• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:57
CEST 07:57
KST 14:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed13Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll4Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Who will win EWC 2025? The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Help: rep cant save BW General Discussion Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 800 users

A fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 31 Next All
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 20:08:50
November 18 2012 20:05 GMT
#241
On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.

Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.

Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.

As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
nanoscorp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1237 Posts
November 18 2012 20:06 GMT
#242
One of the things that makes FF such a challenge to face is that it is instant-cast and spammable. Much like Fungal Growth, opportunities to react are severely limited. If you offer your opponent a chance to micro well and he does, you get punished hard.

From a casual viewer's perspective, the tension isn't always apparent. A battlefield with 2 armies moving around, poking, trying to bait FFs doesn't look like a fight. When the FFs go down, the battle may be over, even though it might appear to have just started. I think this needs to change.

What if FFs were deployed more like bunkers, and less like psi storm? Give Sentries the ability to construct FFs, with a brief channel duration, giving a quick opponent time to react. Give FFs a solid core with hitpoints or shields, so that there's an option of busting an offensive blockade, like in ZvT. Good FFs will still be good. Protoss players will still be able to shape battlefields beyond what the natural terrain offers, but good opponents will have more options when reacting.
jesseclaytonjames
Profile Joined November 2011
20 Posts
November 18 2012 20:07 GMT
#243
Wow, really? Just make the overlords drop creep on the FF's somehow and allow lings to run over. That simple. It might require a little bit of an upgrade to the overlord's creep puke...like a little ranged one on CD or something that could target FF's. Would require micro, and allow the zergs units to not ALL be completely useless.
JacobShock
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Denmark2485 Posts
November 18 2012 20:09 GMT
#244
A lot of people here, probably not zerg players seem to think it's possible to get drop play and tunneling claws out in time to stop the immortal allin. I find that very unlikely, unless the toss doing the allin is way behind on his timing, in other words he's bad. So no, they aren't really options. Not if you want to take an early third.

I don't think ffs should be nerfed or removed. In all honesty I hate nerfs, I'd rather see shit getting buffed. So maybe decrease the build time of tunneling claws? I honestly don't know. Decrease build time for spine crawlers? And buff something of protoss.

In all honesty I'm not sure action NEEDS to be taken against FF. All though I find both FF and fungal rather obnoxious. If a spell becomes the corner stone of every game, it just becomes very unexciting.
"Right on" - Morrow
jesseclaytonjames
Profile Joined November 2011
20 Posts
November 18 2012 20:10 GMT
#245
On November 19 2012 05:06 nanoscorp wrote:
One of the things that makes FF such a challenge to face is that it is instant-cast and spammable. Much like Fungal Growth, opportunities to react are severely limited. If you offer your opponent a chance to micro well and he does, you get punished hard.

From a casual viewer's perspective, the tension isn't always apparent. A battlefield with 2 armies moving around, poking, trying to bait FFs doesn't look like a fight. When the FFs go down, the battle may be over, even though it might appear to have just started. I think this needs to change.

What if FFs were deployed more like bunkers, and less like psi storm? Give Sentries the ability to construct FFs, with a brief channel duration, giving a quick opponent time to react. Give FFs a solid core with hitpoints or shields, so that there's an option of busting an offensive blockade, like in ZvT. Good FFs will still be good. Protoss players will still be able to shape battlefields beyond what the natural terrain offers, but good opponents will have more options when reacting.


Sorry for the double post, but this too is an acceptable idea in my opinion. It allows for some cool decisions to be made by the other player. Although now that I think about it...terran armies with stim would be really OP against this since their target fire dps is out of control
Shebuha
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1335 Posts
November 18 2012 20:13 GMT
#246
Dealing with forcefield from a balance perspective fucks my mind up so much that every time that I type a couple of paragraphs I just end up deleting them because it would take FOREVER to address everything you'd have to change after removing forcefields.

In the end, after all the hard work balancing, I think that removing forcefields (and warpgate for that matter) would be really good for the game.

Also, I'd be curious to see how gateway units would be buffed as a result of these 2 changes. More life? More Damage? Cheaper? Very hard to say, because if they just straight up got stronger it might become stupidly hard to defend things like really early pressure -- perhaps gateway openings vs. zerg would become sick good.

Deckkie
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1595 Posts
November 18 2012 20:15 GMT
#247
On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?

Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?

For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears.


Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool.


Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right?

The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance.

OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that.
Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry?
And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have.

Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care.


MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight.


Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time.


I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work.
Always look on the bright side of life
insanet
Profile Joined January 2010
Peru439 Posts
November 18 2012 20:15 GMT
#248
Spells that block micro dont belong in a RTS, armies should be able to retreat if they think they are gonna lose the engagement.
Forcefield and Fungal Root need to get out.

Protoss players should be asking for a better designed race.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10126 Posts
November 18 2012 20:18 GMT
#249
On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.

Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.

Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.

As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.


