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A fundamental issue about forcefield

Forum Index > SC2 General
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MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 14:21:50
November 18 2012 12:33 GMT
#1
this is a post i originally posted on the hots public discussion thread (as well as the internal hots forum). this is not really a discussion that applies only to hots, of course its very relevant in WoL too i felt like posting it here too.

im sure we all just saw the amazing tournament that just happened (wcs world). i suggest for all who didnt watch it should go check up the vods (not sure where or if they exist sorry).

after i saw parting win against sen with immortal sentry allin 3 games in a row and afterwards seeing sen get destroyed by rain 3 games in a row with timing attacks before broodlord tipped me over the edge to finally go ahead and get this off my chest.
mind you i think parting rain and sen are all great players and i do realize they were not perfectly played games too from both zerg and protoss perspectives - i still feel they demonstrated what im talking about here.

so please go ahead and discuss what you think about this, everyone has their own opinions wether or not this is an issue, if its even possible at this point to fix and even more specifically what is actually needed to be done to address the issues presented


heart of the swarm beta discussion - origin source
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7180048170
reddit discussion
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/13ea3c/a_fundamental_issue_about_forcefield_morrow/
This is nothing new and this has been the case all along
this has been an ongoing thought of many progamers for quite a long time but i thought like posting about it now because of some games were seeing in the wcs tournament in china

the issue is regarding ZvP at given point of the game, but more heavily before infestors or broodlords are out. in other words normally prior the 12 minute mark for infestors and 16 minute mark of broodlords.

Protoss player needs great micro, zerg needs protoss not to have
the issue is really not that complicated, its very hard for a zerg player to win a fight by having superior micro than his opponent. in a classic zvp fight, it only comes down to the skill and micro of the protoss player. (ofcourse there is a lot of skill involved where zerg chooses to pick his battles and so forth, but what im talking about is the actual battle and not where or how its initiated).

if both players micro badly, lets say the forcefields are late and/or missing and zerg is just amoving without any target fireing etc - the zerg almost always totally destroys the battle.

if both players micro absolutely beautiful, forcefields cut out the perfect amount of zerg units outside range of the protoss army and lets perfect amount of zerg units inside the forcefields doomed to die. the actual zerg micro is not really relevant during a fight, he move commands into the protoss and crosses his fingers his opponents micro wont be godly. once the forcefields are declared the room zerg has to micro is to target fire down the most potent units as much as possible while hes rapidly losing his units inside the forcefields.

so if you compare both of the races in such a situation, the zerg doesnt really have a lot of room to preform great micro, at same time zerg has little to no room to !@#$ up during the engement.
where as a protoss players micro control can be everything from god awful and lose his entire army in a snap second to executing perfectly and absolutely destroys the zerg army losing close to nothing.

"I have to learn actually micro while you a-move" "well at least you can micro"
this is very frustrating for both sides of the table. the protoss is unhappy because his micro control has to be spot on to be able to keep up with a zerg that doesnt really need great micro. and a high level zerg player feels helpless to outplay his opponent because he feels he has not enough opportunities to stand out from a lesser zerg player.

Closing the distance
there has been many ways zerg players has tried to close the distance and put their faiths into their own hands trying to win engements by their own micro control and not relying on protoss microing poorly with burrow movement roaches and overlord drops.
both of these tools were absolutely amazing for a period of time - but eventually protosses found micro techniques and ways to about it to counter these tools.
against drops they would normally put down forcefields and snipe an overlord at a time while kiting backwards. the overlords were simply too fragile and slow to ever catch up with the kiting protoss army.
against burrow movement the protoss would do a similar technique. they would wait for the roaches to come out or close to passing the initial forcefields, then proceed to back off with their units slightly and put down a new layer of forcefields.
the roaches end up being prisoned from surface by the forcefields, stuck under the ice in other words

from this we see alot of protosses on the absolute top level of play "abuse" the fact that their micro control is so good, so strong that they feel immortal from dying as long as they are attacking in the right timing windows.
the build everyone is thinking of already, im sure - is the famous 3immortal allin warp prism (10:30~) but also the classic "timing before broodlord" which is more of a playstyle than a build.
both of these timings share a very similar key to success, the lack of zergs ability to close the distance between the zerg and protoss army because of forcefield.
3base infestor can come out at different timings - sure its possible to get infestors out by the time such an immortal allin would strike, but that doesnt change the fact that if zerg doesnt have infestors, prior statements written in this post remain true - zerg feels helpless against perfectly controlled protoss army. the meta game were in right now, zergs dont simply go this quick infestors because of their fear to get killed by different builds than the 3immortal allin (there are alot of strong timing attacks from protoss prior 10:30 that would destroy a zerg cutting corners to try to get to infestors out earlier).

