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On November 18 2012 21:49 Mandalor wrote:
totally agree with this. But it would be extremely hard to fix this, I feel.
Maybe nerf ff (reduce their size, slow units and not block them, 2 ff max for a sentry, ...) and buff zealot stalker. Bunkers would have to be buffed as well then, I guess.
Increase size, slow units, make sentry a flying unit.
Oh wait, oracles.
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Honestly, it would be much better if the Twilight Council upgrades for Zealot and Stalker were the things that escalate protoss tier 1 to an equal level with Zerg and Terran, and Sentry was strictly relegated to being a defensive tool. If they buff Zealot charge, and maybe give Stalkers a second upgrade (Blink is really nice though), Sentries could see a movement speed nerf, or mana cost nerf and Protoss could just phase them out. Luckily, Sentry requires no specific tech, so I don't see it being an issue to have Sentries early.
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On November 18 2012 22:32 Big-t wrote:
I agree with Morrow. How about making FFs a slow and lower the sentry costs to 50/50. With the lower gas-costs they would be also more available in the late game.
lol you are suggesting this as if its no big deal. you can't just come up with a random solution by throwing around numbers and then hope it's fixed
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I think the OP make some fair points, but overall I don't think the problem is with the spells ie forcefield or fungal.
If you look at every PvZ in this tournament, 2 facts are obvious:
1- nothing happens in the first 8 min of the game (as far as interactions go)
2- if the protoss have at any point up until broodlords higher/equal supply to the zerg, then the zerg is in trouble
For me that means that on one hand FFE is a bad strategy that consist in letting your opponent do whatever he wishes to during 8 minutes, and that on the other hand protoss units are overall much stronger than their zerg counterparts up until bl.
Forcefield is a great spell that boost positioning, allowing for protoss units to have even more effectiveness. But why do they have to rely so heavily on it is that because despite doing the seemingly most economically focused strat in the P arsenal (FFE) they have no way of preventing the zerg to be even more greedy, as they do nothing for 7 minutes.
If you take any other strategy game, like go or chess, and the opponent knows the 10 first move that you are going to make no matter what, of course he is going to exploit it and set up a perfect counter.
In the end, the only way for a FFE protoss to win is to rely on an all in. No other strat seems to work (look at hero vs sen game 5). By definition an all in is a VERY strong attack, and that the strenght of it is in the positional edge given by the forcefields does not mean that it is not a legitimate strenght.
In the end, I feel like protoss should find ways to disturb the zerg before the 8 min. If they did invest in earlier agression, they would not have the gas to make so many sentries early, and the game could not be decided by an all-in.
Basically the Z's edge is his econ (larvae mechanics) and the P's edge is his units strenght. Both should use them and try to prevent the opponent from using his.
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Blizzard said many times that they loooooove forcefields...
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Why not just decrease their time?
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We will see. I am confident players like HyuN and Life will figure something out.
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On November 18 2012 22:40 tMomiji wrote:
Why not just decrease their time?
That means 4 gate wars will happen again in every pvp...
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Agreed, thanks for posting. I remember Gretorp's post about the problems with vortex, fungal and force field and found it regrettable that the discussion seems to center only on fungal lately. I'm a zerg player, but I'm not looking for an advantage, nerf infestors all you want, but force fields are the single one thing in this game that I constantly find frustrating, as a viewer and as a player.
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This has been my empirical thesis I've been developing over the course of the last three months:
TvZ is balanced assuming terran has unlimited skill, and PvZ has im a early game toss rushes and nearly impossible to beat lategame zerg armies.
It's rough, and I don't know how to fix it at all but changing protoss would be the best catalyst for pvz and changing terran underused t3 would be the best catalyst for making tvz more forgiving.
+1
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Definitely a significant proportion of games are like MorroW described and its a major problem. The map pool doesn't really support diversity and so the meta game's a little stale.
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On November 18 2012 21:49 cythaze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 21:45 randoomguy wrote:
welcome to tvz for a terran player actually: no, this isnt the same. tvz its atleast splitting/target fireing vs hitting fungals and getting good surrounds/baneling connections. If both players just amove into each other the battle is never as onesided as a pvz battle where the protoss player is lacking forcefields in the situation the op is describing.
No, it's even more onesided. Clumped bio vs fungal and banelings, that battle is over in 1/10th of the time that the PvZ battle will take.
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Italy12248 Posts
I'd like to add that the reliance of Protoss in PvZ on FF's also heavily constricts map design.
On maps without a couple of easily defendable chokes it's so hard to defend a third (because you need more and more precise) ff's, that Protoss doesn't even bother with it, and instead just 2base all-ins literally every game.
We have seen this time and time again, from Crossfire to Dual Sight to Bel'shir Beach, even including "modern" maps like Abyssal City and Bel'Shir Vestige.
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On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.
Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.
That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.
Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Next time try to actually read the text wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed
He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it.
Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people.
How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans.
Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.
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Spells should limit opponents but also give them new opportunities to micro, think of storm and dark swarm. Both force fields and fungal are too restrictive in that sense. BroodWar had a couple of these spells too but they were high tier and uncommon enough to be met with excitement (lock-down, stasis). As soon as your backbone units enforce this kind of restrictiveness en mass it hurts the gameplay possibilities.
It's not an easy thing to fix but it is important to create awareness for, and a good read nonetheless.
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On November 18 2012 22:41 Gladiator333 wrote:That means 4 gate wars will happen again in every pvp...
Pretty bad rebuttle considering how easy - or hard - 4 gate is to hold all depending on your build or map presence. Just to help you understand.. you can 11 gate 2 zeal 2 stalker sentry robo immortal before a 4 gate even touches ur ramp if u control the map right.. there are other similar builds without that fast of a gate as well you just dont see any of them anymore because if people cheese they do korean 3 gate or something.
In response to the other guy.. yeah.. there is a beta of a game they could be redesigning toss, or anything else, out already any other excuse? lol
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So according to the OP zerg only has broodlords, infestors and corrupters. Maybe thats where the problem lies?
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On November 18 2012 22:41 Gladiator333 wrote:That means 4 gate wars will happen again in every pvp...
exactly... just bad game design
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On November 18 2012 22:48 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.
Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.
That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.
Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Next time try to actually read the text wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it. Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people. How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans. Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.
Again, read the post. It's not just about the all-in. You're not being reasonable at all.
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On November 18 2012 22:53 DaCruise wrote:
So according to the OP zerg only needs broodlords, infestors and corrupters. Maybe thats where the problem lies?
Fixt.
And to reiterate off my other post. Im not saying the mechanic is bad game design. Im just saying its not op
@Exo...
Ive read both the posts. Im only choosing to comment on a specific part. I agree that the game design is bad. I agree that limiting the your opponents micro is bad. It doesn't change the fact that he posted this due to watching an all-in succeed. Outside of that all-in, their is no imbalance like he implies imo. Valid game design complaints are at best what this thread is. And sorry, after reading his mech post Im going to take anything he says with a grain of salt
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EPT
