He answered the questions on the new HOTS UI, a potential new Terran unit in HOTS, Zerg OP, unbeatable BL/Infestor, a possible WOL balance patch, etc
I use google translate and find that the first interview addresses these urgent, important questions that the many people want an answer from Blizzard. Hopefully someone will translate these interviews
Don't know whether this thread is legitimate enough to stay
I assume he was interviewed in english and it was then translated - how do these transcripts always seem to get lost? Can't they just post the english version as well?
On November 07 2012 00:24 Callynn wrote: I assume he was interviewed in english and it was then translated - how do these transcripts always seem to get lost? Can't they just post the english version as well?
David Kim is a Korean citizen who grew up in Korea.
"Zerg OP, unbeatable BL/Infestor" I would love to hear this topic from blizzards point of view. Have been nagging about this part a couple of months now .
On November 07 2012 00:24 Callynn wrote: I assume he was interviewed in english and it was then translated - how do these transcripts always seem to get lost? Can't they just post the english version as well?
David Kim is Korean, he presented a award on last year's Blizzard Cup and gave speech in fluent Korean.
On November 07 2012 00:24 Callynn wrote: I assume he was interviewed in english and it was then translated - how do these transcripts always seem to get lost? Can't they just post the english version as well?
David Kim is a Korean citizen who grew up in Korea.
Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Typical recycled answers of Race distribution are fine and winrate is fine. Such garbage...I'm pretty sure they don't even play or watch the game anymore.
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
But when I asked him about this statement he said that they arent doing this anymore. (press at GC 2012)
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
That's fine, but I'm pretty sure Blizzard has said on numerous occasions that they don't want one-dimensional matchups and that they don't want one race to be doing the same thing every single game. That was the rationale for nerfing BFHs, Snipe, buffing Queens, and so on. I see no reason why suddenly Immortal/Sentry every game is acceptable.
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
But when I asked him about this statement he said that they arent doing this anymore. (press at GC 2012)
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
But when I asked him about this statement he said that they arent doing this anymore. (press at GC 2012)
Maybe in HotS, but I think it's too late to fix that in WoL, without complete redesign.
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
But when I asked him about this statement he said that they arent doing this anymore. (press at GC 2012)
Maybe in HotS, but I think it's too late to fix that in WoL, without complete redesign.
Yeah. They wont completely redesign WoL for sure. This was about HotS.
On November 07 2012 00:39 benthekid wrote: Typical recycled answers of Race distribution are fine and winrate is fine. Such garbage...I'm pretty sure they don't even play or watch the game anymore.
I'm pretty sure they do. But I'm also quite sure that Kim and Browder have had some media-instructions/training by Blizzard HQ on how to answer in interviews. If they went out and said that they believe a matchup is broken or imbalanced, then until the moment that a balance patch comes out, any results in that matchup would be devaluated by the community. Which is why you don't hear them say things stronger than "we think all is fine, but we're looking into X" until they come out with a patch.
It's also why these interviews rarely have any big new revelations in them. Information is dispersed at the rate Blizzard chooses and not whenever an interviewer asks a clever question.
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
But when I asked him about this statement he said that they arent doing this anymore. (press at GC 2012)
I am the source. I work for instarcraft.de and had a great talk with him in the panel with him.
I came to the topic because of the queen buff which nullified terrans aggression in the early game (at that time period). Also you can see this at the changes HotS is doing. There are no overly powerful allins. Early game is buffed by every game and cheese is very hard to pull off. etc etc Zerg gets midgame units, No try to increase deathball power
On November 07 2012 00:53 SuperYo1000 wrote: sooo Protoss immortal sentry all in to a decent winrate is acceptable and NOT boring?! Blizzard going overboard with the crazy pills I think
Doesnt it seem like the statements that David or Dustin make is the complete opposite to what the community generally agree on?
We don't know what they are saying because we don't have a translation yet... wwowz is working on one.
On November 07 2012 00:53 SuperYo1000 wrote: sooo Protoss immortal sentry all in to a decent winrate is acceptable and NOT boring?! Blizzard going overboard with the crazy pills I think
Doesnt it seem like the statements that David or Dustin make is the complete opposite to what the community generally agree on?
Immortal-Sentry is boring when you don't put your soul into it.
Well, again, Blizzard don't make sence. I really hope HotS comes out soon, so we can have some actual feedback from the game designers, since, most likely, they stopped caring about the balance in WoL.
Lot's of new patches were released recently in HOTS. What were the rationales behind them?
