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On November 19 2012 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 06:09 JBrown08 wrote:On November 19 2012 06:07 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 06:03 JBrown08 wrote:
How about we give Zerg an anti-energy spell like the other two races? Maybe put it on a unit besides the infestor so that Zerg has to make something else and micro an additional caster. How does that solve the problem that without Forcefield Protoss units get annihilated by Zerg armies? Without good Forcefields, Zergling/Roach armies absolutely decimate everything Protoss can field pre-Collosus tech, which is one of the reasons Protoss players are so defensive about Forcefield when we discuss countering or removing it. We cannot simply nerf Forcefield without compensating Protoss in some other way, the same is true also of Fungal Growth even though both spells do need to be nerfed, they serve such a key role in allowing the race to stay viable that we can't simply nerf the spell without compensating the race. Well you make it a single target spell like feedback and give it less range than ff. Now you have micro. It still isn't an even trade. You're giving Zerg another way of countering Forcefield sure but you're not giving anything to Protoss that lessens their dependence on Forcefield in the first place and we aren't also addressing the late game issues that favor Zerg in the Zerg vs Protoss match up that have led so many Protoss players into all inning pre-Hive tech by abusing Forcefield.... See how complicated this is? The spell is a cornerstone of the race in the match up and nerfing or removing it requires a fundamental rethinking of the match up's dynamics and the race designs that create that dynamic. That is what Blizzard NEEDS to do right now. Nerfing both spells and calling it a day will not solve the problems they'll simply bandaid them.
This post is about FF. I was merely addressing that issue. But realistically you could make this change and nerf fungal. I didn't state that this was the only change needed, but it would help being able to do something about the spell. Seeing as you know toss already has feedback and all.
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Forcefield is an interesting ability for sure, but it should have never been made so low tier.
It should have been designed in such a way that you could rush for it to make a difference in the tier 2/2.5 midgame, but not in the early game at tier 1.5.
One of the disturbing design decisions in the game is the lack of upgrades required for spellcasters.
For protoss, only blink (not energy), hallucination and psi storm require an upgrade.
For zerg, only burrow (not energy) and neural parasite require upgrades
Terran has a lot more (which I believe is a result of the openness of the terran tech tree): stim (not energy), cloaking for banshee and ghost, 250mm strike cannons, weapons refit (yamato cannon) and seeker missile
Notice how a lot of those are pretty rare or useless: hallucination, neural parasite, strike cannons, yamato, seeker missile. One could argue that these spells are useless because of their upgrade requirement, but I think it's also the case that these casters start with much better spells that require no upgrade:
Sentries have forcefield and guardian shield, which are both better by far than hallucination.
Infestors have infested terrans and fungal for no upgrade cost, both of which are vastly superior to neural.
Ghosts start with snipe and EMP, and all they have to do is upgrade their cloaking field or buy nukes. Nevertheless, they start with some pretty powerful and necessary upgrades right out of the gate.
Ravens even have 2 pretty good spells in PDD and auto turret, and although SM is pretty good, it is hard to get because its so expensive, and also suffers from short casting range (6).
SC2's designers completely abandoned the BW spell casting paradigm: 50 or 75 energy spell to start out with, and more powerful spells to upgrade later that cost 100, 125 or for especially powerful spells, 150. Each caster would also get an upgrade that allowed their max energy to increase, and also their starting energy to increase proportionally.
By having different tiers of spells that could be progressively unlocked, the game could tailor the power of each spell and the timing more precisely, ensuring that units wouldn't be instantly powerful right out of the gate as they are now.
How does this relate to the sentry? Well if the forcefield were a 100/100 upgrade on the twilight council, it would strengthen that tech path, allow rushes to that tech, allow hallucination to become default and be buffed, and ensure that protoss isnt dependent on the sentry in the early game through other buffs.
Taking this ability out would be a mistake since it has a lot of uses: it just needs to be postponed.
Other options:
1) Create units like the archon that are decently fast, mobile and massive that can be used to crush forcefields with good control. Imagine if tanks were massive when in tank mode. Or queens. But failing that, maybe a new armor type that allows forcefields to be crushed.
2) Adding health/armor to forcefield and making them immune to a-move, forcing the opponent to micro to kill them.
