategy, after all, unless he's blindly attacking you with a fixed TIMER set in his mind, he's scouted you and found a window of opportunity. Smarter composition and tactic, well, when it comes to SC2, this is what it really is all about already. Getting the right units and upgrades, attacking at the right angles/timings. Strategy. You know what the problem is? You don't see it as strategy because everyone's already capable of it. It's always the same strategy because everyone's figured it all out already, until the next popular build comes out. Why? Because SC2 is so friendly EVERYONE can play at low APM and manage bases and army, etc they have all the time they need to scout, plan, attack/defend. It then becomes a battle about who can do it most efficiently. | ||
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xokati
Poland33 Posts
On June 17 2013 17:32 ninazerg wrote: APM is the most important aspect of the game. Without APM, you wouldn't be able to move things around quickly and you would lose every game. Some people put too much stock in their silly little "strategies", which aren't really strategies at all, when the strategy should revolve around hitting the opponent with blinding amounts of APM. I increased my APM from around 150 to 200, and I moved up in rank from Silver to Gold league. This is a concrete example of how APM is pivotal in increasing an individual's skill. From other hand i was 40 apm bronze, now im 55 apm diamond... well... | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
On June 17 2013 17:34 xokati wrote: From other hand i was 40 apm bronze, now im 55 apm diamond... well... solidifying her theory? +1 brother, every since I increased my APM I am able to fight in grand master league!! hi5 for apm. | ||
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scph
Korea (South)262 Posts
On June 17 2013 17:24 loft wrote: I thought this was a plus for SC2. Ability to transfer actions from meaningless tasks to things like army composition, positioning, and strategy. Exactly, it's a plus for SC2 for those who prefer SC2 this way. Meaningless tasks is meaningless to some people, but to others, it can make or break the game. Is it more exciting to watch a player remember/not remember to repair a thor before it gets surrounded by lings in a 1 base terran all in, or is it more exciting that the scvs are on auto repair and the chance for lings to get the surround is guaranteed not to happen? Forcing the player to do more is better for the game, regardless of how mundane the task is. A lot of times, those mundane tasks are what make the games incredible to watch. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25381 Posts
I err more towards scph's view, albeit from a slightly different perspective. The issue with a lot of the frustration with SC2 for many is the potency of allins that are difficult to scout and require very specific reactions, but sometimes without the corresponding difficulty of execution at the end of the other player. Not so much midgame ones, but really early timings can be a complete pain to successfully scout. For me watching BW (albeit I'm no expert) the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the early game scouting that is possible in that game. Without ramps that you can block easily, you see top level players like Bisu (as a Protoss I really have to start there with my retrospective viewings!) keep their scouting probes alive for ages and make meaningful reads. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On June 17 2013 17:32 ninazerg wrote: APM is the most important aspect of the game. Without APM, you wouldn't be able to move things around quickly and you would lose every game. Some people put too much stock in their silly little "strategies", which aren't really strategies at all, when the strategy should revolve around hitting the opponent with blinding amounts of APM. I increased my APM from around 150 to 200, and I moved up in rank from Silver to Gold league. This is a concrete example of how APM is pivotal in increasing an individual's skill. WHAT? If you had invested that time into doing the right thing instead of the wrong thing faster you would be in diamond now instead of Gold. Your existence proofs very well that APM alone is not very important. There are PRO players with less APM then you. You should reevaluate your priorities. The number alone says very little. IF you look at pro replays, some of them have the habit to issue move commands several times. Others put effort into every single action and make fewer more accurate clicks. Often you can do more with less AMP and more accuracy. I play all three races at about the same level and my APM is the highest with Zerg. Its a little bit lower with Terran and far lower with Toss. IMHO Zerg requires more inaccurate easy repetitive actions that do not require the same accuracy as the tasks preformed by the other races. Creep spreading, ling and ovi scouting, injecting, army movement and even building and worker management requires less pixel accurate clicks then with the other races. In the end a player will have a higher APM count as Zerg without necessarily playing faster or investing more attention. This is just an example to demonstrate why APM alone without looking at the play has a rather low information value. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 17 2013 18:05 submarine wrote: WHAT? If you had invested that time into doing the right thing instead of the wrong thing faster you would be in diamond now instead of Gold. Your existence proofs very well that APM alone is not very important. There are PRO players with less APM then you. You should reevaluate your priorities. The number alone says very little. IF you look at pro replays, some of them have the habit to issue move commands several times. Others put effort into every single action and make fewer more accurate clicks. Often you can do more with less AMP and more accuracy. I play all three races at about the same level and my APM is the highest with Zerg. Its a little bit lower with Terran and far lower with Toss. IMHO Zerg requires more inaccurate easy repetitive actions that do not require the same accuracy as the tasks preformed by the other races. Creep spreading, ling and ovi scouting, injecting, army movement and even building and worker management requires less pixel accurate clicks then with the other races. In the end a player will have a higher APM count as Zerg without necessarily playing faster or investing more attention. This is just an example to demonstrate why APM alone without looking at the play has a rather low information value. If I just increase my APM, I should be diamond in no time. I think the results speak for themselves, because I went up in rank. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On June 17 2013 18:08 ninazerg wrote: If I just increase my APM, I should be diamond in no time. I think the results speak for themselves, because I went up in rank. Either my irony-detection has failed me or you are a lost cause. GLHF | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 17 2013 18:08 ninazerg wrote: If I just increase my APM, I should be diamond in no time. I think the results speak for themselves, because I went up in rank. No you improved a skill level and your APM increased as a result to your increase in skill, also what the hell are you doing with that 200 apm if you're in gold? 0.o You seem to think APM = Skill, which it doesn't, there is a correlation but definitely no causation, I've lost to players with half the APM I have and it was totally fair enough, they outplayed me. | ||
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