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On November 19 2012 01:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:19 orBitual wrote:On November 19 2012 01:09 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 01:06 Wingblade wrote:On November 18 2012 21:53 syriuszonito wrote:
So true, this matchup is awful right now and forcefields are one of main reasons for it (2nd is infestor). I feel like right now toss all ins are way too powerful (and relatively easy to perform) and as you mentioned there is barely any way for zerg to defeat them even with great unit control because all you can do is wait for toss to make a mistake. I think together with infestor nerf there should be some change to weaken toss midgame or its gonna be even worse. Stop. Right there. Weaken Protoss midgame? Yea good plan lets make midgame PvT even more difficult for Protoss. You can't weaken forcefields, or immortals really without obliterating TvP balance. Or early P gameplay in general. Sentries are half the reason why P can go low ground to their expansion half the time. On November 19 2012 01:09 orBitual wrote:On November 19 2012 00:36 freetgy wrote:
unlike fungal, forcefields are are a spell that needs alot more skill than most other casting spells.
Sorry, but Sentries Immortal all-ins are going to be always strong, if Zerg insists on fighting with only tier 1 units.
Discussion ends, Pro gamers just seem to have found a timing that exploits the tech disadvantage of a fast 3 hatch and now people call this OP??
How about Zerg players just adapt and maybe try a different style? (instead of again asking for a nerf of a style just because it punishes the greedyness of a zerg)
You should ask your self the other question from another point of view. How would the balance and win rates look with this Timing didn't work? Most Protoss Pros wouldn't even win probably currently even half of their games, again a testament to the state of the matchup. I think this is a funny post. Protoss can nexus first and take faster gas then zerg, and then demands zerg try a lower econ alternative? So we can be behind in all phases of the game instead of just two?..... Do you see P players complaining that mathematically it is impossible for them to keep up in supply with a Z who perfectly macros? A Z player can hit 200 supply extremely fast (with perfect macro it's somewhere around the 12 minute mark), while a P player at best is sitting somewhere around 110-120. Most of that 200 supply is drones too, so please don't talk like P has some sort of crazy advantage over Z economically when that clearly isn't the case. He suggested that zergs go 2-base tech instead of a "greedy" fast 3 hatch. While I pointed out that Protoss is already going to be ahead in econ and tech from a nexus first into double gas if a zerg stays on 2-base. I don't know how your response is relevant at all. no actually i did not, 3 hatch is still the best opening vs. toss, because i know that robo all-ins can be stopped if played smart (this was done months ago already, but zerg players got lazy, immortal sentrie all-ins are nothing knew and existed for a long time). econ, pure roach ling defense certainly isn't the way to deal with it (at least on alot of maps)
Can you provide a way to reliably stop an immortal/sentry build that doesn't rely on the protoss messing up ff? What is this "playing smart" that no pro gamer bothers with?
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On November 19 2012 01:35 BlerN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:24 freetgy wrote:On November 19 2012 01:19 orBitual wrote:On November 19 2012 01:09 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 01:06 Wingblade wrote:On November 18 2012 21:53 syriuszonito wrote:
So true, this matchup is awful right now and forcefields are one of main reasons for it (2nd is infestor). I feel like right now toss all ins are way too powerful (and relatively easy to perform) and as you mentioned there is barely any way for zerg to defeat them even with great unit control because all you can do is wait for toss to make a mistake. I think together with infestor nerf there should be some change to weaken toss midgame or its gonna be even worse. Stop. Right there. Weaken Protoss midgame? Yea good plan lets make midgame PvT even more difficult for Protoss. You can't weaken forcefields, or immortals really without obliterating TvP balance. Or early P gameplay in general. Sentries are half the reason why P can go low ground to their expansion half the time. On November 19 2012 01:09 orBitual wrote:On November 19 2012 00:36 freetgy wrote:
unlike fungal, forcefields are are a spell that needs alot more skill than most other casting spells.
Sorry, but Sentries Immortal all-ins are going to be always strong, if Zerg insists on fighting with only tier 1 units.
