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On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that.
Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.
As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.
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One of the things that makes FF such a challenge to face is that it is instant-cast and spammable. Much like Fungal Growth, opportunities to react are severely limited. If you offer your opponent a chance to micro well and he does, you get punished hard.
From a casual viewer's perspective, the tension isn't always apparent. A battlefield with 2 armies moving around, poking, trying to bait FFs doesn't look like a fight. When the FFs go down, the battle may be over, even though it might appear to have just started. I think this needs to change.
What if FFs were deployed more like bunkers, and less like psi storm? Give Sentries the ability to construct FFs, with a brief channel duration, giving a quick opponent time to react. Give FFs a solid core with hitpoints or shields, so that there's an option of busting an offensive blockade, like in ZvT. Good FFs will still be good. Protoss players will still be able to shape battlefields beyond what the natural terrain offers, but good opponents will have more options when reacting.
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Wow, really? Just make the overlords drop creep on the FF's somehow and allow lings to run over. That simple. It might require a little bit of an upgrade to the overlord's creep puke...like a little ranged one on CD or something that could target FF's. Would require micro, and allow the zergs units to not ALL be completely useless.
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A lot of people here, probably not zerg players seem to think it's possible to get drop play and tunneling claws out in time to stop the immortal allin. I find that very unlikely, unless the toss doing the allin is way behind on his timing, in other words he's bad. So no, they aren't really options. Not if you want to take an early third.
I don't think ffs should be nerfed or removed. In all honesty I hate nerfs, I'd rather see shit getting buffed. So maybe decrease the build time of tunneling claws? I honestly don't know. Decrease build time for spine crawlers? And buff something of protoss.
In all honesty I'm not sure action NEEDS to be taken against FF. All though I find both FF and fungal rather obnoxious. If a spell becomes the corner stone of every game, it just becomes very unexciting.
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On November 19 2012 05:06 nanoscorp wrote:
One of the things that makes FF such a challenge to face is that it is instant-cast and spammable. Much like Fungal Growth, opportunities to react are severely limited. If you offer your opponent a chance to micro well and he does, you get punished hard.
From a casual viewer's perspective, the tension isn't always apparent. A battlefield with 2 armies moving around, poking, trying to bait FFs doesn't look like a fight. When the FFs go down, the battle may be over, even though it might appear to have just started. I think this needs to change.
What if FFs were deployed more like bunkers, and less like psi storm? Give Sentries the ability to construct FFs, with a brief channel duration, giving a quick opponent time to react. Give FFs a solid core with hitpoints or shields, so that there's an option of busting an offensive blockade, like in ZvT. Good FFs will still be good. Protoss players will still be able to shape battlefields beyond what the natural terrain offers, but good opponents will have more options when reacting.
Sorry for the double post, but this too is an acceptable idea in my opinion. It allows for some cool decisions to be made by the other player. Although now that I think about it...terran armies with stim would be really OP against this since their target fire dps is out of control
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Dealing with forcefield from a balance perspective fucks my mind up so much that every time that I type a couple of paragraphs I just end up deleting them because it would take FOREVER to address everything you'd have to change after removing forcefields.
In the end, after all the hard work balancing, I think that removing forcefields (and warpgate for that matter) would be really good for the game.
Also, I'd be curious to see how gateway units would be buffed as a result of these 2 changes. More life? More Damage? Cheaper? Very hard to say, because if they just straight up got stronger it might become stupidly hard to defend things like really early pressure -- perhaps gateway openings vs. zerg would become sick good.
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On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time.
I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work.
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Spells that block micro dont belong in a RTS, armies should be able to retreat if they think they are gonna lose the engagement.
Forcefield and Fungal Root need to get out.
Protoss players should be asking for a better designed race.
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On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses.
What kind of crazy logic is that ?
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obviously the best thing to watch is a 160 food zerg army run around behind invisible hexagonal fields like their heads are cut off while they get blasted or when u get like 10 roaches stacked into a tiny area by surrounded force fields. Makes for great watching of games......... ><
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On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ?
Yeah, I didn't really get that either. Anything other than a 3-0 is a surprise to me when high level Code S players go up against foreigners.
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Why don't they replace forcefield with that time warp ability from the oracle? Wouldn't that solve these problems?
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Very well written MorroW as always, really highlighting the core part of the issue here.
Forcefield creates a dynamic in Protoss vs Zerg that neither Protoss players nor Zerg players are happy with.
Because Forcefield is so good, Protoss units are weak without it because they'd be overpowered once combined with forcefield. We can't ever address the weakness of gateway units against Roaches until we've addressed how powerful Forcefield currently is.
We can't ever change the "turtle to Broodlord" mentality of Zergs in ZvP until we've addressed Forcefield and given Zerg another way of playing the match up pre-Hive Tech.
Forcefield is also a problem in TvP (for the same reasons already discussed) early game but it is not NEARLY as pronounced as it is in Zerg vs Protoss.
With Blizzard now finally taking a look at Fungal Growth which tends to follow the same exact pattern as Forcefield in a lot of ways, perhaps they can finally take a look at Forcefield.
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On November 19 2012 05:23 Xanbatou wrote:
Why don't they replace forcefield with that time warp ability from the oracle? Wouldn't that solve these problems?
Not by itself it wouldn't.
If Forcefield leaves Protoss needs to have stronger gateway units to compensate similar to their relative strength in Starcraft 1.
Time Warp is a much better designed spell which merely WEAKENS the micro potential of an opponent rather than completely remove it, but Forcefield's design allows for Protoss to have weaker. more fragile gateway units than they would be able to have were it not in the game, so the first step we'd need to take after removing it would be to compensate Protoss early game units with additional health and shielding.
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On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ?
??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get.
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On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work.
Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 .
If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be.
Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen?
Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes.
Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP.
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On November 19 2012 05:28 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ? ??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get.
Well it's hard to understand when we are speaking about FF's being imbalanced, bad design, both or neither and you write down that. In the context is hard to get that you are actually talking about Zerg being OP or something 
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Morrow mentioned points from both sides...protoss too weak without it, and when used well, forcefields are really really good.
Don't see why people are treating this as a purely "omg fuck protoss" OP.
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On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ?
If a less skilled (I don't think I need to tell you Koreans tend to be pretty hardcore as far as training goes) player can get a really close match with his far superior opponent, this points towards imbalance, quite simple logic really.
I'm sure Vortix and Suppy have had their good runs through some tourney's, this is still not the level of a 2nd place Code S finalist.
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On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP.
Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate.
I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game.
The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way.
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