the timing attack before broodlord is very loose on when its hitting, because its much later timing. protoss is on 3bases and zerg is on 4, usually all games look slightly different but this timing normally always exists and every top protoss player knows by now - they need to kill zerg before broodlords are out. why that is exactly i wont go into. this topic is about forcefield and not the well-known problematic lack of protoss lategame options against a zerg.

zerg will have infestors out - sure, and corrupters are flying they dont care about forcefields. thats true as well.
but the thing that you need to keep in mind is, once you get enugh colossus you just kind of destroy infested terrans without a problem (the magic number for this timing is usually 3).
forcefields not only prevents the zerg army from engaging, they help a ton to prevent the perfect fungals from going down, and when fungals can only hit a colossus and 3~ gateway units its not nearly as effective anymore.
the corrupters are usually a great tool, if you get fungal on a colossus simultaneously sending in the corrupters to pick that colossus off - youll kill it with ease. but most of the times that is not the case. another thing to keep in mind is most of the times zerg will not even have corrupters out at this time, and if they do they wont really have a sufficient number to survive the stalker fire while trying to kill the colossus.
its safe to say by now the timing before the broodlord is a very sticky situation for both where a lot of dancing is done through fungal corrupter colossus stalker. but the ground army is almost not relevant at all because of forcefield.

Nothing dies, then suddenly everything dies
when protoss gets enough sentries for forcefield, zergs army becomes kind of useless. the second forcefields run out for protoss, the protoss army gets easily run over and killed without a chance

Its all about the force fields
i think forcefield takes too heavy weight in this matchup. and i hope blizzard agrees with me. i want a zerg with great micro control to find ways to deal with the forcefield and i would love if the protoss army wouldnt completely get rolled without relying on forcefield. it is very uninteresting at times in these top level pvz games perfect forcefields keep the protoss army invournable and as soon as they run out - the toss dies.

Where is the first step? Is there one? Maybe its even too late
i know its not an easy fix. because force field has been the word in zvp for all this time its hard to imagine the things needed for a protoss player to beat a zerg army without a huge wall of forcefield unabling the zerg to actually attack the protoss army. zerg unit nerfs? protoss buffs? how will any of this work in other matchups?
its also hard to find the best ways to able zerg through micro control to close the distance.
what should be changes, forcefield, tunneling claws, overlord drops something new entirely? i dont know

keep in mind, i dont want forcefield to be removed from the game, i think its awesome. i just think it has way too big weight in the matchup and there are some huge issues that come from it.

its very clear at this point, not addressing the issue is probably the easiest way to go about it. is this really a fundamental flaw that needs to be adressed? is it really that bad that zerg players cant show off great micro while protoss is required to? its to each his own but i definitely think this is one of the hugest problems in this matchup for a very long time and frankly im quite sick of it. each time i win a zvp engemenent theres a voice in the back of my head that keeps telling me "you won because the protoss %^-*ed up". never am i thinking what i did great, perhaps because i didnt

thanks for reading ! im looking forward to hear your thoughts
P.S a community personal in the blizzard office will make sure this topic reaches out to david kim and browder too, so they might be reading your opinions too here


"Its amazing that we have different champions in a game where force fields exist" - Artosis
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
MaddeLisk
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden22 Posts
November 18 2012 12:34 GMT
#2
+1!

User was warned for this post
gingerfluffmuff
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria4570 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 12:40:00
November 18 2012 12:38 GMT
#3
(+1!)²
edit: i hope bumps like this are ok, i get way too often warned these days(mostly rightfully)

User was warned for this post
・゚✧:・゚+..。✧・゚:・..。 ✧・゚ :・゚ ゜・:・ ✧・゚:・゚:.。 ✧・゚ SPARKULING *・゜・:・゚✧:・゚✧。゚+..。 ✧・゚: ✧・゚:・゜・:・゚✧::・・:・゚・゚
Rescawen
Profile Joined April 2010
Finland1028 Posts
November 18 2012 12:41 GMT
#4
To the power of 3!

User was warned for this post
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
November 18 2012 12:43 GMT
#5
well

i m still feeling like burrowed roaches and overlord drops are underused and underrated

but i totally agree with your point about the lack of options zerg can use to micro their heart out to win a battle, while protoss has to do too much in comparision to a zerg
randoomguy
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden82 Posts
November 18 2012 12:45 GMT
#6
welcome to tvz for a terran player

User was warned for this post
FAIRY TAIL WILL ALWAYS WATCH OVER ME
tehcaekftw
Profile Joined March 2012
Denmark138 Posts
November 18 2012 12:47 GMT
#7
What if forcefields were made so that you cant place them on top of units, just like buildings? That would prevent that splitting army into 10 bits and win, but FF would still be good defensively.
robih
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria1086 Posts
November 18 2012 12:48 GMT
#8
On November 18 2012 21:47 tehcaekftw wrote:
What if forcefields were made so that you cant place them on top of units, just like buildings? That would prevent that splitting army into 10 bits and win, but FF would still be good defensively.



