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I totally agree with Morrow with regard to the problem, although I actually would advocate removing forcefields entirely (or at the very least trying out the idea of having them be destructible).. I'd also love to see fungal (at least the root part) and even concussive removed too (and also timewarp, although as it's only in beta maybe it won't ever see release anyway).
Now obviously taking all these fundamental features out would mean effectively a total rework of the game which would be a massive undertaking.. but that doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. I can't help thinking that as long as the game revolves around these anti-micro abilities there'll always be a limit on how good the game can become and how awesome the feats of those playing it can really be. Given that it will clearly take a super long time to get over such a huge change and given we have a handy beta going on right now I think it's better to bite the bullet and get it over with as soon as possible (and crucially not add any more anti-micro abilities from here on :| ).
That said, there's obviously huge risks involved in a drastic course of action such as this and some may not have faith in Blizzard to rise to the challenge (honestly I'm not sure I do), but without taking any risks in development SC2 will only ever be a very good game and not a truly great one.
- I hope this post makes sense if anyone reads it.. I'm sooo tired, haven't been to sleep since the start of BWC today :D
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On November 19 2012 07:40 Traceback wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 07:35 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 06:11 azoriusherald wrote:
People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming. No changes are being made to FF because it would mean a complete redesigning of the P race and tech tree in general. Maybe we just need to suck up and make the changes for the good of the long term. The thing is, even in HotS, which is a great opportunity to make such big changes, nothing is being done. Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away.
Getting Blizzard to nerf FF which also means redesigning the entire P race in general would mean admitting that their ideas were fucked up in the first place (particularly WGs). Dustin Browder is too prideful to swallow the fact that his ideas didn't pan out the way he wanted them to (as well as the vast majority of Blizzard employees currently), so it's not gonna happen ever. FF is going to stay the way it is, and the only thing that might happen is some very minor indirect nerfs to FF if it continues to be an issue.
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On November 19 2012 08:31 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 21:52 Fenrax wrote:
Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against.
That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight. Those ability force you to micro better. You have to split and pick engagements smarter because of those abilities. "Anti-Micro" abilities create micro/positioning somewhere else. I like what Morrow is saying and I agree it feels just stupid watching games where it's like oh Protoss missed that force field his army died. Same goes for PvT. 1 spell in the game determines way to much, Protoss would almost never win games without FF and Colossus.
They dont force you to micro better. How do you micro when your rooted or FFed? What your talking about is pre-battle splits and the so called "dancing" to decide the perfect engagement. Those aren't the type of micro that Morrow was pointing out. Its the actual in-battle micro that hes referring to. Like baneling vs marines where your constantly splitting during the engagement while targeting down infestors/banelings with tanks. In PvZ this isn't the case, you fungal/FF and hope for the best.The pre-engagement decides the outcome far too much which is just too frustrating to play against/for or watch as a spectator (just like TvZ when infestors hit the field). They should rather give an advantage but not so lopsided to one party where battle micro can compensate for the slight disadvantage in the engagement if you were the batter mechanical player.
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Something that has bothered me a little: We have anti-casters that work to prevent spells (EMP the shit out of casters, snipe them [of questionable use now], feedback, etc.), but we don't have anti-casters that work to counter spells after they're cast (think the medic in BW as an example).
Now that I think of it, there were a lot of anti-caster mechanisms in War3, which also had a lot of micro-minimizing spells. You could dispel, interrupt channeling, deny energy, specifically feedback the casters who cast a spell within a particular range, and more War3 specific mechanisms (staffing, burrowing, morphing, popping things out of ensnares, etc.), but the point really is that there are many ways to counter spells, and SC2 only employs one -- namely energy denial -- and it's really hit-or-miss. More spell interaction is definitely needed and would encourage micro.
