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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 30 2012 02:19 Hiea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 01:51 Eee wrote:On December 30 2012 01:22 aintz wrote:On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote:
It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons. pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran. Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case. I never heard tha GSL denied randoms, as far as I know, you can play Z, T, P or R (Random), or a combination of matchups like MorroW used to have ZvP, ZvT and TvZ, as far as GSL knows beforehand. Switching matchups randomly and playing random is two totally different things.
On December 30 2012 02:09 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 01:58 Subversive wrote:On December 30 2012 01:33 Sumahi wrote:
I've always been surprised that there hasn't been more switching of races amongst pros. For example, given the way that so many talk about Zerg being overpowered and Terran being weak, I was a bit surprised we didn't see any players switch to Zerg. I'm not that surprised. Considering how often Blizzard patches the game, you wouldn't want to change and then have your new race nerfed/old race buffed. And the amount of training with one race is huge. On December 30 2012 01:51 Eee wrote:On December 30 2012 01:22 aintz wrote:On December 30 2012 01:15 Eee wrote:
It's allowed in all major tournaments as far as I know (GSL, DH, MLG, NASL, IEM etc.). Random is not allowed though, for obvious reasons. pretty sure gumioh played random in gsl before settling with terran. Not in the GSL, he settled on Terran when he qualified for the GSL. GSL does not allow Random since you can prepare for a matchup in that case. I'm almost certain I saw Guineapig play some random televised GSL matches. Gumiho qualifies for GSL: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2010_Sony_Ericsson_StarCraft_II_Open_Season_3
I'll just quote my previous post ^^
Gumiho was able to qualify as random.
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On December 30 2012 03:00 Kentredenite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 02:50 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:On December 30 2012 02:27 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it. just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible? Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO. evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z). It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game.
Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P
the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded
no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
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haha not a single tvz would be played anymore if switching was a common thing
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On December 30 2012 00:46 Asterion wrote:
My guess is that it could be abused seeing how most pros have pretty decent offraces too. So if you prepare against race A but all of a sudden have to play race B it will mean a big advantage for the opponent because he has a build order prepared and you just have to make one up on the fly. So while in a macro game the player with the main race would most likely win, being thrown off his build order could lose him the game vs some kind of all-in that the other player can prepare specifically.
If that was such an advantage everyone would play random. Unless random is forbidden as well. Opponent wouldn't know what to prepare against.
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On December 30 2012 03:42 Sejanus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 00:46 Asterion wrote:
My guess is that it could be abused seeing how most pros have pretty decent offraces too. So if you prepare against race A but all of a sudden have to play race B it will mean a big advantage for the opponent because he has a build order prepared and you just have to make one up on the fly. So while in a macro game the player with the main race would most likely win, being thrown off his build order could lose him the game vs some kind of all-in that the other player can prepare specifically. If that was such an advantage everyone would play random. Unless random is forbidden as well. Opponent wouldn't know what to prepare against.
It's not the same because when you play random, you don't know what race you're going to get either, so your preparation is much more extensive and much less specific. If however you knew you were going to be facing a Protoss player and you secretly practiced your ZvP for the match even though you are known as a Terran player, you get a huge advantage when you suddenly spring the race switch on your opponent without forewarning because all of your preparation is still valid while all of theirs is a waste of time. They'd have to race switch themselves to nullify your advantage, which might prompt you to want to race switch again, and you'd end up with a big stupid circle.
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Even the OSL used to have random players.
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Honestly I wish playing random was forbidden in all tournaments.
RvX does not result in a Starcraft 2 game, it is BS.
I mean what happens if you play Protoss against Random on a big map and last scout?
You have to play 4Gate proof up until you scout against what can be 3 hatch.
Would be just as entertaining to see a BO3 Coinflip.
Also, ActionJesus was fun but that is enough for the next 5 years.
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What if a player who plays ZvT. ZvP, TvZ, plays against a guy who plays PvT, PvP, ZvZ?
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On December 30 2012 04:09 rEalGuapo wrote:
Honestly I wish playing random was forbidden in all tournaments.
RvX does not result in a Starcraft 2 game, it is BS.
I mean what happens if you play Protoss against Random on a big map and last scout?
You have to play 4Gate proof up until you scout against what can be 3 hatch.
Would be just as entertaining to see a BO3 Coinflip.
Also, ActionJesus was fun but that is enough for the next 5 years.
Yes, but you will be playing against someone who has to split his practice amongst all 3 races. Since we don't see any top pros playing random, we can pretty much safely say it just isn't feasible at the top level. And for your example, Zerg builds can also range from 6 pools to 3 hatch. Players will just have to adjust their openers. You will never have a build which is safe vs everything yet not put you behind against the most greedy builds economically. Because if such a build existed, it would be the only build players would do.