First of all, we added clan system to allow players to interact with each other. We are also preparing for the up coming "group" system. To explain more about this, players will be able to create a group based on certain topic for e.g. Protoss players may want to join group "protoss" to interact with other players, or a fan of SKT1 Rain may want to join the group "Rain FAN!". Also this patch vastly updated versus A.I. mode by adding about 10 levels of difficulties.
Also we noticed that the ladder system in WoL was very hardcore. This might have stressed out many casual players. Therefore, we decided to add non-ranked ladder system where it involves the same ladder search mechanism as the ranked counterpart but the points and rankings will not be affected. Finally, until now we were rewarding the players who are successful in getting lots of wins. However, this is changed as we incorporated levelling system to allow casual players to easily access the rewards as well.
HOTS implanted several updates on UI, especially auto-mining/split and selecting idle army.
These UI updates are designed for beginners. When we were adding these features to the game, we were cautious to not allow the gaming at pro-level to be easier while allowing beginners to easily approach the game. Honestly, I highly doubt features like selecting idle army units will be used in pro-level gaming.
Recently Zerg has been dominating in WoL. Protoss players especially are complaining about it. Are you aware of this?
Yes, we are receiving tons of feedbacks regarding this. However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments. If we look at the race distribution, I don't think it's not that bad. However, I believe that there is flaw in the game design. For e.g. it is very hard to face late game zerg composition without mothership's vortex. Therefore in HOTS, we are trying to provide solutions by adding units like Tempest. We are aware of Zerg's dominance but we are waiting for more results to show up.
Many Protoss players have been complaining that it is impossible to deal with BL-Infestor combo. Some pro-players are suggesting that it is impossible to beat late game PvZ.
Yes we are aware that such issues are present. However in Starleague, Protoss players dominated against zerg players and considering other tournaments, PvZ is not completely one sided. There is a problem with the match up but we believe that it can be fixed through various patches. As for now, we should take time to decide wether this is a serious problem or not. If we believe that it is not an issue, balance updates will be focused on HOTS.
HOTS introduced many new units. What are Blizzard's favorite units and why?
Recently we have been getting lots of feedbacks on widow mines being op. However we believe that although it is strong unit, immediate nerf isn't necessary. We are trying to make Oracle, Widow Mines and Swarm host stronger and more viable units. (apparently David Kim chose Swarm Host as hist favorite unit)
In HOTS, we want new strategies to revolve around new units. Although HOTS isn't balanced fully, we are experimenting with many things.
Warhound is removed from HOTS. We heard that there will be completely new unit being added.
We were going to add new units for Terran but currently we believe that reapers, hellbets and widow mines are sufficient in HOTS. Adding back warhound, or adding a new unit is not yet being considered.
Reapers are rarely used in WoL. Do you think this issue has been resolved in HOTS?
We are seeing great improvement in the beta. Reapers will be much more viable in TvT or TvZ early game. If we believe the units are still being underused, we are willing to make it stronger. We are trying to make them more viable units for harassment.
Recently, some communities are speculating rework on Terran's Raven. Any thoughts on this for HOTS?
We are almost done designing the new units. Now we are considering to completely re-design several units such as Void-ray and Raven.
Swarm Hosts in HOTS seems to change the metagame by a lot. We want know if Blizzard is satisfied with its design.
Yes, Swarm Host is one of the most satisfying new unit of HOTS. There is so much potential in this unit interms of multi tasking, long ranged siege moves, and even drop plays. Other units are more exposed during drop plays but Swarm Hots can avoid them very easily. Also Swarm Host is very "zerg" like unit. In terms of concepts and gameplay, we are very much satisfied with Swarm Host.
Infestors are one of the major units why zerg is considered to be "OP". Will there be any changes in HOTS?
We are hoping to avoid directly nerfing Infestors. The reason being is that it is the core unit of late game zerg composition. We should be careful not to nerf infesotrs. However, we are willing to make other units to counter Infestors better. For instance, Protoss has Temepst to deal with BL-Infestors much more efficiently. As such, there will not be any direct nerfs on infestor.
Recently Carriers have been added to the game once again. In WoL, Carriers are being suggested as the answer to late game zerg but it is highly inefficient. Is this still the case in HOTS?
There is no doubt that Carriers need to be buffed. We are still afraid that carriers being used as "a-move" units in pro level play. Therefore we are only considering to add minor buffs to it. We are thinking of making interceptors immune to Infestor's fungal growth.
However, we are focusing on the general metagame trend of the game so I believe it is too early for us decide how they will be changed. We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
Most of the new units introduced for Protoss in HOTS are flying units. What are your thoughts on this?
Protoss players have been focusing on Robotics Facility or Templar Archive Tech as the metagame. The use of Stargate is very rarely seen. This is why we are adding more flying units.