Discussion ends, Pro gamers just seem to have found a timing that exploits the tech disadvantage of a fast 3 hatch and now people call this OP??
How about Zerg players just adapt and maybe try a different style? (instead of again asking for a nerf of a style just because it punishes the greedyness of a zerg)
You should ask your self the other question from another point of view. How would the balance and win rates look with this Timing didn't work? Most Protoss Pros wouldn't even win probably currently even half of their games, again a testament to the state of the matchup. I think this is a funny post. Protoss can nexus first and take faster gas then zerg, and then demands zerg try a lower econ alternative? So we can be behind in all phases of the game instead of just two?..... Do you see P players complaining that mathematically it is impossible for them to keep up in supply with a Z who perfectly macros? A Z player can hit 200 supply extremely fast (with perfect macro it's somewhere around the 12 minute mark), while a P player at best is sitting somewhere around 110-120. Most of that 200 supply is drones too, so please don't talk like P has some sort of crazy advantage over Z economically when that clearly isn't the case. He suggested that zergs go 2-base tech instead of a "greedy" fast 3 hatch. While I pointed out that Protoss is already going to be ahead in econ and tech from a nexus first into double gas if a zerg stays on 2-base. I don't know how your response is relevant at all. no actually i did not, 3 hatch is still the best opening vs. toss, because i know that robo all-ins can be stopped if played smart (this was done months ago already, but zerg players got lazy, immortal sentrie all-ins are nothing knew and existed for a long time). econ, pure roach ling defense certainly isn't the way to deal with it (at least on alot of maps) Can you provide a way to reliably stop an immortal/sentry build that doesn't rely on the protoss messing up ff? What is this "playing smart" that no pro gamer bothers with?
- its all about killing high energy sentries, though stephano is one of the only zergs i see microing like this regularly.
- besides wasting energy as early as possible
- Engaging in a position that can not be completely shut down by just 3 force fields
- Contaminate
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MorroW you know as well as I know FF isn't the only issue.
We've been through this. The game design is fundamentally flawed and Protoss have to do certain things in order to get the win or else they will get run over rather easily.
MC and co. realize this.
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On November 19 2012 01:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:19 orBitual wrote:On November 19 2012 01:09 superstartran wrote:On November 19 2012 01:06 Wingblade wrote:On November 18 2012 21:53 syriuszonito wrote:
So true, this matchup is awful right now and forcefields are one of main reasons for it (2nd is infestor). I feel like right now toss all ins are way too powerful (and relatively easy to perform) and as you mentioned there is barely any way for zerg to defeat them even with great unit control because all you can do is wait for toss to make a mistake. I think together with infestor nerf there should be some change to weaken toss midgame or its gonna be even worse. Stop. Right there. Weaken Protoss midgame? Yea good plan lets make midgame PvT even more difficult for Protoss. You can't weaken forcefields, or immortals really without obliterating TvP balance. Or early P gameplay in general. Sentries are half the reason why P can go low ground to their expansion half the time. On November 19 2012 01:09 orBitual wrote:On November 19 2012 00:36 freetgy wrote:
unlike fungal, forcefields are are a spell that needs alot more skill than most other casting spells.
Sorry, but Sentries Immortal all-ins are going to be always strong, if Zerg insists on fighting with only tier 1 units.
Discussion ends, Pro gamers just seem to have found a timing that exploits the tech disadvantage of a fast 3 hatch and now people call this OP??
