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On November 19 2012 04:11 InstantKarma wrote:
Someone on reddit mentioned hydras as a way of dealing with this. Their longer range will make it easier to micro against the FF.
I think it would fit perfectly balance wise too.
Zerg will need to get their late game nerfed by reducing the effectiveness of infestors but then the mid-game of zerg might suffer against protoss all-ins. Hydras will be good in the mid-game against the protoss all-ins but lose effectiveness in the late game as protoss gets colossus.
Bad idea. just make overlords spread creep on ff's and allow lings to run over them. Doesn't affect other match ups and makes it so zergs have to do some sweet micro if they wanna get their lings at the toss army.
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This has been a problem, however the issue with fungal growth is this x10. For forcefields there at least exists some (limited) options for dealing with it after they go out, such as roach burrow movement and (rarely seen) overlord picks-ups/drops.
However, if fungal growth lands, it lands. Done. And the likelihood and ease of chaining fungal growths (with very little possible response from the opponent) is very high.
Yes, this is a problem, but the problem with fungal is the same but amplified. I'd fix fungal first, as the forcefield problem only affects 1 match-up really, while fungal is screwing 2 and even all 3 matchups involving zerg atm.
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I agree, I think it would be better to buff something zerg has slightly instead of nerfing protoss in this interaction. Burrow move is essentially useless (while drops are still somewhat useful) and that would probably be the best direction. Shame like you said colossi shred the ground army anyway. I know it's different in HotS, though. Viper gives zerg the options for micro control that you desire, I think.
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We need the 100h FF marathon now . Go Morrow 
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Just so everyone knows, if you changed FF so it no longer blocked movement completely, PvP would be an even shittier matchup.
Anyway, both FF and fungal growth are bad skills which shouldn't have existed in the first place. Neither are really that hard to use but both are incredibly good. FF is more skill-requiring, but there still isn't much zerg can do. I would however like to see how immortal sentry builds do against vipers (the most intelligently designed HotS unit, imo). It seems like that would add an interesting twist to immortal sentry builds, and even lategame P pushes before BL. ZvP matchup has sucked for a long time, but if they want to fix any particular matchup, they should fix PvP first, then work on the other matchups. PvP is just total trash.
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FFs need changing, I don't think anybody disagrees with that, but that would mean a total overhaul in pvp too, and pvt
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Queen being massive would be an amazing way to change how FF works in ZvP
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On November 19 2012 04:27 Blargh wrote:
Just so everyone knows, if you changed FF so it no longer blocked movement completely, PvP would be an even shittier matchup.
Anyway, both FF and fungal growth are bad skills which shouldn't have existed in the first place. Neither are really that hard to use but both are incredibly good. FF is more skill-requiring, but there still isn't much zerg can do. I would however like to see how immortal sentry builds do against vipers (the most intelligently designed HotS unit, imo). It seems like that would add an interesting twist to immortal sentry builds, and even lategame P pushes before BL. ZvP matchup has sucked for a long time, but if they want to fix any particular matchup, they should fix PvP first, then work on the other matchups. PvP is just total trash.
Immortal Sentry against Vipers? So, 8 minute Hive?
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And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears.
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On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears.
Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool.
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Basically SC2 needs a complete redesign from the ground up. There are so many things wrong with this game at the core level, that everything else revolves around, that simple fixes just aren't going to cut it. Sadly, I'm pretty sure Blizzard is too set in their ways to even consider the possibility of completely reworking the races. HoTS already has a release date set in stone. I don't even expect them to do all the things they wanted to make work with this beta (I'm looking at you mech TvP). I mean, they didn't even really try very had... Warhound didn't work out, so they just scrape it along with the idea of making mech TvP work. There's just too many things wrong with this game from anti-micro abilities, to the hard counter system, to even the ability for either race to win at any point in the match. I've just been very disappointed with the direction of SC2 for a long time now and I just don't think Blizzard cares enough to makes the radical changes this game needs.
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On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool.
Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right?
The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance.
OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that.
Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry?
And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have.
Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care.
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I agree, and i strongly believe FF is even worst than fungal, because all the protoss ground units have more range than zerg ground units.
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On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care.
MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight.
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Welcome to the world of TvP... I mean TvZ... errrm...right?
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MorroW, why you didnt said that Sen made in first game 6pool in second 2base roach all in...Not suprise he lost...
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On November 19 2012 04:09 Faent wrote:
Good read, I basically agree with this 100%
Im scared right now because I can hear the nerf bat whistling through the air towards the Fungal Growth, but no one has really talked about the force field in so long that Blizzard is probably going to overlook this T_T Hopefully the dominance of these all-ins at the WCS will get the ball rolling
What dominance of all ins. The best players won. WCS was how it was suppossed to be.
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On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight.
Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time.
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Ya I'm just wondering if there's some way to make a zerg build that does something like, say, doesn't saturate the third base until they have some confirmation that this attack isn't coming. If protoss gets a build to FFE and then kill a 10 minute 3hatch/60drones, but zerg can figure out a way to scout it, and then sit on "two and a half bases" to counter it, it might be a good thing for making the match up less predictable as a whole.
However I'm not a zerg player much less a pro zerg player. I am something of an SC2 watcher, though!
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I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.
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EPT