Forcefield should certainly be strong, but it should also be counterable.
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On November 19 2012 05:47 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:28 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ? ??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get. Curious>>>>Titan yet lost = imbalance. Right?
Wrong. Curious didn't play well this tournament. I know logic is hard to comprehend.
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I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what if you made force field 40 energy and gave it some health (200-300). It would still dissipate normally. I don't actually play toss, so I'm not sure how viable it is. Anyone have some input?
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I agree with most of the issues mentioned in the op, but I also see it another way.
I see PvZ in SCII alot like PvT in BW.
There you had to use mines to prevent toss from overrunning you. You use mines perfectly, toss army melts. You dont, Terran gets demolished.
Tosses had to find ways to attack different locations at once, drop, recall, ect and never attack T army unless P has a huge advantage.
I dont know, maybe Zergs need to find ways to outplay protosses instead of relying on strats like fast BL + infestor.
On the other hand, I hate watching baseraces and this is what happens most times a Zerg decides not to engage the army of protoss but attack different locations on the map.
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I think queens that destroy force fields would be great:
[*]They are fragile so you have to micro them carefully to the front of the battle to kill a force field
[*]Zergs can't destroy force fields offensively because queens are slow off creep.
[*]You don't change any balance n the game (or do you?)
Issue solved. Next coinflip problem: mothership please.
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I agree - reducing the effects of forcefield (and fungal) on games isn't a matter of balance, it's a way to improve the metagame. I wouldn't argue that it's impossible to win versus protoss if they land perfect forcefields or anything like that, but I think forcefield in its current form makes games much less fun to watch and play than it would otherwise be.
Maybe time warp could serve as a means of replacing forcefield, forcefield should be changed so that is does not deny micro to the same degree, or more methods should be introduced into the game to allow players to circumnavigate forcefields with strong micro.
Yes, Protoss units would need to be stronger to compensate, but I think most people involved with the game agree that reducing the potential of forcefields to deny micro and influence games would be a positive change.
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I thought parting's wonwonwon was looking pretty solved.
Force fields get countered by positioning. This thread is rehashing albeit more civilly the rants after MC anhilated July.
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Blizzard is likely looking to scale back force field with HOTS. Mothership core is a buff to Protoss early game allowing them to delay robotics/obs meaning faster gateway upgrades as well as buffing pure defense. So with that blizzard should be free to nerf forcefield.
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On November 19 2012 06:49 RifleCow wrote:
Blizzard is likely looking to scale back force field with HOTS. Mothership core is a buff to Protoss early game allowing them to delay robotics/obs meaning faster gateway upgrades as well as buffing pure defense. So with that blizzard should be free to nerf forcefield.
I'm not up to date on HotS gameplay, but doesn't recall make forcefield a lot more powerful? You can use all your energy and kill a hatchery and then just warp out.
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On November 19 2012 06:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:47 sitromit wrote:On November 19 2012 05:28 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ? ??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get. Curious>>>>Titan yet lost = imbalance. Right? Wrong. Curious didn't play well this tournament. I know logic is hard to comprehend.
Yeah Curious lost because he played badly, but Creator almost lost even though he played great, because Zerg OP, sure... LOL... Your logic is superb.. air tight!!!
Creator played great and lost to Parting, Protoss is imbalanced...
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On November 19 2012 05:59 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:53 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:40 Lysanias wrote:On November 19 2012 04:36 Scootaloo wrote:
And this is all based on game against Sen? A guy who has dissapeared from the planet for most of last year?
Seems like zergs getting ahead of themselves due to just 1 tournament win, remember when Fruitdealer won GSL? Was zerg OP then?
