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Hmm..why then TLO never loses to 7gate immortal sentry all in? Or why Bly loses so rarely to it? Coz they know how to counter it but i dont understand why dont other progamers use it....why?..
Well, in EU I have started to face TLO style more and more...
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If the cause of this discussion is the Immortal Sentry all in, then I suggest that zerg does what they suggested protoss does to beat the Broodlord Infestor late game: Just kill the opponent before they get to the tech or strategy you are trying to avoid.
I have to think the immortal Sentry all in is largely effective, because zerg has so much invested in droning and a very greedy opener, taking a fast and undefended 3rd base, often times with 2 or less zerglings. After that, teching and droning and playing greedy is punished badly. Surely there must be another method to beat the protoss strategy, it is just going to take time for some zerg to think of a way (like EGSuppy successfully did, barely) and once a method is found, the metagame will change overnight.
I used to recall an unstoppable 7 roach rush that protoss could not stop, but eventually we found a way to slow it or stop it. It's going to take time for zerg to figure out the current meta.
FF is a mechanic that is needed - otherwise warpgate and all the teir 1 and 2 units would need changing completely.
At least FF doesnt lock units in place and deal damage (oh snap....)
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Swapping the Roach and Hydralisk positions on the tech tree is key to handling forcefields.
As a properly-adjusted hatchery tech unit, the Hydralisk could be weak enough against zealots to make a Protoss aggression dangerous without having lots of forcefields.
They could also have the range to handle sentry-heavy armies. Terran doesn't suffer nearly as much vs forcefields because most of their army can shoot back when they are divided or trapped. The current Roach, on the other hand, just twitches around helplessly and explodes.
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On November 19 2012 05:28 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ? ??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get.
Curious>>>>Titan yet lost = imbalance. Right?
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On November 19 2012 05:46 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
Swapping the Roach and Hydralisk positions on the tech tree is key to handling forcefields.
As a properly-adjusted hatchery tech unit, the Hydralisk could be weak enough against zealots to make a Protoss aggression dangerous without having lots of forcefields.
They could also have the range to handle sentry-heavy armies. Terran doesn't suffer nearly as much vs forcefields because most of their army can shoot back when they are divided or trapped. The current Roach, on the other hand, just twitches around helplessly and explodes.
See that's a bandaid solution though and also creates another problem because Hydralisks also shred gateway units so easily because their DPS is so high.
It isn't a simple matter of "how can Zerg counter Forcefield better" it's a matter of changing the way Protoss works so that they can rely on Forcefield less and then directly nerfing Forcefield.
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I totally agree, right now there are three elements in the game which makes it a nightmare to balance gameplaywise.
first is the infestors ability to freeze units in their place, once it happens you can't do shit other than to see your units gets chained fungeled to death.
Second is the Protoss ability to instantly warpin units on the map from everywhere from pylons, this basically nullifies the defenders advantage and was also the TRUE reason why the amulett energy was removed for High Templars. And all the godamn PvP 4-5 warpgate bullshit. Yes, its a cool mechanic that makes protoss unique, fine let the warprism still be able to do this, let protoss warpin units close to its nexus and so forth.
Third is of course ForceFields. They are like the previous two mentioned, you really can't do anything than to hope your opponent messes up.
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On November 19 2012 05:40 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP. Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate. I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game. The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way.
Agreed, to be honest, Warp in kind of feels like Browders special little baby, people have pointed out how it breaks lategame warp in units and causes annoying as fuck pushes since a couple months after release, yet any meaningful changes have never been attempted (delaying research time is cute but not a redesign and only just slightly delays the problem), if we want to change this entire shitty toss/zerg dynamics, this is really the first thing that needs to be drastically changed.
Yet, due to it being one of Browders "Cool" ideas, I fear we will never see warpgate dissapear until Blizzard fires his ass.
It's just kind of frustrating that just when people are trying to shift the focus on the problems with Fungal, Morrows creates this rant about a literally 2 year old problem that Blizzard and quite frankly 99% of the community already know about, bad timing, especially when Zerg has been winning practically everything but WCG recently.
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On November 19 2012 05:51 Integra wrote:
I totally agree, right now there are three elements in the game which makes it a nightmare to balance gameplaywise.
first is the infestors ability to freeze units in their place, once it happens you can't do shit other than to see your units gets chained fungeled to death.
Second is the Protoss ability to instantly warpin units on the map from everywhere from pylons, this basically nullifies the defenders advantage and was also the TRUE reason why the amulett energy was removed for High Templars. And all the godamn PvP 4-5 warpgate bullshit. Yes, its a cool mechanic that makes protoss unique, fine let the warprism still be able to do this, let protoss warpin units close to its nexus and so forth.