What kind of crazy logic is that ?
LimeNade
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2125 Posts
November 18 2012 20:21 GMT
#250
obviously the best thing to watch is a 160 food zerg army run around behind invisible hexagonal fields like their heads are cut off while they get blasted or when u get like 10 roaches stacked into a tiny area by surrounded force fields. Makes for great watching of games......... ><
JD, need I say more? :D
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
November 18 2012 20:21 GMT
#251
On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:
On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.

Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.

Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.

As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.


What kind of crazy logic is that ?

Yeah, I didn't really get that either. Anything other than a 3-0 is a surprise to me when high level Code S players go up against foreigners.
Xanbatou
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States805 Posts
November 18 2012 20:23 GMT
#252
Why don't they replace forcefield with that time warp ability from the oracle? Wouldn't that solve these problems?
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 20:24:18
November 18 2012 20:23 GMT
#253
Very well written MorroW as always, really highlighting the core part of the issue here.

Forcefield creates a dynamic in Protoss vs Zerg that neither Protoss players nor Zerg players are happy with.

Because Forcefield is so good, Protoss units are weak without it because they'd be overpowered once combined with forcefield. We can't ever address the weakness of gateway units against Roaches until we've addressed how powerful Forcefield currently is.

We can't ever change the "turtle to Broodlord" mentality of Zergs in ZvP until we've addressed Forcefield and given Zerg another way of playing the match up pre-Hive Tech.

Forcefield is also a problem in TvP (for the same reasons already discussed) early game but it is not NEARLY as pronounced as it is in Zerg vs Protoss.

With Blizzard now finally taking a look at Fungal Growth which tends to follow the same exact pattern as Forcefield in a lot of ways, perhaps they can finally take a look at Forcefield.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
November 18 2012 20:27 GMT
#254
On November 19 2012 05:23 Xanbatou wrote:
Why don't they replace forcefield with that time warp ability from the oracle? Wouldn't that solve these problems?


Not by itself it wouldn't.

If Forcefield leaves Protoss needs to have stronger gateway units to compensate similar to their relative strength in Starcraft 1.

Time Warp is a much better designed spell which merely WEAKENS the micro potential of an opponent rather than completely remove it, but Forcefield's design allows for Protoss to have weaker. more fragile gateway units than they would be able to have were it not in the game, so the first step we'd need to take after removing it would be to compensate Protoss early game units with additional health and shielding.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
November 18 2012 20:28 GMT
#255
On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:
On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.

Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.

Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.

As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.


What kind of crazy logic is that ?

??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Scootaloo
Profile Joined January 2012
655 Posts
November 18 2012 20:33 GMT
#256
On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?

Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?

For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears.


Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool.


Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right?

The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance.

OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that.
Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry?
And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have.

Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care.


MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight.


Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time.


I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work.


Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 .
If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be.
Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen?

Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes.

Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10126 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 20:39:12
November 18 2012 20:34 GMT
#257
On November 19 2012 05:28 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:
On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:
On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.

Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.

Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.

As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.


What kind of crazy logic is that ?

??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get.


Well it's hard to understand when we are speaking about FF's being imbalanced, bad design, both or neither and you write down that. In the context is hard to get that you are actually talking about Zerg being OP or something
LuckyMacro
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1482 Posts
November 18 2012 20:37 GMT
#258
Morrow mentioned points from both sides...protoss too weak without it, and when used well, forcefields are really really good.
Don't see why people are treating this as a purely "omg fuck protoss" OP.
Scootaloo
Profile Joined January 2012
655 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 20:40:13
November 18 2012 20:39 GMT
#259
On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:
On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.

Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.

Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.

As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.


What kind of crazy logic is that ?


If a less skilled (I don't think I need to tell you Koreans tend to be pretty hardcore as far as training goes) player can get a really close match with his far superior opponent, this points towards imbalance, quite simple logic really.
I'm sure Vortix and Suppy have had their good runs through some tourney's, this is still not the level of a 2nd place Code S finalist.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
November 18 2012 20:40 GMT
#260
On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:
On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?

Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?

For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears.


Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool.


Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right?

The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance.

OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that.
Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry?
And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have.

Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care.


MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight.


Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time.


I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work.


Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 .
If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be.
Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen?

Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes.

Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP.


Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate.

I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game.

The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Prev 1 11 12 13 14 15 31 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 3m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 303
StarCraft: Brood War
Snow 228
Leta 177
TY 136
Noble 41
sSak 21
NotJumperer 3
Dota 2
monkeys_forever769
League of Legends
JimRising 796
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1185
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King87
Other Games
summit1g12711
shahzam749
WinterStarcraft457
C9.Mang0335
NeuroSwarm61
ROOTCatZ57
ViBE30
Trikslyr24
SortOf18
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2192
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 60
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1799
• Lourlo1326
• Stunt444
Other Games
• Scarra2647
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
4h 3m
OSC
7h 3m
WardiTV European League
10h 3m
Fjant vs Babymarine
Mixu vs HiGhDrA
Gerald vs ArT
goblin vs MaNa
Jumy vs YoungYakov
Replay Cast
18h 3m
Epic.LAN
1d 6h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Epic.LAN
2 days
CSO Contender
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
5 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

JPL Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.