For gods sake stop the premature zerg tears. Read first next time, because right now you make yourself look like a complete tool. Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right? The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance. OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have. Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP. Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate. I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game. The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way. Agreed, to be honest, Warp in kind of feels like Browders special little baby, people have pointed out how it breaks lategame warp in units and causes annoying as fuck pushes since a couple months after release, yet any meaningful changes have never been attempted (delaying research time is cute but not a redesign and only just slightly delays the problem), if we want to change this entire shitty toss/zerg dynamics, this is really the first thing that needs to be drastically changed. Yet, due to it being one of Browders "Cool" ideas, I fear we will never see warpgate dissapear until Blizzard fires his ass. It's just kind of frustrating that just when people are trying to shift the focus on the problems with Fungal, Morrows creates this rant about a literally 2 year old problem that Blizzard and quite frankly 99% of the community already know about, bad timing, especially when Zerg has been winning practically everything but WCG recently. I disagree with your point about the timing of this post. I think this post's timing is good because it details one of the reasons why it's so hard for Blizzard to just up and nerf Fungal Growth. It's integral in helping Zerg actually deal with Forcefield because of how strong that spell currently is which creates in my mind a really terrible dynamic. How do you counter this overpowered spell? You use THIS overpowered spell! Well then how do you counter THAT overpowered spell? You use THIS overpowered spell! >.< ( FF > Fungal > Vortex) The problem are the spells themselves, and not because they deal damage no, spells in Starcraft 1 dealt far more damage than anything currently in play in Starcraft 2, no rather because they negate the ability for players to control their units and in a game where the damage output of units is so high that ability to negate control is frankly completely broken. What this game needs is not a focus on one particular spell or unit, but rather a refocus on the core problems with Protoss and Zerg design that necessitates these spells and units being in the game in the first place.
Actually, tying these problems to eachother is pointless, even if you balanced out the Infestor and FF with eachother you'd be having massive issues in PvT because any early game allin, especially when stim is included, would just be an insta win, not to mention PvP would become even more of a clusterfuck then it already is.
In 2 years Browder has refused to change the forcefield, mostly because it requires the redesign of the entire warp gate mechanic, the chances of them doing anything with this are remote.
Fungals however, already being majorly patched once, and at worst will require some slight buffs to general zerg units to compensate for a nerf, are far easier to patch then having to redesign the entire core mechanics of the protoss race.
This is not about what would be best, in that case the entire game needs to be changed to allow for the depth of play that brood war provided, this is about what is feasible patch-wise, balancing zerg stats to compensate for fungal seems much more so then drastically overhauling the protoss core mechanics.
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Both fungal and FF's are hard to play with and against. The main problem that messes any player whether it be Z or P is micro. Like he said, protoss needs to have good micro in order to throw down FF's but it also takes good micro for Z in order to navigate around the FF's and use fungal. I think there really isnt anything blizzard will do for WoL until HOTS unless they find an even balance between the two abilities.
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On November 19 2012 06:57 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 06:36 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:47 sitromit wrote:On November 19 2012 05:28 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ? ??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get. Curious>>>>Titan yet lost = imbalance. Right? Wrong. Curious didn't play well this tournament. I know logic is hard to comprehend. Yeah Curious lost because he played badly, but Creator almost lost even though he played great, because Zerg OP, sure... LOL... Your logic is superb.. air tight!!! Creator played great and lost to Parting, Protoss is imbalanced...
Did you watch Curious play? The guy played horribly.
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Make forcefields to use pylon power as their benefit. If you are near pylon then forcefields activate faster (almost instantly) but if you are out of range then there is delay. Delay could be shown by ground circling forcefield and when done it "builds" it and its up (1 second-2 seconds etc can changed).
Add zerg research called "Slimey Tumor". It gives oldest tumor most spell protection and youngest one less. For example, forcefield is casted next to oldest tumor and it vaporizes forcefield away quickly.
For Fungal there could be art showing fungal launching and then it would have 3 phases. Big air units it only deals minimal damage but smaller flying units more damage.
1. Minimal amount of damage. Huge units stopped other units can move normal still.
2. Some period of time fungal emerges and starts to slow down units. Bit more damage. You can still try to escape.
3. Fungal stops every unit own/enemy and deals full damage.
and so on.. many ideas but...
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On November 19 2012 06:57 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 06:36 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:47 sitromit wrote:On November 19 2012 05:28 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:18 Godwrath wrote:On November 19 2012 05:05 Grumbels wrote:On November 19 2012 05:02 Doublemint wrote:
I respect Morrow and just generally find his opinions interesting - but judging from the WCS where the top 3 actually were the best and most well rounded players there I am not sure this is the right way to start a discussion about FF.
Sen is an excellent player - but he went 2:1 against Grubby. Some might even say that a victory is not out of reach on a good day for Grubby.