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On November 19 2012 08:53 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 07:40 Traceback wrote:On November 19 2012 07:35 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 06:11 azoriusherald wrote:
People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming. No changes are being made to FF because it would mean a complete redesigning of the P race and tech tree in general. Maybe we just need to suck up and make the changes for the good of the long term. The thing is, even in HotS, which is a great opportunity to make such big changes, nothing is being done. Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away. Getting Blizzard to nerf FF which also means redesigning the entire P race in general would mean admitting that their ideas were fucked up in the first place (particularly WGs). Dustin Browder is too prideful to swallow the fact that his ideas didn't pan out the way he wanted them to (as well as the vast majority of Blizzard employees currently), so it's not gonna happen ever. FF is going to stay the way it is, and the only thing that might happen is some very minor indirect nerfs to FF if it continues to be an issue.
This is kinda the conclusion I've come to...Many people simply dont enjoy FFs or the issues it and warpgates create. Yet blizzard absolutely loves them. When a lot of the suggestions are reverting things back to brood war it probably kills their pride.
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On November 19 2012 08:47 PH wrote:
They need to get rid of force field and make gateway units not suck balls.
Gateway units dont suck contrary to popular belief. The way protoss functions, you need that key AOE dealing unit/caster (insert FF for SC2) to make these units effective on the field in PvZ. Pure gateway armies dont actually work in BW PvZ either outside some all in (dragoons get raped so much harder than stalkers vs lings/hydras+lurkers melt zealots in droves). But again we see that pattern. HTs and reavers literally kill off half (or less) of that threat compensating for the lack of cost efficient troop choices in this matchup.
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On November 19 2012 09:03 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 08:47 PH wrote:
They need to get rid of force field and make gateway units not suck balls. Gateway units dont suck contrary to popular belief. The way protoss functions, you need that key AOE dealing unit/caster (insert FF for SC2) to make these units effective on the field in PvZ. Pure gateway armies dont actually work in BW PvZ either outside some all in (dragoons get raped so much harder than stalkers vs lings/hydras+lurkers melt zealots in droves). But again we see that pattern. HTs and reavers literally kill off half (or less) of that threat compensating for the lack of cost efficient troop choices in this matchup.
But reavers and HTs are more fun and interesting to use than seeing FFs trap an army into a big ball.
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On November 19 2012 08:53 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 07:40 Traceback wrote:On November 19 2012 07:35 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 06:11 azoriusherald wrote:
People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming. No changes are being made to FF because it would mean a complete redesigning of the P race and tech tree in general. Maybe we just need to suck up and make the changes for the good of the long term. The thing is, even in HotS, which is a great opportunity to make such big changes, nothing is being done. Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away. Getting Blizzard to nerf FF which also means redesigning the entire P race in general would mean admitting that their ideas were fucked up in the first place (particularly WGs). Dustin Browder is too prideful to swallow the fact that his ideas didn't pan out the way he wanted them to (as well as the vast majority of Blizzard employees currently), so it's not gonna happen ever. FF is going to stay the way it is, and the only thing that might happen is some very minor indirect nerfs to FF if it continues to be an issue.
completely agree, i have always felt that this is not our game but it is blizzards and that they have a very specific vision of what they want the game to look like, so solutions that seem smart and realistic to us seem crazy to them, while random arbitrary changes like protoss research cost seems perfectly logical to them
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This is just a giant balance whine thread. Albeit a well written one. Why hasn't it been closed?
User was warned for this post
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On November 19 2012 08:53 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 07:40 Traceback wrote:On November 19 2012 07:35 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 06:11 azoriusherald wrote:
People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming. No changes are being made to FF because it would mean a complete redesigning of the P race and tech tree in general. Maybe we just need to suck up and make the changes for the good of the long term. The thing is, even in HotS, which is a great opportunity to make such big changes, nothing is being done. Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away. Getting Blizzard to nerf FF which also means redesigning the entire P race in general would mean admitting that their ideas were fucked up in the first place (particularly WGs). Dustin Browder is too prideful to swallow the fact that his ideas didn't pan out the way he wanted them to (as well as the vast majority of Blizzard employees currently), so it's not gonna happen ever. FF is going to stay the way it is, and the only thing that might happen is some very minor indirect nerfs to FF if it continues to be an issue.