Oracle received several new abilities through a recent update. What are your thoughts?
In the past, Oracle was so much viable in all skills levels. Therefore we decided to change this by adding new abilities that depend more on skills of a player. Although we are still at its infant stage, they seem to be more efficient than the previous design. We believe that they are approaching the final design.
We are ware that release date of HOTS is not decided yet. Considering this, will there be any more balance updates for WoL?
If we believe that update is necessary, we are definitely going to implant it. Although it may seem like an update is needed, we are not planning to do so right away. If it's needed, we will work on it as fast as we can.
HOTS implanted several features to protect the privacy of the players. However this is limited to the custom games. Were there any feedbacks from pro gamers?
Currently there are lots of barcode in Korean Ladder. We are trying to add more features so that players don't have to use barcode. We are constantly discussing how we should takle this problem.
HOTS implanted several changes in custom games. However, it is still not the same as BW or Warcraft3 where players were able to make their own titles.
Although you can't change the name of the game created, we are implanting many other things in HOTS. We are trying to make rarely played games to be more exposed to the players. Therefore we are still not considering to add such feature.
Resuming from replay feature has been announced.
We are still developing it. We think e-sports will benefit massively from this feature. Just by having the replay file should allow players to resume the game. No other requirements will be necessary.
Any information regarding the Beta period?
We are satisfied with the game design. We are planning to monitor the game for the next 2-3 weeks. After that we are going to add more balance changes. We will release the game when it is fully balanced.
How is the single player in HOTS?
Cinematic is amazing (lol). It will mainly focus on the revenge of Kerrigan. More info will be released soon.
Which Korean player is giving the most feedback?
Not so much from the players. However, GOM TV Caster Engine is helping us a lot. He is playing random at high level. His experience as caster is also helpful. That is why we also ask him for more feedback.Players rarely give feedbacks and when they do, they only focus on one specific matchup.
Any players in particular you are interested in?
I love SKT1 Rain, LG-IM MVP, AcerScarlett and EG Stephano. I hope Stephano wins the WCS.
Recent Code S winner Startale Life has been setting new paradigm in Zerg's play style. What are your thoughts on this?
Life is very interesting and unique player. We love players who are innovative and play differently. We are still amazed how new strategies are being created at this point in time.
Any words to the fans who will experience HOTS in G-star 2012?
Since the game is still at its developing phase, it will not be able to deliver the best game experience. However, we are hoping that people would appreciate the potential in the game. Please leave feedbacks on the forum after experiencing HOTS. Personally, I hope MVP, DRG and Rain to succeed in G-star 2012 (lol)
DONE! I had to rush this translation as I have so much work to do but I enjoyed the interview in general. Please let me know if you guys have any problem with the translations. Thanks!
LOL sooo typical answers. Nothing of substance. Part of the reason why other companies like Relic and Valve are way ahead of the game. Blizzard could release a chicken strapped with a cannon for terran for all we know.
On November 07 2012 00:36 Shiori wrote: Why they'd look at winrate if all their feedback is saying something different is beyond me. Most people believe that PvZ, at least, is Protoss all-inning their way to a semi-decent winrate. That doesn't mean Zerg isn't favoured in a macro game, though.
Kim cleared that up earlier - they deliberately do not balance races equally for all stages of a game in time. They intentionally make certain races stronger at certain times of a matchup.
But this becomes an issue when the maps are all gear towards macro games. Almost all maps now have an easy third and a fairly accessible fourth leading to a lot more macro games. Therefore, if some races have an inherit advantage in the macro game, then you will see results tilting towards that race.
On November 07 2012 01:04 SarcasmMonster wrote: Good job!
Edit: Blizz seems reluctant to change WOL's PvZ. Unfortunate.
First: Thanks to wwowz!
Second: Imagine how fast Protoss players will switch to HotS while Zerg could be playing WoL for a long time. This is a possibility that is created by this terrible terrible da.. design of Broodlord/Infestor. Would be pretty funnny if most Protoss instantly switch while most Zerg keep playing since they have this immens advantage in the lategame.
On November 07 2012 01:04 SarcasmMonster wrote: Good job!
Edit: Blizz seems reluctant to change WOL's PvZ. Unfortunate.
First: Thanks to wwowz!
Second: Imagine how fast Protoss players will switch to HotS while Zerg could be playing WoL for a long time. This is a possibility that is created by this terrible terrible da.. design of Broodlord/Infestor. Would be pretty funnny if most Protoss instantly switch while most Zerg keep playing since they have this immens advantage in the lategame.
While wwowz works on the full, I went for a quick summary so you can grasp the general idea.
