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On June 06 2013 09:22 FatkiddsLag wrote:
" Think of it in terms of showing a pitchers pitch speed in baseball, showing a players serve speed in tennis, or showing a wide receivers 40 yard dash time in football.
This is exactly why I agree with you. I love seeing the raw tangible metrics that shows something about the level of competition.
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On June 06 2013 09:44 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 09:33 Mortal wrote:What exactly is the point of this thread? It doesn't sound like you're breeding discussion, more of just trying to make another "eSports as a real sport?" thread. APM in and of itself doesn't matter unless it's useful (see innovation). also, this If Starcraft is going to grab an audience outside the gaming world it needs something that regular people can compare to. APM should be that bridge. is not correct at all. Actually one of the things that connects RTS/sc2 players and the outside world is APM. If I tell my mom "Hey I am 800 pts on the korean ladder" She will have no idea what I'm talking about. While if I tell her I can perform over 100 actions per minute. She can understand that doing 2 things every second the whole game is actually hard. Same idea as MPH in NASCAR etc... While they not be important once you have a deep understanding of the sport, they help connect the layman.
I think this is a great example. Going 200 mph is the thing that really grabs the attention of people who don't know much about NASCAR. When in reality of it, the speed is a very small part compared to driving ability.
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APM is just how quickly your fingers move. I think that STX had a played called herO (NOT the Liquid one) and he had one of the highest APMs ever and yet he never did that well in anything (or at least not as well as you'd expect ~500 APM to do). I mean, it's important because you can multitask better with it (theoretically) but it doesn't indicate THAT much does it?
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On June 06 2013 10:21 FatkiddsLag wrote:
I think this is a great example. Going 200 mph is the thing that really grabs the attention of people who don't know much about NASCAR. When in reality of it, the speed is a very small part compared to driving ability.
I think it's kind of the same thing as NASCAR where people don't know much about racing (like me) look at mileage at face value and just assume, "Wow, this guy is driving fast; he must be good!" I kind of feel that being the same way as Starcraft where people look at APM and assume that higher APM equates to a higher skill level, where people know here that necessarily isn't the case.
I think of it kind of like running. You don't necessarily win by running faster, but how well you allocate your energy into doing whatever it is you want to accomplish in the competition. In SC2 sense, as long as the APM matches what you're trying to accomplish, then it's fine.
That being said, I think macroing doesn't require high APM, but macroing and doing something like good army splits or controlling Phoenixes will demand a lot more of your APM to make use of them.
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On June 06 2013 10:33 IntoTheheart wrote:
APM is just how quickly your fingers move. I think that STX had a played called herO (NOT the Liquid one) and he had one of the highest APMs ever and yet he never did that well in anything (or at least not as well as you'd expect ~500 APM to do). I mean, it's important because you can multitask better with it (theoretically) but it doesn't indicate THAT much does it?
And this is exactly what the OP is talking about. A SC2 newbie can understand the meaning of apm and moving your fingers extremely quickly, while he won´t ever comprehend why that particular gateway pressure opening was so effective vs the zerg who delayed his upgrades.
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I think they avoid showing the APM too much because while we can drool over how high the numbers get sometimes, the APM won't usually be the deciding factor in battles nor will it be an important piece of information in the big picture that is the game. Many times, particularly in foreign tournaments, the observer can't capture/display all the action or information that's happening at any given time. We wouldn't want to tax observer APM more than it already is taxed by the level of the players they're trying to keep up with.
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On June 06 2013 10:04 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +That speed and beauty is not something that can be conveyed with a number. APM as a number reading loses the personal identity which makes the physical expression of the game so beautiful. A player may be listed as having high APM... False, a players redundancy(ineffective actions / all actions * 100 % = (APM - EAPM) / APM * 100%) is a pretty good indicator of how clean someone plays. The Wol replays of flash and liquid sea had something crazy(in sc2 gears) of 180 eapm and ~25% redundancy. Those aren't numbers that the average joe can just obtain.
EAPM is still an arbitrary reading. In eliminating what you'd call "redundant actions," you are also eliminating the vast majority of cycling, boxing, and maintenance actions. A number does not convey the unique mechanical signature of a player. It does not convey HOW (the means by which) Flash is able to play so precisely. It does not convey his multitask, or cycling abilities. It does not convey how he personally chooses to box and spread, his hotkey patterns, how fast his screen cycles...
