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On November 18 2012 22:48 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.
Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.
That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.
Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Next time try to actually read the text wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it. Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people. How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans. Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.
No, he's complaining about a game element designed to make micro from one side irrelevant.
Forcefields are bad because they make the engagement down to PROTOSS micro, not micro from both players.
Just like fungal often brings ZvT down to micro from one player (the terran) with regards to avoiding the fungal.
He's not complaining about sentries because of an all in, he's complaining about an element of game design which is around taking away half of the game (one player's skill) and making it all about his opponents skill to win or fuck up.
You seem to be focusing on the immortal all-in, Morrow did not, he just mentioned it as the re-inspiration for the discussion, which is not at all a new discussion, and is the same issue which as been around since GSL season 1 (well, since SC2 existed).
If you want a tl'dr of his op,. here it is:
Forcefield sucks because it removes the ability of the zerg to micro, and makes the game all about whether the protoss can put down good FF or not.
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This is such an awkward problem.
Keep the FF as it is and have Zerg melt in seconds.
Alter the FF and have Protoss melt in seconds.
This ability is ridiculous, no single spell should govern the outcome of a game so harshly (except "Hero" units, possibly). So, I think we're seeing this the wrong way. There's no need to change the FF in any way, we just need to give Zerg more tactical choices against it rather than simply evading them.
A possible solution would be to make some early/early mid game unit massive. Making Hydralisks massive (would probably require a change in design) would make them more viable without necessarily buffing them and would give Zerg a choice to sacrifice a few of its units to stomp the forcefields. The biggest problem here is, of course, that some units get an unfair damage advantage against Massive.
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On November 18 2012 22:48 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.
Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.
That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.
Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Next time try to actually read the text wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it. Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people. How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans. Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.
sorry about that
my posts and thoughts on mech not working out in beta is not actually whine and its something even dustin browder states to be not working in this interview
http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-wings-of-liberty/videos/dustin-browder-talks-about-heart-of-the-swarm-esports-and-more-6400295/
+ Show Spoiler +
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And i posted in your beta threads. And have even made posts in the beta forum about buffing mech LOL
So uhhh, idk why your saying that. im just saying every time you make a complaint, its off the crux of some 'imbalance' you perceive.
Yes forcefields limit micro. Yes it sucks. Yes alot of units are bad game design.
No its not imbalanced. Thats all im saying. Calm down.
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On November 18 2012 22:48 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.
Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.
That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.
Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Next time try to actually read the text wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it. Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people. How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans. Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not a high level player, but isn't this so obvious that we should assume pros have tried it? I think zergs stay in their base so long because they struggle to pump enough units. If you move out with too few units, you're not really slowing him down but take a high risk of throwing away units you need to survive. We saw that over and over in WCS.
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On November 18 2012 22:55 Lonyo wrote:
He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it.
Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people.
How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans.
Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time.
No, he's complaining about a game element designed to make micro from one side irrelevant.
Forcefields are bad because they make the engagement down to PROTOSS micro, not micro from both players.
Just like fungal often brings ZvT down to micro from one player (the terran) with regards to avoiding the fungal.
He's not complaining about sentries because of an all in, he's complaining about an element of game design which is around taking away half of the game (one player's skill) and making it all about his opponents skill to win or fuck up.
You seem to be focusing on the immortal all-in, Morrow did not, he just mentioned it as the re-inspiration for the discussion, which is not at all a new discussion, and is the same issue which as been around since GSL season 1 (well, since SC2 existed).
If you want a tl'dr of his op,. here it is:
Forcefield sucks because it removes the ability of the zerg to micro, and makes the game all about whether the protoss can put down good FF or not.
Only difference being that a forcefield doesn't always trap units, usually only blocks. A fungal is even worse in this regard because you can't move at all, and it does damage to boot.
Zerg and Terran can escape, either through burrow, as well as movement, and being picked up in medivacs. Both of these points alleviate the "no micro" argument. Protoss has no such way out though.
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On November 18 2012 23:02 divito wrote:
Only difference being that a forcefield doesn't always trap units, usually only blocks. A fungal is even worse in this regard because you can't move at all, and it does damage to boot.
Zerg and Terran can escape, either through burrow, as well as movement, and being picked up in medivacs. Both of these points alleviate the "no micro" argument. Protoss has no such way out though.
Although of course you are right that both burrow as well as medivacs are the leftover micro actions that can help, I feel like you are missing a realistic game approach when using them as counter arguments. Take burrow for example you can't have it very early in the game, and late in the game with large armies you lose more from burrowing than you do from fighting. Because of this the timeframe where forcefields increase micro from a Zerg is rare and limited.
