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Italy12246 Posts
On November 07 2012 23:42 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 23:17 LOLingBuddha wrote:
even if something has a 50:50 w/l that doesnt mean that its exciting.
what are the actual win/loss rates for when the zerg actually gets to tech to this composition? let's say how many times does a zerg lose when hes got 20 infestors and 8 broodlords? THATS what they should be looking at...
OK, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that barring some outlier games, 50% of the time Zerg is unable to survive against Protoss until Hive and Toss wins, and 50% of the time, Zerg manages to get Infestor/Broodlord and Zerg wins. The problem is, no one is talking about nerfing Protoss, everyone is on the "nerf Zerg" bandwagon. So let's say Blizzard finally gives the pitchfork mob what they want, and nerfs Infestors and Broodlords. Now 50% of the time Zerg dies before Hive like before, and when they do manage to survive and get Hive tech, they still die half the time, because the game is "balanced", the way people want it. But wait, Infestors themselves are not Hive tech. Zerg still loses to Protoss if they just have Infestors and no Broodlords. Case in point, DRG vs Rain, where Rain won every game with a pre-Hive push. DRG had lots of Infestors, but no Broodlords, and the "oh-so-OP" Infestors, which, according to some very talented pro players, are all a Zerg needs to win tournaments and collect totally undeserved oversized checks, somehow failed to allow DRG to skillessly a-move his way to victory. So if Infestors are nerfed like everyone wants them to be, Zerg probably can't even survive 50% of the time until Hive tech in the first place. But the mob has their pitchforks and they've decided their new target. Infestors were it for a while, they got them nerfed, were satisfied for a while, until they chose Mutalisks as their new target. They got a hard hard counter for it, which it turned out they didn't even need. Then again Infestors became it. So I wonder, if Infestors are nerfed, and ZvP win rates dip into something like 30%, what will the new target be? Mutalisks again? Or perhaps... Hydralisks?????
Problem with that is that a ton of the protoss wins come from an all-in (immortal sentry). In general, all-ins tend to be easier in being figured out and beaten over time; they might be extremely popular at one point but in the long term they won't be a reliable way to win games.
Look at all the other 2 base all-ins that P has thrown at Z in the history of PvZ, eventually people just get enough practice against that kind of play that they are only used once in a while, rather than forcing a matchup to revolve around them.
That said yes, it's possible that if infestor/broodlord is nerfed, a buff to the Zerg midgame will be necessary. No matter what that buff is though, it would likely not help vs immortal/sentry since that build hits before any tech (except hydras i suppose) can ready in time.
Also Nyast, please show me games with 13 minute broodlords. Off a 9 minute infestation pit, the fastest possible is like 14.50 i think.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:45 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 00:01 ZjiublingZ wrote:
It sounds like they are expecting a meta-game shift where Zerg's play less economical in the early-mid game so as to be safer vs Terran and Protoss, and thus making their late-game weaker and/or come significantly later. Allowing Protoss and/or Terran to deal with the Zerg late game easier. (For example, it might just be that the Immortal/Sentry all in makes it so Zerg's can't go for the gasless 3 base style, leading to a completely different ZvP meta-game).
Do you feel like this is valid logic, or a reasonable expectation? No, I think it's bullshit. If you've been watching the metagame, you should have noticed that the trend is to getting *earlier* brood lords, not delaying them. A year ago, 17' was the standard for getting BLs+infestors. Nowadays, Zergs have gotten better at scouting and knowing whether they're safe or not. And at delaying Protoss, by dropping a shitton of spines and doing run-bys, or even sacrificing their entire army. The first brood lords start morphing at 15' behind a strong lings/infestors army, spine wall and insane economy. I've recently seen some pro games where the first brood lords were starting morphing at the 13' minute mark. The better Zergs become, the earlier they can get their brood lords/infestors combo. There's also a difference between the sentries/immortals all-in, and the late game BLs+infestors combo. With the sentries/immortals all-in, the fate of Zerg is in its own hands. It's hard, but it's mostly a matter of anticipating long enough in advance, and not under-estimating ( nor over-estimating ) the push. And engaging in an open space at the right time. Once the BLs+infestors combo is out, Protoss has to rely on a lucky vortex or major mistake engagement from Zerg. There isn't much to be done here. It's too late, our fate is no longer in our hands. And it's understandable. If you open a replay in this situation and check army values ( in minerals and gas worth ) you'll notice that Zerg's army is x1.5 to x2's worth of Protoss. The whole unbalance problem comes from that IMO: when maxed, armies do not have comparable worth. It is currently not possible with Protoss ground/gate units to find a combo that can rival Zerg's army. Even if we had all the resources and time of the world to get those units out, it's a unit design/composition restriction at the core of the game. Carriers + archons + templars can actually rival the worth of a BL+infestor army, but here the problem is transition, so I won't enter into this debate. There's no ground army compo that can stand on its own against BL+infestors, that's all I want to say.. and it's a problem.