How about Zerg players just adapt and maybe try a different style? (instead of again asking for a nerf of a style just because it punishes the greedyness of a zerg)
You should ask your self the other question from another point of view. How would the balance and win rates look with this Timing didn't work? Most Protoss Pros wouldn't even win probably currently even half of their games, again a testament to the state of the matchup. I think this is a funny post. Protoss can nexus first and take faster gas then zerg, and then demands zerg try a lower econ alternative? So we can be behind in all phases of the game instead of just two?..... Do you see P players complaining that mathematically it is impossible for them to keep up in supply with a Z who perfectly macros? A Z player can hit 200 supply extremely fast (with perfect macro it's somewhere around the 12 minute mark), while a P player at best is sitting somewhere around 110-120. Most of that 200 supply is drones too, so please don't talk like P has some sort of crazy advantage over Z economically when that clearly isn't the case. He suggested that zergs go 2-base tech instead of a "greedy" fast 3 hatch. While I pointed out that Protoss is already going to be ahead in econ and tech from a nexus first into double gas if a zerg stays on 2-base. I don't know how your response is relevant at all. no actually i did not, 3 hatch is still the best opening vs. toss, because i know that robo all-ins can be stopped if played smart (this was done months ago already, but zerg players got lazy, immortal sentrie all-ins are nothing knew and existed for a long time). econ, pure roach ling defense certainly isn't the way to deal with it (at least on alot of maps)
Oh, so instead of droning up a third base, zergs should use a portion (how much?) of their 2-base econ to spine up a hatch (which one?) and then pump roach-ling off <2-base econ, to stop an all-in that can turn around and be ahead in tech and econ. Sick.
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On November 18 2012 21:52 Fenrax wrote:
Fungal and Forcefield are both bad for the game because they reduce the ability to Micro. Frustrating to watch, frustating to play against.
That is probably the main reason why all matchups with T are the most fun to watch. Their units actually just fight.
This is actually so true. I never really realised it before.
Watching Zerg getting force fielded isn't fun at all. It's more like a sigh moment. It's like mid boxing match just giving one of the players a gun. o.O
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On November 19 2012 01:04 Bagi wrote:
Doesn't this apply to terran as well to some extent? Fuck up with your splits/FF and get fucked by banes and a-move. Terran micro almost always dictates how the fight goes.
Zerg in general doesn't have a lot of micro potential, I think that is what is causing the problems, not force fields.
exactly. the problem is on the zerg side of things because they simply have no units that allow great micro. a nerf/change to force fields wouldnt change that.
in tvz it is the same thing. zerg just a moves all his stuff and fungals a bit while terran needs to micro like crazy in order to not get completely obliterated.
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bad design , this was obvious from SC2 beta... colossi mechanics.
Blizzard chooses to do a bad game so every couple of years we buy another one.
They don't want us to play another game for 10 years... it's greed.
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A few ways to mitigate forcefields during an early timing attack:
Bring your units out of your base and meet the protoss units as they are moving across the map. Zerg early and midgame units are the fastest in the game. You need to take advantage of this and run around baiting forcefields before you are stuck in a choke at your base. Think of it like tanks that have to siege up every time the opponent postures in the middle of the map. But instead of buying time, you are lowering available energy.
You can also use counter attacks, though most people know about these. If the toss walls off, try using a nydus.
With your units out on the map, you can get amazing surrounds that leave forcefields useless. And if the toss does burn them all to completely surround themselves, you can fungal the whole pack and finish it off that way.
Basically, forcefields are a crutch for the protoss player. The toughest opponents for toss to face all abuse the fact that toss needs forcefields to survive. Try to control where and when they are used, make that place somewhere far from your base, and then regroup and do it again. Contrary to how it seems, toss doesn't have unlimited forcefields.
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It's amazing that shortcommings to game design really start to apear with player's better micro skills, Fungel/FF both benifit extremely much from it of one side only, while the other player tries what he might his fate is in the hands of his opponent, and without those units the race will be broken as hell.
I honestly have no solution because i simply am not of that level, though i fully agree a RTS should never take micro away from one player and give full control to the other.
Both would need a replacement unit/buff for protoss early game to not get overrun and for Zerg late game to give his broodlords a chance to survive.
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This is a blast from the past. Sadly I have not seen any inclinations that Blizzard are thinking about changing force fields, I suspect we'll be stuck with those for the foreseeable future.
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Everything that negates mirco makes the game/mu very boring to watch and very frustrating to play: forcefields, fungals, broodlings from gglords.
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It's just poor game design that blizzard hoped would just go away. It didn't.