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its also a huge issue for mapmaking....we are forced to design maps in a certain way just because of this spell.
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ive always felt that FF should have a health limit (the size of however many seconds its there), that automatically depletes 1 health for each second until the health is gone (then the FF disappears). Then, you should be able to target fire FF, depleting the health faster, and making it not so impossible to micro around perfect FF placements. Even semi-decent FF placements makes it incredibly hard for Z to micro anything. Therefore this would reward very strong Z micro with target firing and swarming through the holes you make (allowing for Z to actually do good damage in battles that right now are just "whoops, i guess thats a free half my army for him", and it rewards very strong P micro by keeping tabs on the health of your FF's and making sure to drop a new one behind/on top of the one that you just lost.
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As a high level random player in the past (now I play mostly zerg) I understand the problem from both sides of the matchup.
MorroW stated it very well in the thread and it makes a lot of sense, but we still have no solutions.
If looking at unit buffs and taking away the forcefield, we really need to take into account what qxc said in his first episode of "fixing the game" (if you haven't seen it, go watch it now)
If we're looking at changing forcefield and fungal (which I would greatly prefer) we need to take into account some things
1. we don't want the opponent to be helpless if the spells are cast like they are now (no movement)
(this means no projectile, because the end result is still the same)
what are some solutions then?
well I don't really know.
maybe we make the forcefield have health like entomb did so you can focus it down with decent micro
maybe in this situation we buff the stalker to do a little more damage to armored units to compensate (not affective PvT THAT much)
maybe we make fungal slow instead of snare, so you can spread to prevent chain fungals
there are a lot of possible solutions out there, and as long as blizzard recognizes the level of problem that we're at they will hopefully fix it.
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On November 18 2012 22:55 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 22:48 ohampatu wrote:On November 18 2012 22:31 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:25 Godwrath wrote:On November 18 2012 22:23 Split. wrote:On November 18 2012 22:20 ohampatu wrote:
Just feels more of your qq to me. Which is all ive seen from you in regards to the game/beta recently.
Zerg isn't playing vs sentries right. This happened at the release of the game as well, 'omg protoss and FF are soo op'.
You know how zerg learned to beat it then? They got better at scouting, got more aggressive, made protoss burn the FF's at his base when he went to move out.
That is what needs to be done now. Sac 1 or 2 overlords at the given time, then take a look at the protoss. If you scout the sentry/immortal all-in, making about 20 speelings and park them outside his base.
Im getting so tired of people calling this build OP, when it all it takes is a zerg being able to recognize the build and react properly. Dont fucking wait untill he is at the watchtower outside your base before you respond. Take control of the game. Next time try to actually read the text wonwonwon isn't 100% fireproof as the OP is trying to state. If he watched WCS he should had seen suppy vs parting game 1, those freaking inmortals had like 30 kills each one. It's about the mechanics of forcefield and not about the immortal/sentry all-in. Furthermore he doesn't even say what and how it should be changed He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it. Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people. How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans. Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time. No, he's complaining about a game element designed to make micro from one side irrelevant. Forcefields are bad because they make the engagement down to PROTOSS micro, not micro from both players.
Just like fungal often brings ZvT down to micro from one player (the terran) with regards to avoiding the fungal.He's not complaining about sentries because of an all in, he's complaining about an element of game design which is around taking away half of the game (one player's skill) and making it all about his opponents skill to win or fuck up. You seem to be focusing on the immortal all-in, Morrow did not, he just mentioned it as the re-inspiration for the discussion, which is not at all a new discussion, and is the same issue which as been around since GSL season 1 (well, since SC2 existed). If you want a tl'dr of his op,. here it is: Forcefield sucks because it removes the ability of the zerg to micro, and makes the game all about whether the protoss can put down good FF or not.
Happens to terran aswell with inmortals all ins if you don't scout. Yes they are PITA. Yes, they are badly designed abilities since they are spammable and relatively low cost. The problem is how much re-design they need, both races. Abilities that CC should be always single target imho, like lockdown. My point is the OP talking like pro level tosses just rape everybody because they have the micro to do so. It's untrue and trying to state that goes against what he is trying to explain.
The biggest problem with PvZ is it's balanced through win/rate only, when one race has a 80% chance to win before X time, and the other race has a 80% chance to win after that time, they just adjusted the timing for that happening so the win-ratio would be somewhat equal. Protoss FF is no worse than Fungal Growth, and i don't see the OP talking about it like he should when talking about anti-micro abilities.
