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On November 19 2012 06:08 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 05:58 Integra wrote:On November 19 2012 05:57 freetgy wrote:On November 19 2012 05:53 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:40 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 19 2012 05:33 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 05:15 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:59 Scootaloo wrote:On November 19 2012 04:53 Deckkie wrote:On November 19 2012 04:49 Scootaloo wrote: [quote]
Ah yes, unless my conclusion is that I agree with the raging zergs I am clearly wrong and didn't read the OP right?
The lengths some people will go to to cry about balance.
OP is a clear attack on the forcefield, mostly based on information that has been known since the beginning of the game and that has been countered numerous time, remember when zergs dropped blings on them? Or when they fungalled them? Guess they forgot how to do that. Why is this information suddenly relevant again after a toss wins a tournament when everyone had practically forgot about the sentry? And before we get into the "I can't get drop tech because I desperately need the 50 gas for producing another stupid upgrade at that time"-logic, adapt your builds, learn from your mistakes and I'm sure zerg will figure something out like they usually have.
Or keep crying that zerg is UP, see if I care. MorroW is porbably the person with the most experience with baneling drops. I think you should read his post with a little weight. Why are you even bothering to reply? If you're not going to actually argue but just go "Read the OP and if you don't agree with me you are clearly wrong." you're just wasting your own and my time. I felt like I made an argument. MorroW has much experience with what you argue. Much more than you or me. And he gives an argument why that is not working anymore. So, maybe you should actually give an argument why MorroW is wrong, and banelingdrops still work. Have an entire thread dedicated to stopping this push http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647 . If you'd like we could discuss all the possible ways of holding it, pointless as it would be. Also, as far as Morrows knowledge on the subject goes, he's not exactly a top tier player anymore, if this was really such a big issue shouldn't we hear some of the top tier zergs being vocal about this? Stephano? DRG? Even Sen? Simple fact is that Morrow not being able to figure out how to counter the sentry immortal push does not equal forcefield being broken for anymore reasons then where stated 2 years ago, yes, they are bad game design, but tweaks like giving them HP will require an entire redesign of gateway units to hold of certain pushes, which gives the problem that warpgate itself has to be redesigned because otherwise buffing gate units will break warp in pushes. Not to mention that zerg has by far the most powerful movement restricting spell, this whining about forcefield really feels like the pot calling the kettle OP. Both spells are a problem. Forcefield is a problem and Fungal Growth is a problem. They both need to be addressed from a design perspective and adjusting them will require numerous other adjustments to their respective races in order to compensate. I think players on all sides of the argument can agree that both Fungal Growth and Forcefield are badly designed spells and everyone can also agree that both races rely far too heavily on these spells than should be healthy for the game. The reason this argument is so polarizing amongst Zerg and Protoss players is because Zerg vs Protoss is the match up that's currently most affected by the interaction between these two spells and it's widely considered right now to be the match up most in need of major changes because of how stagnant the metagame has become. It's no coincidence players feel that way. Agreed, to be honest, Warp in kind of feels like Browders special little baby, people have pointed out how it breaks lategame warp in units and causes annoying as fuck pushes since a couple months after release, yet any meaningful changes have never been attempted (delaying research time is cute but not a redesign and only just slightly delays the problem), if we want to change this entire shitty toss/zerg dynamics, this is really the first thing that needs to be drastically changed. Yet, due to it being one of Browders "Cool" ideas, I fear we will never see warpgate dissapear until Blizzard fires his ass. It's just kind of frustrating that just when people are trying to shift the focus on the problems with Fungal, Morrows creates this rant about a literally 2 year old problem that Blizzard and quite frankly 99% of the community already know about, bad timing, especially when Zerg has been winning practically everything but WCG recently. all disguise to either prevent a nerf, or to get a nerf of protoss in compensation of fixing infestors... My main race is protoss so please dont pull the bias card  I will pull your nationality bias ! :D I can't argue with that, lol.