Third is of course ForceFields. They are like the previous two mentioned, you really can't do anything than to hope your opponent messes up.
Warpgates are fixed easily, one can always add a malus for warping in units far away from an already established or currently warping in nexus. Obviously distance should be so far that protoss can warp in on the edge of their base unimpedet.
edit: not that this is the thread to discuss this...
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i completely agree with morrow, something needs to be done with the way FFs pan out, i am not sayng nerf this or buff that but ever since the game launched there has been something fundamentally wrong with FFs, even Dustin Browder said that the beta of HoTS is a good ground to do some crazy changes for testing
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On November 19 2012 05:53 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP. Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate. I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game. The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way. Agreed, to be honest, Warp in kind of feels like Browders special little baby, people have pointed out how it breaks lategame warp in units and causes annoying as fuck pushes since a couple months after release, yet any meaningful changes have never been attempted (delaying research time is cute but not a redesign and only just slightly delays the problem), if we want to change this entire shitty toss/zerg dynamics, this is really the first thing that needs to be drastically changed. Yet, due to it being one of Browders "Cool" ideas, I fear we will never see warpgate dissapear until Blizzard fires his ass. It's just kind of frustrating that just when people are trying to shift the focus on the problems with Fungal, Morrows creates this rant about a literally 2 year old problem that Blizzard and quite frankly 99% of the community already know about, bad timing, especially when Zerg has been winning practically everything but WCG recently.
all disguise to either prevent a nerf, or to get a nerf of protoss in compensation of fixing infestors...
people should discuss such huge changes in HotS forum, 100% sure that something as elemental will change in WoL
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On November 19 2012 05:57 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:53 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP. Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate. I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game. The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way. Agreed, to be honest, Warp in kind of feels like Browders special little baby, people have pointed out how it breaks lategame warp in units and causes annoying as fuck pushes since a couple months after release, yet any meaningful changes have never been attempted (delaying research time is cute but not a redesign and only just slightly delays the problem), if we want to change this entire shitty toss/zerg dynamics, this is really the first thing that needs to be drastically changed. Yet, due to it being one of Browders "Cool" ideas, I fear we will never see warpgate dissapear until Blizzard fires his ass. It's just kind of frustrating that just when people are trying to shift the focus on the problems with Fungal, Morrows creates this rant about a literally 2 year old problem that Blizzard and quite frankly 99% of the community already know about, bad timing, especially when Zerg has been winning practically everything but WCG recently. all disguise to either prevent a nerf, or to get a nerf of protoss in compensation of fixing infestors...
My main race is protoss so please dont pull the bias card 
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On November 19 2012 05:53 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP. Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate. I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game. The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way. Agreed, to be honest, Warp in kind of feels like Browders special little baby, people have pointed out how it breaks lategame warp in units and causes annoying as fuck pushes since a couple months after release, yet any meaningful changes have never been attempted (delaying research time is cute but not a redesign and only just slightly delays the problem), if we want to change this entire shitty toss/zerg dynamics, this is really the first thing that needs to be drastically changed. Yet, due to it being one of Browders "Cool" ideas, I fear we will never see warpgate dissapear until Blizzard fires his ass. It's just kind of frustrating that just when people are trying to shift the focus on the problems with Fungal, Morrows creates this rant about a literally 2 year old problem that Blizzard and quite frankly 99% of the community already know about, bad timing, especially when Zerg has been winning practically everything but WCG recently.
I disagree with your point about the timing of this post.
I think this post's timing is good because it details one of the reasons why it's so hard for Blizzard to just up and nerf Fungal Growth. It's integral in helping Zerg actually deal with Forcefield because of how strong that spell currently is which creates in my mind a really terrible dynamic.
How do you counter this overpowered spell? You use THIS overpowered spell! Well then how do you counter THAT overpowered spell? You use THIS overpowered spell! >.< ( FF > Fungal > Vortex)
The problem are the spells themselves, and not because they deal damage no, spells in Starcraft 1 dealt far more damage than anything currently in play in Starcraft 2, no rather because they negate the ability for players to control their units and in a game where the damage output of units is so high that ability to negate control is frankly completely broken.
What this game needs is not a focus on one particular spell or unit, but rather a refocus on the core problems with Protoss and Zerg design that necessitates these spells and units being in the game in the first place.
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How about we give Zerg an anti-energy spell like the other two races? Maybe put it on a unit besides the infestor so that Zerg has to make something else and micro an additional caster.
