EPTProtoss: OHO! A fight is a brewing.
Zerg sets up the most beautiful surround in history
Protoss: HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD! let me just open up my map editor
FFFFFFFFFFFfffff FF!F!F!F! G
Protoss: A perfect engagement indeed.
A fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 9
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DanLee
Canada316 Posts
Protoss: OHO! A fight is a brewing. Zerg sets up the most beautiful surround in history Protoss: HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD! let me just open up my map editor FFFFFFFFFFFfffff FF!F!F!F! G Protoss: A perfect engagement indeed. | ||
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proofy
Canada283 Posts
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:04 nihlon wrote: He ended his post saying the thread would at least be seen by blizzard employees. It can't hurt, regardless how farfetched it is that blizzard would change this mechanic. The problem is that it isn't just FF. I thought it was a long time consensus on TL that the problem comes from warp-in which makes way for very strong timing attacks because it negates defenders advantage. This leads to somewhat weaker t1 units for P which then leads to the necessity of a strong "defense". et voila FF hits the playing ground. But suddenly P can use those FF offensively (blocking Z ramps but also blocking repairing SCVs). And here we are now on the ruins of warpgates. (weak t1 also lead to strong t3 ground forces -> collosi) So to "fix" this we would need to get rid of warp-in because otherwise P would get overrun from both T and Z in the earlygame. | ||
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Giantt
Bulgaria82 Posts
I see two issues with sentries and force fields First is - cast range - 9 if I am not mistaken - it is far more than the range of roaches and slightly more than the range of hydras creating that invulnerability effect for the protoss army. For me a reasonable tweak would be increasing hydra range which would make the protoss unable to put force fields behind them - or risk losing the casting sentry. Second is - force field is too efficient near zerg bases - using the hatchery to complete the wall. Might sound too drastic but I am thinking about creep preventing force fields from being placed or cutting duration time. | ||
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Broodlings
United States157 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
-But now everyone copy it! -Hey don't say that, it is only for survival, they need to copy it because that's the only thing that sells out of automated paintbrush artists. They say that Fungalism lost it's grace. Actually those two are the opposite of each other in terms of represented ideas. -But what about Terranism? -Ah these resemble the old works of pre-automated paintbrush, paintbrushes used for this are illegal, black-market and stuff. Government banned it. Something because of this "Bunker" painting, I don't know the details, i think no one knows anymore. -But i heard the Avantgarde is coming, maybe they will change the current state of automated paintbrush art? After all they were masters of old Paintbrush, Van Jae Dongh and others! -I am not so sure... | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
How about the whole Protoss & Zerg macro mechanics. Now THAT's what I call fundamental issues. But go ahead, keep complaining about sentries and infestors and whatnot | ||
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TsGBruzze
Sweden1190 Posts
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
Great Job! Should have been done a long time ago, hopefully something will come out of it. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:20 TsGBruzze wrote: This is the reason wht tvz was so awesome before infestors got good. you mean before the queen range buff killed the early game? E: But it somewhat stabilized ZvZ. don't know if this was a good trade. | ||
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Acertos
France852 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:15 Giantt wrote: Agree with Morrow on most. I have a bitter feeling after watching day 2 ZvPs. I see two issues with sentries and force fields First is - cast range - 9 if I am not mistaken - it is far more than the range of roaches and slightly more than the range of hydras creating that invulnerability effect for the protoss army. For me a reasonable tweak would be increasing hydra range which would make the protoss unable to put force fields behind them - or risk losing the casting sentry. Second is - force field is too efficient near zerg bases - using the hatchery to complete the wall. Might sound too drastic but I am thinking about creep preventing force fields from being placed or cutting duration time. This idea about creep nehating forcefields is rly good, protoss would need an or some obs plus it would make the push slower with the main army staying offcreep and a few stalkers poking the hatcheries ! | ||
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WhatsInAName
United States49 Posts
Take the last game of Sen v. Parting for example. He scouts it and his reaction is very poor. - He continues to build drones on 3 bases (while his opponent is on 2). - He waits for his opponent to move out and get in to the perfect position. - Does absolutely nothing to bait force fields or slow the push down. Nothing to snipe the probe or pylon or a few sentries. - Doesn't even make an attempt for a surround All of these things are inexcusable. It's simply mind-numbing as a spectator to see the same pathetic reaction over and over. Stephano is the only one that comes close to handling any of these situations properly. He loses against them from time to time for being stubbornly greedy. Last week: "Zerg so easy to play and is OP." This week: "Protoss so easy to play and is OP." | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
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mememolly
4765 Posts
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:24 WhatsInAName wrote: 1.) Once the build is scouted, different action must be taken. Players can't do the same thing every time and expect to win. I see zergs doing the same thing every time and lose. With the infestor/bl late game pvz, protoss players keep doing the same thing and losing. It is mind-numbing to see little creativity. Must players always whine balance? Take the last game of Sen v. Parting for example. He scouts it and his reaction is very poor. - He continues to build drones on 3 bases (while his opponent is on 2). - He waits for his opponent to move out and get in to the perfect position. - Does absolutely nothing to bait force fields or slow the push down. Nothing to snipe the probe or pylon or a few sentries. - Doesn't even make an attempt for a surround All of these things are inexcusable. It's simply mind-numbing as a spectator to see the same pathetic reaction over and over. Stephano is the only one that comes close to handling any of these situations properly. He loses against them from time to time for being stubbornly greedy. Last week: "Zerg so easy to play and is OP." This week: "Protoss so easy to play and is OP." What race do you play? Either of them? Have you experienced the build done to you (properly, not some terrible diamond player doing it)? I hope so, you should realize that Sen can't attack. He doesn't have enough to warrant suiciding his army. Throwing 30 lings at the small army while it moves out doesn't kill anything. He HAS to wait for Parting to move across so that he can build a bigger army, let his creep get a bit further out, maybe build a few spines, wait for roach speed or +1, etc. It's not NEARLY as easy as you say it is. If you have experienced it and won, and Morrow said, it's because the protoss fucked up, not because you magically found the solution. | ||
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WhatsInAName
United States49 Posts
On November 18 2012 21:52 Fenrax wrote: Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against. That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight. They reduce the ability to micro? Maybe. But then again, you have to micro 3x as much to avoid them. Hmmm... | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:15 Giantt wrote: Agree with Morrow on most. I have a bitter feeling after watching day 2 ZvPs. If you mean the BWC with the two days of PvZ then I would like you to consider that it was the 5 best Korean Protoss against 2 middle tier Korean Zergs plus Stephano plus some foreign Zergs. It was kind of expected that this tournament would be P heavy at the top due to the massive skill difference in qualified players between the races. If the Korean qualifier was held last week (hypothetically, disregarding logistics, scheduling etc) then I am very certain this tournament would not have looked so P heavy. | ||
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WhatsInAName
United States49 Posts
On November 19 2012 02:29 Zenbrez wrote: What race do you play? Either of them? Have you experienced the build done to you (properly, not some terrible diamond player doing it)? I hope so, you should realize that Sen can't attack. He doesn't have enough to warrant suiciding his army. Throwing 30 lings at the small army while it moves out doesn't kill anything. He HAS to wait for Parting to move across so that he can build a bigger army, let his creep get a bit further out, maybe build a few spines, wait for roach speed or +1, etc. It's not NEARLY as easy as you say it is. If you have experienced it and won, and Morrow said, it's because the protoss fucked up, not because you magically found the solution. Watch how Stephano deals with Protoss. Baiting, sniping, surrounding. It's not always perfect, but after watching him, you come to realize that it is not a balance problem, all the other zergs are just simply bad. | ||
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