DISCLAIMER: the following is a SUMMARY not a full translation. read wwowz's for full. Don't judge me or DK or whatever solely based on the summary below. As usual, a lot of what we know already - but at least more substance than the usual PR fluff we get from other Blizz executives.
Well and active outside Korea, quite slow in Korea. Hoping to get lots of Korean progamer feedback from Gstar 2012.
- New features in the recent patch?
Clan support, group/chat support, 10 AI difficulties, casual ladder, account levelling system
- New interface, all unit attack command, auto-mining?
Yes, trying to make game more casual-friendly while not affecting pro-level play too much. Not anticipating the professionals to use all-attack command too often.
- Zerg OP, Protoss UP?
We get lots of feedbacks like that. Top-level tournament racial spread and win ratios aren't too lop-sided though. We do think there might be a design flaw. It is indeed difficult to PvZ late game without the Mothership's vortex. Our solution is to introduce alternative counters like Tempest in HOTS. We will continue to watch Z play but so far we don't have anything super conclusive.
- BL/infestor OP?
We see why people are saying that, but we saw in the recent Starleague that P can beat Z. It may be a problem but first we need to identify how serious of a problem it is. Any solutions to address the problem (if any) to come with HOTS.
- Feedbacks regarding new units in HOTS?
Lots of people said widow mines are OP. It's strong, but not overly strong enough to warrant a direct nerf from what we've seen. We plan to strengthen oracle for P, widow mine for T, and swarm host for Z. We want the new HOTS units to be the core of new strategies.
- Bloodhound gone?
Yes, and we had plans to maybe introduce another unit, but maybe new reaper/hell bat/widow mine is enough. Still open for discussion.
- In WOL reapers are pretty much never used. Better in HOTS?
From beta test so far, they're super good. Probably going to be used a lot in early TvZ or TvT. We want this unit to be influential early game, but not game-ending.
- Some communities are talking about remaking underused units like the raven.
All new HOTS units' designs are pretty much complete at this point. As for WOL units like raven and void ray, we are discussing whether we want to remake/tweak it or to just make new units out of them.
- Swarm host seems to be adding a lot of diversity to Z gameplay.
We are most satisfied about this unit. It's quite versatile. Plus it's very Zerg-y. We think this unit is great in both concept and gameplay.
- Still, infestors OP.
We don't wanna nerf it directly, as it is the core late game Z unit. We want to introduce new/alternative counters to other races. Tempest should be able to deal with infestors and swarm hosts.
- Carriers are back. Still not a great solution to late game PvZ.
It could use a minor buff maybe, but at pro level this unit can make big impact even without intricate micromanagement. We are considering something like interceptors being immune to fungals. Still we can't say anything for sure. We watched a NA pro [T/N: Nony] make a post about SCBW carrier vs SC2 carrier. We noted that one or two things (from that post) may help the SC2 carrier.
- So many Protoss air units?
Yes, because late game P composition seems too lack Stargate units.
- Oracle was given a new ability in the recent patch.
The previous skills had similar impacts whether a pro or casual used them. Now, the new ability is quite variant depending on the user's skill. We are monitoring it, but we think it's close to completion.
- No release date for HOTS, so more patches for WOL?
If needed, of course. Lately it looks like there may be a need for one, but as of now we don't have any solid plans.
- New personal ID protection features in HOTS? We know it's limited to custom games so far.
There are a bunch of barcode ID's in Korean ladder. We want less barcodes. Hopefully we implement something that protects pro's privacy so they don't have to use barcodes.
- Still can't make custom names for custom games like BW and WC3.
Changes will come to custom game system, but no custom names.
- Replays?
In development.
- Anything more about HOTS release and stuff?
We're satisfied with the game design. We will continue to monitor the beta process for next 2-3 weeks without making major changes. When we think we've achieved perfect balance then we'll release the game.
- What about single player / campaign?
Cinematics are incredibly amazing (laughs). Storyline evolves around Kerrigan's revenge. More details to come later.
- Who's gives most/best feedback amongst Korean progamers?
The progamers don't actually say much, but GOM's Caster Ahn Joon Young is giving us the most feedback. He tries a lot of new strategies but still remains at top level ladder play. Plus he casts games, so he has great insight. Players themselves only focus on one race and they're more for winning rather than exploring.
- Favourite player / someone you personally follow closely?
Rain, MVP, and Stephano. Also Scarlett. Also Life because he's writing a new paradigm in Z strategies.
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
That translation hints at possible Swarm Host buffs, which seems completely out of left field. I absolutely love having an option to control the pace of the game as zerg, but I can't imagine where they're getting their data from if fungal growth isn't on the chopping block and the issues with vipers aren't being looked at.
