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On December 30 2012 09:19 bankobauss wrote:
i feel it would improve the game greatly if most major tournaments did a blind-race-pick before EVERY game (not just before the series). would make alot of things more exciting imo.
This would be awesome. And the games would be even more exciting, contrary to some people say. Loser would only decide to switch races if he got crushed in the previous game, and try something different rather than getting crushed again(which would be on the other hand boring).
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On December 30 2012 08:27 Wolvmatt. wrote:
Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional.
What do you mean one-dimensional?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 30 2012 12:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 08:27 Wolvmatt. wrote:
Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional. What do you mean one-dimensional?
I think he is talking about people who are arguing against letting people choose different races, saying it's one dimensional to only use one race.
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Having rules that discourage playing multiple races is so stupid. Being able to adeptly play more than one race is the pinnacle of skill. It's unbelievable that tournaments don't allow random or counterpicking... If this were unfair, then you would actually see it happen more. It's fuckin hard to play multiple races, why would you want to punish the very few people who have the skill to do so??
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It's generally allowed, but the likelihood of two people mastering two races to the extent they can race pick and going against each other is so low that it hasn't really been an issue
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On December 30 2012 01:08 merinerkongprine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 01:04 thenexusp wrote:
Question: what would have happened if Ret were to play himself? Would they be forced to play TvT or would they flip a coin to see who would play the Z in the TvZ? how does one play himself?
Idra is a good example
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On December 30 2012 12:44 ShrieK wrote:
Having rules that discourage playing multiple races is so stupid. Being able to adeptly play more than one race is the pinnacle of skill. It's unbelievable that tournaments don't allow random or counterpicking... If this were unfair, then you would actually see it happen more. It's fuckin hard to play multiple races, why would you want to punish the very few people who have the skill to do so??
The main problems comes when you have two race pickers play each other. What if one is a Terran that will switch to Zerg to play against Protoss and another is a Protoss that changes to Terran if his opponent is a Zerg. You'll end up with a cycle of the two players constantly switching.
However, if the players had to blindly pick their race before the match started, that would allow for the display of skill of multiple races while removing the issues of constantly changing races.
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Australia4514 Posts
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy 
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
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I remember in a WCG, Jaedong (in his tyrant prime) had to play this chinese (?) player and during the countdown he switched race. I think its pretty BM to do that and luckily jaedong was in his prime and he pays attention during the countdown and still demolished the guy. He also said something like "that guy played like a computer" implying hes a scrub hehe. But I think most tourney allows race switching but it shouldnt be like right before the match, it should be in a timely matter where your opponent has time to prepare (like 24 hours if possible or like an hour before the match if its a short time thing).
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I actually wonder why SC2 tournaments shouldn't allow it, though I'm not sure of the particular rules regarding it since it rarely happens. There's no reason not to allow race switching, whether it's in the middle of a tourney or a BoX. Lots of other competitive gaming communities allow race/character switching and counterpicking, why not SC2? GSL even has map counterpicking. For example, the first game would be a double blind, then loser selects map, winner has option to switch race, then loser has option to switch. If this seems unfair, then just have double blind race selections each map. Versatility should be rewarded, and certainty adds extra depth and entertainment.
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On December 30 2012 13:10 Legionnaire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent. This exact thing happened to me. I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z. It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again. This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Your fault for not preparing properly and knowing your opponent. If you are only able to win based off preparing for that specific match up on x maps then that is your own fault and you are a very very very poor player.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 30 2012 13:15 Msr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 13:10 Legionnaire wrote:On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent. This exact thing happened to me. I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z. It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again. This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior. Your fault for not preparing properly and knowing your opponent. If you are only able to win based off preparing for that specific match up on x maps then that is your own fault and you are a very very very poor player.
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life.
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On December 30 2012 13:10 Legionnaire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent. This exact thing happened to me. I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z. It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again. This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
wow that was a dick move from him :O
What happens if two players says : "I play zerg, except against zerg players where I switch to Protoss"
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On December 30 2012 13:10 Legionnaire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent. This exact thing happened to me. I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z. It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again. This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument. He has spent his time training 2 races, how is that unfair? You look at the opponent's previous matches, see if he did race switch before, and train according to your intel. Even if he seems a single-race player, you still spend 20% of time on another matchups just in case he secretly trains other races.
The competition should not only be "who spent most time practicing", but also who has ability to adapt strategy to current situation.
On December 30 2012 13:18 FromShouri wrote:
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life.
Your logic is not flawless either. This example clearly shows that the player lacked a quite important, at least in my opinion, skill.
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Why are people who haven't competed at pro level in Korea are trying to give Legionnaire some lessons ?
wtf is happening here ?????
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On December 30 2012 12:42 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 12:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 30 2012 08:27 Wolvmatt. wrote:
Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional. What do you mean one-dimensional? I think he is talking about people who are arguing against letting people choose different races, saying it's one dimensional to only use one race.
