Hello everyone, I'm sorry if this question has already been asked (and answered), but I didn't see anything that would help answering my question for now on.
First of all, maybe I'm wrong, and if I am this topic doesn't make sense and I'm sorry, but I think most sc2 tournaments do not allow race swapping (meaning you can change your race during the tournament, or even during a BO3 or something like that). My question is why is that so ?
The only "logical" explanation I could find was that if two players couldn't find a match up that fits both of them, it would be difficult to find a way to satisfy both of them, but since it's been allowed in other RTS, I think that kind of problem could be solved.
So please, tell me if there are some reasons I haven't considered to forbid race swapping and how do you feel about it (should it be allowed/not allowed ?).
most tournaments do allow it. GSL let morrow do it, almost all western tournaments allow it. I doubt kespa ever will, but that is more a matter of tradition.
Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
My guess is that it could be abused seeing how most pros have pretty decent offraces too. So if you prepare against race A but all of a sudden have to play race B it will mean a big advantage for the opponent because he has a build order prepared and you just have to make one up on the fly. So while in a macro game the player with the main race would most likely win, being thrown off his build order could lose him the game vs some kind of all-in that the other player can prepare specifically.
Do you mean race swapping as in avoiding a certain matchup (like Ret playing ZvP ZvT TvZ in BW)? Or just players changing race at random. The latter doesn't work simply because it would be impossible for players to prepare for a matchup.
I know for sure that Morrow changed his race in the middle of at least one tournament before because he played ZvT, ZvP, and TvZ (hated ZvZ apparently).
Probable reasoning for disallowing/discouraging race swapping in the middle of bo3's is that it potentially leads to too much circular bickering about races ("well if he's switching to X, i'm switching to Y"..."if he's switching to Y, i'm switching to Z"...etc)
I have heard of tournaments disallowing people to select random as their main race, and I think that's retarded. I get that there is an obvious justification (player draws unfavorable race for the matchup/map, so he makes up some complaint and demands regame), but to crap right on the faces of players who prefer to play random is far more against the spirit of the game imo.
I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Personally, I want the more skilled person to win, so I approve of race "swapping" in tournaments. I don't want the guy who prepared his build and scouted old stuff from his opponent best, I want the naturally better player to win regardless of race.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
man gumiho used to be a random player, look at how good he is now
I understand the "You can't throw a week of preparation" argument, and I do agree that in this case you should tell the races you're going to use as long as you already know which maps you will be playing on.
My main concern is about the maps cause some (most ?) of them are not race-balanced.
Question: what would have happened if Ret were to play himself? Would they be forced to play TvT or would they flip a coin to see who would play the Z in the TvZ?
On December 30 2012 00:49 VasHeR wrote: I know for sure that Morrow changed his race in the middle of at least one tournament before because he played ZvT, ZvP, and TvZ (hated ZvZ apparently).
Probable reasoning for disallowing/discouraging race swapping in the middle of bo3's is that it potentially leads to too much circular bickering about races ("well if he's switching to X, i'm switching to Y"..."if he's switching to Y, i'm switching to Z"...etc)
I have heard of tournaments disallowing people to select random as their main race, and I think that's retarded. I get that there is an obvious justification (player draws unfavorable race for the matchup/map, so he makes up some complaint and demands regame), but to crap right on the faces of players who prefer to play random is far more against the spirit of the game imo.
^ this would never happen though. Clearly, in the example you gave, both players would switch to Z regardless of the opponent going X or Y.
On December 30 2012 01:04 thenexusp wrote: Question: what would have happened if Ret were to play himself? Would they be forced to play TvT or would they flip a coin to see who would play the Z in the TvZ?
On December 30 2012 00:49 VasHeR wrote: Probable reasoning for disallowing/discouraging race swapping in the middle of bo3's is that it potentially leads to too much circular bickering about races ("well if he's switching to X, i'm switching to Y"..."if he's switching to Y, i'm switching to Z"...etc)
I'm fairly sure MLG lets you pick race before every game, and if this situation occurs, it is decided via a blind pick, so each player picks without knowing what the other will play as.
Had no idea it was "not allowed" but people in thread said its allowed. I personally don't see a reason why not. I don't see MorroW involved with the scene much but I found his uniqueness of not liking ZvZ and playing Terran against zerg to be quite nice. I'll admit, I'm not a huge fan of watching mirror matchups except TvT. Although some ZvZs have been pretty exciting as well as some PvP. But on the ladder, I completely dislike PvP
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Yup, and GuineaPig played random for a while before settling on protoss too.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
I don't think there's a rule against it, but I believe you do have to let it be known beforehand (It's not exactly fair if you decide to become a Terran a few minutes before the match after your Protoss opponent practices nonstop for a week against Zerg). I have no idea why anybody would want to switch races between games though, it's stupid.
I've always been surprised that there hasn't been more switching of races amongst pros. For example, given the way that so many talk about Zerg being overpowered and Terran being weak, I was a bit surprised we didn't see any players switch to Zerg.
testie was pretty epic with all 3 races, if i remember good he played a televised match as random. i think its just more fair to stick up with 1 race for the opponent, and if you`re willing to play different race well i feel you should play random. i dont see why you should have the right to avoid zvz
On December 30 2012 01:26 Whatson wrote: I don't think there's a rule against it, but I believe you do have to let it be known beforehand (It's not exactly fair if you decide to become a Terran a few minutes before the match after your Protoss opponent practices nonstop for a week against Zerg). I have no idea why anybody would want to switch races between games though, it's stupid.
Let's say I'm supposed to play Terran and you're Zerg, and the map we're supposed to play on is Atlantis Spaceship. Still stupid for me to raceswap ?
On December 30 2012 00:49 VasHeR wrote: it potentially leads to too much circular bickering about races ("well if he's switching to X, i'm switching to Y"..."if he's switching to Y, i'm switching to Z"...etc)
I'm sorry sir, but I think you'll find that X, and Y are not playable races in Starcraft. ^^
On December 30 2012 01:26 Whatson wrote: I don't think there's a rule against it, but I believe you do have to let it be known beforehand (It's not exactly fair if you decide to become a Terran a few minutes before the match after your Protoss opponent practices nonstop for a week against Zerg). I have no idea why anybody would want to switch races between games though, it's stupid.
Let's say I'm supposed to play Terran and you're Zerg, and the map we're supposed to play on is Atlantis Spaceship. Still stupid for me to raceswap ?
On December 30 2012 01:26 Whatson wrote: I don't think there's a rule against it, but I believe you do have to let it be known beforehand (It's not exactly fair if you decide to become a Terran a few minutes before the match after your Protoss opponent practices nonstop for a week against Zerg). I have no idea why anybody would want to switch races between games though, it's stupid.
Let's say I'm supposed to play Terran and you're Zerg, and the map we're supposed to play on is Atlantis Spaceship. Still stupid for me to raceswap ?
Well duh. Maps are only a small part of the problem. For example GSL. Players study their opponents a lot before hand, and a number of them prepare specific builds tailored to a specific weakness they find in their opponents matchup, especially in the Bo5s. That means all that practice time is wasted if your opponent switches races, and your opponent would have been able to practice the correct matchup.
I already told what I thought about this concern. As long as you know which maps you're gonna play on, you should just tell the races you're gonna play on each map, like 1 week before.
On December 30 2012 01:26 Whatson wrote: I don't think there's a rule against it, but I believe you do have to let it be known beforehand (It's not exactly fair if you decide to become a Terran a few minutes before the match after your Protoss opponent practices nonstop for a week against Zerg). I have no idea why anybody would want to switch races between games though, it's stupid.
Let's say I'm supposed to play Terran and you're Zerg, and the map we're supposed to play on is Atlantis Spaceship. Still stupid for me to raceswap ?
Well duh. Maps are only a small part of the problem. For example GSL. Players study their opponents a lot before hand, and a number of them prepare specific builds tailored to a specific weakness they find in their opponents matchup, especially in the Bo5s. That means all that practice time is wasted if your opponent switches races, and your opponent would have been able to practice the correct matchup.
I already told what I thought about this concern. As long as you know which maps you're gonna play on, you should just tell the races you're gonna play on each map, like 1 week before.
Then yeah, it'd be fine. Not like most pros would do it anyways LOL.
To be honest, my first response was something along the lines of it ruining the opposing players preparation but lets get realistic here, if people don't have to nominate a race before the game, players should be training against everything possible, not just pigeon-holing their preparation towards one specific matchup. The more I think about it, the less I am convinced that not allowing race swapping is a good idea.
I mean, imagine GSL finals, MVP down 0-3, switches to Z or P for the amazing fightback championship win. It would create opportunities for some pretty amazing stories and in my opinion cause players to be better overall at the game rather than better at the matchups, thanks to having to be prepared for anything and everything. If players only want to practice against one race, knowing race switching is allowed then its their own fault. I don't see how the 'wasted preparation' argument is valid.
