• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:01
CEST 23:01
KST 06:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week0Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer7Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14
StarCraft 2
General
Rain's Behind the Scenes Storytime Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals
Tourneys
$3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Which UAE App Developers Are Leading the Innovatio
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Echoes of Revolution and Separation Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 32851 users

A fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 29 30 31 Next All
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
November 18 2012 13:33 GMT
#41
On November 18 2012 21:49 Mandalor wrote:
totally agree with this. But it would be extremely hard to fix this, I feel.
Maybe nerf ff (reduce their size, slow units and not block them, 2 ff max for a sentry, ...) and buff zealot stalker. Bunkers would have to be buffed as well then, I guess.



Increase size, slow units, make sentry a flying unit.

Oh wait, oracles.
Cereal
Virid
Profile Joined November 2010
United States130 Posts
November 18 2012 13:34 GMT
#42
Honestly, it would be much better if the Twilight Council upgrades for Zealot and Stalker were the things that escalate protoss tier 1 to an equal level with Zerg and Terran, and Sentry was strictly relegated to being a defensive tool. If they buff Zealot charge, and maybe give Stalkers a second upgrade (Blink is really nice though), Sentries could see a movement speed nerf, or mana cost nerf and Protoss could just phase them out. Luckily, Sentry requires no specific tech, so I don't see it being an issue to have Sentries early.
Kaitokid
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany1327 Posts
November 18 2012 13:35 GMT
#43
On November 18 2012 22:32 Big-t wrote:
I agree with Morrow. How about making FFs a slow and lower the sentry costs to 50/50. With the lower gas-costs they would be also more available in the late game.


lol you are suggesting this as if its no big deal. you can't just come up with a random solution by throwing around numbers and then hope it's fixed
Elitios
Profile Joined February 2012
France164 Posts
November 18 2012 13:38 GMT
#44
I think the OP make some fair points, but overall I don't think the problem is with the spells ie forcefield or fungal.

If you look at every PvZ in this tournament, 2 facts are obvious:
1- nothing happens in the first 8 min of the game (as far as interactions go)
2- if the protoss have at any point up until broodlords higher/equal supply to the zerg, then the zerg is in trouble

For me that means that on one hand FFE is a bad strategy that consist in letting your opponent do whatever he wishes to during 8 minutes, and that on the other hand protoss units are overall much stronger than their zerg counterparts up until bl.

Forcefield is a great spell that boost positioning, allowing for protoss units to have even more effectiveness. But why do they have to rely so heavily on it is that because despite doing the seemingly most economically focused strat in the P arsenal (FFE) they have no way of preventing the zerg to be even more greedy, as they do nothing for 7 minutes.

If you take any other strategy game, like go or chess, and the opponent knows the 10 first move that you are going to make no matter what, of course he is going to exploit it and set up a perfect counter.

In the end, the only way for a FFE protoss to win is to rely on an all in. No other strat seems to work (look at hero vs sen game 5). By definition an all in is a VERY strong attack, and that the strenght of it is in the positional edge given by the forcefields does not mean that it is not a legitimate strenght.

In the end, I feel like protoss should find ways to disturb the zerg before the 8 min. If they did invest in earlier agression, they would not have the gas to make so many sentries early, and the game could not be decided by an all-in.

Basically the Z's edge is his econ (larvae mechanics) and the P's edge is his units strenght. Both should use them and try to prevent the opponent from using his.
Jetaap
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France4814 Posts
November 18 2012 13:39 GMT
#45
Blizzard said many times that they loooooove forcefields...
tMomiji
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1115 Posts
November 18 2012 13:40 GMT
#46
Why not just decrease their time?
"I wonder if there is a league below copper? If so, I would like to inhabit it." -TotalBiscuit "In the event of a sudden change in cabin pressure, ROOF FLIES OFF!" -George Carlin <3 HerO <3 Kiwikaki <3 MKP
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
November 18 2012 13:40 GMT
#47
We will see. I am confident players like HyuN and Life will figure something out.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
November 18 2012 13:41 GMT
#48
On November 18 2012 22:40 tMomiji wrote:
Why not just decrease their time?


That means 4 gate wars will happen again in every pvp...
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
FrogOfWar
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany1406 Posts
November 18 2012 13:41 GMT
#49
Agreed, thanks for posting. I remember Gretorp's post about the problems with vortex, fungal and force field and found it regrettable that the discussion seems to center only on fungal lately. I'm a zerg player, but I'm not looking for an advantage, nerf infestors all you want, but force fields are the single one thing in this game that I constantly find frustrating, as a viewer and as a player.
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
November 18 2012 13:42 GMT
#50
This has been my empirical thesis I've been developing over the course of the last three months:

TvZ is balanced assuming terran has unlimited skill, and PvZ has im a early game toss rushes and nearly impossible to beat lategame zerg armies.

It's rough, and I don't know how to fix it at all but changing protoss would be the best catalyst for pvz and changing terran underused t3 would be the best catalyst for making tvz more forgiving.

