EPTIf you are gonna change the FF now its the time !
A fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 11
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therockmanxx
Peru1174 Posts
If you are gonna change the FF now its the time ! | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On November 19 2012 03:31 dacimvrl wrote: like the ridiculous points about how he's literally complaining because zerg doesn't have to pay as much attention to a fight as a protoss? and then saying better zerg players cant stand out from lesser zerg players in micro? yeh, the answer is: "learn to macro and be creative" check.. Damn, you open my eyes. Your friend must be a very insightfull person to come to this increadibly well argued position. MorroW made some solid points, but this, its so much better. Zergs will just have to macro better and be more creative with their units in the first ten minutes. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
Delete the protoss race from the game. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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VTFlow
United States84 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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jesseclaytonjames
20 Posts
Now before anyone says "LOL U CRAZY ZERG SO OP ROACH RUN OVER FF LOLOLOL GG EZ NO RE" No, that is not what I'm saying. I believe that once overlords can drop creep after getting lair tech, they should be able to spread creep over FF and allow certain units (probably just lings and MAYBE drones [but I doubt it] to walk/run over them) This way, the zerg has a LITTLE bit more dps against the front lines of units hiding behind the FF, as well as more ability to do amazing things with good control....imagine protoss player getting a sick line of FF cutting off the zerg army, but zerg has speed overlords with his units and micros them to spread creep over the FF allowing his 3/3 speedlings in from the front, and at the same time he creates a flank and runs more speedlings in from another angle unprotected at the time by FF's, all while controlling his infestors and keeping key protoss units fungal'd down and spamming IT's everywhere. Don't know if this would be liked by anyone, maybe because zergs don't want to try and micro or because protoss GW units are just too weak against zerglings but it would really allow for some interesting gameplay. And really? A spell that literally blocks ALL units from going past it (with exception of tier 3 ultra)? At least make queen massive please. Or have it grow with hatchery size, small, medium at lair, massive at hive maybe? Like I said, this is just a suggestion, but really, I haven't heard one that comes close to being this creative. | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
1. Make force fields destructible. 2. Remove collision detection when force fields are initially raised. 3. If any unit exists inside the forcefield, it gets frozen just like Stasis from BW with one caveat: Units trapped inside automatically attack their force field at 50% reduced fire rate (still unable to use spells). What this promotes: - Caster can choose to freeze small chunks of an army rather than block huge chunks. Both choices have their advantages and disadvantages. - FF's being destructible promotes better micro from the defender. | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
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Kakaru2
198 Posts
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
I find it curious that the issue of "anti-micro" abilities didn't reach mainstream concern until people started raging about infestors. (which, also curiously, didn't seem to be a problem at all until about two months ago. News flash... they're the same as they've always been.) Now that zergs are using them more, protoss are totally against the anti-micro abilities... but before they just used to say "lolol l2flank noob" as if it were that simple. Another valuable point... Many people refer to zerg as more a-move centric in their playstyle, but were it not for forcefields maybe we'd have an opportunity to micro more? I have high hopes that by legacy of the void we can see a changed FF and buffed individual gateway units. -Crushgroove | ||
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nyaru267
United States117 Posts
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jesseclaytonjames
20 Posts
On November 19 2012 04:00 nyaru267 wrote: There is nothing wrong with FF. Its the fact that FF's are the only options to surviving against the zerg which is the problem. Not FF's themselves. We need FF's against terran pushes or we will die by 10 minutes. If we get a nerf to zerg then we wont heavily rely on the ff micro. Doesn't that make something wrong then? | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
the mother core stops almost all of the roach pressure you would take damage from in the early / mid game as well | ||
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exog
Norway279 Posts
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Mortal
2943 Posts
