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On November 27 2012 10:56 Rassy wrote:
Protoss has to micro, zerg has to macro and a-move and terran,well i dunno they a bit in the middle.
That the races are different, and that protoss can micro more then zerg i dont realy find a valid point.
It seems to be the way the game is set up, with clear differences between all 3 races, not just 3 basicly the same races with only different units. i kinda like this.
It's the fact toss HAS to micro (if that's what you call it) and zerg CANNOT micro. There should be a balance, not A race plays like THIS, B race plays like THAT and that's the end of the story. Zerg should be able to micro to win battles not rely on protoss mis-microing forcefield. Did you even read the fucking op?
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On November 27 2012 11:35 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 10:56 Rassy wrote:
Protoss has to micro, zerg has to macro and a-move and terran,well i dunno they a bit in the middle.
That the races are different, and that protoss can micro more then zerg i dont realy find a valid point.
It seems to be the way the game is set up, with clear differences between all 3 races, not just 3 basicly the same races with only different units. i kinda like this.
It's the fact toss HAS to micro (if that's what you call it) and zerg CANNOT micro. There should be a balance, not A race plays like THIS, B race plays like THAT and that's the end of the story. Zerg should be able to micro to win battles not rely on protoss mis-microing forcefield. Did you even read the fucking op?
um, he just said exactly what you said.... The only difference is he said that he likes that the 3 races are different in that way. Basically if you want to micro you play protoss.
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On November 27 2012 01:20 NostalgiaTag wrote:
I think the solution is going to lie somewhere in HOTS. Honestly the whole concept of controling space in a game like starcraft is that there is a draw back or a cost for doing so. I think all 3 races could benefit from an early game unit that could be used to "bait" out forcefields more effectivly. What that unit is? not sure.. Thats something that someone smarter than me will need to figure out.
How about something that is cheap, small, fast, builds quickly, in large numbers and can do a lot of damage if they're left to freely attack, forcing the Protoss to either block them out, get more units to defend or lose sentries to them? That'd really mess up the Immortal/Sentry all-in because you could harrass them as they make their way across the map and they'd be forced to use forcefields to save themselves or lose sentries. It'd even be good against immortals since immortals are high single-target fire but don't deal with lots of smaller, weaker units doing damage very well. Sounds pretty solid as a concept to me, maybe they could try something like that for one of the races.
On November 25 2012 14:03 ShatterZer0 wrote:
How do you beat an immortal sentry all in?
Don't take a sub 4:30 third and tech a bit before expanding. No you won't put yourself so economically behind that you'll instantly lose, you'll just be on par with the Protoss.
If the all in comes because you denied the Protoss a scout on your third, or the Protoss was retarded enough to attack anyways after scouting no third at 5:00, then you crush the living fuck out of his push and win.
If the all in transitions into a immortal sentry expand, then you continue the game with your faster tech and slower econ.
Zergs act like they don't know the reason why immortal sentry works... it works because it's a timing before blink all ins and stonger than the earlier menial gateway all ins. Zergs have optimized builds to counter post 11:30 timings as well as weaker timings before 10:00. Protoss have adapted to this optimization and learned to hit the medium timing with theoretically weaker armies than the post 11:30 all ins, but with more salience than sub 10:00 minute all-ins...
Know what/when to ovie sac, tech faster, expand 1-2 minutes later and adapt to the new metagame instead of using builds optimized to get smashed by the immortal sentry all in.
Although I'm more hesitant than you are to say "ZERG MUST DO THIS" I agree theres a fundamental mindset problem with a lot of zerg. And its "expand at all costs". Expanding so fast is trading off safety for economy, so its going to be punishable. And pro-level Protoss players have found one of the best ways to punish it is the immortal-sentry all in. As you said: stronger than traditional early all-ins but faster hitting than later timings.
A while back I was running a build I picked up from someone who had studied Tails' play. It was a delayed 4-gate off the back of an expansion which if I remember right was designed to hit very shortly after the zerg third finished (assuming the instant "build 3rd as soon as Protoss starts natural" response). In essence it was a 1-gate by nexus expand into a three-gateway complete wall-off at the natural with a 4-gateway attack in conjunction with either getting a Twilight Council (for a follow up, DTs were really good because if you'd done damage but not killed they often just weren't able to handle them; didn't have the money or tech for detection due to panic response to your earlier attack) or a Forge (in case of counterattack response).
I had a LOT of people raging about 4-gate cheeses and a few asking how to beat it. I told them they just needed a bit of tech, roaches perhaps, and they'd hold. That the build was DESIGNED to punish a greedy third and that if they held off just a little to get some defensive units I'd be unable to do anything. The general response? "You started building a natural, if I don't expand right then I die!" And this is from Gold and Plat level players. I mean seriously...you're not going to lose the game by getting a Roach warren up before your third.