Ah I see, thought he meant playing more than 1 race was one-dimensional ^^
On December 30 2012 13:21 Tommyth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 13:10 Legionnaire wrote:On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent. This exact thing happened to me. I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z. It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again. This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior. Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument. He has spent his time training 2 races, how is that unfair? You look at the opponent's previous matches, see if he did race switch before, and train according to your intel. Even if he seems a single-race player, you still spend 20% of time on another matchups just in case he secretly trains other races. The competition should not only be "who spent most time practicing", but also who has ability to adapt strategy to current situation. Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 13:18 FromShouri wrote:
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life. Your logic is not flawless either. This example clearly shows that the player lacked a quite important, at least in my opinion, skill.
Because if he announced that he was playing P, he should stick to it. Otherwise, it's not an official announcement. By announcing something (stating something "officially") it's supposed to be taken as something that will come true. It's like if a tournament announced that the Grand Finals would be on a certain date a week before, but right on the day of the finals, they say "Nevermind, we're delaying it".
In that situation would you say the people who were preparing to watch it on that day were inflexible? They are supposed to take their word for it unless they want their reliability to decrease.
So what the argument is that it's not really an announcement if he doesn't have to stick with it. It's like what you're saying is that everyone should consider that they might change their race on the day of the match, and that you should spend time looking at their match history and also practice against the other 2 races. But what if the other player considers that you might race change on the same day, but he takes the risk by practicing only against the race you announced and not the others, therefore giving him an advantage? It's the same situation with ggon switching races. He could have just done that to lie, and was practicing against one race the whole time, planning to change races the last day just to mess his opponent up.
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LOL at random forum people insulting one of the greatest foreign e-sports icons EVER.
Just sit there insulting him guys. A guy race switching first and 2nd game even after saying he would play z second game is bad mannered and bullshit. Everyone might as well just say they are random and pick race with 2 seconds left on the count down timer.
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On December 30 2012 13:21 Tommyth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 13:10 Legionnaire wrote:On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent. This exact thing happened to me. I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z. It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again. This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior. Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument. He has spent his time training 2 races, how is that unfair? You look at the opponent's previous matches, see if he did race switch before, and train according to your intel. Even if he seems a single-race player, you still spend 20% of time on another matchups just in case he secretly trains other races. The competition should not only be "who spent most time practicing", but also who has ability to adapt strategy to current situation. Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 13:18 FromShouri wrote:
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life. Your logic is not flawless either. This example clearly shows that the player lacked a quite important, at least in my opinion, skill.
Thats not really the point though. It's the disadvantage going into a tournament where two people prepare for the opponent based on fixed races and maps and the other gains an advantage by nullifying 2/3 of that players preparation by simply saying something. I don't see the point in going down the over-the-top obvious low road trying to argue that legionnaire should have just adjusted to the new match-up. It really has nothing to do with anything.
Allowing this gives credence to a ton of other things that abuse an opponent outside of the game. Like, should everyone really just start announcing ambiguity in their race before the final moment of each match? Headlines for the next tournament: Jaedong vs Flash ?vs? -- who the fuck knows which race they'll play they're both mindgaming the other that they'll finally switch race on a map for the first time ever. Should CombatEX be allowed to BM relentlessly ingame to throw an opponent off? How far does this go? Lol.
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On December 30 2012 13:21 Tommyth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 13:10 Legionnaire wrote:On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote:
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent. This exact thing happened to me. I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z. It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again. This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior. Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument.
It's a very cheap trick, nothing wrong with it per-se but I see it as poor sportsmanship and reflects badly on the other player. It's like serving in tennis when it's obvious your opponent isn't ready. Sure you don't have to wait for them and you can probably score an easy point by doing it, still doesn't take away from the fact that you're a bit of a shit for trying it.
The fact that the guy apologised, said he'd switch back and again went back on his word just makes him come across as some lack-luster pro who has to rely on cheap tricks to score wins.
On December 30 2012 13:24 Diks wrote:
Why are people who haven't competed at pro level in Korea are trying to give Legionnaire some lessons ?
wtf is happening here ?????
^ Also this
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On December 30 2012 00:46 Asterion wrote:
My guess is that it could be abused seeing how most pros have pretty decent offraces too. So if you prepare against race A but all of a sudden have to play race B it will mean a big advantage for the opponent because he has a build order prepared and you just have to make one up on the fly. So while in a macro game the player with the main race would most likely win, being thrown off his build order could lose him the game vs some kind of all-in that the other player can prepare specifically.
That's definitely the main reason to forbid it. It's unfair in terms of preparation. In a LAN setting where preparation is not an issue and the game is more a matter of raw skill, then the player who switch races is at a disadvantage, so it's usually allowed. For the above example, it's definitely abuse because he said he was picking Protoss. You shouldn't be allowed to announce your race then change it, but on the other hand you don't need to announce your race if you don't HAVE to stick to it. It's a matter of specific tournament rules.
Besides as mentioned I'd like to actually see someone succeed as random or as a known race-switcher.
Overall I think this isn't an issue, whether they allow it or not only matters for low level tournaments and it's not really in the favor a player to switch race.
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EPT