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Thanks Morrow.
I'm sure there are many other issues, which should and have to be fixed.
we need more progamer opinions spoken publically (not in destiny's way ofc), otherwise, we end up with a shit game for the rest of its life.
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Its not like theres a great range of zerg micro being denied. Even in the rare games FFs aren't casted against zerg (or more commonly the games where they're misplaced), I _never_ feel that there is some impressive micro going on outside of maybe the first few lings OR burrow, and burrow isn't denied. Most zerg micro outside ZvZ is concentrated solely in fungal, transfuse and pre-splitting BLs, and obviously FF has little to no impact at that stage.
As a balance issue FF has a lot to answer for. But thats a longwinded explanation that FF is too good at denying surrounds, sectioning zergs armies, denying retreats and punishing positional mistakes with the end result toss being too dependant on FF and the game being frustrating to both sides. SC2 is riddled with similar problems though, the mothership/vortex -> BL/infestor relationship suffers literally the exact same problem and frustrations from both sides.
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What if the forcefields get some sort of HP, but not be a priority target.
that way people with micro can choose which forcefields they want to destroy and the shitty zerg with crappy micro will just continue to run his zerg units into the forcefield needlessly.
i dont really see any other option (with my limited experience) to fixing this without completely removing the forcefield altogether.
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forcefields are the best new ability introduced imo. so unique and makes every engagement more interesting to the viewer, not just oh look he has more marauders than stalkers he stims and wins. without forcefields protoss would be absolute shit - even with a buff to their core units, which would be even more fragile since balancing that tipping point would be hard.
as for the anti micro? some of my favorite things to watch are great terran players baiting the forcefields with units and staying just outside the range, thorzaine comes to mind.
i mean its like the ONLY ability that doesn't affect units healthwise
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Watch stephano's ZvP style, he microes his units in ways most other pro zergs don't. He targetfires sentries, kites, etcetera. As for P not being strong enough after broodlords, you should watch crank play, that guy absolutely DESTROYS zerg after having fought the broodlord army head (even if he doesn't directly win the fight) through amazing usage of warp-prisms.
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On November 18 2012 23:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Although of course you are right that both burrow as well as medivacs are the leftover micro actions that can help, I feel like you are missing a realistic game approach when using them as counter arguments. Take burrow for example you can't have it very early in the game, and late in the game with large armies you lose more from burrowing than you do from fighting. Because of this the timeframe where forcefields increase micro from a Zerg is rare and limited.
That may be true.
Rather than really messing with forcefields, I have to wonder if giving them HP along with their 15 seconds would help alleviate some of the issue (I suppose similar to Entomb in HotS). It can't be so small as to be evaporated instantly in late-game armies, but it also can't be large enough to not attract being targeted down.
Similar to bringing a massive unit through a forcefield line, but in a meta where Thors and Ultras aren't really utilized (and you'd be silly to throw a Colossus away), this allows a tangible way for the opposition to not be completely stuck.
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Add a spell to a zerg unit that's hardly used at the moment and/or is currently a 1 trick pony.
Like a corruptor, overseer, changeling.
A spell that is visible on the unit, like roach tunneling claws. A spell that removes a forcefield and is balancable by tweeking the mana cost. It should probably be very high mana cost so it can't be spammed but gives zerg an escape route when he gets a forcefield donut around his army.
It should be a tech route you need to dedicate for though, which you only start when seeing lots of sentries and delays some other tech routes when you choose this one.
Gives more options, more interesting games. Both Protoss and Zerg get rewarded more for scouting. Zerg when he sees many sentries, protoss when he sees the unit has the anti forcefield upgrade.
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Ok, burrow and medivac pickups were mentioned, but these are far away from the only options you have against forcefields. What's more important is baiting forcefields while the P army is out in the open by engaging early, setting up multi angle flanks, and chosing the right location to make the actual engagement. There is a lot you can do, see for example Parting vs Sniper. The immortal sentry allin is being figured out right now, there are not many P that still have success with this at the top level. Parting vs Sen shouldn't be an example, because they are far away from being on the same skill level tbh.
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I feel Morrow's arguments aren't strong enough in trying to prove his point. I have seen this kind of speech many times when the game was in other times of metagame phase, and the solutions that solved the problems at the time were based on innovating.
Having said that, i do agree that forcefield is a somewhat boring spell and should be reworked.
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EPT