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lol if you take a super late third, theyre just going to take standard 3rd with robo, and then do a strong colosus immortal sentry sstalker push on 3rd/4th that u cant stop
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what if FF had two steps to be casted. At first FF splits units like its now, but units can move in it for like 0.5 sek (time is a thing to balance) after that 0.5 sek FF splits units again (based on new position) and become solid. This short time would allow zergs with good reaction time to move at least some of units to the right side of it and not be trapped and allow some FF baiting, FF would be a little more commital and would requier some more movment prediciot from toss (also in PvT matchup).
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On November 27 2012 20:29 Lightspeaker wrote:
Although I'm more hesitant than you are to say "ZERG MUST DO THIS" I agree theres a fundamental mindset problem with a lot of zerg. And its "expand at all costs". Expanding so fast is trading off safety for economy, so its going to be punishable. And pro-level Protoss players have found one of the best ways to punish it is the immortal-sentry all in. As you said: stronger than traditional early all-ins but faster hitting than later timings.
Throughout WoL the argument not to expand so fast to not die to timings has popped up again and again. Whether it was Zerg vs 2rax, 3 CC vs roach/baneling, or Protoss vs Terran's 1/1/1, people were always yelling to not expand so fast to better defend. It's been proven again and again that you can get away with these early expansions after some time and experience with them. I really doubt the immortal/sentry all-in will break that mold. Maybe it will come down to Zergs getting earlier speed and cutting back on a few drones, but people will figure out more and more how to better defeat it while still keeping that early third.
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On November 27 2012 18:31 GosuNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 11:35 BigBossX wrote:On November 27 2012 10:56 Rassy wrote:
Protoss has to micro, zerg has to macro and a-move and terran,well i dunno they a bit in the middle.
That the races are different, and that protoss can micro more then zerg i dont realy find a valid point.
It seems to be the way the game is set up, with clear differences between all 3 races, not just 3 basicly the same races with only different units. i kinda like this.
It's the fact toss HAS to micro (if that's what you call it) and zerg CANNOT micro. There should be a balance, not A race plays like THIS, B race plays like THAT and that's the end of the story. Zerg should be able to micro to win battles not rely on protoss mis-microing forcefield. Did you even read the fucking op? um, he just said exactly what you said.... The only difference is he said that he likes that the 3 races are different in that way. Basically if you want to micro you play protoss.
The problem with that is Zerg at the very highest level are frustrated they can't do anything micro wise to kill toss who are performing with relatively perfect micro, and Protoss below the very highest level are frustrated that they have to micro so much while zerg can a-move.
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On November 27 2012 18:31 GosuNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 11:35 BigBossX wrote:On November 27 2012 10:56 Rassy wrote:
Protoss has to micro, zerg has to macro and a-move and terran,well i dunno they a bit in the middle.
That the races are different, and that protoss can micro more then zerg i dont realy find a valid point.
It seems to be the way the game is set up, with clear differences between all 3 races, not just 3 basicly the same races with only different units. i kinda like this.
It's the fact toss HAS to micro (if that's what you call it) and zerg CANNOT micro. There should be a balance, not A race plays like THIS, B race plays like THAT and that's the end of the story. Zerg should be able to micro to win battles not rely on protoss mis-microing forcefield. Did you even read the fucking op? um, he just said exactly what you said.... The only difference is he said that he likes that the 3 races are different in that way. Basically if you want to micro you play protoss.
That's not what I am saying. I'm saying both races should be able to micro, not zerg CAN'T micro, and toss MUST micro. Reading, try it some time.
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Simple. No FF on creep (that is creep directly expanding from a hatchery, not tumor related creep).
This way P keeps all the options at home for defends and also for say mid-map encounters. Z is free from cheesy ramp blocks at main and natural and may have more of a chance vs the immortal-sentry all-in.
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I know how to fix this!
Remove FF, Remove Warp Gate, Rebalance protoss units/production along with the other precariously balanced units like the Infestor.
I believe this would allow zergs to have much more ability to micro and be efficient against a mid/late game protoss army (including cutting off reinforcements because of no warp gate), and as well protoss would no longer need to have aggressive and defensive timings with FF's in order to be successfull. This would include rebalancing the units of other races to create a new more stable balance than currently exists along with more diverse options for play style.
In order to do this (without protoss players drinking the cool-aid), blizzard should come up with some story line hooey in LotV like Aiur gets attacked or something, and the warp gate/ ff technology gets damaged/destroyed and the protoss then have to re-work their military.
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On November 28 2012 03:04 Hetz wrote:
Simple. No FF on creep (that is creep directly expanding from a hatchery, not tumor related creep).
This way P keeps all the options at home for defends and also for say mid-map encounters. Z is free from cheesy ramp blocks at main and natural and may have more of a chance vs the immortal-sentry all-in.
That doesn't change the fundamental problem of FFs being necessary and, in large numbers, impossible to micro against.
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On November 28 2012 02:33 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 18:31 GosuNinja wrote:On November 27 2012 11:35 BigBossX wrote:On November 27 2012 10:56 Rassy wrote:
Protoss has to micro, zerg has to macro and a-move and terran,well i dunno they a bit in the middle.