would make it totally useless
Mandalor
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
Germany2362 Posts
November 18 2012 12:49 GMT
#9
totally agree with this. But it would be extremely hard to fix this, I feel.
Maybe nerf ff (reduce their size, slow units and not block them, 2 ff max for a sentry, ...) and buff zealot stalker. Bunkers would have to be buffed as well then, I guess.
cythaze
Profile Joined June 2011
830 Posts
November 18 2012 12:49 GMT
#10
On November 18 2012 21:45 randoomguy wrote:
welcome to tvz for a terran player


actually: no, this isnt the same. tvz its atleast splitting/target fireing vs hitting fungals and getting good surrounds/baneling connections. If both players just amove into each other the battle is never as onesided as a pvz battle where the protoss player is lacking forcefields in the situation the op is describing.
TylerThaCreator
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States906 Posts
November 18 2012 12:50 GMT
#11
I think using sen's games vs. parting are a bad example, he engaged pretty poorly in games 2 and 3 (and held the attack game 1). With the kind of army he was going for (1-1 lings) he should be wasting forcefields constantly from the protosses nat instead of just letting him march up to your third/nat with full forcefield energy AND your army is at a bad angle. Complaining about forcefields at that point is like complaining about engaging a sieged army from a choke.
aka SethN
Kerence
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden1817 Posts
November 18 2012 12:51 GMT
#12
I don't play Zerg or Protoss (as a matter of fact I haven't really played the game at all for ages) but from a spectator point of view I find that both forcefield and fungal can make for some boring fights since they restrict the other players ability to micro. It's pretty anticlimactic to see an army get destroyed without being able to do anything. Sure, once in a while it's fun to see a player land those perfect hits and destroy the opponent, but when it happens over and over it's not really that exciting.
I am here in the shadows.
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 12:53:15
November 18 2012 12:52 GMT
#13
Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against.

That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight.
syriuszonito
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland332 Posts
November 18 2012 12:53 GMT
#14
So true, this matchup is awful right now and forcefields are one of main reasons for it (2nd is infestor). I feel like right now toss all ins are way too powerful (and relatively easy to perform) and as you mentioned there is barely any way for zerg to defeat them even with great unit control because all you can do is wait for toss to make a mistake. I think together with infestor nerf there should be some change to weaken toss midgame or its gonna be even worse.
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
TsGBruzze
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Sweden1190 Posts
November 18 2012 12:54 GMT
#15
This is so true!
''you got to yolo things up to win''
Jarree
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland1004 Posts
November 18 2012 12:54 GMT
#16
While i agree with OP, i think it's a more fundamental problem than just forcefield and applies to other matchups.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 13:08:09
November 18 2012 12:55 GMT
#17
It's pretty sad this game doesn't promote micro more, and it instead has 'unable to micro' spells like force fields and fungal growths. Actually, I think the same applies to Broodlords too because broodlings trap your units in some cases. I'd rather have them replaced with guardians, that way you can at least micro & blink better than now.
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
November 18 2012 12:57 GMT
#18
On November 18 2012 21:48 robih wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2012 21:47 tehcaekftw wrote:
What if forcefields were made so that you cant place them on top of units, just like buildings? That would prevent that splitting army into 10 bits and win, but FF would still be good defensively.



would make it totally useless

only in fights, u can still block ramps :D
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
Deckkie
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1595 Posts
November 18 2012 13:02 GMT
#19
This is my idea, but I could be totally wrong.

Tier 1 Protoss cant be made stronger because of the warp in mechanic. They dont have a attackers disadvantage in the early game, because of this their units cannot roughly equal the strength of Terran or Zerg early game. If they were the same strength, Terran and maybe Zerg, wouldnt be able to ever tech-up because of the possible 4-gate all-in.

Instead, Protoss has the force field, it becomes effective a little later in the game, and gives Protoss a roughly equally strong Tier1 army.

The proposition is now: If you want to change Protoss Tier1, you first have to change the warp in mechanic.
Always look on the bright side of life
Nimix
Profile Joined October 2011
France1809 Posts
November 18 2012 13:04 GMT
#20
The problem is, fixing FF now would require an overhaul for all matchups (I don't see protosses defending the 10mn medivac timing without FF). But yeah you're totally right, everybody from bronze to pros is annoyed by forcefields; low level protosses use them badly and complain, while at very high level it's terrans and zergs that struggle against protosses with good micro.
The oracle AOE snare is a bit of the same on top of that, and overlaps with forcefields, and won't make the situation get better..
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