That speed and beauty is not something that can be conveyed with a number. It does not convey a player's personal mechanical identity. APM is only a general indicator.
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APM is fairly meaningless. Even between races Zerg is naturally higher and protoss smaller. I play a management style, mid-masters on Korea with 80-90 apm and often beat players with well over double. It's a lot like penis size, it's more about how you use it.
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Even though I don't like APM, and don't think it should be shown because that would just distract from the action going on screen, what I would like is for casters to show the game from the player's perspective more often. It is almost impossible to tell what is going on when watching a third party cam, while watching from first person you can feel the momentum of the units and how much they're struggling to keep their economy going because an attack is coming at a critical timing and how much they have to stretch to click all over the screen.
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I mostly agree but keep in mind a big reason why the in game APM hasn't been used as much is because of how broken the meter has been. I think it actually shows real APM ever seen the most recent change but I'm not sure.
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Bisutopia19270 Posts
I'm curious how you can find APM so important when your name clearly has it out for  JulyZerg, who is famously known for his high APM.
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On June 06 2013 11:09 BisuDagger wrote:I'm curious how you can find APM so important when your name clearly has it out for JulyZerg, who is famously known for his high APM.
LOL. Wow, wow, wow.
Nice of you to stop on by <3.
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On June 06 2013 09:45 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 09:42 Exarl25 wrote:
Not everyone views APM positively. Some say it doesn't mean anything, it's all spam, players just play fast to show off. If this thread gets enough replies you will probably see that perspective pop up. And I have also come across people who are not familiar with high level SC2 who hear about the whole APM thing and as a result just blow the game off as not a strategy game, but a "click fest" where strategy doesn't matter and it's just the guy with the fastest hands who wins.
Bringing up APM doesn't score points with everyone. It's a measurement that is very prone to being misunderstood. That's because a majority of the APM is worthless. It's idle APM. The only APM that matters if you even want to look at this terrible stat is spike apm in fights. No, you don't need 200 apm to build units and check your upgrades. I play with roughly 100 sometimes lower in mid masters. SC2 is a much more twitch/reaction during the fight game as compared to broodwar so you get extremely high spikes of apm which might mean something but apm over the game doesn't mean jack.
well, stop playing protoss and you'll notice that sub 100apm isnt good enough for masters =)
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Looking at APM and comparing it to a player's displayed gameplay says a lot about the him. A low APM player who still wins displays strategic strength, but is limiting his range of styles. A high APM player who gets mediocre results is either playing inefficiently or is lacking on the mental aspects.
I think since there's a soft cap on how fast a player can think and act coherently, the APM counter doesn't distinguish between players who operate around that range. In short, APM deserves a line in post-game statistics, nothing more.
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On June 06 2013 09:36 GudulesmSC2 wrote:
I agree with the fact that it does grab newcomers attention when you explain to them how fast a player can play, but if I don't know much about SC2 or RTS in general, I'm not gonna watch a few games just because some players have insane APM. It's neat as an idea to toy with, something to think about and go "woooow..." but that's about it.
APM is a part a player's skill, but that's about it. Let's use an analogy : in a game of football (or soccer), some players do rely on their great pace, but you will never watch a game thinking "omg, these players run soo quickly that's amazing, what a feat".
You wouldn't even think about how phisically demanding the match is to them. You don't watch the game for their athletic abilities, but for the excitement of the game, the good plays, the fuck-ups, the drama.
I don't think a bigger focus on APM would make SC2 matches more entertaining for newcomers or neophytes.
My 2 cents.
This is a pretty good analogy.
APM is a cool way of showing how not everyone can do what these guys do, but not much else, and it certainly isn't going to be a bridge between eSports and normal sports. It's just a feature of the game. Not that important.
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I prefer what OGN does (or used to do?) where they would briefly show the in-game view of the players from time to time, and you could see how fast they were. To me this is more impressive and more entertaining than just a number.
It's better to focus on providing an entertaining product than to dumb down the product for alternative audiences.