That the races are different, and that protoss can micro more then zerg i dont realy find a valid point.
It seems to be the way the game is set up, with clear differences between all 3 races, not just 3 basicly the same races with only different units. i kinda like this.
It's the fact toss HAS to micro (if that's what you call it) and zerg CANNOT micro. There should be a balance, not A race plays like THIS, B race plays like THAT and that's the end of the story. Zerg should be able to micro to win battles not rely on protoss mis-microing forcefield. Did you even read the fucking op? um, he just said exactly what you said.... The only difference is he said that he likes that the 3 races are different in that way. Basically if you want to micro you play protoss. That's not what I am saying. I'm saying both races should be able to micro, not zerg CAN'T micro, and toss MUST micro. Reading, try it some time.
lol are u serious? "The only difference is he said that he likes that the 3 races are different in that way" come on dude, take your own advice.
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On November 28 2012 07:33 GosuNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 02:33 BigBossX wrote:On November 27 2012 18:31 GosuNinja wrote:On November 27 2012 11:35 BigBossX wrote:On November 27 2012 10:56 Rassy wrote:
Protoss has to micro, zerg has to macro and a-move and terran,well i dunno they a bit in the middle.
That the races are different, and that protoss can micro more then zerg i dont realy find a valid point.
It seems to be the way the game is set up, with clear differences between all 3 races, not just 3 basicly the same races with only different units. i kinda like this.
It's the fact toss HAS to micro (if that's what you call it) and zerg CANNOT micro. There should be a balance, not A race plays like THIS, B race plays like THAT and that's the end of the story. Zerg should be able to micro to win battles not rely on protoss mis-microing forcefield. Did you even read the fucking op? um, he just said exactly what you said.... The only difference is he said that he likes that the 3 races are different in that way. Basically if you want to micro you play protoss. That's not what I am saying. I'm saying both races should be able to micro, not zerg CAN'T micro, and toss MUST micro. Reading, try it some time. lol are u serious? "The only difference is he said that he likes that the 3 races are different in that way" come on dude, take your own advice.
And I'm saying the 3 races SHOULDN'T BE DIFFERENT IN THAT WAY. How hard is that to understand? how many times do I have to say it?
" protoss can micro more then zerg i dont realy find a valid point."
It IS a valid point.
"not just 3 basicly the same races with only different units. i kinda like this."
Except it should be this way. Not terran has to hit a mid game timing or lose. Not that protoss has to micro perfectly or lose. And most definitely not that zerg has to HOPE protoss doesn't micro perfectly or lose.
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Can't zergs use Ultralisks to break forcefields?
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no, Ultralisks obviously can't break forcefields since they are too ugly. They flee their own mirror reflection in the shiny Field!
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I read as much as I can, but didn't see this suggestion. What if force fields could be targeted and have like a few hundred shield points. Would still be useful but might spark some new creative meta ideas especially in HotS.
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On November 28 2012 15:50 Bobthetart wrote:
I read as much as I can, but didn't see this suggestion. What if force fields could be targeted and have like a few hundred shield points. Would still be useful but might spark some new creative meta ideas especially in HotS.
I think the only new meta it would spark is that terran just mass marines early and attacks every single game. If you can't hold a ramp against marines then they will win every game.
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i dont know...maybe make forcefields able to destroy? like psionic shield barrier with x hp. at start almost no change in metagame, mid game roach/terran bio able to destroy them, lategame micro positional thing. however it will scale with protoss shields upg. i know its hard to manage how many hp forcefields will have/buff sentry dps or so cuz when forcefields will be destroyed ...well u know, hard time for toss.
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Interesting post, and interesting preposition, if the force field changes, the entire game will change too... maybe if the ff requires more energy to be used, idk... it's difficult to find an aswer.
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On November 28 2012 03:29 FlilFlam wrote:
I know how to fix this!
Remove FF, Remove Warp Gate, Rebalance protoss units/production along with the other precariously balanced units like the Infestor.
I believe this would allow zergs to have much more ability to micro and be efficient against a mid/late game protoss army (including cutting off reinforcements because of no warp gate), and as well protoss would no longer need to have aggressive and defensive timings with FF's in order to be successfull. This would include rebalancing the units of other races to create a new more stable balance than currently exists along with more diverse options for play style.
In order to do this (without protoss players drinking the cool-aid), blizzard should come up with some story line hooey in LotV like Aiur gets attacked or something, and the warp gate/ ff technology gets damaged/destroyed and the protoss then have to re-work their military.
Removing Warp Gate is bad. You sometimes just need warp ins against drops for example. BUT I think you could buff gateway production and nerf warpgate production, you could create a certain balance between those two. So as a perfect solution you start off by using gateways, later on you get some warpgates in addition but still keep some gateways, switching how you need them. This would also make PvP more stable and nerf allins. 
Rebalancing protoss units for a game without ff will be really hard i feel.
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EPT