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On November 19 2012 06:11 azoriusherald wrote: People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming.
No changes are being made to FF because it would mean a complete redesigning of the P race and tech tree in general.
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Protoss player needs great micro, zerg needs protoss not to have
"I have to learn actually micro while you a-move" "well at least you can micro"
I gotta agree completely. However I feel like this is an issue that has been in a lot of peoples' minds for a while now. I especially liked these 2 lines. Personally, the forcefield issue frustrates so much, both while playing and watching sc2, it is a big part of why I play the game a lot less than I used to.
It's just no fun. And if it aint fun, I aint playing either. I really wish blizzard did something about this.
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On November 19 2012 07:35 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 06:11 azoriusherald wrote: People are getting confused about the point of the discussion. The OP is not really about the relative balance of the races. What is baffling to me is how little controversy there is when you ask pro players about it. Both Z and P pros (if they are honest) will say that it is incredibly frustrating that you MUST get infestors or sentries because of how powerful the spells are, and how weak one is without them. Yet, despite the virtual unanimity of opinion, no changes to the spells are forthcoming. No changes are being made to FF because it would mean a complete redesigning of the P race and tech tree in general. Maybe we just need to suck up and make the changes for the good of the long term. The thing is, even in HotS, which is a great opportunity to make such big changes, nothing is being done. Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away.
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I've been thinking for a while that both Forcefield and Fungal Growth need removing/changing. I don't know the solution but both of these abilities are making predictable games which feel like ground hog day. As a Protoss player I hate having to rely on FF in every battle, against all races (particular early Terran aggression actually). And during the mid/late game fungal growth is the ultimate disincentive for building air units, which I feel should be a strong part of the Protoss army.
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On November 19 2012 07:11 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Make forcefields to use pylon power as their benefit. If you are near pylon then forcefields activate faster (almost instantly) but if you are out of range then there is delay. Delay could be shown by ground circling forcefield and when done it "builds" it and its up (1 second-2 seconds etc can changed).
Very bad idea, since FF are all about the exact moment you use them, and are great when you're outnumbered, if there's a delay, you can be sure that in ealry in early game will get slaughtered in bot PvT and PvZ (and I guess in PvP the aggressive one has the advantage). And you can bait FF extremely easily too.
I still disagree with several points of the OP, like the infestors isn't out before 12min (lately I saw people having infestors out at 10:30-11min, sometimes even earlier), same for the "corruptors aren't out before 16min", which is extremely wrong, because you said that 16min is the broodlords's timing. If you don't have corruptors at 16min, then I guess you've been doing something wrong in your game, especially since most timings pre-broodlords involve colossi. What I said for infestors is the same for broodlords, lately many Z have them at sth like 15min, sometimes 14min (I know Stephano does it alot).
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Force field would be be fine if hydras were a reliable counter, at the moment it's spines and counter attacking of some kind or just spamming 4szzzzrrrrr and hoping he doesn't micro well with force fields during the most important engagement I the game
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I personally think that the immortal sentry allin is like the PvZ version of the 1-1-1. Anyway thats beside the point.
If we look at the BW PvZ for instance (as reference), you can see that units actually fought. It wasn't the micro limiting abilities like fungals or forcefields that dictated the fight from early to mid game. I think this worked because of the unit relationships between the two race. The basic troops ala zealot/ling/hydra was always used from the start of the game to the end. It was all about battle micro. Can the zealot close the distance to the hydras who are squishy but still very deadly in the hands of a good player? Lurker positioning to army flanks, observer sniping etc.
However I also tend to think that the two AOE damage dealers ala reaver/HT were the things that kept P in BW from just flat out get swarmed like what we see in SC2. Now this is interesting because storms can be dodged (weakness) and reavers/HT can be sniped as they are being paired with a very low hp shuttle(big weakness).This means that the zerg can actually micro his way out of this and win with superior micro by targeting/snipping/dodging these that keep the P standing toe to toe with the zerg army. As Morrow suggests, FF does keep P stand toe to toe with the zerg army but the diference is that its up to the controlling players to make a mistake and not how the opposition will work it out.