Fungal growth has been getting a ton of flak at all levels of play, and blinding cloud in vT and vP is programmed to be ineffective vs anything that's not a tank or a structure. Units have melee range under the cloud, so the pathing AI simply tells them to walk to attack distance- which is out from under the cloud. You end up auto-splitting an enemy's marines for him.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well.
On November 07 2012 01:32 Cheekio wrote: That translation hints at possible Swarm Host buffs, which seems completely out of left field. I absolutely love having an option to control the pace of the game as zerg, but I can't imagine where they're getting their data from if fungal growth isn't on the chopping block and the issues with vipers aren't being looked at.
Fungal growth has been getting a ton of flak at all levels of play, and blinding cloud in vT and vP is programmed to be ineffective vs anything that's not a tank or a structure. Units have melee range under the cloud, so the pathing AI simply tells them to walk to attack distance- which is out from under the cloud. You end up auto-splitting an enemy's marines for him.
Doesnt it seem like 70% of there buffs or nerfs are out of left field? I think the most common post after any patch is
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
People will always leave older games for newer ones even if the new are inferior. >90% gamers are casuals and casuals get bored.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
People will always leave older games for newer ones even if the new are inferior. >90% gamers are casuals and casuals get bored.
League of Legends is an older game than Starcraft 2, lol.
No question that It's more casual friendly though ;o
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well.
It isn't just about win rates. It is about the games themselves. During the 1-1-1 era, TvP win rates weren't that bad either. But it just wasn't fun to see whether the Terran could execute the 1-1-1 properly or whether the p could hold it.
Also, not sure how he expects the Korean pros to try out HoTS and give feedback when all the big tournaments are all still running WoL and there is no definitive timeline for HoTS. Plus with patches every 2 weeks, how would they refine builds? Foreign pros have a lot more incentive because they stream and HoTS at the beginning gave them bigger stream numbers.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well.
Everyone knows that, that has been standard Blizzard response since ever. And that kind of reasoning is retarded.
According to that reasoning, Zergs having a 100% unloseable lategame would be perfectly balanced as long as a Terran 11 / 11 rax has a 50% win rate at the highest level. Tic-tac-toe is pretty balanced too, is it fun to watch?
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well.
Everyone knows that, that has been standard Blizzard response since ever. And that kind of reasoning is retarded.
According to that reasoning, Zergs having a 100% unloseable lategame would be perfectly balanced as long as a Terran 11 / 11 rax has a 50% win rate at the highest level. Tic-tac-toe is pretty balanced too, is it fun to watch?
Everything else but LoL having more players than SC2 would be a huge surprise because a) it's free and b) it's easier and thus more attractive to casual gamers than SC2. I don't understand why people always have to draw those comparisons. I don't care how many people are plaing LoL. As long as SC2 is a good game it will not die. Nuff said.
Oh yeah because it was the quintessential protoss workhorse unit before the Oracle and Tempest came along. Oh how we'll remember all those games where the void ray was critical to success. From 2010.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well.
Everyone knows that, that has been standard Blizzard response since ever. And that kind of reasoning is retarded.
According to that reasoning, Zergs having a 100% unloseable lategame would be perfectly balanced as long as a Terran 11 / 11 rax has a 50% win rate at the highest level. Tic-tac-toe is pretty balanced too, is it fun to watch?
Stop being negative!
Exactly :D.
Now more on point. I think why they haven't actually adressed this issue in Wings of Liberty is because they realized that it's a game design issue and can't simply be fixed with a patch. If you nerf the Infestor you cripple zerg, and other things have to be changed etc. I think that's why they're just focussing on HoTS instead and hoping to fix it there.
On November 07 2012 01:52 BAAEEMM wrote: Everything else but LoL having more players than SC2 would be a huge surprise because a) it's free and b) it's easier and thus more attractive to casual gamers than SC2. I don't understand why people always have to draw those comparisons. I don't care how many people are plaing LoL. As long as SC2 is a good game it will not die. Nuff said.
People always say that but look at Korea where they log playtime at internet cafes where you pay by the hour, and LoL still is the most played game over there. It goes far deeper than just LoL being F2P. LoL is simply a much better game for casuals. SC1 was also far more attractive for casuals than SC2, so it isn't necessarily a genre thing either.
Speechless. How can they still be in denial that there is a not a problem with brood/infestor?
Both Terran and Protoss have nothing solid against broodlord/infestor in the lategame, and brood/infestor is literally the best option Zerg has right now which is bad too.