On December 30 2012 01:48 IceSlipper wrote: To be honest, my first response was something along the lines of it ruining the opposing players preparation but lets get realistic here, if people don't have to nominate a race before the game, players should be training against everything possible, not just pigeon-holing their preparation towards one specific matchup. The more I think about it, the less I am convinced that not allowing race swapping is a good idea.
I mean, imagine GSL finals, MVP down 0-3, switches to Z for the amazing fightback championship win. It would create opportunities for some pretty amazing stories and in my opinion cause players to be better overall at the game rather than better at the matchups, thanks to having to be prepared for anything and everything. If players only want to practice against one race, knowing race switching is allowed then its their own fault. I don't see how the 'wasted preparation' argument is valid.
This is pretty much my train of thought also, it would definitely show who is the better "overall" player. But I don't think a lot of pros would take the chance.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
On December 30 2012 01:33 Sumahi wrote: I've always been surprised that there hasn't been more switching of races amongst pros. For example, given the way that so many talk about Zerg being overpowered and Terran being weak, I was a bit surprised we didn't see any players switch to Zerg.
I'm not that surprised. Considering how often Blizzard patches the game, you wouldn't want to change and then have your new race nerfed/old race buffed. And the amount of training with one race is huge.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I'm almost certain I saw Guineapig play some random televised GSL matches.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I'm pretty sure the GSL allows random (they've had random players before). I just think they force you to register the race (or races in Morrow's case) you're going to use before the matches.
Probably already mentioned, but the only thing not allowed is to switch while countdown runs. They might bother if we would see it (especially with the losers choice system). And in Warcraft 3 it was quiet okay as some matchups didn't worked on a few maps for one side.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
man gumiho used to be a random player, look at how good he is now
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
Nope, GSL has always allowed for random. It wouldn't make sense for them to allow it in qualifiers but not for Code A and Code S. The reason the Gumiho picked Terran was probably because it is very very hard to play all 3 races at GSL levels. Sure, there are advantages (openers) to playing random but it is just so much more demanding. You have to play 6 matchups instead of 3. It is true that your opponent shas to practice 3 matchups, but the random player also needs to practice 3 match ups since they don't know which race they will get until they get into the game.
On December 30 2012 01:33 Sumahi wrote: I've always been surprised that there hasn't been more switching of races amongst pros. For example, given the way that so many talk about Zerg being overpowered and Terran being weak, I was a bit surprised we didn't see any players switch to Zerg.
I'm not that surprised. Considering how often Blizzard patches the game, you wouldn't want to change and then have your new race nerfed/old race buffed. And the amount of training with one race is huge.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I'm almost certain I saw Guineapig play some random televised GSL matches.
On December 30 2012 00:45 sickoota wrote: most tournaments do allow it. GSL let morrow do it, almost all western tournaments allow it. I doubt kespa ever will, but that is more a matter of tradition.
sAviOr played Terran vs GoRush/GGPlay(Can't remember) in Proleague, so it has happened. You have to announce it ahead of time though.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
Nope, GSL has always allowed for random. It wouldn't make sense for them to allow it in qualifiers but not for Code A and Code S. The reason the Gumiho picked Terran was probably because it is very very hard to play all 3 races at GSL levels. Sure, there are advantages (openers) to playing random but it is just so much more demanding. You have to play 6 matchups instead of 3. It is true that your opponent shas to practice 3 matchups, but the random player also needs to practice 3 match ups since they don't know which race they will get until they get into the game.
9 match-ups you mean. Unless you're not counting the mirrors.
as long as you set clear rules beforehand (like with morrow you know what race hes gonna be, if your Z hes T and if your not Z hes Z) but especially in the GSL being to change race without saying a thing to your opponent is just wrong becuase it removes the preparation factor that makes GSL entertaining
I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Some time ago, Nerchio did play random sucesfully in online cups. He was on a rather high level with it. TLO in the beta in tournaments.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I never heard tha GSL denied randoms, as far as I know, you can play Z, T, P or R (Random), or a combination of matchups like MorroW used to have ZvP, ZvT and TvZ, as far as GSL knows beforehand.
Switching matchups randomly and playing random is two totally different things.
I think that most pros play/practice their main race for too many hours to be as competitive with their off race. I feel like splitting your practice between 3 races isn't as proficient as practicing with one. I'll grant that Morrow pulled it off but I don't think that random players work. Plus you could see some ugly games if you don't get the map you want for the race you pick.
If there are 2 players that switch matchups (like zergs playing ZvT) it comes to a blind pick. I don't think anyone does it differently short of disallowing picking entirely.
On December 30 2012 02:11 Forikorder wrote: as long as you set clear rules beforehand (like with morrow you know what race hes gonna be, if your Z hes T and if your not Z hes Z) but especially in the GSL being to change race without saying a thing to your opponent is just wrong becuase it removes the preparation factor that makes GSL entertaining
Agreed. And I also want to know what I'm going to be watching before it starts.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I never heard tha GSL denied randoms, as far as I know, you can play Z, T, P or R (Random), or a combination of matchups like MorroW used to have ZvP, ZvT and TvZ, as far as GSL knows beforehand.
Switching matchups randomly and playing random is two totally different things.
I think picking the combination Morrow does is approved on a special case basis. Because not many players do this, it is not a big issue. But if it gets more common, we can have issues like if morrow plays someone who only plays T but plays As Z if opponent is Z. But again, having to practice 2 race mechanics is really hard at the top level so it is almost always better to focus on one race.
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
On December 30 2012 00:45 sickoota wrote: most tournaments do allow it. GSL let morrow do it, almost all western tournaments allow it. I doubt kespa ever will, but that is more a matter of tradition.
sAviOr played Terran vs GoRush/GGPlay(Can't remember) in Proleague, so it has happened. You have to announce it ahead of time though.
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Lol, they didn't have to play starcraft than. Just roll dies. Nothing as exciting as that.
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
Only tournament that doesnt allow race swapping is GSTL. Your forced to play the race your team registered you as playing. As seen when Slayers Eve played her only GSTL match and was forced to play terran even though her main race was protoss. Who ever registered the team put her as terran and she couldnt play toss in that game and was forced to all in.
I'm pretty sure it's allowed in most tournaments, but you have to let admins know the specific circumstances of your race switching before the tournament starts so that potential opponents can't be caught off guard.
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it
if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it
if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that
That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z).
It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I never heard tha GSL denied randoms, as far as I know, you can play Z, T, P or R (Random), or a combination of matchups like MorroW used to have ZvP, ZvT and TvZ, as far as GSL knows beforehand.
Switching matchups randomly and playing random is two totally different things.
On December 30 2012 01:33 Sumahi wrote: I've always been surprised that there hasn't been more switching of races amongst pros. For example, given the way that so many talk about Zerg being overpowered and Terran being weak, I was a bit surprised we didn't see any players switch to Zerg.
I'm not that surprised. Considering how often Blizzard patches the game, you wouldn't want to change and then have your new race nerfed/old race buffed. And the amount of training with one race is huge.
On December 30 2012 01:51 Eee wrote:
On December 30 2012 01:22 aintz wrote:
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I'm almost certain I saw Guineapig play some random televised GSL matches.
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it
if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that
That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z).
It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game.
Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P
the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded
no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
On December 30 2012 00:46 Asterion wrote: My guess is that it could be abused seeing how most pros have pretty decent offraces too. So if you prepare against race A but all of a sudden have to play race B it will mean a big advantage for the opponent because he has a build order prepared and you just have to make one up on the fly. So while in a macro game the player with the main race would most likely win, being thrown off his build order could lose him the game vs some kind of all-in that the other player can prepare specifically.
If that was such an advantage everyone would play random. Unless random is forbidden as well. Opponent wouldn't know what to prepare against.
On December 30 2012 00:46 Asterion wrote: My guess is that it could be abused seeing how most pros have pretty decent offraces too. So if you prepare against race A but all of a sudden have to play race B it will mean a big advantage for the opponent because he has a build order prepared and you just have to make one up on the fly. So while in a macro game the player with the main race would most likely win, being thrown off his build order could lose him the game vs some kind of all-in that the other player can prepare specifically.
If that was such an advantage everyone would play random. Unless random is forbidden as well. Opponent wouldn't know what to prepare against.
It's not the same because when you play random, you don't know what race you're going to get either, so your preparation is much more extensive and much less specific. If however you knew you were going to be facing a Protoss player and you secretly practiced your ZvP for the match even though you are known as a Terran player, you get a huge advantage when you suddenly spring the race switch on your opponent without forewarning because all of your preparation is still valid while all of theirs is a waste of time. They'd have to race switch themselves to nullify your advantage, which might prompt you to want to race switch again, and you'd end up with a big stupid circle.
Honestly I wish playing random was forbidden in all tournaments.