+1
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
Dr.Sin
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1126 Posts
November 18 2012 13:44 GMT
#51
Definitely a significant proportion of games are like MorroW described and its a major problem. The map pool doesn't really support diversity and so the meta game's a little stale.
gillon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 13:45:07
November 18 2012 13:44 GMT
#52
On November 18 2012 21:49 cythaze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2012 21:45 randoomguy wrote:
welcome to tvz for a terran player


actually: no, this isnt the same. tvz its atleast splitting/target fireing vs hitting fungals and getting good surrounds/baneling connections. If both players just amove into each other the battle is never as onesided as a pvz battle where the protoss player is lacking forcefields in the situation the op is describing.


No, it's even more onesided. Clumped bio vs fungal and banelings, that battle is over in 1/10th of the time that the PvZ battle will take.
www.teamproperty.net | "You should hate losing, but you should never fear defeat." - 이윤열
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 14:01:07
November 18 2012 13:46 GMT
#53
I'd like to add that the reliance of Protoss in PvZ on FF's also heavily constricts map design.

On maps without a couple of easily defendable chokes it's so hard to defend a third (because you need more and more precise) ff's, that Protoss doesn't even bother with it, and instead just 2base all-ins literally every game.

We have seen this time and time again, from Crossfire to Dual Sight to Bel'shir Beach, even including "modern" maps like Abyssal City and Bel'Shir Vestige.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
ohampatu
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1448 Posts
November 18 2012 13:48 GMT
#54
On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:
On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:
On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.

Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.

That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.

Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game.

Next time try to actually read the text


wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one.

It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed



He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it.

Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people.

How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans.

Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.
I am become death, for I am the destroyer of worlds.....You will be missed KT Violet!!!
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 13:50:15
November 18 2012 13:49 GMT
#55
Spells should limit opponents but also give them new opportunities to micro, think of storm and dark swarm. Both force fields and fungal are too restrictive in that sense. BroodWar had a couple of these spells too but they were high tier and uncommon enough to be met with excitement (lock-down, stasis). As soon as your backbone units enforce this kind of restrictiveness en mass it hurts the gameplay possibilities.

It's not an easy thing to fix but it is important to create awareness for, and a good read nonetheless.
Administrator
-Kyo-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan1926 Posts
November 18 2012 13:51 GMT
#56
On November 18 2012 22:41 Gladiator333 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2012 22:40 tMomiji wrote:
Why not just decrease their time?


That means 4 gate wars will happen again in every pvp...

Pretty bad rebuttle considering how easy - or hard - 4 gate is to hold all depending on your build or map presence. Just to help you understand.. you can 11 gate 2 zeal 2 stalker sentry robo immortal before a 4 gate even touches ur ramp if u control the map right.. there are other similar builds without that fast of a gate as well you just dont see any of them anymore because if people cheese they do korean 3 gate or something.

In response to the other guy.. yeah.. there is a beta of a game they could be redesigning toss, or anything else, out already any other excuse? lol
Anime is cuter than you. Legacy of the Void GM Protoss Gameplay: twitch.tv/kyo7763 youtube.com/user/KyoStarcraft/
TL+ Member
DaCruise
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark2457 Posts
November 18 2012 13:53 GMT
#57
So according to the OP zerg only has broodlords, infestors and corrupters. Maybe thats where the problem lies?
leo23
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3075 Posts
November 18 2012 13:54 GMT
#58
On November 18 2012 22:41 Gladiator333 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2012 22:40 tMomiji wrote:
Why not just decrease their time?


That means 4 gate wars will happen again in every pvp...


exactly... just bad game design
banelings
Exoteric
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia2330 Posts
November 18 2012 13:54 GMT
#59
On November 18 2012 22:48 ohampatu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:
On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:
On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:
On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.

Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.

That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.

Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game.

Next time try to actually read the text


wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one.

It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed



He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it.

Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people.

How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans.

Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.


Again, read the post. It's not just about the all-in. You're not being reasonable at all.
hell is other people
ohampatu
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1448 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-18 13:56:47
November 18 2012 13:54 GMT
#60
On November 18 2012 22:53 DaCruise wrote:
So according to the OP zerg only needs broodlords, infestors and corrupters. Maybe thats where the problem lies?



Fixt.

And to reiterate off my other post. Im not saying the mechanic is bad game design. Im just saying its not op

@Exo...

Ive read both the posts. Im only choosing to comment on a specific part. I agree that the game design is bad. I agree that limiting the your opponents micro is bad. It doesn't change the fact that he posted this due to watching an all-in succeed. Outside of that all-in, their is no imbalance like he implies imo. Valid game design complaints are at best what this thread is. And sorry, after reading his mech post Im going to take anything he says with a grain of salt
I am become death, for I am the destroyer of worlds.....You will be missed KT Violet!!!
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 29 30 31 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 337
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 120
League of Legends
Trikslyr59
Counter-Strike
fl0m1819
Stewie2K983
flusha575
Super Smash Bros
PPMD70
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu668
Other Games
tarik_tv25756
FrodaN1822
C9.Mang0667
mouzStarbuck439
Mew2King96
shahzam69
Sick65
UpATreeSC61
ProTech59
RushiSC46
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 39
• Reevou 5
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Eskiya23 21
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21430
League of Legends
• TFBlade1727
Other Games
• imaqtpie1778
• Scarra851
• Shiphtur339
• WagamamaTV248
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h
RSL Revival
13h
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
WardiTV Qualifier
19h
PiGosaur Monday
1d 3h
RSL Revival
1d 13h
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Harstem vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
SC Evo League
4 days
Circuito Brasileiro de…
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-11
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.