If it's Zerg VS Protoss/Terran, and the Zerg knows how to abuse massing literally 20+ infestors, broodlords, and spine crawlers, if both players are the same skill, or even in some cases the Zerg lower skill level, the Zerg wins a majority of the time from the most ridiculous positions.
The stats do not mean shit if you do not put them into context. You can say a match-up is perfectly even 50/50 balance but if one race has to all-in to make that stat card something is wrong. Look at PvZ right now, 2 base sentry/immortal or die to brood/infestor turtle. TvZ is not any better, with Terran having the raven in such shabby shape compared to brood/infestor.
People really need to speak up now man, otherwise this truly just will be Zergcraft2. Every RTS that has died while brood war lived on died for one of two reasons:
a) the company stopped supporting the game due to forcing development teams onto other projects, or just did not want to spend money into supporting their game
b) the design team of that company stopped actively balancing the game, and when obvious and game breaking balance problems came up, they were left alone for months at a time while people slowly left the game.
It's obvious blizzard is not going to stop supporting the games, and they are working hard and have passion...so that leaves option b...balance the damn game!
When a strategy is so good, too good, to the point that it is the single best thing to do...it needs to be nerfed. I think myself and other people do not understand blizzard when they knee jerk nerf ghosts because they "did not want them massed" but later when infestors are showing they can do even more than ghosts ever could TvZ they leave them alone for months at a time.
So speak up now people! Unless you truly enjoy the current spectacle. Because guess what? All that drama about the "game dying" etc etc, at it's core has nothing to do with dick picks, talk shows, or casuals. It has to do with the gameplay.
I've been telling people the last few weeks: Spectators are not stupid. People are going to start to catch on that "oh, so every game this happens? Same thing? Infestor broodlord? Every match-up?" When it comes down to it, if the gameplay is suffering from a balance issue spectators WILL take notice. And they WILL leave if it becomes too obvious there's a problem.
On November 07 2012 01:52 BAAEEMM wrote: Everything else but LoL having more players than SC2 would be a huge surprise because a) it's free and b) it's easier and thus more attractive to casual gamers than SC2. I don't understand why people always have to draw those comparisons. I don't care how many people are plaing LoL. As long as SC2 is a good game it will not die. Nuff said.
People always say that but look at Korea where they log playtime at internet cafes where you pay by the hour, and LoL still is the most played game over there. It goes far deeper than just LoL being F2P. LoL is simply a much better game for casuals. SC1 was also far more attractive for casuals than SC2, so it isn't necessarily a genre thing either.
.... you mean customs right? i think joining ICCUP was the most daunting thing i ever undertook when it comes to gaming..
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well.
Everyone knows that, that has been standard Blizzard response since ever. And that kind of reasoning is retarded.
According to that reasoning, Zergs having a 100% unloseable lategame would be perfectly balanced as long as a Terran 11 / 11 rax has a 50% win rate at the highest level. Tic-tac-toe is pretty balanced too, is it fun to watch?
Stop being negative!
Exactly :D.
Now more on point. I think why they haven't actually adressed this issue in Wings of Liberty is because they realized that it's a game design issue and can't simply be fixed with a patch. If you nerf the Infestor you cripple zerg, and other things have to be changed etc. I think that's why they're just focussing on HoTS instead and hoping to fix it there.
Problem is, HoTS still seems a ways off. And I don't think it is a game design issue and can't be fixed. You could argue that Terran early game allin/aggression vs Z was too strong (pre patch) and that was a game design issue. They manage to 'fixed' that with a patch. Although I do think that 'fix' has indirectly lead to some issues we are seeing now.
I don't think they have enough time to rework fungal to a total different spell, but at least they can tweak some numbers like mana cost, radius, damage, etc to see it if helps. I mean all they did with the Queen was give it 2 range on its ground attack and look at the meta game shift.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well.
Everyone knows that, that has been standard Blizzard response since ever. And that kind of reasoning is retarded.
According to that reasoning, Zergs having a 100% unloseable lategame would be perfectly balanced as long as a Terran 11 / 11 rax has a 50% win rate at the highest level. Tic-tac-toe is pretty balanced too, is it fun to watch?
I wonder how they include tournament data? Do they have a guy that incorporates tournament wins into their system? By which criterion do they select these tournaments? Do they use TLPD?
The easiest way for them is probably to just use ladder data (and occasionally take a glance at GSL/MLG winrates). And that seems to be a pretty bad way to look at it. And I'm not exactly a statistics expert, but I think there is a problem trying to expose balance flaws with this approach, when the matchmaking aims to generate even matches regardless of race.
I think that is what many pros are trying to say. You shouldn't argue balance with empirical data (that only include results), but need to argue constructively in terms of the game elements and how they relate to each other.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
The on sc2 players switching are players who haven't had results in a year or never. I do agree that they still need to change some stuff would be extremely nice.