RvX does not result in a Starcraft 2 game, it is BS. I mean what happens if you play Protoss against Random on a big map and last scout? You have to play 4Gate proof up until you scout against what can be 3 hatch. Would be just as entertaining to see a BO3 Coinflip.
Also, ActionJesus was fun but that is enough for the next 5 years.
On December 30 2012 04:09 rEalGuapo wrote: Honestly I wish playing random was forbidden in all tournaments.
RvX does not result in a Starcraft 2 game, it is BS. I mean what happens if you play Protoss against Random on a big map and last scout? You have to play 4Gate proof up until you scout against what can be 3 hatch. Would be just as entertaining to see a BO3 Coinflip.
Also, ActionJesus was fun but that is enough for the next 5 years.
Yes, but you will be playing against someone who has to split his practice amongst all 3 races. Since we don't see any top pros playing random, we can pretty much safely say it just isn't feasible at the top level. And for your example, Zerg builds can also range from 6 pools to 3 hatch. Players will just have to adjust their openers. You will never have a build which is safe vs everything yet not put you behind against the most greedy builds economically. Because if such a build existed, it would be the only build players would do.
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it
if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that
That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z).
It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game.
Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P
the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded
no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
Not really. I am not sure how it would be abusing the rules at all. It is like tournaments allowing veto on maps. You could say it is 'unfair' that players might spend a lot of time practicing on one map and then get it veto'ed. But since players know ahead of time, then they should have practiced all the maps equally (except the ones they themselves plan to veto).
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it
if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that
That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z).
It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game.
Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P
the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded
no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
Why wouldn't he? It's not Nestea "randomly" choosing T or P anymore than it's Nestea "randomly" choosing to six pool. And it's obviously not a waste of time since it's clearly something Nestea could do. You could say that practicing against six pool is also a waste of time because of the off chance that Nestea might randomly six pool.
And I don't get what your point with Morrow vs. six pool not being auto-loss, Morrow TvT against Nestea isn't auto-loss either. Nestea isn't going to suddenly become pro Terran level TvT in six days of preparation. And if Morrow doesn't know how to play TvT at all... well honestly that's his fault. Just like how if he doesn't know how to play against a six pool (because there's no point practicing against it, since he can't just count on the off chance that Nestea six pools, right?) it's also his fault.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
man gumiho used to be a random player, look at how good he is now
also guineapig, he had quite a run in that one GSTL match, IIRC he almost all-killed a team, but barely lost to MKP (and IIRC it was something silly, he was ahead in that game)
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it
if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that
That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z).
It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game.
Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P
the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded
no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
Why wouldn't he? It's not Nestea "randomly" choosing T or P anymore than it's Nestea "randomly" choosing to six pool. And it's obviously not a waste of time since it's clearly something Nestea could do. You could say that practicing against six pool is also a waste of time because of the off chance that Nestea might randomly six pool.
And I don't get what your point with Morrow vs. six pool not being auto-loss, Morrow TvT against Nestea isn't auto-loss either. Nestea isn't going to suddenly become pro Terran level TvT in six days of preparation. And if Morrow doesn't know how to play TvT at all... well honestly that's his fault. Just like how if he doesn't know how to play against a six pool (because there's no point practicing against it, since he can't just count on the off chance that Nestea six pools, right?) it's also his fault.
It's different because you have a gameplan for a matchup, which matters a lot for your mental state outside of the game. You might have a plan such as 1 rax cc first game, cc first 2nd game, cloak banshees 3rd game, so you practice those builds against a variety of possibilities. Then you find out he changed race, and you no longer have any plan at all. If you scout a 6 pool though, you just do the variation of your current build that defends from a 6 pool, while still maintaining the same overall goal/strategy for the game.
On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote: I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it.
just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible?
Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO.
evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it
if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that
That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z).
It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game.
Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P
the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded
no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
Why wouldn't he? It's not Nestea "randomly" choosing T or P anymore than it's Nestea "randomly" choosing to six pool. And it's obviously not a waste of time since it's clearly something Nestea could do. You could say that practicing against six pool is also a waste of time because of the off chance that Nestea might randomly six pool.
And I don't get what your point with Morrow vs. six pool not being auto-loss, Morrow TvT against Nestea isn't auto-loss either. Nestea isn't going to suddenly become pro Terran level TvT in six days of preparation. And if Morrow doesn't know how to play TvT at all... well honestly that's his fault. Just like how if he doesn't know how to play against a six pool (because there's no point practicing against it, since he can't just count on the off chance that Nestea six pools, right?) it's also his fault.
It's different because you have a gameplan for a matchup, which matters a lot for your mental state outside of the game. You might have a plan such as 1 rax cc first game, cc first 2nd game, cloak banshees 3rd game, so you practice those builds against a variety of possibilities. Then you find out he changed race, and you no longer have any plan at all. If you scout a 6 pool though, you just do the variation of your current build that defends from a 6 pool, while still maintaining the same overall goal/strategy for the game.
It comes down to the question what should be players rewarded for, 30 hours of practicing one build or flexibility and adaptability.
Also, a suprise race switch would really be a suprise only once. If Nestea picked P and shown some good play with it, players should account the possibility in their training and spend 10-20% to practice XvP. Ultimately, if races swapping would be free with minimum rules (like you pick ur race blindly before map, and can't reactively change it after seeing opponent's choice), the player with better knowledge of whole game, not only his race, would be favored, and that's how it should be in my POV.
The only reason they probably let MorrW do it is because he only plays Terran vs Zerg, so Zerg players can prepare for him the same way they'd prepare for anyone. Random is just as good because neither player can be confident on what to prepare for. But I imagine players learning all 3 races to randomly pick at will would be an endless circle of trying to pick players weakest matchups
Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional.
Race switching can just be handled like fighting game character switching. Winner chooses if he wants to switch races. Then loser chooses if he wants to switch. Then the game just starts.
i feel it would improve the game greatly if most major tournaments did a blind-race-pick before EVERY game (not just before the series). would make alot of things more exciting imo.
players would prepare crafty and sneaky builds against all 3 races, instead of just 1 race. so no matter what your enemy picks, you would have different builds designed to be effective against whatever he picks
so a player who plays only 1 race, only needs to practice 3 matchups hardcore. But a player who race switches needs to practice many matchups because if morrow switches from zerg to terran, he has no garuntee that his opponent might switch to protoss and is skilled with protoss for example
of course it would be hard to do a proper blind race pick for online tournaments. but offline tournaments i see it being exciting
OF COURSE however, there are also arguments for locked race selections like the GSL/proleague has where players can focus 100% of their practice time towards a certain garunteed race.
I believe MLG does a blind race pick before the series, which imo is nice but i think blind race picks before every game would be more fun to see
and I am of the notion that player skills are highly fluctuating all the time, and if someone practices hardcore VS one race for 5days, he will be stronger vs that race than he normally is compared to practicing vs all 3 races
On December 30 2012 09:19 bankobauss wrote: i feel it would improve the game greatly if most major tournaments did a blind-race-pick before EVERY game (not just before the series). would make alot of things more exciting imo.
This would be awesome. And the games would be even more exciting, contrary to some people say. Loser would only decide to switch races if he got crushed in the previous game, and try something different rather than getting crushed again(which would be on the other hand boring).
On December 30 2012 08:27 Wolvmatt. wrote: Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional.
On December 30 2012 08:27 Wolvmatt. wrote: Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional.
What do you mean one-dimensional?
I think he is talking about people who are arguing against letting people choose different races, saying it's one dimensional to only use one race.
Having rules that discourage playing multiple races is so stupid. Being able to adeptly play more than one race is the pinnacle of skill. It's unbelievable that tournaments don't allow random or counterpicking... If this were unfair, then you would actually see it happen more. It's fuckin hard to play multiple races, why would you want to punish the very few people who have the skill to do so??
It's generally allowed, but the likelihood of two people mastering two races to the extent they can race pick and going against each other is so low that it hasn't really been an issue
On December 30 2012 01:04 thenexusp wrote: Question: what would have happened if Ret were to play himself? Would they be forced to play TvT or would they flip a coin to see who would play the Z in the TvZ?
On December 30 2012 12:44 ShrieK wrote: Having rules that discourage playing multiple races is so stupid. Being able to adeptly play more than one race is the pinnacle of skill. It's unbelievable that tournaments don't allow random or counterpicking... If this were unfair, then you would actually see it happen more. It's fuckin hard to play multiple races, why would you want to punish the very few people who have the skill to do so??
The main problems comes when you have two race pickers play each other. What if one is a Terran that will switch to Zerg to play against Protoss and another is a Protoss that changes to Terran if his opponent is a Zerg. You'll end up with a cycle of the two players constantly switching.
