EPTA fundamental issue about forcefield - Page 7
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Mirosuu
England283 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
The only thing you can do is indirectly nerf FF through something like mana cost maybe, or possibly duration. That way it can still be used defensively, but it is much more difficult to use it aggressively. Even then, I don't see the merit in nerfing any type of Sentry aggression since it is literally the only option P has to punish a Z for being ultra greedy. | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
make queen massive and drop them over forcefield. i dont know but i can probably find 100 different ideas in a couple hours, blizzard should do something about FF and fungals. | ||
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HiTeK532
Canada171 Posts
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Mephyss
Brazil128 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Zerg in general doesn't have a lot of micro potential, I think that is what is causing the problems, not force fields. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On November 18 2012 21:53 syriuszonito wrote: So true, this matchup is awful right now and forcefields are one of main reasons for it (2nd is infestor). I feel like right now toss all ins are way too powerful (and relatively easy to perform) and as you mentioned there is barely any way for zerg to defeat them even with great unit control because all you can do is wait for toss to make a mistake. I think together with infestor nerf there should be some change to weaken toss midgame or its gonna be even worse. Stop. Right there. Weaken Protoss midgame? Yea good plan lets make midgame PvT even more difficult for Protoss. You can't weaken forcefields, or immortals really without obliterating TvP balance. | ||
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orBitual
United States96 Posts
On November 19 2012 00:36 freetgy wrote: unlike fungal, forcefields are are a spell that needs alot more skill than most other casting spells. Sorry, but Sentries Immortal all-ins are going to be always strong, if Zerg insists on fighting with only tier 1 units. Discussion ends, Pro gamers just seem to have found a timing that exploits the tech disadvantage of a fast 3 hatch and now people call this OP?? How about Zerg players just adapt and maybe try a different style? (instead of again asking for a nerf of a style just because it punishes the greedyness of a zerg) You should ask your self the other question from another point of view. How would the balance and win rates look with this Timing didn't work? Most Protoss Pros wouldn't even win probably currently even half of their games, again a testament to the state of the matchup. I think this is a funny post. Protoss can nexus first and take faster gas then zerg, and then demands zerg try a lower econ alternative? So we can be behind in all phases of the game instead of just two?..... | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On November 19 2012 01:06 Wingblade wrote: Stop. Right there. Weaken Protoss midgame? Yea good plan lets make midgame PvT even more difficult for Protoss. You can't weaken forcefields, or immortals really without obliterating TvP balance. Or early P gameplay in general. Sentries are half the reason why P can go low ground to their expansion half the time. On November 19 2012 01:09 orBitual wrote: I think this is a funny post. Protoss can nexus first and take faster gas then zerg, and then demands zerg try a lower econ alternative? So we can be behind in all phases of the game instead of just two?..... Do you see P players complaining that mathematically it is impossible for them to keep up in supply with a Z who perfectly macros? A Z player can hit 200 supply extremely fast (with perfect macro it's somewhere around the 12 minute mark), while a P player at best is sitting somewhere around 110-120. Most of that 200 supply is drones too, so please don't talk like P has some sort of crazy advantage over Z economically when that clearly isn't the case. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
And I mean like a new tech tree. | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
On November 19 2012 00:36 freetgy wrote: unlike fungal, forcefields are are a spell that needs alot more skill than most other casting spells. Sorry, but Sentries Immortal all-ins are going to be always strong, if Zerg insists on fighting with only tier 1 units. What do you mean, people do try infestors and, less often, mutalisks. Discussion ends, Pro gamers just seem to have found a timing that exploits the tech disadvantage of a fast 3 hatch and now people call this OP?? How about Zerg players just adapt and maybe try a different style? (instead of again asking for a nerf of a style just because it punishes the greedyness of a zerg) I don't play at a high enough level to really judge, but this is really the question. Are there no alternatives? In the lower ladder leagues, you can often break down a ffe with early roach or ling/baneling aggression. But on pro level, if it were viable, wouldn't people do it? It's hardly a new idea. I thought it was really striking in the WCS finals how zergs played 3 base 3 times in a row and got killed by that timing 3 times in a row. Why do they feel they have to play that way even after it failed over and over? And what else could it be? | ||
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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ImustnotfeaR
