On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Yup the nobodies who spout utter stupidity.
The fact he called legionare a "super super poor player if you have to rely on preparing" is so lol worthy. If you prepare on 1 map for 1 week for 1 match up, your other match ups are obviously not going to be as good.
Sigh those kind of posts just make me face palm.
Exactly, I hope he's being sarcastic but i don't think he was. If Legionnaire wasn't a progamer, I would come up with an example such as a player in a GSL Finals switching race the day before the match, and the one who prepared for the whole ~3 weeks against that one specific MU on X maps is a very very very poor player. But Legionnaire's a progamer so we already have a good example to show how silly that kind of argument is.
I think people are talking about two different kinds of "race switching" -- there's the kind where you switch race right before a game, unannounced, in a situation where there is normally lots of preparation (which most people seem to be against) and the kind where you can switch races between rounds (or whatever), provided you announce it far enough in advance if it's a tournament like the GSL.
The only argument why race switching shouldn't be allowed in weekend tournaments like MLG is that if someone like Morrow ends up playing someone like himself, but that's rare enough to not really matter (and if it ever becomes common enough that it does matter, then multi-racing will be so common that having to practice more than three matchups might be seen as normal.)
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
Player A: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player B: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player C: Random player. Player D: Terran Player E: Zerg ( can offrace P)
A vs B: Admins would declare the winner by giving one guy the race he wants. So to be fair they have to : Throw a coin who wins or force them to play a e.g. TvsT In frist case we dont even have a game and in second its no fun to watch.
A vs C: C now announce he playes TvZ , ZvP, PvT not random! Admin force another match-up that C will win 100% of the time.
D vs C: C looks at D winratio and take the race he have biggest problems against.
C vs E: C playes P because E is bad in Zvp. However E knows that and pick protoss himself because he knows E is bad in PvsP. C however think that E will do that and takes his best race T to win the T vs offrace Protoss. However E count on that and instead annouce he playes Z because ZvsT is his best matchup!
TLDR: Big cluster fuck! Mindgame what the other one picks, is more important than playing sc2... Long term everyone have to know all match-ups and we will see only random players.
On December 30 2012 15:54 skeldark wrote: Player A: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player B: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player C: Random player. Player D: Terran Player E: Zerg ( can offrace P)
A vs B: Admins would declare the winner by giving one guy the race he wants. So to be fair they have to : Throw a coin who wins or force them to play a e.g. TvsT In frist case we dont even have a game and in second its no fun to watch.
A vs C: C now announce he playes TvZ , ZvP, PvT not random! Admin force another match-up that C will win 100% of the time.
D vs C: C looks at D winratio and take the race he have biggest problems against.
C vs E: C playes P because E is bad in Zvp. However E knows that and pick protoss himself because he knows E is bad in PvsP. C however think that E will do that and takes his best race T to win the T vs offrace Protoss. However E count on that and instead annouce he playes Z because ZvsT is his best matchup!
TLDR: Big cluster fuck! Mindgame what the other one picks, is more important than playing sc2... Long term everyone have to know all match-ups and we will see only random players.
That's why the only system working I can think of would be blind pick, when you pick your race not knowing what ur opponent race is going to be.
And, yea, maybe it would make no sense in tournaments where games are announced week before. But during big live events, I believe it would make the experience more fun and diverse for spectactors.
Race switching would lead to more 'mindgames', sure, but that's not necessarily better. It just increases the variance even more, and people are already complaining about not enough consistency among top players. Game quality would be worse because preparation would necessarily be distributed among many possible map/race combinations rather than a few. It's a stupid idea.
If there was any justice in this world the people who were assholes to Legionnaire would be banned. Too many amateurs who think they understand the game at a level that they really don't, and are quick to criticize or argue with professionals who actually do.
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Most professional sc2 players post nonstop nonsense and bullshit on TL.
If you cant handle criticize by random nobodies, you should not come on this website!