I think this is the root cause of the problem in this particular matchup. The early game zerg composition always has roaches. Roaches simply flat out murder everything on ground and take sheer punishment thanks to their high hitpoints for such a low cost unit which in my opinion is downright stupid especially when their weakness (short range) was buffed due to ironically Morrows 5 rax reaper(? - correct me if Im wrong ). The protoss in SC2 simply lacks any high AOE damage dealing options to take these out (You need a critical amount of colossus to do the job and storms are just laughed at). So what do they turn to? FFs. Its what makes SC2 P stand toe to toe with the zerg til the lategame.
I tend to think that a bunch of things could potentially provide some more interesting matchup between PvZ. For instance the roach could go back to being a shorter range unit that justified its high hitpoint usage and return the hydras at T1.5 giving them options against mass FFs (thanks to their range 6). Maybe storm could be buffed but the nature of smart cast makes it so easy to use (and spammable).. all in awhile throwing the PvT balance off the window but Im thinking that PvT requires some SERIOUS makeover. Letting the Protoss have access to decent AOE damage dealing units (like BW) could shift the emphasis away from FFs (Maybe half/half?). I also tend to think that FFs should be like destructible rocks (you have to manually target them - maybe have half the hitpoints or less?) so it gives more options to the opposing player to actually get out or not get contained forever which also seems stupid e.g 3 sentry drop with warp prism on their main.
Also they should really replace the colossus with something else.
edit - Storms being buffed would actually hurt broodlord based deathballs also.. if smart casting were removed from high damage dealing abilities like BW. It would be such a different game if there were no smart casting which would differentiate such high skilled players from the rest (or those that literally focus on their troops to win and forgoing the spell casters all together).
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I'm not saying Blizzard will never fix the issue but I think it would be best if we, the community, took it upon ourselves to sort this issue out. I know it's a lot to ask but maps should be made with some of the proposed balance changes and top players should play (and stream) on them to try and reach a balanced point without (or drastically altered) spells/units. Sure some of the most relevant players at the moment probably couldn't be bothered with this but I think it is pretty much agreed upon that if this new balance could be found it would be a huge boon to the game/scene and I think that is worth the sacrifice.
This is by no means a suggestion to split the scene but rather prove to Blizzard that it can be rebalanced in a more interesting manner so that they could officially implement the changes.
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Canada11261 Posts
I very much agree with issue of "closing the distance"
I had actually briefly touched on this issue when advocating for true Mech Play
Thoughts on Late Game
The very interesting about Mech Play is by late game, Terran's defence in depth is so strong, it would become very difficult for melee units to be of any use. How can a unit that has to run all the way up to hit you in the face be of any use, if you have to run through mine field, dodge past hover bikers with attitudes, chucking grenades, to even reach the tank line?
Blizzard cleverly included some abilities that allowed melee to close the gap. Fast ships with cloaking fields under them and great orange clouds that ranged fire couldn't shoot into, but melee could attack unimpeded. The Arbiter and the Defiler.
It's rather unbelievable, that these abilities work as well as they do. Sure Terran has scans and Science Vessels. But it's sufficient to get the Protoss and Zerg army within striking distance. Not only that, but late game also has tremendous drop play potential. Multiple arbiters can be flying around, recalling on different bases, pulling the Terran death machine in multiple directions. Or carriers can harass it and strike in one place before running away.
Late game, range reaches a critical mass and melee needs ways to close the distance. To some extent zealots have charge. Mothership is kinda meh for this idea. Super slow and only one of it- good for protecting that one deathball army I guess and to slow down the army to the speed of the mothership. But what do Zerg's have? Maybe Blinding Cloud? But that doesn't seem to quite work the same as Dark Swarm. But in WoL? Not much.