Not necessarily. Just because the concepts are problematic now doesn't mean they were bad ideas from the beginning, and it's not like you can fault them for not knowing how the game would be played out 2-3 years down the line. The impression I'm getting from recent interviews is actually pretty positive, blizz seems to be looking into redesigning old units and spells like strike cannon, void ray, HSM, etc.
I know it's frustrating to have to wait so long for changes, but I don't think that attacking Dustin Browder's character is the right way to go about fixing things.
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On November 19 2012 09:11 Orcasgt24 wrote:
This is just a giant balance whine thread. Albeit a well written one. Why hasn't it been closed?
No it's a good thread, you trying to see balance whining in any thread is probably an issue though.
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Something that had always bothered me is how warp gates work. That is, warp tech decreases the build time of most gateway units by about 10 sec.
Blizzard has claimed in the past that they don't like tech that feels mandatory or compulsory. Complicate this with the fact that traditionally Protoss has struggled with early aggressive play and so blizzard has played with sentry build times and such to make forcefield a viable solution on the defensive.
I would have liked to see that relation between warp gate and build times reversed: 10 sec shorter build times in gateway mode and the full build times in warp gate mode. The would be more of a trade off to the benefits of warp gates and Protoss would be able to get more units in the early game for defense or offense.
As it is, there is no reason to not get warp gate or stay in warp mode at all times. In fact, if you don't, you lose.
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On November 18 2012 21:34 MaddeLisk wrote:
+1!
User was warned for this post
cmon noob :D
OT: I totally agree; there needs to be a redesign of early-mid game for Protoss. ANYTHING that reduces the other player's ability to affect the outcome of the battle should be foregone for the abilities that require control.
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On November 19 2012 09:03 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 08:47 PH wrote:
They need to get rid of force field and make gateway units not suck balls. Gateway units dont suck contrary to popular belief. The way protoss functions, you need that key AOE dealing unit/caster (insert FF for SC2) to make these units effective on the field in PvZ. Pure gateway armies dont actually work in BW PvZ either outside some all in (dragoons get raped so much harder than stalkers vs lings/hydras+lurkers melt zealots in droves). But again we see that pattern. HTs and reavers literally kill off half (or less) of that threat compensating for the lack of cost efficient troop choices in this matchup.
The difference in BW was that Z couldn't exponentially create units at a ridiculous rate that would run over a P player. Sure you had some lame ass 3 hatch Hydra play that was hard as fuck to stop, but that was possible to stop without AoE or very minimal amounts of AoE. Without FF, Protoss is literally fucked in SC2 in the early to mid game. Period. In smaller numbers, Zealot/Goon could actually murder the living fuck out of Z units, and could handle Hydras fairly well as long as the Z wasn't making Hydras en masse. This is espec true when Zeals got leg upgrades. It wasn't until Z got his economy really going that he could outproduce and just run you over with Hydra/Lurkers, but at that point your AoE is already on the field in the form of Archons/Reavers/HT.
On November 19 2012 09:11 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 08:53 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 07:40 Traceback wrote:On November 19 2012 07:35 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 06:11 azoriusherald wrote:
People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming. No changes are being made to FF because it would mean a complete redesigning of the P race and tech tree in general. Maybe we just need to suck up and make the changes for the good of the long term. The thing is, even in HotS, which is a great opportunity to make such big changes, nothing is being done. Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away. Getting Blizzard to nerf FF which also means redesigning the entire P race in general would mean admitting that their ideas were fucked up in the first place (particularly WGs). Dustin Browder is too prideful to swallow the fact that his ideas didn't pan out the way he wanted them to (as well as the vast majority of Blizzard employees currently), so it's not gonna happen ever. FF is going to stay the way it is, and the only thing that might happen is some very minor indirect nerfs to FF if it continues to be an issue. Not necessarily. Just because the concepts are problematic now doesn't mean they were bad ideas from the beginning, and it's not like you can fault them for not knowing how the game would be played out 2-3 years down the line. The impression I'm getting from recent interviews is actually pretty positive, blizz seems to be looking into redesigning old units and spells like strike cannon, void ray, HSM, etc. I know it's frustrating to have to wait so long for changes, but I don't think that attacking Dustin Browder's character is the right way to go about fixing things.