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On June 06 2013 10:52 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 10:04 kill619 wrote:That speed and beauty is not something that can be conveyed with a number. APM as a number reading loses the personal identity which makes the physical expression of the game so beautiful. A player may be listed as having high APM... False, a players redundancy(ineffective actions / all actions * 100 % = (APM - EAPM) / APM * 100%) is a pretty good indicator of how clean someone plays. The Wol replays of flash and liquid sea had something crazy(in sc2 gears) of 180 eapm and ~25% redundancy. Those aren't numbers that the average joe can just obtain. EAPM is still an arbitrary reading. In eliminating what you'd call "redundant actions," you are also eliminating the vast majority of cycling, boxing, and maintenance actions. A number does not convey the unique mechanical signature of a player. It does not convey HOW (the means by which) Flash is able to play so precisely. It does not convey his multitask, or cycling abilities. It does not convey how he personally chooses to box and spread, his hotkey patterns, how fast his screen cycles... That speed and beauty is not something that can be conveyed with a number. It does not convey a player's personal mechanical identity. APM is only a general indicator.
that's just a incorrect approach to measuring eapm then,
of course you can capture relevant information from the data, skill isn't something ethereal that can't be reflected by numerical data. it is definitely possible to predict who is better than who from pure numerical data. it is done in professional sports -- it can be done with sc, it's just mostly a waste of time to do so.
EAPM/APM is not by itself an amazing predictor of skill of course, but I would guess that it has decent positive correlation with how good the player is though.
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On June 06 2013 11:29 BuddhaMonk wrote:
I prefer what OGN does (or used to do?) where they would briefly show the in-game view of the players from time to time, and you could see how fast they were. To me this is more impressive and more entertaining than just a number.
It's better to focus on providing an entertaining product than to dumb down the product for alternative audiences.
I agree, it's like the analogy someone wrote about about pitch speed in baseball, serve speed in tennis, and so on. I don't want them to shove that down by throat by keeping those numbers on screen, because they have such little importance. Good announcers will refer to those numbers once in a while. For example, on an ace they might mention that serve was 135 MPH, or on a strikeout they might mention the pitch hit 98 MPH.
The focus should be on the plays that happen on the game, not some number that really doesn't tell me much. The two people playing are both pros, so I don't care if one person have a 100 APM and the other 250 APM, whoever wins that game played that game better.
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Edit: Whoops, accidentally wrote the same as that other guy 
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While this post is advocating the display of APM to lure people into StarCraft 2 by giving a stat (a traditional sports like stat) that people can relate to and understand what going on- there is more to it. This idea has merit but what is at the real heart of this is production values. What aspects would be more interesting to regular sports people to ease their introduction into or encourage their support of SC2 – you mentioned APM. But the more stats the better APM, win loss rates on maps per race, screens per minute (as mentioned above) etc - -stats validate a sport and allows people to read into the sport more.
The production values in StarCraft broadcasts have been very substandard for the most part and there has been no attempt to standardise the approach. Every major sport has a “preferred way” it does its broadcasts. Camera angles, stats, replay options, on screen highlights all are used to add to the event- close up of players been dejected or overjoyed are used to impart the emotion and tension of a sporting contest. StarCraft broadcaster have not fully embraced all the aspects of broadcasting a sport. Regardless of the sport everyone can relate to people fighting, competing, winning or losing. StarCraft broadcasters should all.
* Cut to player cam during the match
*how awesome would it be to have unrestricted camera angles in StarCraft. (I know there is already and obs UI with greater zoom)
* Make use of picture in picture to show 2 places of action or one player face and on screen action or on screen action and what’s going on with a players keyboard etc.
* Should cut to keyboard for the “wow look at those guys hands go” moments.
* Show split screen player cams after the game.
* Overlay stats regularly in game and at time these stats are meaningful eg APM current and average, “it’s now been 15 minutes this player only loses 2% of his games if they go longer than 15 minutes”
* involve the spectators more especially in between matches. Instead of Tasteless and Artosis struggling for content. Have one of them or someone speak to the audience and get them involved.
* Work on communication between observer and commentator. There are many times in the GSL the observer is showing everyone what’s happening but the commentators miss it and a few minutes later they say something like “does he have a roach warren?” even though the observer was point to it while it was been built. Often these things happen during “down time” and the casters are talking about the games they played at high school.
* Mentions sponsor and not sponsor rivals. Look after the sponsors
None of these things are important really – StarCraft will go on and it will have its fans. But if people care about expanding it and growing its supporter base you can only do that by appealing to as many people as possible. And you can only do this through the medium that displays its content to the world and that’s its broadcasts and broadcasters. There have been some great progress in professionalism since the early days but there is still a long way to go before production standards across all of StarCraft come close to those of more traditional sports.
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EPT