On November 19 2012 03:38 therockmanxx wrote: Protoss is gonna have better defense in early game in HotS If you are gonna change the FF now its the time ! i don't think a mo-core is justification enough to remove ff's all together. i'm not saying they need to stay the way they are, but GL balancing a completely new FF as well as the other stuff in HotS. I'm all for a change, but I don't see it being an easy fix at all. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On November 18 2012 22:48 ohampatu wrote: He is complaining about the mechanics of a spell based purely off of one build in one MU. I have watched all of his QQ about the beta. Even his mech posts were horrible. And then pretty much abandons the thread and doesn't even contribute after he posts it. Im not saying he mentioned a change at all. But he is complaining about a unit based off an all-in. This is no different at all than in GSL Open Season 1 when MC went rapefest on people. How did they cope? They learned to re-act to what they were scouting. Currently zerg are trying to 'prepare' for the all-in at their base. This is wrong. You can scout the all-in coming a good 2 minutes before hand. And that is more than enough time to get enough units outside his base to bait/waste FF's. Its only 7 sentries and 3 immortals. Every little bit you slow him down makes it that much more beatable. Shit, even parting just lost recently when playing vs actual good Koreans. Its not the spell, its your mentality and the fact that your responding wrong to the build. If you let him walk into your base without engaging him at all across the map, then your gonna have a bad time. You're really being dense. If you read the post carefully you will understand that MorroW isn't complaining about balance AT ALL. What he's saying, and this is something we've known for a while, is that FF by itself changes the way the PvZ matchup is played, which is almost defined in a good portion of each match, by correct or incorrect FF useage. It isn't stating the ability is OP. Even if the response is correct, and the all-in is stopped, that is in no way related to the discussion at hand. The thing being discussed is that the mere existence of the FF mechanic means the matchup is played around it, and that it damages the way micro is involved in the battles. There's no way around it, for Protoss, if you're good at micro, you can control the outcome of a battle pretty much perfectly, if you're bad at micro, you better not make any sentries and just turtle inside your base, since 1 botched FF will kill you. For Zerg, of course the all-in is beatable, that isn't the problem, it's that battle micro can't have any effect on the outcome of a battle, solution? A-move, which is boring, regardless of who wins. What I fail to understand is why this is being discussed right now since this is an issue that has existed since day 1, FF has always been detrimental to the metagame, even in PvT, in which it's so necessary it just can't be avoided. Without them Terran bio will just walk over you, but since it is actually a very powerful ability, it means gateway units can't be too good, or they'd be grossly overpowered when used in conjunction with FF and warpin. It's a really tough thing to solve, I don't know a way in which FF could be changed that doesn't make Protoss ridiculously weak | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On November 19 2012 03:59 Crushgroove wrote: I find it curious that the issue of "anti-micro" abilities didn't reach mainstream concern until people started raging about infestors. (which, also curiously, didn't seem to be a problem at all until about two months ago. News flash... they're the same as they've always been.) Now that zergs are using them more, protoss are totally against the anti-micro abilities... but before they just used to say "lolol l2flank noob" as if it were that simple. -Crushgroove People have been calling forcefield OP since the beta, it's just that we haven't always been able to succinctly describe why it's a problem of game design instead of "FF OP". | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 19 2012 04:00 nyaru267 wrote: There is nothing wrong with FF. Its the fact that FF's are the only options to surviving against the zerg which is the problem. Not FF's themselves. We need FF's against terran pushes or we will die by 10 minutes. If we get a nerf to zerg then we wont heavily rely on the ff micro. Uh that implies there is still something wrong then lol. Also if they removed/changed forcefield drastically then obviously protoss would have to be buffed to compensate. It's not like morrow was saying "Forcefield should be made not to matter as much but make sure protoss receives no buffs". Anyone who thinks they could nerf forcefield and then not buff to compensate is just being silly. Also if we nerfed zerg so that protosses don't have to rely on FF, tosses wouldn't stop making sentries. That would make zvp unwinnable that way as if you could barely win a fight vs an army without FF imagine an army with FF, no way a toss would lose then. Also zvt would go to shit to, have to think can't just nerf units so that toss doesn't "have" to use forcefield. Would nerf forcefield (remove would be better) and rebuff units from there. I know it won't ever happen, but a man can dream. I feel this would make zvp/tvp much better to watch and would be a drastic first step in making zvp not incredibly boring to watch and play. | ||
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Faent
Canada94 Posts
Im scared right now because I can hear the nerf bat whistling through the air towards the Fungal Growth, but no one has really talked about the force field in so long that Blizzard is probably going to overlook this T_T Hopefully the dominance of these all-ins at the WCS will get the ball rolling | ||
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InstantKarma
United States205 Posts
I think it would fit perfectly balance wise too. Zerg will need to get their late game nerfed by reducing the effectiveness of infestors but then the mid-game of zerg might suffer against protoss all-ins. Hydras will be good in the mid-game against the protoss all-ins but lose effectiveness in the late game as protoss gets colossus. | ||
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