Multiple, fast Arbiters opened up safe avenues for the protoss army to move into attacking range. Similarily, Dark Swarms created these relatively safe highways to move lings, lurkers, and ultralisks through to get to their targets. (But hydras and casters were happy to use it as well.) Relatively safe as melee, spells and splash still worked underneath.
Massive numbers of FF's move in the exact opposite direction of allowing melee (or short ranged units) to close the gap. It specifically blocks them out. So the ideal would be if somehow FF's could be kept, but then not be so near so prevalent.
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On November 18 2012 21:50 TylerThaCreator wrote: I think using sen's games vs. parting are a bad example, he engaged pretty poorly in games 2 and 3 (and held the attack game 1). With the kind of army he was going for (1-1 lings) he should be wasting forcefields constantly from the protosses nat instead of just letting him march up to your third/nat with full forcefield energy AND your army is at a bad angle. Complaining about forcefields at that point is like complaining about engaging a sieged army from a choke.
This is exactly the OP's point. If the toss screws up the FF and lets the lings get away the toss loses. But if the toss just gets the good FF he wins. (a toss casting FF as he walks across a map is bad play if hes not getting kills with it.
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the thing that cringes me the most about forcefield is when they are dropped in the main and you use 1 forcefield to negate an entire army, any spells that gives you absolutely no defence opportunity is wrong.
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This doesn't feel any different from all of the other balance whine that passes through TL day and night. Basing your argument on the WCS seems sketchy as the only top Korean zerg there was Curious (Roro is pretty good, but doesn't have the SC2 experience yet), and you focus on Sen losing? I love Sen but I think most people would agree that he's a step below Code S Koreans yes?
The specific build in question has been beaten by many zergs on many different occasions, it's hard yes, but it can be done. Instead of complaining and hoping that ff gets changed by blizz, which of course it probably isn't and is not even on their radar right now, why not try and look for solutions that have already been discovered by others?
Last but not least you must realize that you play Terran/Zerg, and this in itself looks extremely suspicious. I'm not saying that you can't be objective, but let's face it, it's tough when you don't see any pro's making threads in favor of nerfing their own race 
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I wish they would increase the hp of all units in the game so fights aren't over so quickly, that would make micro more deciding and spells like forcefields less deciding for the outcome. It would require rebalancing the whole game though but they are messing with the whole game with HoTS anyway so they might aswell increase unit hp.
Stuff just dies way too fast in SC2 imo which makes certain spells like forcefield, fungal, EMP and units like colossus, baneling, hellion overpowered in certain situations.
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On November 18 2012 21:52 Fenrax wrote: Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against.
That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight.
Those ability force you to micro better. You have to split and pick engagements smarter because of those abilities. "Anti-Micro" abilities create micro/positioning somewhere else.
I like what Morrow is saying and I agree it feels just stupid watching games where it's like oh Protoss missed that force field his army died. Same goes for PvT.
1 spell in the game determines way to much, Protoss would almost never win games without FF and Colossus.
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Pretty good point but care and much testing is needed to address this
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On November 19 2012 08:31 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 21:52 Fenrax wrote: Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against.
That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight. Those ability force you to micro better. You have to split and pick engagements smarter because of those abilities. "Anti-Micro" abilities create micro/positioning somewhere else. So anti-micro abilitys produces more micro? Seems a legit statement.
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On November 19 2012 08:32 oneill12 wrote: Pretty good point but care and much testing is needed to address this
I think this is the attitude that has made Starcraft 2 feel so lackluster after all this time. We haven't seen a lot of major reworks to units because we're too busy walking on eggshells hoping we don't upset the "balance" of the game before it's figured out. Small steps aren't going to get us very far unless we take a lot of them and that hasn't been the case.
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They need to get rid of force field and make gateway units not suck balls.
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