EPTI kind of feel like its the same for TvP lol
A fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 2
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
I kind of feel like its the same for TvP lol | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
 The difference between a stephano/life and a morrow/idra is battle micro. Stephano wins many of these engagements even after hitting a bunch of supply blocks. Hitting from 3 sides with optimal geography and then pulling back away from the forcefields, targeting sentries with the trapped units, slowing the advance. Sure you can win by 1A+hope he fucks up, but thats the strat for those of us in the lower leagues, you pro's gotta do better. It's just not possible to change FF without throwing everything out and starting over. You'd have to do all kinds of other stuff. Changing forcefield will straight up kill protoss in early game PvT, it's already desperate with them. Roaches would need a massive nerf, which is only going to make 5-7 gate timings stupid strong, so you'd have to change warpgate to make it weaker at range/or require warp prisms somehow if too far from base. While you're at it throw dragoons (or some other effective 10-15 minute AA) back in so mutas don't mean 3rds have to be hugging the crap out of the main base for PvZ. Late game massed infestor is a bigger problem for the matchup than zerg not wanting to micro or setup engagements from multiple directions. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
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Sepi
Finland231 Posts
On November 18 2012 21:52 Fenrax wrote: Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against. That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight. This. If you remove even little the players ability to improve in name of micro, so whats the point of these spells? Offc you can try to pick your fights, but thats about it. Offc. in the original there was stasis field, which did something similiar, but it didnt kill a BUNCH of units, or deny vital ghost emps and trap fe. vikings and mothership. That was clear and good design. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'. You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out. That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base. Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1927 Posts
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NotoriousBig
Germany301 Posts
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Split.
Switzerland234 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote: Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently. Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'. You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out. That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base. Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Next time try to actually read the text | ||
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leo23
United States3075 Posts
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:23 Gladiator333 wrote: Too much work to do something about forcefields, I think it's better to balance the metagame around maps. but that still isn't going to fix this lame aspact of the game. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The worst thing about it all is that it makes both sides unable to retreat in fights because the sentries are slow so P can't retreat yet zerg can't really dance back and forth either because the units get cut off. Also it forces the maps to have certain setups like a third that is choked enough etc. most times maps have been removed from the pool was because they were unbalanced in ZvP. I don't think forcefield will be removed or altered heavily in HotS nor should it be. I'd just like to see changes that would make mass sentries uneffective like it should be, ie there should be abilities or units that invalidate FF making mass sentry unviable. Further more it would be great if sentryless play would actually be possible so protoss could compete on open maps too which would both open the variety for protoss itself but also in the map pool. All in all I think two changes are neccesary: - Zerg should be able to 'counter' mass forcefield earlier in the game. All the options that do now are not effective enough or come too late in the game. From what I've played the swarm host doesn't help much either here because I think it just comes just a tad late for mass sentry pushes nor does it make ff useless, in fact containing the locusts with ff and killing the hosts is very good. A couple solutions are possible but not of them ideal: roach burrow movement can be buffed by making it faster but removing the extra healing or letting it crush FFs when you unburrow underneath them, that way zerg can counter the mass FF by the 11 min mark. Another possiblity is just buffing the hydra a little bit, it's range already makes it counter FF by some degree and if they just had something like +10 hp they would be a viable option ZvP. Queens being massive could also be a cute way to solve the problem but it has weird implications on P air vs zerg (can't lift queen anymore but voidray and tempest get stronger). If only the swarm host had been the lurker... It would have been cooler and would be such a sweet and simple solution to mass sentry balls. - Protoss should be able to play without sentries against zerg, that way maps can open up and you'd automatically see mass sentry less often because it wouldn't be good anyway on those open maps. Mothership core helps a bit already for defending the third and ideally zealot based armies get a bit more viable in PvZ. At the moment that's not really happening though in HotS because roaches/hydra stomp zealots way too hard with some simple kiting, something that hydra's can even do off creep now. Time warp could be the elegant solution for this but it's not good enough at the moment, the effect should cling to units or something really because fast units like roaches just move out of it way too fast. It's hard to make time warp good though without breaking it in PvT or in conjunction with storm. At the moment it's looking rather grim for HotS though, sentries remain just as strong early on perhaps even stronger in PvZ and the mothership core only promotes sentry pushes even more. Since you'll be having the MsC anyway why would you not do a sentry push every game now.. It's completely safe, does garanteed damage (by forcing Z to make units) and the MsC interacts perfect with your clumped up sentry/stalker ball. Sentries even provide superb scouting for free now and have more lategame use just holding off locusts for a while. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:23 Gladiator333 wrote: Too much work to do something about forcefields, I think it's better to balance the metagame around maps. Arnt the maps already build this way because FF will otherwhise be too weak? And as stated, if FF get any weaker, zerg (and probably Terran), will just overrun Protoss. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1927 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:23 leo23 wrote: Fungal and forcefield is just the bane of SC2, and if you want to change forcefields you would have to redesign P entirely. Is this a legit argument? You are saying we clearly have a broken game but it takes too much time to fix sooo... o well.. or; lets try something else.. The best answer always has been and always will be pro-active patching which apparently everyone is too lazy to do >> | ||
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Split.
Switzerland234 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote: wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
e.g. Fungal now acts like a plague - cast it on one unit, it does damage and spreads to a nearby unit. It still punishes units clumped up and rewards spreading out, but you can micro vs it Forcefield just change it to a field you cast in a location which increases the damage taken by enemy units. With the right numbers i can't see it screwing balance all that much, might change the metagame but is that so bad? | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:29 -Kyo- wrote: Is this a legit argument? You are saying we clearly have a broken game but it takes too much time to fix sooo... o well.. or; lets try something else.. The best answer always has been and always will be pro-active patching which apparently everyone is too lazy to do >> In 4 months what more can you do... A protoss redesign would need another year of beta. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1351 Posts
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote: Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently. Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'. You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out. That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base. Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Great idea, would never think of it. Could you please provide a gm lvl replay of you smashing that all in with 20 lings ? | ||
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