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On December 30 2012 03:08 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 03:00 Kentredenite wrote:On December 30 2012 02:50 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:On December 30 2012 02:27 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it. just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible? Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO. evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z). It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game. Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
Not really. I am not sure how it would be abusing the rules at all. It is like tournaments allowing veto on maps. You could say it is 'unfair' that players might spend a lot of time practicing on one map and then get it veto'ed. But since players know ahead of time, then they should have practiced all the maps equally (except the ones they themselves plan to veto).
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On December 30 2012 03:08 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 03:00 Kentredenite wrote:On December 30 2012 02:50 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:On December 30 2012 02:27 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it. just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible? Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO. evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z). It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game. Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping
Why wouldn't he? It's not Nestea "randomly" choosing T or P anymore than it's Nestea "randomly" choosing to six pool. And it's obviously not a waste of time since it's clearly something Nestea could do. You could say that practicing against six pool is also a waste of time because of the off chance that Nestea might randomly six pool.
And I don't get what your point with Morrow vs. six pool not being auto-loss, Morrow TvT against Nestea isn't auto-loss either. Nestea isn't going to suddenly become pro Terran level TvT in six days of preparation. And if Morrow doesn't know how to play TvT at all... well honestly that's his fault. Just like how if he doesn't know how to play against a six pool (because there's no point practicing against it, since he can't just count on the off chance that Nestea six pools, right?) it's also his fault.
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On December 30 2012 00:56 X3GoldDot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 00:50 liquidoa wrote:
I am still waiting for the player who plays random on a high tournament level. That would make this game so much more entertaining. He would be the Hero of Heros. man gumiho used to be a random player, look at how good he is now
also guineapig, he had quite a run in that one GSTL match, IIRC he almost all-killed a team, but barely lost to MKP (and IIRC it was something silly, he was ahead in that game)
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On December 30 2012 07:56 Kentredenite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 03:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 03:00 Kentredenite wrote:On December 30 2012 02:50 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:On December 30 2012 02:27 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it. just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible? Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO. evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z). It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game. Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping Why wouldn't he? It's not Nestea "randomly" choosing T or P anymore than it's Nestea "randomly" choosing to six pool. And it's obviously not a waste of time since it's clearly something Nestea could do. You could say that practicing against six pool is also a waste of time because of the off chance that Nestea might randomly six pool. And I don't get what your point with Morrow vs. six pool not being auto-loss, Morrow TvT against Nestea isn't auto-loss either. Nestea isn't going to suddenly become pro Terran level TvT in six days of preparation. And if Morrow doesn't know how to play TvT at all... well honestly that's his fault. Just like how if he doesn't know how to play against a six pool (because there's no point practicing against it, since he can't just count on the off chance that Nestea six pools, right?) it's also his fault.
It's different because you have a gameplan for a matchup, which matters a lot for your mental state outside of the game. You might have a plan such as 1 rax cc first game, cc first 2nd game, cloak banshees 3rd game, so you practice those builds against a variety of possibilities. Then you find out he changed race, and you no longer have any plan at all. If you scout a 6 pool though, you just do the variation of your current build that defends from a 6 pool, while still maintaining the same overall goal/strategy for the game.
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On December 30 2012 08:07 Najda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 07:56 Kentredenite wrote:On December 30 2012 03:08 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 03:00 Kentredenite wrote:On December 30 2012 02:50 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:44 vthree wrote:On December 30 2012 02:27 Forikorder wrote:On December 30 2012 02:15 SgtCoDFish wrote:
I could see it being entertaining if both players blindly and privately announce their races before the match. E.g.