On November 07 2012 01:32 Cheekio wrote: That translation hints at possible Swarm Host buffs, which seems completely out of left field. I absolutely love having an option to control the pace of the game as zerg, but I can't imagine where they're getting their data from if fungal growth isn't on the chopping block and the issues with vipers aren't being looked at.
Fungal growth has been getting a ton of flak at all levels of play, and blinding cloud in vT and vP is programmed to be ineffective vs anything that's not a tank or a structure. Units have melee range under the cloud, so the pathing AI simply tells them to walk to attack distance- which is out from under the cloud. You end up auto-splitting an enemy's marines for him.
Doesnt it seem like 70% of there buffs or nerfs are out of left field? I think the most common post after any patch is
"was that even an issue?"
I respectfully disagree. Within the past few months, Blizzard has done an excellent job of listening to the pro and ladder community, and when the oracle was being redesigned, you could see Browder and Kim reading and posting the the battle.net forums for hour a day (usually weekday afternoons between about 2 and 6). They've been quiet for about 3 days and that's abnormal compared to the level of community involvement they've been showing lately.
A lot of left-field patches were seen in the WoL beta, and sometimes in the WoL retail, but by early beta HotS was marked by significant community involvement. If you look at the game design that was mentioned in HotS alpha interviews, you can see they needed the live feedback and have done significantly better with their game design because of it.
So they saw Thorzain abuse thors in tvp and nerfed it immediately...saw warp in ht to be op...saw mass ghosts owning up late game tvz...but when it comes to zerg they need more time? How much time do they need to realize how stupid bl/infestor is getting....this has been going on for at least 2 months
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
The on sc2 players switching are players who haven't had results in a year or never. I do agree that they still need to change some stuff would be extremely nice.
I think he is talking about the viewers and not the players. Players are much much more invested in a game and don't change just because another game gets popular. Viewers, however, are not as invested. If the gameplay of a game becomes 'stale', you will start to lose viewers. And as the viewership goes, so do the sponsors which is the financial backbone. Why do you think WC3 is still viable in China but not the rest of the world? It is because some Chinese players got to be the best players in the world and got a huge following in China. Therefore, sponsors are willing to sponsor tournaments and thus a viable pro scene.
We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
YESSSS!!! Go Nony! If they actually implemented changes based on that, I would be estatic
On November 07 2012 02:01 avilo wrote: Speechless. How can they still be in denial that there is a not a problem with brood/infestor?
Both Terran and Protoss have nothing solid against broodlord/infestor in the lategame, and brood/infestor is literally the best option Zerg has right now which is bad too.
If it's Zerg VS Protoss/Terran, and the Zerg knows how to abuse massing literally 20+ infestors, broodlords, and spine crawlers, if both players are the same skill, or even in some cases the Zerg lower skill level, the Zerg wins a majority of the time from the most ridiculous positions.
The stats do not mean shit if you do not put them into context. You can say a match-up is perfectly even 50/50 balance but if one race has to all-in to make that stat card something is wrong. Look at PvZ right now, 2 base sentry/immortal or die to brood/infestor turtle. TvZ is not any better, with Terran having the raven in such shabby shape compared to brood/infestor.
People really need to speak up now man, otherwise this truly just will be Zergcraft2. Every RTS that has died while brood war lived on died for one of two reasons:
a) the company stopped supporting the game due to forcing development teams onto other projects, or just did not want to spend money into supporting their game
b) the design team of that company stopped actively balancing the game, and when obvious and game breaking balance problems came up, they were left alone for months at a time while people slowly left the game.
It's obvious blizzard is not going to stop supporting the games, and they are working hard and have passion...so that leaves option b...balance the damn game!
When a strategy is so good, too good, to the point that it is the single best thing to do...it needs to be nerfed. I think myself and other people do not understand blizzard when they knee jerk nerf ghosts because they "did not want them massed" but later when infestors are showing they can do even more than ghosts ever could TvZ they leave them alone for months at a time.
So speak up now people! Unless you truly enjoy the current spectacle. Because guess what? All that drama about the "game dying" etc etc, at it's core has nothing to do with dick picks, talk shows, or casuals. It has to do with the gameplay.
I've been telling people the last few weeks: Spectators are not stupid. People are going to start to catch on that "oh, so every game this happens? Same thing? Infestor broodlord? Every match-up?" When it comes down to it, if the gameplay is suffering from a balance issue spectators WILL take notice. And they WILL leave if it becomes too obvious there's a problem.