In the end, this random nobodies are 99% of TL. Its not like TL should be thankful that there are pros here. Pros should be thankful that there are random nobodies here, that makes it possible they are pros. Most of them are stupid because most people are. If you cant handle that, you should not go on a internet forum or leave your house. Sure a bad post is a bad post, but it does not make it any worse that the guy he quotes is good in sc2...
so, if lionel messi went to a football clinic, for free, to do some coaching and give some advice, and you, a "random nobody" come up to him and criticise him on how he plays, that he should really give a fuck about what you say?
should the people at the free football clinic be thankful for what he does? abso-fucking-lutely.
even if there are no "random nobodies" there, he is still the best football player in the world, regardless of whether you are there or not.
of course you have the right to criticise his play, but it makes you look very very very dumb. i guess most people indeed are stupid....
On December 30 2012 15:54 skeldark wrote: Player A: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player B: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player C: Random player. Player D: Terran Player E: Zerg ( can offrace P)
A vs B: Admins would declare the winner by giving one guy the race he wants. So to be fair they have to : Throw a coin who wins or force them to play a e.g. TvsT In frist case we dont even have a game and in second its no fun to watch.
A vs C: C now announce he playes TvZ , ZvP, PvT not random! Admin force another match-up that C will win 100% of the time.
D vs C: C looks at D winratio and take the race he have biggest problems against.
C vs E: C playes P because E is bad in Zvp. However E knows that and pick protoss himself because he knows E is bad in PvsP. C however think that E will do that and takes his best race T to win the T vs offrace Protoss. However E count on that and instead annouce he playes Z because ZvsT is his best matchup!
TLDR: Big cluster fuck! Mindgame what the other one picks, is more important than playing sc2... Long term everyone have to know all match-ups and we will see only random players.
That's why the only system working I can think of would be blind pick, when you pick your race not knowing what ur opponent race is going to be.
And, yea, maybe it would make no sense in tournaments where games are announced week before. But during big live events, I believe it would make the experience more fun and diverse for spectactors.
i dont see how all it would mean for me is i have no idea which games i want to watch because i have no idea when the zergs are playing and the zergs who are playing may not actually be zerg
i watch tournaments to watch pros play the race they know how to play not watch there crappy off race
I think Day9 in daily 100 talked about a pro match he played in his earlier years when someone raceswapped in the early days of BW. I think he said it was Xellos? I don't actually remembered but I do know that race swapping is a known thing and so is MU picking. Though one reason why tourneys don't allow that is because it makes everything haphazard. If you prepare your TvT because you are playing against a foreign terran, but then that terran says that he race picks zerg last minute, all your preparation gets foiled by a really cheap trick. That said I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed if the person were to tell before hand that he/she plans to race pick and gives the race MU's they plan to pick.
On December 31 2012 02:16 docvoc wrote: I think Day9 in daily 100 talked about a pro match he played in his earlier years when someone raceswapped in the early days of BW. I think he said it was Xellos? I don't actually remembered but I do know that race swapping is a known thing and so is MU picking. Though one reason why tourneys don't allow that is because it makes everything haphazard. If you prepare your TvT because you are playing against a foreign terran, but then that terran says that he race picks zerg last minute, all your preparation gets foiled by a really cheap trick. That said I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed if the person were to tell before hand that he/she plans to race pick and gives the race MU's they plan to pick.
it is allowed as long as you let them know, Morrow always played only ZvT ZvP and TvZ and entered in many tournaments (including GSL)
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Most professional sc2 players post nonstop nonsense and bullshit on TL.
If you cant handle criticize by random nobodies, you should not come on this website!
In the end, this random nobodies are 99% of TL. Its not like TL should be thankful that there are pros here. Pros should be thankful that there are random nobodies here, that makes it possible they are pros. Most of them are stupid because most people are. If you cant handle that, you should not go on a internet forum or leave your house. Sure a bad post is a bad post, but it does not make it any worse that the guy he quotes is good in sc2...
so, if lionel messi went to a football clinic, for free, to do some coaching and give some advice, and you, a "random nobody" come up to him and criticise him on how he plays, that he should really give a fuck about what you say?
should the people at the free football clinic be thankful for what he does? abso-fucking-lutely.
even if there are no "random nobodies" there, he is still the best football player in the world, regardless of whether you are there or not.
of course you have the right to criticise his play, but it makes you look very very very dumb. i guess most people indeed are stupid....