However, if the players had to blindly pick their race before the match started, that would allow for the display of skill of multiple races while removing the issues of constantly changing races.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
I remember in a WCG, Jaedong (in his tyrant prime) had to play this chinese (?) player and during the countdown he switched race. I think its pretty BM to do that and luckily jaedong was in his prime and he pays attention during the countdown and still demolished the guy. He also said something like "that guy played like a computer" implying hes a scrub hehe. But I think most tourney allows race switching but it shouldnt be like right before the match, it should be in a timely matter where your opponent has time to prepare (like 24 hours if possible or like an hour before the match if its a short time thing).
I actually wonder why SC2 tournaments shouldn't allow it, though I'm not sure of the particular rules regarding it since it rarely happens. There's no reason not to allow race switching, whether it's in the middle of a tourney or a BoX. Lots of other competitive gaming communities allow race/character switching and counterpicking, why not SC2? GSL even has map counterpicking. For example, the first game would be a double blind, then loser selects map, winner has option to switch race, then loser has option to switch. If this seems unfair, then just have double blind race selections each map. Versatility should be rewarded, and certainty adds extra depth and entertainment.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Your fault for not preparing properly and knowing your opponent. If you are only able to win based off preparing for that specific match up on x maps then that is your own fault and you are a very very very poor player.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Your fault for not preparing properly and knowing your opponent. If you are only able to win based off preparing for that specific match up on x maps then that is your own fault and you are a very very very poor player.
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
wow that was a dick move from him :O
What happens if two players says : "I play zerg, except against zerg players where I switch to Protoss"
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument. He has spent his time training 2 races, how is that unfair? You look at the opponent's previous matches, see if he did race switch before, and train according to your intel. Even if he seems a single-race player, you still spend 20% of time on another matchups just in case he secretly trains other races.
The competition should not only be "who spent most time practicing", but also who has ability to adapt strategy to current situation.
On December 30 2012 13:18 FromShouri wrote:
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life.
Your logic is not flawless either. This example clearly shows that the player lacked a quite important, at least in my opinion, skill.
On December 30 2012 08:27 Wolvmatt. wrote: Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional.
What do you mean one-dimensional?
I think he is talking about people who are arguing against letting people choose different races, saying it's one dimensional to only use one race.
Ah I see, thought he meant playing more than 1 race was one-dimensional ^^
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument. He has spent his time training 2 races, how is that unfair? You look at the opponent's previous matches, see if he did race switch before, and train according to your intel. Even if he seems a single-race player, you still spend 20% of time on another matchups just in case he secretly trains other races.
The competition should not only be "who spent most time practicing", but also who has ability to adapt strategy to current situation.
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life.
Your logic is not flawless either. This example clearly shows that the player lacked a quite important, at least in my opinion, skill.
Because if he announced that he was playing P, he should stick to it. Otherwise, it's not an official announcement. By announcing something (stating something "officially") it's supposed to be taken as something that will come true. It's like if a tournament announced that the Grand Finals would be on a certain date a week before, but right on the day of the finals, they say "Nevermind, we're delaying it".
In that situation would you say the people who were preparing to watch it on that day were inflexible? They are supposed to take their word for it unless they want their reliability to decrease.
So what the argument is that it's not really an announcement if he doesn't have to stick with it. It's like what you're saying is that everyone should consider that they might change their race on the day of the match, and that you should spend time looking at their match history and also practice against the other 2 races. But what if the other player considers that you might race change on the same day, but he takes the risk by practicing only against the race you announced and not the others, therefore giving him an advantage? It's the same situation with ggon switching races. He could have just done that to lie, and was practicing against one race the whole time, planning to change races the last day just to mess his opponent up.
LOL at random forum people insulting one of the greatest foreign e-sports icons EVER.
Just sit there insulting him guys. A guy race switching first and 2nd game even after saying he would play z second game is bad mannered and bullshit. Everyone might as well just say they are random and pick race with 2 seconds left on the count down timer.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument. He has spent his time training 2 races, how is that unfair? You look at the opponent's previous matches, see if he did race switch before, and train according to your intel. Even if he seems a single-race player, you still spend 20% of time on another matchups just in case he secretly trains other races.
The competition should not only be "who spent most time practicing", but also who has ability to adapt strategy to current situation.
Right so lets see, he states he'll play P, then changes last second to Z both games without any prior formal notice and you say leg, one of the greatest BW foreigners of all time is a very very very poor player? The dudes got more trophies and shit then you ever will or do. That is the dumbest logic I've ever heard of in my life.
Your logic is not flawless either. This example clearly shows that the player lacked a quite important, at least in my opinion, skill.
Thats not really the point though. It's the disadvantage going into a tournament where two people prepare for the opponent based on fixed races and maps and the other gains an advantage by nullifying 2/3 of that players preparation by simply saying something. I don't see the point in going down the over-the-top obvious low road trying to argue that legionnaire should have just adjusted to the new match-up. It really has nothing to do with anything.
Allowing this gives credence to a ton of other things that abuse an opponent outside of the game. Like, should everyone really just start announcing ambiguity in their race before the final moment of each match? Headlines for the next tournament: Jaedong vs Flash ?vs? -- who the fuck knows which race they'll play they're both mindgaming the other that they'll finally switch race on a map for the first time ever. Should CombatEX be allowed to BM relentlessly ingame to throw an opponent off? How far does this go? Lol.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument.
It's a very cheap trick, nothing wrong with it per-se but I see it as poor sportsmanship and reflects badly on the other player. It's like serving in tennis when it's obvious your opponent isn't ready. Sure you don't have to wait for them and you can probably score an easy point by doing it, still doesn't take away from the fact that you're a bit of a shit for trying it.
The fact that the guy apologised, said he'd switch back and again went back on his word just makes him come across as some lack-luster pro who has to rely on cheap tricks to score wins.
On December 30 2012 13:24 Diks wrote: Why are people who haven't competed at pro level in Korea are trying to give Legionnaire some lessons ? wtf is happening here ?????
On December 30 2012 00:46 Asterion wrote: My guess is that it could be abused seeing how most pros have pretty decent offraces too. So if you prepare against race A but all of a sudden have to play race B it will mean a big advantage for the opponent because he has a build order prepared and you just have to make one up on the fly. So while in a macro game the player with the main race would most likely win, being thrown off his build order could lose him the game vs some kind of all-in that the other player can prepare specifically.
That's definitely the main reason to forbid it. It's unfair in terms of preparation. In a LAN setting where preparation is not an issue and the game is more a matter of raw skill, then the player who switch races is at a disadvantage, so it's usually allowed. For the above example, it's definitely abuse because he said he was picking Protoss. You shouldn't be allowed to announce your race then change it, but on the other hand you don't need to announce your race if you don't HAVE to stick to it. It's a matter of specific tournament rules.
Besides as mentioned I'd like to actually see someone succeed as random or as a known race-switcher.
Overall I think this isn't an issue, whether they allow it or not only matters for low level tournaments and it's not really in the favor a player to switch race.
Players aside, how is race switching interesting from a spectator's point of view? I can think of plenty of reasons why it would be an awful thing if it was common, and can't really think of it actually making games more enjoyable to watch.
On December 30 2012 13:47 Salazarz wrote: Players aside, how is race switching interesting from a spectator's point of view? I can think of plenty of reasons why it would be an awful thing if it was common, and can't really think of it actually making games more enjoyable to watch.
On December 30 2012 13:47 Salazarz wrote: Players aside, how is race switching interesting from a spectator's point of view? I can think of plenty of reasons why it would be an awful thing if it was common, and can't really think of it actually making games more enjoyable to watch.
Why? How does it differ from any other match?
People dedicating to one race = more refined builds, more specialized game plans rather than cookie-cutter macro into deathball games; also, a lot of players like w/e players because they share the race, or enjoy watching that particular race. Also there's the whole thing with racepicker vs racepicker. Also, certain matchups would basically never be played on some maps if racepicking was a common thing; like if a certain map is perceived to be imbalanced in one race's favour, why would you even bother trying to come up with something that works on that map if you can just play a different race.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Wrong. In my opinion, you failed to show flexibility. On the other hand, he wasn't honest, as he should've sticked with the race he announced. It would be way more fair if he didn't say anything and u were left with knowledge u have to prepare for both P and Z. Again, I don't get the "ruined the preparation" argument.
It's a very cheap trick, nothing wrong with it per-se but I see it as poor sportsmanship and reflects badly on the other player. It's like serving in tennis when it's obvious your opponent isn't ready. Sure you don't have to wait for them and you can probably score an easy point by doing it, still doesn't take away from the fact that you're a bit of a shit for trying it.
The fact that the guy apologised, said he'd switch back and again went back on his word just makes him come across as some lack-luster pro who has to rely on cheap tricks to score wins.
On December 30 2012 13:24 Diks wrote: Why are people who haven't competed at pro level in Korea are trying to give Legionnaire some lessons ? wtf is happening here ?????