I wanted to reinforce the above point
And it's understandable. If you open a replay in this situation and check army values ( in minerals and gas worth ) you'll notice that Zerg's army is x1.5 to x2's worth of Protoss.
It would be broken if, as a protoss, you could take a current ground army and crush a composition of ~20-25 infestors and 20 brood lords, but in a delayed max vs max situations, economics fail to apply because you are stuck at the supply cap, and the supply efficiency of 4 supply brood lords and 2 supply infestors with chain fungals or 8 IT's per infestor is insane. Its one of the biggest problems of the composition.
If he dedicates 50 supply of his max to infestors (and he can and will sack drones for spine crawlers if he has enough money to do this) and then he uses 10 of those infestors for fungals only, the other 30 supply of them can create 120 infested terrans near instantly. I dont think most people can comprehend the power of that.
This is what army value looks like when toss is maxed on a stalker based composition and zerg has sacked everything for Infestor, Broodlord, Spines:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iw6TW.png)
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"Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate."
Was this translated correctly? Didnt he mean to say "Balance patches shouldnt be made..."
He cant possible be saying that they will patch the game if a single player dominates to hard. Thats Ridiculous. But now that i think about it looks like they actually have balanced the game around Mvp's dominance.
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
On November 08 2012 00:58 Fjodorov wrote:
"Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate."
Was this translated correctly? Didnt he mean to say "Balance patches shouldnt be made..."
He cant possible be saying that they will patch the game if a single player dominates to hard. Thats Ridiculous. But now that i think about it looks like they actually have balanced the game around Mvp's dominance.
I dont think so. Terrans got a lot of flak for being overly popular at GSL and the strongest at high level play for quite a while, but honestly that was a mixture of popularity and the race being overtuned at first. People have said it was one or the other, but both are big factors, i think
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On November 08 2012 00:58 Fjodorov wrote:
"Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate."
Was this translated correctly? Didnt he mean to say "Balance patches shouldnt be made..."
He cant possible be saying that they will patch the game if a single player dominates to hard. Thats Ridiculous. But now that i think about it looks like they actually have balanced the game around Mvp's dominance.
Yes I just rechecked the interview. Let me re-translate/phrase it for you.
"In terms of balance changes, they should be made when a race becomes too strong due to a single progamer or due to a single strategy."
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On November 08 2012 00:52 Teoita wrote:
Also Nyast, please show me games with 13 minute broodlords. Off a 9 minute infestation pit, the fastest possible is like 14.50 i think.
I'd like to find it back, but I forgot who was in that match. It was a couple weeks ago, so before the MLG. If I remember well, the Protoss had taken a fast third, and Zerg did a standard 3-hatch no-gas, and timed his infestation pit to start just after the lair, and then dropped his spire at the exact second he started hive. This resulted in one of the smoothest teching I've ever seen in a Zerg build. And the first brood lords starting at 13'.
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On November 07 2012 21:38 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 21:33 Yorbon wrote:On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote:hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)  i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that. Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi
I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll.
Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened? I mean, you did read the post i was quoting, right?
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On November 08 2012 01:07 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 21:38 aTnClouD wrote:On November 07 2012 21:33 Yorbon wrote:On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote:hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please) i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that. Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll. Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened?
He's free to do whatever he wants with his time, you know.