And at the same time saying that constant Code A/S Contenders should not be able to beat Sen in a convincing fashion is, well, questionable to say the least. Rain/Creator/Parting are all WAY BETTER than Grubby - and I am one of the Grubby cheer-cannons.
So why did Korean Ps win so convincingly? I am inclined to say it's because the best Korean Zs and Ts were not present due to the format(not participating in WCS KR/already eliminated/whatever), just as simple as that. Creator nearly lost to Vortix, Parting nearly lost to Suppy, both barely edged out in tense matches with a 3-2 final score. Both these players are quite superior to their opponents, - they still won, but I think it is evidence for imbalance.As an aside, if Blizzard ever decides to go with the destructable forcefield idea, I hope they'd consider having shield upgrades buff the hit points. I also felt this way with (RIP) entomb, it's so silly that a spell creates a shield with static health, yet units keep gaining more damage as the game progresses. What kind of crazy logic is that ? ??? Creator >>>> Vortix yet still almost lost = imbalance. Not hard to get. Curious>>>>Titan yet lost = imbalance. Right? Wrong. Curious didn't play well this tournament. I know logic is hard to comprehend. Yeah Curious lost because he played badly, but Creator almost lost even though he played great, because Zerg OP, sure... LOL... Your logic is superb.. air tight!!! Creator played great and lost to Parting, Protoss is imbalanced...
This makes perfect sense to me?
Zerg plays awful - loses.
Protoss plays great, zerg plays average and almost wins - zerg op
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On November 19 2012 05:51 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:46 Ooshmagoosh wrote:
Swapping the Roach and Hydralisk positions on the tech tree is key to handling forcefields.
As a properly-adjusted hatchery tech unit, the Hydralisk could be weak enough against zealots to make a Protoss aggression dangerous without having lots of forcefields.
They could also have the range to handle sentry-heavy armies. Terran doesn't suffer nearly as much vs forcefields because most of their army can shoot back when they are divided or trapped. The current Roach, on the other hand, just twitches around helplessly and explodes. See that's a bandaid solution though and also creates another problem because Hydralisks also shred gateway units so easily because their DPS is so high. It isn't a simple matter of "how can Zerg counter Forcefield better" it's a matter of changing the way Protoss works so that they can rely on Forcefield less and then directly nerfing Forcefield.
Perhaps I should have said that the hydralisks could do damage equivalent to that of a BW hydralisk ie, less damage to 'small' targets, like 6 (+4 vs armored).
The issue isn't the Protoss units themselves (blink and charge are amazing upgrades) but rather the incredible power of the other race's low-tech units. The Roach murders Zealots, and with their speed upgrade, can fight Stalkers pretty well. The old Hydralisk had a horrible, horrible time dealing with chargelots and storm, and with the new damage system where shields don't take full damage from all attacks, it'll be even harder for hydras to handle them. Thing is, Zerg now has banelings, so it should even out the early game.
Protoss will still turtle quite a bit vs bio, but with a new HotS mech in the picture, and Purify / Recall, I don't think PvT games will consistently be "turtle -> 200 -> fight".
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On November 18 2012 21:52 Fenrax wrote:
Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against.
That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight.
I totally agree with this opinion. I would be very glad to see both fungals and FF transformed into something more entertaining, or entirely removed as long as the balance is kept thanks to other mechanics / abilities / whatever compensation.
I'm a Z player and I love to use my fungal. But still I agree with this. The fact that it reduces the opponent's ability to micro is a bad thing.
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Forcefield is simply too cool a spell to neuter.
I think solid options include drastically buffing pneumatized carapace or roach burrow speed.
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i often wondered why the forcefield does not get popped when placed on a unit/structure/creep. That would at least prevent the abusive potential of cutting an entire army in half. But then again, it does not solve the main problem.
I hate the forcefield, and i hate ZvP because of it. It is just like the OP said, if my opponent does not screw up, i lose. It is like hitting a brick wall, and incredibly frustrating because i can't do nothin about it. And if P moves out with 6+ sentries, good luck baiting some. They shall be granted, and then some more. Many more.
FF are just frustrating to play against, and frustrating when you have to place them perfectly.
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EPT