^ Also this
I wasn't saying it was fine what ggon did. It was a lie, an truly unfair way to gain an advantage over opponent. I was never trying to defend him.
However, keep in mind this is a tournament, probably money is on the line, and not all ppl will be honest. Again, I would expect from your tennis player to get up, and from then on keep in mind his opponent might play dirty and be more careful.
And also, nobody here is giving any lessons. Besides, I don't need to be a korean pro to rate a player, just like I don't need to be a film director to call 5-oscar movie bad, because it's MY view. You can disagree with it, you can argue with it, but you can't say I'm not entitled to have my own opinion. Moreover, I never insulted or said Legionnaire is a bad player or something like that. I said (again in my very personal opinion) that he simply failed to deliver what I'd expect from a great player in that single situation.
On December 30 2012 13:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: So what the argument is that it's not really an announcement if he doesn't have to stick with it. It's like what you're saying is that everyone should consider that they might change their race on the day of the match, and that you should spend time looking at their match history and also practice against the other 2 races. But what if the other player considers that you might race change on the same day, but he takes the risk by practicing only against the race you announced and not the others, therefore giving him an advantage? It's the same situation with ggon switching races. He could have just done that to lie, and was practicing against one race the whole time, planning to change races the last day just to mess his opponent up.
Taking risk is part of the game, which would begin even before the actual match. Nothing wrong with it for me, as long as the rules are clear, that you pick race blindly before each map. Of course there could arise some players who would try to abuse that, promising they'd stick to one race and then changing it, but I'm quite sure this trick would work only once, and also on a player that doesn't take into account that his opponent might be a dick.
On December 30 2012 14:00 Salazarz wrote: People dedicating to one race = more refined builds, more specialized game plans rather than cookie-cutter macro into deathball games; also, a lot of players like w/e players because they share the race, or enjoy watching that particular race. Also there's the whole thing with racepicker vs racepicker. Also, certain matchups would basically never be played on some maps if racepicking was a common thing; like if a certain map is perceived to be imbalanced in one race's favour, why would you even bother trying to come up with something that works on that map if you can just play a different race.
Nobody will force the players to switch races. I'm sure 95% would stick to their own. Watching "refined builds" over and over can be boring too, and I'm the one who likes a little bit of gimmicky play from time to time. Finally, I rate a player who is good in playing all races equally with a master of one race.
Taking risk is part of the game, which would begin even before the actual match. Nothing wrong with it for me, as long as the rules are clear, that you pick race blindly before each map. Of course there could arise some players who would try to abuse that, promising they'd stick to one race and then changing it, but I'm quite sure this trick would work only once, and also on a player that doesn't take into account that his opponent might be a dick.
its not a trick
if Player A and Player B are going to be playing
Player A announces hell play race A but will actually use race B, player B knows Player A has lied about this before but he doesnt know if player A is going to pick B or C so hed have to practice against both
but player A might know player B doesnt trust him so use race A anyway knowing that Player B would think hed use B or C since Player A said hed use A
in short every person would have to know every race and master every match up in order to be good but gimmicky players would be much better
since youd have to be great at all 9 match ups the most logical answer is just to cheese the shit out of your opponent
all it does is create shitty games, loses viewers, loses players (since if your not willing to play random you dont have a snowballs chance in hell) and causes the scene to collapse
theres literally no benefit to allowing unannounced race changes, it promotes cheesy all-ins, lowers the overall level of games, makes GSL completely irrelevant and a joke league (since its selling point is the preparation but you cant prepare if you dont know who your playing) would cause lots of players to just quit since they wouldnt be able to pick the race they like and just play it without taking massive disadvantages
On December 30 2012 00:45 sickoota wrote: most tournaments do allow it. GSL let morrow do it, almost all western tournaments allow it. I doubt kespa ever will, but that is more a matter of tradition.
Race switching was allowed but you had to notify at least one week in advance or something.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Your fault for not preparing properly and knowing your opponent. If you are only able to win based off preparing for that specific match up on x maps then that is your own fault and you are a very very very poor player.
Taking risk is part of the game, which would begin even before the actual match. Nothing wrong with it for me, as long as the rules are clear, that you pick race blindly before each map. Of course there could arise some players who would try to abuse that, promising they'd stick to one race and then changing it, but I'm quite sure this trick would work only once, and also on a player that doesn't take into account that his opponent might be a dick.
its not a trick
if Player A and Player B are going to be playing
Player A announces hell play race A but will actually use race B, player B knows Player A has lied about this before but he doesnt know if player A is going to pick B or C so hed have to practice against both
but player A might know player B doesnt trust him so use race A anyway knowing that Player B would think hed use B or C since Player A said hed use A
in short every person would have to know every race and master every match up in order to be good but gimmicky players would be much better
since youd have to be great at all 9 match ups the most logical answer is just to cheese the shit out of your opponent
all it does is create shitty games, loses viewers, loses players (since if your not willing to play random you dont have a snowballs chance in hell) and causes the scene to collapse
theres literally no benefit to allowing unannounced race changes, it promotes cheesy all-ins, lowers the overall level of games, makes GSL completely irrelevant and a joke league (since its selling point is the preparation but you cant prepare if you dont know who your playing) would cause lots of players to just quit since they wouldnt be able to pick the race they like and just play it without taking massive disadvantages
God I can't believe what did I just read...
It's almost always more beneficial to practice ONE race and only 3 matchups. The only situation I can imagine the race switching to be advantageous is when youre matched against a player who is absolutely dominating in a particular matchup, you did your best in 1st map but still got crushed, you have the option to try something else than providing a truly boring game number 2, when every spectator knows you're gonna lose after 5 minutes.
Taking risk is part of the game, which would begin even before the actual match. Nothing wrong with it for me, as long as the rules are clear, that you pick race blindly before each map. Of course there could arise some players who would try to abuse that, promising they'd stick to one race and then changing it, but I'm quite sure this trick would work only once, and also on a player that doesn't take into account that his opponent might be a dick.
its not a trick
if Player A and Player B are going to be playing
Player A announces hell play race A but will actually use race B, player B knows Player A has lied about this before but he doesnt know if player A is going to pick B or C so hed have to practice against both
but player A might know player B doesnt trust him so use race A anyway knowing that Player B would think hed use B or C since Player A said hed use A
in short every person would have to know every race and master every match up in order to be good but gimmicky players would be much better
since youd have to be great at all 9 match ups the most logical answer is just to cheese the shit out of your opponent
all it does is create shitty games, loses viewers, loses players (since if your not willing to play random you dont have a snowballs chance in hell) and causes the scene to collapse
theres literally no benefit to allowing unannounced race changes, it promotes cheesy all-ins, lowers the overall level of games, makes GSL completely irrelevant and a joke league (since its selling point is the preparation but you cant prepare if you dont know who your playing) would cause lots of players to just quit since they wouldnt be able to pick the race they like and just play it without taking massive disadvantages
God I can't believe what did I just read...
It's almost always more beneficial to practice ONE race and only 3 matchups. The only situation I can imagine the race switching to be advantageous is when youre matched against a player who is absolutely dominating in a particular matchup, you did your best in 1st map but still got crushed, you have the option to try something else than providing a truly boring game number 2, when every spectator knows you're gonna lose after 5 minutes.
if you spend all your time practicing one race and get demolished why would you fare any better using a second race that youve put much less time into practicing?
It's been said but just to re-iterate, for TL events we allow race picking and this is fairly common practice. For the more prestigious events like TSL it needs to be stated a few days beforehand so opponents are able to prepare but I can't remember that ever coming up except for people who were known to not play their mirror.
On December 30 2012 00:46 sushiman wrote: Some tournaments allow it if announced before the tournament starts, or at least a set time before the matches. It happened a few times in BW, but was seldom used since it hardly ever was beneficial to change your race. Changing right beforehand was not allowed because it ruined the other players preparation for the match - if you trained TvZ for a week in preparation for a match, and the opponent switched to P right before the match, that's an unfair advantage to the opponent.
This exact thing happened to me.
I was preparing for a match vs ggon, who had announced he would play P (he was a p/z player). I had a week to prepare, then on the day they allowed him to swap to Z.
It was bo3, and after he won the first game, he apologized and said he would go P 2nd game. Then changes to Z again.
This was for the top 8 of the 512 MBC amateur tournament. It was broadcast on tv. I hated that guy
Race swapping is fine in itself, as long as you announce prior.
Your fault for not preparing properly and knowing your opponent. If you are only able to win based off preparing for that specific match up on x maps then that is your own fault and you are a very very very poor player.
hahaha this is rich, are you guys aware that Legionnaire is one of 4 (maybe 5 now?) white guys to ever win a game in Proleague? And you're all randomly calling him shit, that's the most amazing thing I've read here in months. Dude had the record for most kills on a reaver in a televised game until 2010 or something.
Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
I feel that race swapping would, by necessity, degrade the quality of game accessible to viewers. By forcing players to prepare for what would essentially be triple the matchups in any given series, players would be less able to polish their play. Thus, viewers are best served by not allowing race swapping.
On another note, I can't believe people are insulting an absolutely legendary foreigner BW player. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
On December 30 2012 15:13 Velinath wrote: On another note, I can't believe people are insulting an absolutely legendary foreigner BW player. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Yeah. This is just...wow.
For the 1-3 who insulted Legionnaire, do you not who he is? Do you not realize what he's done?
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Player A: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player B: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player C: Random player. Player D: Terran Player E: Zerg ( can offrace P)
A vs B: Admins would declare the winner by giving one guy the race he wants. So to be fair they have to : Throw a coin who wins or force them to play a e.g. TvsT In frist case we dont even have a game and in second its no fun to watch.
A vs C: C now announce he playes TvZ , ZvP, PvT not random! Admin force another match-up that C will win 100% of the time.
D vs C: C looks at D winratio and take the race he have biggest problems against.
C vs E: C playes P because E is bad in Zvp. However E knows that and pick protoss himself because he knows E is bad in PvsP. C however think that E will do that and takes his best race T to win the T vs offrace Protoss. However E count on that and instead annouce he playes Z because ZvsT is his best matchup!
TLDR: Big cluster fuck! Mindgame what the other one picks, is more important than playing sc2... Long term everyone have to know all match-ups and we will see only random players.
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Most professional sc2 players post nonstop nonsense and bullshit on TL.
If you cant handle criticize by random nobodies, you should not come on this website!
In the end, this random nobodies are 99% of TL. Its not like TL should be thankful that there are pros here. Pros should be thankful that there are random nobodies here, that makes it possible they are pros. Most of them are stupid because most people are. If you cant handle that, you should not go on a internet forum or leave your house. Sure a bad post is a bad post, but it does not make it any worse that the guy he quotes is good in sc2...
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Yup the nobodies who spout utter stupidity.
The fact he called legionare a "super super poor player if you have to rely on preparing" is so lol worthy. If you prepare on 1 map for 1 week for 1 match up, your other match ups are obviously not going to be as good.
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Yup the nobodies who spout utter stupidity.
The fact he called legionare a "super super poor player if you have to rely on preparing" is so lol worthy. If you prepare on 1 map for 1 week for 1 match up, your other match ups are obviously not going to be as good.
Sigh those kind of posts just make me face palm.
Exactly, I hope he's being sarcastic but i don't think he was. If Legionnaire wasn't a progamer, I would come up with an example such as a player in a GSL Finals switching race the day before the match, and the one who prepared for the whole ~3 weeks against that one specific MU on X maps is a very very very poor player. But Legionnaire's a progamer so we already have a good example to show how silly that kind of argument is.
I think people are talking about two different kinds of "race switching" -- there's the kind where you switch race right before a game, unannounced, in a situation where there is normally lots of preparation (which most people seem to be against) and the kind where you can switch races between rounds (or whatever), provided you announce it far enough in advance if it's a tournament like the GSL.
The only argument why race switching shouldn't be allowed in weekend tournaments like MLG is that if someone like Morrow ends up playing someone like himself, but that's rare enough to not really matter (and if it ever becomes common enough that it does matter, then multi-racing will be so common that having to practice more than three matchups might be seen as normal.)
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
Player A: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player B: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player C: Random player. Player D: Terran Player E: Zerg ( can offrace P)
A vs B: Admins would declare the winner by giving one guy the race he wants. So to be fair they have to : Throw a coin who wins or force them to play a e.g. TvsT In frist case we dont even have a game and in second its no fun to watch.
A vs C: C now announce he playes TvZ , ZvP, PvT not random! Admin force another match-up that C will win 100% of the time.
D vs C: C looks at D winratio and take the race he have biggest problems against.
C vs E: C playes P because E is bad in Zvp. However E knows that and pick protoss himself because he knows E is bad in PvsP. C however think that E will do that and takes his best race T to win the T vs offrace Protoss. However E count on that and instead annouce he playes Z because ZvsT is his best matchup!
TLDR: Big cluster fuck! Mindgame what the other one picks, is more important than playing sc2... Long term everyone have to know all match-ups and we will see only random players.
On December 30 2012 15:54 skeldark wrote: Player A: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player B: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player C: Random player. Player D: Terran Player E: Zerg ( can offrace P)
A vs B: Admins would declare the winner by giving one guy the race he wants. So to be fair they have to : Throw a coin who wins or force them to play a e.g. TvsT In frist case we dont even have a game and in second its no fun to watch.
A vs C: C now announce he playes TvZ , ZvP, PvT not random! Admin force another match-up that C will win 100% of the time.
D vs C: C looks at D winratio and take the race he have biggest problems against.
C vs E: C playes P because E is bad in Zvp. However E knows that and pick protoss himself because he knows E is bad in PvsP. C however think that E will do that and takes his best race T to win the T vs offrace Protoss. However E count on that and instead annouce he playes Z because ZvsT is his best matchup!
TLDR: Big cluster fuck! Mindgame what the other one picks, is more important than playing sc2... Long term everyone have to know all match-ups and we will see only random players.
That's why the only system working I can think of would be blind pick, when you pick your race not knowing what ur opponent race is going to be.
And, yea, maybe it would make no sense in tournaments where games are announced week before. But during big live events, I believe it would make the experience more fun and diverse for spectactors.
Race switching would lead to more 'mindgames', sure, but that's not necessarily better. It just increases the variance even more, and people are already complaining about not enough consistency among top players. Game quality would be worse because preparation would necessarily be distributed among many possible map/race combinations rather than a few. It's a stupid idea.
If there was any justice in this world the people who were assholes to Legionnaire would be banned. Too many amateurs who think they understand the game at a level that they really don't, and are quick to criticize or argue with professionals who actually do.
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Most professional sc2 players post nonstop nonsense and bullshit on TL.
If you cant handle criticize by random nobodies, you should not come on this website!
In the end, this random nobodies are 99% of TL. Its not like TL should be thankful that there are pros here. Pros should be thankful that there are random nobodies here, that makes it possible they are pros. Most of them are stupid because most people are. If you cant handle that, you should not go on a internet forum or leave your house. Sure a bad post is a bad post, but it does not make it any worse that the guy he quotes is good in sc2...
so, if lionel messi went to a football clinic, for free, to do some coaching and give some advice, and you, a "random nobody" come up to him and criticise him on how he plays, that he should really give a fuck about what you say?
should the people at the free football clinic be thankful for what he does? abso-fucking-lutely.
even if there are no "random nobodies" there, he is still the best football player in the world, regardless of whether you are there or not.
of course you have the right to criticise his play, but it makes you look very very very dumb. i guess most people indeed are stupid....
On December 30 2012 15:54 skeldark wrote: Player A: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player B: TvZ , ZvP, PvT Player C: Random player. Player D: Terran Player E: Zerg ( can offrace P)
A vs B: Admins would declare the winner by giving one guy the race he wants. So to be fair they have to : Throw a coin who wins or force them to play a e.g. TvsT In frist case we dont even have a game and in second its no fun to watch.
A vs C: C now announce he playes TvZ , ZvP, PvT not random! Admin force another match-up that C will win 100% of the time.
D vs C: C looks at D winratio and take the race he have biggest problems against.
C vs E: C playes P because E is bad in Zvp. However E knows that and pick protoss himself because he knows E is bad in PvsP. C however think that E will do that and takes his best race T to win the T vs offrace Protoss. However E count on that and instead annouce he playes Z because ZvsT is his best matchup!
TLDR: Big cluster fuck! Mindgame what the other one picks, is more important than playing sc2... Long term everyone have to know all match-ups and we will see only random players.
That's why the only system working I can think of would be blind pick, when you pick your race not knowing what ur opponent race is going to be.
And, yea, maybe it would make no sense in tournaments where games are announced week before. But during big live events, I believe it would make the experience more fun and diverse for spectactors.
i dont see how all it would mean for me is i have no idea which games i want to watch because i have no idea when the zergs are playing and the zergs who are playing may not actually be zerg
i watch tournaments to watch pros play the race they know how to play not watch there crappy off race
I think Day9 in daily 100 talked about a pro match he played in his earlier years when someone raceswapped in the early days of BW. I think he said it was Xellos? I don't actually remembered but I do know that race swapping is a known thing and so is MU picking. Though one reason why tourneys don't allow that is because it makes everything haphazard. If you prepare your TvT because you are playing against a foreign terran, but then that terran says that he race picks zerg last minute, all your preparation gets foiled by a really cheap trick. That said I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed if the person were to tell before hand that he/she plans to race pick and gives the race MU's they plan to pick.