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On November 08 2012 01:13 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 01:07 Yorbon wrote:On November 07 2012 21:38 aTnClouD wrote:On November 07 2012 21:33 Yorbon wrote:On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote:hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please) i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that. Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll. Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened? He's free to do whatever he wants with his time, you know.
No, if you post on teamliquid it means you absolutely have no time to practice during the day. The two things just don't fit together.
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 08 2012 01:07 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 00:52 Teoita wrote:
Also Nyast, please show me games with 13 minute broodlords. Off a 9 minute infestation pit, the fastest possible is like 14.50 i think. I'd like to find it back, but I forgot who was in that match. It was a couple weeks ago, so before the MLG. If I remember well, the Protoss had taken a fast third, and Zerg did a standard 3-hatch no-gas, and timed his infestation pit to start just after the lair, and then dropped his spire at the exact second he started hive. This resulted in one of the smoothest teching I've ever seen in a Zerg build. And the first brood lords starting at 13'.
Holy shit that's greedy (and easily exploitable) :O. I guess it was played on Entombed?
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david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
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On November 07 2012 01:02 wwowz wrote:
Warhound is removed from HOTS. We heard that there will be completely new unit being added.
We were going to add new units for Terran but currently we believe that reapers, hellbets and widow mines are sufficient in HOTS. Adding back warhound, or adding a new unit is not yet being considered.
David Kim, I really want to kill you.
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On November 07 2012 02:52 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 02:51 n0ise wrote:
"However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments"
Biggest troll ever, gj Is it a troll? They are probably looking at GSL and OSL results mostly...
The GSL that a Zerg just won? Or the current one where half the Ro16 is Zerg? Or all the WCS events outside Korea, or the last few MLGs, or NASL, or DH Bucharest...
If he's suggesting Zerg isn't winning most things right now, he's out of his mind.
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for me, i just want the game to be released soon.
game looking fairly balanced and I care more about the fun than exact balance
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United Kingdom20274 Posts
The dozens of people competing for tens of thousands of dollars sure want dat fun alright
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On November 07 2012 10:26 wwowz wrote:
Why does hellbat in HOTS given a biological armor? Isn't hellbat a mechanical unit?
In Thor/Tank composition, we wanted it to fight as hellion where as in bio force, we wanted it to fight as hellbat.
What the fuck!? Didn't they say they added the hellbat to make mech more viable? So they want it to be a new bio unit? And are even considering disallowing it to transform it back so it becomes a non-flexible/boring unit again???
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LOL bl/infestor its not a problem, its a VERY expensive army and therefore should be as good. a lot of terrans are playing in such a horrible way, they seem to be stuck in the "we must throw away units early game" thinking.
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On November 08 2012 01:07 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 21:38 aTnClouD wrote:On November 07 2012 21:33 Yorbon wrote:On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote:hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please) i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that. Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll. Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened? I mean, you did read the post i was quoting, right?
There is an infested terran scroll
Fungal isn't the only problem. One infestor can provide simply too much firepower with Infested Terrans considering Infestors are only 2 supply. +3 Infested Terrans do more damage than +3 unstimmed marines, that's a problem when they don't cost supply.
On November 08 2012 02:54 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
LOL bl/infestor its not a problem, its a VERY expensive army and therefore should be as good. a lot of terrans are playing in such a horrible way, they seem to be stuck in the "we must throw away units early game" thinking.
Bullshit reasoning. Zerglings beat Thors. Marines / Stalkers beat air. Broodlords without support suck yet they are expensive. The synergy between infestor and Broodlord is simply unreal.
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The more I hear from David Kim the more I become convinced that he's in over his head.
It isn't a matter of him not understanding BL/Infestor is OP, it's a matter of him somehow not understanding key concepts. People want the game to be fun - this means one race shouldn't rely on a gimmicky spell (vortex), one race shouldn't have a massive advantage at one point in the game or another (mid-game sentry/immortal or late game BL/Infestor). These things may result in "balance" in terms of win rates, but they create a boring to play and boring to watch game. Kim doesn't seem to understand this concept. We just want things to be fun.
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On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote:
david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
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EPT