MorroW knows he's playing against NesTea, and MorroW knows that NesTea is a Zerg player, so MorroW chooses to play Terran. NesTea anticipates that MorroW will choose Terran, and also chooses to play Terran and prepares for TvT, and MorroW loses since he didn't think NesTea would race switc, and prepared only for TvZ
I'd love to see something like that happen at least once, but I very much doubt it. just once youd like to see someone abusing the rules to get free wins over there opponent in the douchiest way possible? Not really. If both players actually know that they are free to do this, then it comes down to mind games and preparing for all the match ups. It is like selecting a BO. evidently your different but most people prefer the game to be decided in game not out of it if we wanted to watch rock paper scissors we would go watch that That's absolutely no different from if Morrow prepared a specific build that only worked against hatch first (which let's say fir argument's sake Nestea has done in every game he's played ever) but then Nestea six pools. It's not like Morrow auto-loses if he plays Nestea in a TvT, if he was smart he would've known about the possibility that Nestea could've picked Terran (or Protoss) and accounted for that in his practice (he wouldn't have to practice TvT or TvP nearly as much as his TvZ, because he would know that Nestea's T and P aren't as good as his Z). It really irks me when I see the phrase "abusing the rules" (you can't abuse rules, you either follow them or you don't, there's no gray area, and in a competition, there's nothing douchey about doing everything you can within the law to win) and it really harkens back to that article about "scrubs" and competitive gaming, where scrubs complain that their opponent only wins because they do "cheap" things instead of accepting all the rules as part of the game. Morrow wouldnt waste practice time learning TvP and TvP on the off chance that NesTea randomly decided to play T and P the situation you described is ONE GAME that isnt even auto loss, but if NesTea randomly decided to be T against Morrow then you have someone whos never palyed TvT agaisnt someone who spent the last week mastering TvT they would be pretty crappy games because neither player really knows TvT enough to see amazing games, theyd be one sided games, since Morrow knows nothing about TvT and it wouldnt be worth watching at all would be completely retarded no tournament in the world would ever be so retarded as to allow such race swapping Why wouldn't he? It's not Nestea "randomly" choosing T or P anymore than it's Nestea "randomly" choosing to six pool. And it's obviously not a waste of time since it's clearly something Nestea could do. You could say that practicing against six pool is also a waste of time because of the off chance that Nestea might randomly six pool. And I don't get what your point with Morrow vs. six pool not being auto-loss, Morrow TvT against Nestea isn't auto-loss either. Nestea isn't going to suddenly become pro Terran level TvT in six days of preparation. And if Morrow doesn't know how to play TvT at all... well honestly that's his fault. Just like how if he doesn't know how to play against a six pool (because there's no point practicing against it, since he can't just count on the off chance that Nestea six pools, right?) it's also his fault. It's different because you have a gameplan for a matchup, which matters a lot for your mental state outside of the game. You might have a plan such as 1 rax cc first game, cc first 2nd game, cloak banshees 3rd game, so you practice those builds against a variety of possibilities. Then you find out he changed race, and you no longer have any plan at all. If you scout a 6 pool though, you just do the variation of your current build that defends from a 6 pool, while still maintaining the same overall goal/strategy for the game.
It comes down to the question what should be players rewarded for, 30 hours of practicing one build or flexibility and adaptability.
Also, a suprise race switch would really be a suprise only once. If Nestea picked P and shown some good play with it, players should account the possibility in their training and spend 10-20% to practice XvP. Ultimately, if races swapping would be free with minimum rules (like you pick ur race blindly before map, and can't reactively change it after seeing opponent's choice), the player with better knowledge of whole game, not only his race, would be favored, and that's how it should be in my POV.
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The only reason they probably let MorrW do it is because he only plays Terran vs Zerg, so Zerg players can prepare for him the same way they'd prepare for anyone. Random is just as good because neither player can be confident on what to prepare for. But I imagine players learning all 3 races to randomly pick at will would be an endless circle of trying to pick players weakest matchups
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Random is bullshit. You shouldn't be allowed to pick random in tournaments. However, if you want to play zerg one game and terran the next, you absolutely should be able to. I don't know why you guys want to reward players for being one-dimensional.
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Race switching can just be handled like fighting game character switching. Winner chooses if he wants to switch races. Then loser chooses if he wants to switch. Then the game just starts.
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i feel it would improve the game greatly if most major tournaments did a blind-race-pick before EVERY game (not just before the series). would make alot of things more exciting imo.
players would prepare crafty and sneaky builds against all 3 races, instead of just 1 race. so no matter what your enemy picks, you would have different builds designed to be effective against whatever he picks
so a player who plays only 1 race, only needs to practice 3 matchups hardcore. But a player who race switches needs to practice many matchups because if morrow switches from zerg to terran, he has no garuntee that his opponent might switch to protoss and is skilled with protoss for example
of course it would be hard to do a proper blind race pick for online tournaments. but offline tournaments i see it being exciting
OF COURSE however, there are also arguments for locked race selections like the GSL/proleague has where players can focus 100% of their practice time towards a certain garunteed race.
I believe MLG does a blind race pick before the series, which imo is nice but i think blind race picks before every game would be more fun to see
and I am of the notion that player skills are highly fluctuating all the time, and if someone practices hardcore VS one race for 5days, he will be stronger vs that race than he normally is compared to practicing vs all 3 races
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EPT