Your comparison is actually very bad. The situation is more like Messi saying players shouldnt swap their positions during match, cause he played one when his trainer put him into defense line after first half, he made lots of mistakes and his team eventually lost.
If that happened, Messi would clearly have shown lack of defensive skills. That's logical, and that's not even criticism, but a fact. I never insulted Legionnaire, nor do I consider him as a bad player, it's actually opposite. But still he lost the match, and in that single situation did not show adaptability skill. Whether this is important or not is another discussion.
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Most professional sc2 players post nonstop nonsense and bullshit on TL.
If you cant handle criticize by random nobodies, you should not come on this website!
In the end, this random nobodies are 99% of TL. Its not like TL should be thankful that there are pros here. Pros should be thankful that there are random nobodies here, that makes it possible they are pros. Most of them are stupid because most people are. If you cant handle that, you should not go on a internet forum or leave your house. Sure a bad post is a bad post, but it does not make it any worse that the guy he quotes is good in sc2...
so, if lionel messi went to a football clinic, for free, to do some coaching and give some advice, and you, a "random nobody" come up to him and criticise him on how he plays, that he should really give a fuck about what you say?
should the people at the free football clinic be thankful for what he does? abso-fucking-lutely.
even if there are no "random nobodies" there, he is still the best football player in the world, regardless of whether you are there or not.
of course you have the right to criticise his play, but it makes you look very very very dumb. i guess most people indeed are stupid....
Your comparison is actually very bad. The situation is more like Messi saying players shouldnt swap their positions during match, cause he played one when his trainer put him into defense line after first half, he made lots of mistakes and his team eventually lost.
If that happened, Messi would clearly have shown lack of defensive skills. That's logical, and that's not even criticism, but a fact. I never insulted Legionnaire, nor do I consider him as a bad player, it's actually opposite. But still he lost the match, and in that single situation did not show adaptability skill. Whether this is important or not is another discussion.
"well Messi is awful, Barca lost cus after he was put in the goalie spot they conceded three goals!"
On December 30 2012 01:33 Sumahi wrote: I've always been surprised that there hasn't been more switching of races amongst pros. For example, given the way that so many talk about Zerg being overpowered and Terran being weak, I was a bit surprised we didn't see any players switch to Zerg.
I'm not that surprised. Considering how often Blizzard patches the game, you wouldn't want to change and then have your new race nerfed/old race buffed. And the amount of training with one race is huge.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I'm almost certain I saw Guineapig play some random televised GSL matches.
He played the qualifiers with random, but not in the main GSL.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
This used to be what happened when someone switched race against someone that's decent in bw:
There is no point "counterpicking" because this game is balanced enough and doesn't remotely have a big enough cast of playable factions that you can actually pick something that the other player has little experience playing against. This isn't marvel or street fighters. No matter how much you prepared your offrace for that specific matchup to catch someone offguard, the other guy would still 100% has more experience in that match up than you do because he already played that shit countless time to prepare against other people who happened to stick with their main infinitely longer than you with your offrace, and therefore very likely to be better than you.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
Like you said, there are definitely some 'in-game' advantages to playing random, however, these are overshadowed by the amount of practice required to play at the tip top level.
Take DoTA2 for example. Some of the top teams do have advantages because their players are skilled in more heros and can sometimes switch roles. This makes them more flexible and harder to prepare for. However, there still isn't a team they can have all 5 players play all 5 roles and every viable hero. In theory, this would be the ultimate team in terms of being impossible to prepare for and to pick against. However, in practice, it just isn't feasible. Players will always perform better if they are able to focus on a slightly smaller hero pool and more defined roles.
There is no point "counterpicking" because this game is balanced enough and doesn't remotely have a big enough cast of playable factions that you can actually pick something that the other player has little experience playing against. This isn't marvel or street fighters. No matter how much you prepared your offrace for that specific matchup to catch someone offguard, the other guy would still 100% has more experience in that match up than you do because he already played that shit countless time to prepare against other people who happened to stick with their main infinitely longer than you with your offrace, and therefore very likely to be better than you.
Haha, yeah, I was going to bring up this example. Savior's terran was pretty good but not good enough to win against a pro's ZvT in a tournament match. I remember Gorush looking pretty pissed about Savior doing it too.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
EPT