On December 31 2012 02:16 docvoc wrote: I think Day9 in daily 100 talked about a pro match he played in his earlier years when someone raceswapped in the early days of BW. I think he said it was Xellos? I don't actually remembered but I do know that race swapping is a known thing and so is MU picking. Though one reason why tourneys don't allow that is because it makes everything haphazard. If you prepare your TvT because you are playing against a foreign terran, but then that terran says that he race picks zerg last minute, all your preparation gets foiled by a really cheap trick. That said I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed if the person were to tell before hand that he/she plans to race pick and gives the race MU's they plan to pick.
it is allowed as long as you let them know, Morrow always played only ZvT ZvP and TvZ and entered in many tournaments (including GSL)
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Most professional sc2 players post nonstop nonsense and bullshit on TL.
If you cant handle criticize by random nobodies, you should not come on this website!
In the end, this random nobodies are 99% of TL. Its not like TL should be thankful that there are pros here. Pros should be thankful that there are random nobodies here, that makes it possible they are pros. Most of them are stupid because most people are. If you cant handle that, you should not go on a internet forum or leave your house. Sure a bad post is a bad post, but it does not make it any worse that the guy he quotes is good in sc2...
so, if lionel messi went to a football clinic, for free, to do some coaching and give some advice, and you, a "random nobody" come up to him and criticise him on how he plays, that he should really give a fuck about what you say?
should the people at the free football clinic be thankful for what he does? abso-fucking-lutely.
even if there are no "random nobodies" there, he is still the best football player in the world, regardless of whether you are there or not.
of course you have the right to criticise his play, but it makes you look very very very dumb. i guess most people indeed are stupid....
Your comparison is actually very bad. The situation is more like Messi saying players shouldnt swap their positions during match, cause he played one when his trainer put him into defense line after first half, he made lots of mistakes and his team eventually lost.
If that happened, Messi would clearly have shown lack of defensive skills. That's logical, and that's not even criticism, but a fact. I never insulted Legionnaire, nor do I consider him as a bad player, it's actually opposite. But still he lost the match, and in that single situation did not show adaptability skill. Whether this is important or not is another discussion.
On December 30 2012 15:01 micronesia wrote: Putting that specific ridiculousness aside, it's quite rude for an amateur to lecture a former professional when the pro is volunteering to give some insight that you would normally never have access to.
This is why pros dont post on TL anymore, because they get criticized by random nobodies =(
Most professional sc2 players post nonstop nonsense and bullshit on TL.
If you cant handle criticize by random nobodies, you should not come on this website!
In the end, this random nobodies are 99% of TL. Its not like TL should be thankful that there are pros here. Pros should be thankful that there are random nobodies here, that makes it possible they are pros. Most of them are stupid because most people are. If you cant handle that, you should not go on a internet forum or leave your house. Sure a bad post is a bad post, but it does not make it any worse that the guy he quotes is good in sc2...
so, if lionel messi went to a football clinic, for free, to do some coaching and give some advice, and you, a "random nobody" come up to him and criticise him on how he plays, that he should really give a fuck about what you say?
should the people at the free football clinic be thankful for what he does? abso-fucking-lutely.
even if there are no "random nobodies" there, he is still the best football player in the world, regardless of whether you are there or not.
of course you have the right to criticise his play, but it makes you look very very very dumb. i guess most people indeed are stupid....
Your comparison is actually very bad. The situation is more like Messi saying players shouldnt swap their positions during match, cause he played one when his trainer put him into defense line after first half, he made lots of mistakes and his team eventually lost.
If that happened, Messi would clearly have shown lack of defensive skills. That's logical, and that's not even criticism, but a fact. I never insulted Legionnaire, nor do I consider him as a bad player, it's actually opposite. But still he lost the match, and in that single situation did not show adaptability skill. Whether this is important or not is another discussion.
"well Messi is awful, Barca lost cus after he was put in the goalie spot they conceded three goals!"
On December 30 2012 01:33 Sumahi wrote: I've always been surprised that there hasn't been more switching of races amongst pros. For example, given the way that so many talk about Zerg being overpowered and Terran being weak, I was a bit surprised we didn't see any players switch to Zerg.
I'm not that surprised. Considering how often Blizzard patches the game, you wouldn't want to change and then have your new race nerfed/old race buffed. And the amount of training with one race is huge.
On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote: It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons.
pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran.
Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case.
I'm almost certain I saw Guineapig play some random televised GSL matches.
He played the qualifiers with random, but not in the main GSL.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
This used to be what happened when someone switched race against someone that's decent in bw:
There is no point "counterpicking" because this game is balanced enough and doesn't remotely have a big enough cast of playable factions that you can actually pick something that the other player has little experience playing against. This isn't marvel or street fighters. No matter how much you prepared your offrace for that specific matchup to catch someone offguard, the other guy would still 100% has more experience in that match up than you do because he already played that shit countless time to prepare against other people who happened to stick with their main infinitely longer than you with your offrace, and therefore very likely to be better than you.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
Like you said, there are definitely some 'in-game' advantages to playing random, however, these are overshadowed by the amount of practice required to play at the tip top level.
Take DoTA2 for example. Some of the top teams do have advantages because their players are skilled in more heros and can sometimes switch roles. This makes them more flexible and harder to prepare for. However, there still isn't a team they can have all 5 players play all 5 roles and every viable hero. In theory, this would be the ultimate team in terms of being impossible to prepare for and to pick against. However, in practice, it just isn't feasible. Players will always perform better if they are able to focus on a slightly smaller hero pool and more defined roles.
There is no point "counterpicking" because this game is balanced enough and doesn't remotely have a big enough cast of playable factions that you can actually pick something that the other player has little experience playing against. This isn't marvel or street fighters. No matter how much you prepared your offrace for that specific matchup to catch someone offguard, the other guy would still 100% has more experience in that match up than you do because he already played that shit countless time to prepare against other people who happened to stick with their main infinitely longer than you with your offrace, and therefore very likely to be better than you.
Haha, yeah, I was going to bring up this example. Savior's terran was pretty good but not good enough to win against a pro's ZvT in a tournament match. I remember Gorush looking pretty pissed about Savior doing it too.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
To clarify a few things, it was early on in my gaming in korea. Prior to being on any pro team. (That tournament was actually the one that caused P.O.S to offer me to join their team).
I was under the expectation that once you announced your race to the tournament directors you weren't allowed to change it. Which is what the tournament officials told us. Yet they then allowed it. (maybe something was lost in translation but i doubt it). Maybe i was also naive, being new to korea. I still think its wrong and they should not have allowed it.
The poster saying i lost due to inability to be adaptable is partly right, and very wrong. Yes if i was better i would have still won, but there is so much about mental preparation at top level gaming. (although i wasn't anywhere near that point at the time). There is a big difference between random games, compared to online tournaments (which i'd mostly consider the equivilant of random games) compared to offline tournaments, compared to tournament games vs a particular player.
An enourmous amount of ability to win tournament games comes down to refining builds on maps in preparation for games, coming from hours of thinking about what builds/counters/scouting patterns etc, all the preparations you are going to do when you see certain things. Knowing what the player is likely to do, knowing where to position armies in battles and when to retreat at certain times. Its all a mental preperation thing. Going into a match with that preparation makes you not have to think at all, as you've already done it all, and you just react, making you play a lot faster.
From going into a match completely prepared to having just a few minute notice in which you only have time to pick a random build that you've done before on the map means you are going to be playing very generic, and nowhere near at your best ability .
On December 31 2012 14:24 Legionnaire wrote: To clarify a few things, it was early on in my gaming in korea. Prior to being on any pro team. (That tournament was actually the one that caused P.O.S to offer me to join their team).
I was under the expectation that once you announced your race to the tournament directors you weren't allowed to change it. Which is what the tournament officials told us. Yet they then allowed it. (maybe something was lost in translation but i doubt it). Maybe i was also niave, being new to korea. I still think its wrong and they should not have allowed it.
The poster saying i lost due to inability to be adaptable is partly right, and very wrong. Yes if i was better i would have still won, but there is so much about mental preparation at top level gaming. (although i wasn't anywhere near that point at the time). There is a big difference between random games, compared to tournaments, compared to tournament games vs a particular player.
An enourmous amount of ability to win tournament games comes down to refining builds on maps in preparation for games, coming from hours of thinking about what builds/counters/scouting patterns etc, all the preparations you are going to do when you see certain things. Knowing what the player is likely to do, knowing where to position armies in battles and when to retreat at certain times. Its all a mental preperation thing. Going into a match with that preparation makes you not have to think at all, as you've already done it all, and you just react, making you play a lot faster.
From going into a match completely prepared to having just a few minute notice in which you only have time to pick a random build that you've done before on the map means you are going to be playing very generic, and nowhere near at your best ability .
i wonder if tehy only allowed the change because you were a foreigner
As long as you state that's the race/matchups you'll be playing when you enter the lineups/tournament then it's fine, even in proleague afaik. It's just probably going to hurt you more than your opponent unless you're equally skilled with more than one race. Ret, Morrow, Savior are the three that come to mind who did it.