Dustin Browder will never, ever, ever, ever, revert WGs or FF. They are in the game, and will never change in any dramatic way. The problem is that if he does in any way shape or form make any major change to these things, it means that he is all but admitting that his ideas were bad, and as such he was wrong despite the fact that we had plenty of pros on this very forum tell him his ideas were atrocious since the beta.
The abilities/units you are talking about are considered useless, and are not related to core design of the game. Having a few useless units/abilities is fine; even in BW a few units/abilities are useless outside a very few specific situations. A total restructuring of the entire Protoss tech tree (because that's the only way you could feasibly do anything to FF/WGs without totally screwing P's early game) is different; it means that the game designer fucked up from essentially day 1. If a FF/WG rework/removal went through, it would be a damn miracle, because Dustin Browder is pretty much dead set on his vision of SC2.
And not fault them for not knowing how the game would play out 2-3 years down the line? Once people figured out how ridiculous WG tech was, there was nothing but literally 4/5 gates every single game because of how fast WG research came out during the beta testing. We all figured out from the beta how idiotic WG research is, because there is 0 downside to it. Everyone knew you HAD to get it, and everyone knew that if P tier 1 got any meaningful buffs at all, that P would run over both Z and T due to WG research overriding defenders advantage. That's why you hardly ever saw any buffs for P tier 1 during the beta, and the only meaningful buff was Stalker damage vs light units, mainly because Stalkers sucked a big fat cock when trying to kill air units back then.
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On November 19 2012 09:11 Orcasgt24 wrote:
This is just a giant balance whine thread. Albeit a well written one. Why hasn't it been closed?
Because it's a thread written by Morrow. If YOU wrote this op, it'd get closed 
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On November 19 2012 09:15 DwmC_Foefen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:11 Orcasgt24 wrote:
This is just a giant balance whine thread. Albeit a well written one. Why hasn't it been closed? Because it's a thread written by Morrow. If YOU wrote this op, it'd get closed
It's also more than just a balance whine thread, as a lot of the discussion is about micro-killing game mechanics, which apply to forcefield and fungal growth alike. If it was purely a whine thread, then the only posts in this thread would be Terran tears...
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On November 19 2012 09:15 DwmC_Foefen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:11 Orcasgt24 wrote:
This is just a giant balance whine thread. Albeit a well written one. Why hasn't it been closed? Because it's a thread written by Morrow. If YOU wrote this op, it'd get closed
Thats kinda the point. Several thread about forcefeild have been made throughout SC2s life, some well written, some pure trash. All closed. Many bans in those threads too
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Canada11496 Posts
On November 19 2012 09:11 Orcasgt24 wrote:
This is just a giant balance whine thread. Albeit a well written one. Why hasn't it been closed?
Because there is a difference between balance whine and critiquing game design that creates unfun gameplay. Or game design that consists of hindering the other players units more than controlling your own units better. Zerg's could be even generally winning against Protoss overall and it can still be a legitimate critique because it's not about OP or imba, but what sort of gameplay does it promote.
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On November 19 2012 09:11 Orcasgt24 wrote:
This is just a giant balance whine thread. Albeit a well written one. Why hasn't it been closed?
Because it's a discussion regarding game design and not balance.
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Don't hate the units, hate the game. Our best bet is to hope for Blizzard to look over the races and redo them. Force Fields look mad strong in the Immortal All-in build, but removing FF or nerfing it into the ground would do too much damage. Look at all the games in PvX where FF plays a huge role. Whether it be good or bad, its the deciding factor in a lot of wins of losses for Protoss. And it shouldn't be like that. There was at least 2 games this weekend that I saw from Rain where he missed a FF in PvP and it cost him the game. It shouldn't be like that.
And even fungal in ZvX. Its a must have to be able to live long enough to get out whatever you are trying to get out. One unit shouldn't have all this power in an RTS that can decide the game in a win or a loss.
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EPT