United Kingdom154 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On November 19 2012 01:14 FrogOfWar wrote: What do you mean, people do try infestors and, less often, mutalisks. I don't play at a high enough level to really judge, but this is really the question. Are there no alternatives? In the lower ladder leagues, you can often break down a ffe with early roach or ling/baneling aggression. But on pro level, if it were viable, wouldn't people do it? It's hardly a new idea. I thought it was really striking in the WCS finals how zergs played 3 base 3 times in a row and got killed by that timing 3 times in a row. Why do they feel they have to play that way even after it failed over and over? And what else could it be? its simple, fast 3 hatch can currently punished only by the best of the best with a robo all-in. Everyone else is currently dying left and right to basic roach ling. If Zerg don't die or doesn't get attacked to an all-in you have always a huge advantage in the midgame/late game. Basic pressure builds don't work vs. Zerg anymore. Because if zergs knows you don't all-in they play greedy, and basically have already won the game (just it doesn't seem like it because no one attacks). Up to this point it is now the Zergs job to not fuck up. This is the same for Terran, also their pressure builds are nerfed, Zerg gets too much econ to easy, which easily breaks mid/late game forcing the opponent to do even more all-in timing attacks to have a chance. PS: Imho this can only be fixed if there is a nerf to zergs ecoboosting mechanic. Then it wouldn't feel for P/T like they are playing vs. the clock. | ||
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orBitual
United States96 Posts
On November 19 2012 01:09 superstartran wrote: Or early P gameplay in general. Sentries are half the reason why P can go low ground to their expansion half the time. Do you see P players complaining that mathematically it is impossible for them to keep up in supply with a Z who perfectly macros? A Z player can hit 200 supply extremely fast (with perfect macro it's somewhere around the 12 minute mark), while a P player at best is sitting somewhere around 110-120. Most of that 200 supply is drones too, so please don't talk like P has some sort of crazy advantage over Z economically when that clearly isn't the case. He suggested that zergs go 2-base tech instead of a "greedy" fast 3 hatch. While I pointed out that Protoss is already going to be ahead in econ and tech from a nexus first into double gas if a zerg stays on 2-base. I don't know how your response is relevant at all. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On November 19 2012 01:19 orBitual wrote: He suggested that zergs go 2-base tech instead of a "greedy" fast 3 hatch. While I pointed out that Protoss is already going to be ahead in econ and tech from a nexus first into double gas if a zerg stays on 2-base. I don't know how your response is relevant at all. no actually i did not, 3 hatch is still the best opening vs. toss, because i know that robo all-ins can be stopped if played smart (this was done months ago already, but zerg players got lazy, immortal sentrie all-ins are nothing knew and existed for a long time). econ, pure roach ling defense certainly isn't the way to deal with it (at least on alot of maps) | ||
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Insomni7
667 Posts
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Westy
England808 Posts
First thing, give forcefield a cool down equivalent to how long the forcefield lasts. I can't remember the numbers, but this way, if you want to throw down 8 forcefields at the same time, you need 8 sentries, and not just 2 sentries with maximum energy. First problem with that? Protoss army now becomes very very weak. It now adds to the "Make one micro mistake, and you lose" problem. Now, to slightly counter that. Change Guardian shield. Make it an effect that gets cast on the ground, similar to the Oracle time warp ability. Make it either add Armour to both melee and ranged attacks, or make it a bit like a shield battery spell. Either way, the point is, if zerg engages when the sentries have energy, the fight will become more favorable for the protoss. Giving a zerg a reason to engage early and force the ability to be used, so it drains energy and they can back off and force another one as they get even closer to their expansion. Just a thought. | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
On November 19 2012 00:44 superstartran wrote: Yes but how the hell do you fix FF without screwing up P? If you nerf FF in any way shape or form, Z can just 3 base 200/200 Roach/Ling bust them all day, since perfect FF's, good building placement, and having out a few Immortals in time is the only way to hold that type of timing. FFs in general are crucial to P's survival up to around 8-10 minutes, and without them P is in a huge amount of trouble since their tier 1 is so weak when comparing them to T or Z. It isn't until Blink/Charge is on the field that their tier 1 is any decent, and even then if it's tier 1 P with upgrades vs tier 1 units of Z or T that are fully upgraded, P's Zealot/Stalkers still get obliterated. I posed an alternative when he responded to my post: On November 18 2012 23:22 divito wrote: Rather than really messing with forcefields, I have to wonder if giving them HP along with their 15 seconds would help alleviate some of the issue (I suppose similar to Entomb in HotS). It can't be so small as to be evaporated instantly in late-game armies, but it also can't be large enough to not attract being targeted down. Similar to bringing a massive unit through a forcefield line, but in a meta where Thors and Ultras aren't really utilized (and you'd be silly to throw a Colossus away), this allows a tangible way for the opposition to not be completely stuck. | ||
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Odoakar
Croatia1837 Posts
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