On December 31 2012 14:40 Scarecrow wrote: As long as you state that's the race/matchups you'll be playing when you enter the lineups/tournament then it's fine, even in proleague afaik. It's just probably going to hurt you more than your opponent unless you're equally skilled with more than one race. Ret, Morrow, Savior are the three that come to mind who did it.
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
straight saids that they had to practice 10-12 hours minimum and most put in more then that about 19~ minutes in
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
man gumiho used to be a random player, look at how good he is now
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exageration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exageration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
You said "dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)"
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exageration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
You said "dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)"
ya and i fail to see how anything contradicts that
On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote: I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exaggeration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
You said "dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)"
ya and i fail to see how anything contradicts that
You just said you based your response on a video that says teams practiced 10-12 hours minimum and somehow ramped it up into "pro teams practiced at least 16 hours/day with 1 day break," and the example you gave out is from a champion who practiced that much before BIG matches. The other poster said you exaggerated, i agree.
We need more Z v Z no need other races ZvZ is the best matchup + best balanced matchup in whole game(Wol) all others matchups boring always same end ............. no ironic ps: switching race if u can play zerg on tournament madness pure madness!!!! .
offf topic!!! ps2: Protoss ladder 1-Protoss on the ladder mean u play zerg all day long and if u win u beat your writen destiny cause u have to lose! 2-If u accidentaly meet terran u lose cause u dont know what terran is cause u dont meet him 100 games before. 3-If u meet protoss u most likely lose if u try anything more inteligent then 4 gate .
Summary: Dont play protoss if u dont want be hospitalized cause total brain failure, where u see zerg coming from all sides and everything u do is only waste of time .........
Whenever this argument comes up, I imagine a football coach's expression when they tell him he's not allowed to use a 3-4 defense, because the other team hadn't prepared for it, expecting a 4-3 defense.
On January 01 2013 06:48 CamoPillbox wrote: We need more Z v Z no need other races ZvZ is the best matchup + best balanced matchup in whole game(Wol) all others matchups boring always same end ............. no ironic ps: switching race if u can play zerg on tournament madness pure madness!!!! .
offf topic!!! ps2: Protoss ladder 1-Protoss on the ladder mean u play zerg all day long and if u win u beat your writen destiny cause u have to lose! 2-If u accidentaly meet terran u lose cause u dont know what terran is cause u dont meet him 100 games before. 3-If u meet protoss u most likely lose if u try anything more inteligent then 4 gate .
Summary: Dont play protoss if u dont want be hospitalized cause total brain failure, where u see zerg coming from all sides and everything u do is only waste of time .........
On January 01 2013 07:14 SlimeBagly wrote: Whenever this argument comes up, I imagine a football coach's expression when they tell him he's not allowed to use a 3-4 defense, because the other team hadn't prepared for it, expecting a 4-3 defense.
It's not really similar at all, but sure
By the way everyone, theres a little something called opportunity cost. There's a reason nobody plays random anymore. Jack of all trades master of none is not a strategy that wins tournaments.
Probably the largest hurdle to it ever happening is the sheer amount of time it would take to be top notch with all 3 races all the time. You'd need someone not a pro already (because they likely wouldn't switch to random), who has a ridiculous amount of time so they can get top GM good with all 3 races and not just be a cheese factory.
That and whoever it was would have to be super super dedicated because they'd likely have to practice more then everyone else. There would be 'some' obvious advantages to it in the SC2 scene, I'm just not sure they are enticing enough to convince anyone to do it.
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exaggeration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
You said "dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)"
ya and i fail to see how anything contradicts that
You just said you based your response on a video that says teams practiced 10-12 hours minimum and somehow ramped it up into "pro teams practiced at least 16 hours/day with 1 day break," and the example you gave out is from a champion who practiced that much before BIG matches. The other poster said you exaggerated, i agree.
no i said they practiced like 16 hours a day i never said nor implied that 16 hours was the minimum amount of time they had to practice
since IdrA said most players go above and beyond the minimum its safe to say most players practiced 14-15 hours a day
There were the OGs that used to random in the very early days of BW, but they died out.
Considering some pros now spend 10+ hours practicing there literally isn't enough time in the day to get remotely good enough with even just another race to compete at the highest level.
dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exaggeration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
You said "dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)"
ya and i fail to see how anything contradicts that
You just said you based your response on a video that says teams practiced 10-12 hours minimum and somehow ramped it up into "pro teams practiced at least 16 hours/day with 1 day break," and the example you gave out is from a champion who practiced that much before BIG matches. The other poster said you exaggerated, i agree.
no i said they practiced like 16 hours a day i never said nor implied that 16 hours was the minimum amount of time they had to practice
since IdrA said most players go above and beyond the minimum its safe to say most players practiced 14-15 hours a day
Ya forgot the "at least" in there.
Not to start a flame war or anything, but if you get called out, don't drop out important words that you said when you're trying to defend yourself lol.
If I remember correctly, KeSPa does actually allow it for Proleague? Wasn't there a sAviOr (Terran) vs GoRush (Zerg) match? sAviOr announced to play Terran beforehand and it was no problem? :o
On December 31 2012 13:30 Forikorder wrote: [quote] dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exaggeration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
You said "dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)"
ya and i fail to see how anything contradicts that
You just said you based your response on a video that says teams practiced 10-12 hours minimum and somehow ramped it up into "pro teams practiced at least 16 hours/day with 1 day break," and the example you gave out is from a champion who practiced that much before BIG matches. The other poster said you exaggerated, i agree.
no i said they practiced like 16 hours a day i never said nor implied that 16 hours was the minimum amount of time they had to practice
since IdrA said most players go above and beyond the minimum its safe to say most players practiced 14-15 hours a day
Ya forgot the "at least" in there.
Not to start a flame war or anything, but if you get called out, don't drop out important words that you said when you're trying to defend yourself lol.
He said "at least" but not in the sense of "at least 16 hours." When talking about the practice habits of teams, he was saying that they practice "like 16 hours" (the point basically being the whole day is spent on Starcraft). The "at least" comes in because he was not trying to make a universal claim, but rather to say that was true at least for KeSPA teams.
On December 31 2012 13:30 Forikorder wrote: [quote] dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)
Why does the made up time that people who have never been in a Korean pro house say just get higher and higher?
I swear by the end of next year everyone will say "Oh yeah, Flash plays at least 25 hours a day."
by made up time you mean time stated by IdrA? cause thats what im basing my statements on
i remember NesTea stating in an interview hed do 16 hour days when preparing for a big match
Not sure how that supports your argument. 10-12 might be minimum and some might do more. But you said 16 hours MINIMUM and 29 days/month. I don't doubt that some might practiced 16 hours for a couple days for a big match. But I think you exaggerated when you stated "The BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month"
i never said 16 hours a day minimum considering theres only 24 hours a day and you should aim for 8 hours of sleep forcing 16 hours of practice would be a good way to run them to the ground
i said that in BW the pros practiced like 16 hours a day not that they literally practiced 16 hours a day every day but around 16 hours
it might be a slight exaggeration to say 16 hours but id imagine that 14-15 hour days (for the top pros at least) would be considered standard
You said "dude 10 hours is like taking a break, the BW teams at least practice like 16 hours a day and get one day off a month (and usually spend that day practicing anyway)"
ya and i fail to see how anything contradicts that
You just said you based your response on a video that says teams practiced 10-12 hours minimum and somehow ramped it up into "pro teams practiced at least 16 hours/day with 1 day break," and the example you gave out is from a champion who practiced that much before BIG matches. The other poster said you exaggerated, i agree.
no i said they practiced like 16 hours a day i never said nor implied that 16 hours was the minimum amount of time they had to practice
since IdrA said most players go above and beyond the minimum its safe to say most players practiced 14-15 hours a day
Ya forgot the "at least" in there.
Not to start a flame war or anything, but if you get called out, don't drop out important words that you said when you're trying to defend yourself lol.
On January 02 2013 16:09 Type|NarutO wrote: If I remember correctly, KeSPa does actually allow it for Proleague? Wasn't there a sAviOr (Terran) vs GoRush (Zerg) match? sAviOr announced to play Terran beforehand and it was no problem? :o
Yes, and he got utterly destroyed I think the only time random/race switching can work in tournaments is early in the games lifespan, before everything is incredibly worked out. I would always put my money on the guy who doesn't switch in a match, simply because if he plays with the mindset of scouting well he will always have more experience in that situation/map/build.
Although you could win the occasional game or bo3 I don't think it would be consistent enough of a strategy to pour hundreds of hours into.
EPT
ps: switching race if u can play zerg on tournament madness pure madness!!!! .