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On November 19 2012 06:03 JBrown08 wrote:
How about we give Zerg an anti-energy spell like the other two races? Maybe put it on a unit besides the infestor so that Zerg has to make something else and micro an additional caster.
More casters are NOT how you fix these problems.
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On November 19 2012 06:03 JBrown08 wrote:
How about we give Zerg an anti-energy spell like the other two races? Maybe put it on a unit besides the infestor so that Zerg has to make something else and micro an additional caster.
How does that solve the problem that without Forcefield Protoss units get annihilated by Zerg armies?
Without good Forcefields, Zergling/Roach armies absolutely decimate everything Protoss can field pre-Collosus tech, which is one of the reasons Protoss players are so defensive about Forcefield when we discuss countering or removing it.
We cannot simply nerf Forcefield without compensating Protoss in some other way, the same is true also of Fungal Growth even though both spells do need to be nerfed, they serve such a key role in allowing the race to stay viable that we can't simply nerf the spell without compensating the race.
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On November 19 2012 06:06 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 06:03 JBrown08 wrote:
How about we give Zerg an anti-energy spell like the other two races? Maybe put it on a unit besides the infestor so that Zerg has to make something else and micro an additional caster. More casters are NOT how you fix these problems.
Alright, give it to the infestor then
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On November 19 2012 05:58 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:57 freetgy wrote:On November 19 2012 05:53 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:
[quote]
Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP. Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate. I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game. The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way. Agreed, to be honest, Warp in kind of feels like Browders special little baby, people have pointed out how it breaks lategame warp in units and causes annoying as fuck pushes since a couple months after release, yet any meaningful changes have never been attempted (delaying research time is cute but not a redesign and only just slightly delays the problem), if we want to change this entire shitty toss/zerg dynamics, this is really the first thing that needs to be drastically changed. Yet, due to it being one of Browders "Cool" ideas, I fear we will never see warpgate dissapear until Blizzard fires his ass. It's just kind of frustrating that just when people are trying to shift the focus on the problems with Fungal, Morrows creates this rant about a literally 2 year old problem that Blizzard and quite frankly 99% of the community already know about, bad timing, especially when Zerg has been winning practically everything but WCG recently. all disguise to either prevent a nerf, or to get a nerf of protoss in compensation of fixing infestors... My main race is protoss so please dont pull the bias card
I will pull your nationality bias ! :D
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On November 19 2012 06:07 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 06:03 JBrown08 wrote:
How about we give Zerg an anti-energy spell like the other two races? Maybe put it on a unit besides the infestor so that Zerg has to make something else and micro an additional caster. How does that solve the problem that without Forcefield Protoss units get annihilated by Zerg armies? Without good Forcefields, Zergling/Roach armies absolutely decimate everything Protoss can field pre-Collosus tech, which is one of the reasons Protoss players are so defensive about Forcefield when we discuss countering or removing it. We cannot simply nerf Forcefield without compensating Protoss in some other way, the same is true also of Fungal Growth even though both spells do need to be nerfed, they serve such a key role in allowing the race to stay viable that we can't simply nerf the spell without compensating the race.
Well you make it a single target spell like feedback and give it less range than ff. Now you have micro.
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People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming.
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On November 19 2012 06:09 JBrown08 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 06:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 06:03 JBrown08 wrote:
How about we give Zerg an anti-energy spell like the other two races? Maybe put it on a unit besides the infestor so that Zerg has to make something else and micro an additional caster. How does that solve the problem that without Forcefield Protoss units get annihilated by Zerg armies? Without good Forcefields, Zergling/Roach armies absolutely decimate everything Protoss can field pre-Collosus tech, which is one of the reasons Protoss players are so defensive about Forcefield when we discuss countering or removing it. We cannot simply nerf Forcefield without compensating Protoss in some other way, the same is true also of Fungal Growth even though both spells do need to be nerfed, they serve such a key role in allowing the race to stay viable that we can't simply nerf the spell without compensating the race. Well you make it a single target spell like feedback and give it less range than ff. Now you have micro.
It still isn't an even trade.
You're giving Zerg another way of countering Forcefield sure but you're not giving anything to Protoss that lessens their dependence on Forcefield in the first place and we aren't also addressing the late game issues that favor Zerg in the Zerg vs Protoss match up that have led so many Protoss players into all inning pre-Hive tech by abusing Forcefield....
See how complicated this is? The spell is a cornerstone of the race in the match up and nerfing or removing it requires a fundamental rethinking of the match up's dynamics and the race designs that create that dynamic. That is what Blizzard NEEDS to do right now. Nerfing both spells and calling it a day will not solve the problems they'll simply bandaid them.
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EPT