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I said it years ago and I'll say it again, whoever sat in that meeting and thought that cast-able terrain was a good idea on a unit should've been fired. That kind of unit has no place in an rts, and it sure as heck has no place in starcraft. Why the community didn't uproar enough to have it ousted is beyond me. You just cannot balance such a unit.
It was a cool idea... but someone smart should've corrected the guy and said, "Good idea; we aren't doing it." That guy wasn't there, they all high-fived and congratulated each other, exclaimed how the community would love their innovation, and marched off ignorantly, not knowing what they had done.
An rts has a map. We all know the map is crucial for balance sake. Maps balanced broodwar alone. How does a unit that changes the map make any sense?
An rts also, because of the map, has certain distances between bases, expansions, mineral deposits, etc. How does removing that distance make sense? I'm talking about warp-in. Cool idea, bad design. That's another topic, and I probably just lost credibility by bringing it up, but that's what I saw during beta. You just can't do that.
That said, force fields do more harm to the genre than warp-in. I could bite my tongue on warp-in, but I'd love to see force fields go. They alone make me hate zvp. I'd rather fight impossibly strong gateway units than watch my units die for free in a little ball while doing 0 dps.
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Why are there so many posts from bronze league people trying to explain how they beat immortal sentry? I don't think you guys get it. This has nothing to do with that.
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Why are we discussing this again :/
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OP and many others ignore the fact that Zerg units, ie. lings, roaches, are some of the fastest in the game. This allows amazing hit and run, flanks, counter-attacks, that simply are not possible for Terran or Protoss. "Oh you're moving out with 3immortal timing? Let me bait out forcefields and slow you down while I get more units/spines in position to hold your push."
Look at how Stephano plays. He makes really good use of Zerg potential. Ive seen the man flank collosi with zerglings. He took advantage of zergling mobility to kill a unit that is designed to hardcounter zerglings.
It might seem like Zerg rely on Protoss to make a mistake with regards to forcefields. Well then, the Protoss (and Terrans) rely on Zerg to not abuse their mobility. /edit: And there isn't a damn thing we can do about Zerg mobility. See how similar the scenario is?
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On November 19 2012 02:02 therockmanxx wrote:
Why are we discussing this again :/
He ended his post saying the thread would at least be seen by blizzard employees. It can't hurt, regardless how farfetched it is that blizzard would change this mechanic.
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Disablers can be fun, they are fundamental part of Dota. And there are similar issues - a whole game may depend on hitting good Black Hole, Chronosphere, Song of the Siren etc. So I don't believe that we need RTS with no disabling spells, but I agree they may be too overwhelming currently in SC2 and need some fixes.
I think the way spells work in SC2 is too conservative: simple rules, to avoid complicated explanations. However, for good gameplay the rules may require to be more complex. For example: using a certain ability reduces some "cooldown power meter" which restores with time. So that you can't just make 50 spell casters and cast that ability endlessly and recklessly, you are still limited to a reasonable amount of uses for a period of time.
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I agree that FFs prevent micro on the Zerg end, but I don't think it's correct to bunch them into the same category as fungals (Blizzard preventing micro). For starters, FFs aren't as abusive in other matchups. Taking a look at PvP and PvT, the early-mid game features some intensive micro battles where FFs can play a huge role in fights (w/o the spammy nature you see in PvZ). In those two matchups, you have the option to invest heavily into massing low tier units or tech for "counters" to FFs at through dropships, blink stalkers, or early massive units. Zergs don't have that option so you're left with these engagements where it looks like a straight "mass and a-move" approach with the Protoss skill determining the outcome.
Basically, rather than focusing on FFs as the issue, I think we should look at the Zerg race for possible solutions. IMO a criteria that should be filled is having the "FF counter" as an outlier tech just so that the natural progression won't counter everything (as what you have with Infestors). If you agree with that opinion, then the simplest solution would be to make Swarm Host massive (but then you run into the problem of them being useless unburrowed). Another solution could be to give Locusts innate burrow-move.
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EPT