Agree, I´m only a spectator, used to play some as zerg. But right now it´s getting really boring to watch, Tired of seeing unit comps of mass infestor + BL. And other things. You barely need commentators anymore, "Well the zerg is opening with hatch first and will transition into lair, infestation pit, spire, hive and broodlord. Let´s sit back and enjoy"
On November 07 2012 02:14 .kv wrote: So they saw Thorzain abuse thors in tvp and nerfed it immediately...saw warp in ht to be op...saw mass ghosts owning up late game tvz...but when it comes to zerg they need more time? How much time do they need to realize how stupid bl/infestor is getting....this has been going on for at least 2 months
6+ months* but who's counting. But yes, the inconsistency has been quite blatant.
Agree with Avilo for most part. 1. Yeah, win rates can be 50/50, but if one race is keeping it even by all-inning or hitting timing almost every time, it's not really a wholesome 50/50 is it? 2. Spectators aren't stupid, and simplicity isn't a formula for a good game; it never has been. You can't easily attract casuals to an in-depth strategy game so why are they trying to? LoL has a lot more going on in my opinion than SC2 in a single game since there are a lot more players in different locations on the map. All of the effects and abilities in LoL, and the extremely high numbers of characters to choose from would seem at first look to be more confusing than the same 12 units for each race duking it out in SC2.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
Jesus Christ, David Kim is blowing off all legitimate criticisms of Zerg late-game like they're nothing. Way to not give a flying fuck. He better have some damn good ideas of how to buff everything else if Blizzard isn't going to touch fungal.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
Are you implying that 100 pro terrans have quit?
not pro, just terran, he's probably right
Why would you state only "a hundred" terrans have quit when there are hundreds quitting -- not just Terrans, of all races. It's only reasonable to assume he meant professional Terrans, as citing random numbers of terrans quitting offers no credence to the SC2 dying due to Blizzard's lack of intervention argument. People quit all the time for many reasons and it's inevitable.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
We sure keep getting atrociously owned in international competition but we definitely save the day when it comes to endless whining and dead horse beating ^^
BL infest is too strong late game + Blizz do not say they are going to swing the nerfbat tomorrow = SC2 foreign community collapses in tears.
On November 07 2012 02:01 avilo wrote: Both Terran and Protoss have nothing solid against broodlord/infestor in the lategame, and brood/infestor is literally the best option Zerg has right now which is bad too.
The addition of Tempests into a Protoss' late-game composition works pretty well against Broodlord/Infestor, in my experience.
On November 07 2012 02:30 Satiinifi wrote: If we count all terrans that have quit the number would probly be 50% of all the terrans that ever played
So you just made up 100 pro terrans quitting, great. Feel free to prove the other number you made up too -- and that they're all due to the reasons you cited.
hmm seem like I have read different interview from ost people here. From what I read DK acknowledged the problem about BL/Infestor. He even admited that there's design flaw but he just stated that Zeg's dominance is not an issue which is true... Don't know what everyone is talking about here...
I dont see a bright future for sc2 since they just dont seem to realise that zerg massing infestors in every single matchup is not good for the game. Its extremly one dimentional and is starting to get boring. If hots will not change this i will be very dissapointed.
That interview is good news. I'm a bit afraid by the talk about not changing the Infestors ( even with better counter, the unit is still very poisonous to enjoyement overall ) but everthign else seems cool !
I really want to see what they can do redesigning the Raven. If SK Terran was viable in TvZ, that would make so happy.
On November 07 2012 00:39 benthekid wrote: Typical recycled answers of Race distribution are fine and winrate is fine. Such garbage...I'm pretty sure they don't even play or watch the game anymore.
My thoughts exactly, and he isn't sure Broodlord/Infestor is a problem?
The matchups may be balanced, but Infestors make the game boring.
On November 07 2012 00:39 benthekid wrote: Typical recycled answers of Race distribution are fine and winrate is fine. Such garbage...I'm pretty sure they don't even play or watch the game anymore.
My thoughts exactly, and he isn't sure Broodlord/Infestor is a problem?
The matchups may be balanced, but Infestors make the game boring.
I believe he stated he thinks there is a flaw in the design
On November 07 2012 02:30 Satiinifi wrote: If we count all terrans that have quit the number would probly be 50% of all the terrans that ever played
So you just made up 100 pro terrans quitting, great. Feel free to prove the other number you made up too -- and that they're all due to the reasons you cited.
Why would Satiini waste his effort to prove something that's painfully obvious to all? Because you're in denial or just being a little dick? Go do a search on TL, TONS of Terrans have retired, switched games or races. Pro gamers get no respect around these forums..
And yea, seems like Blizz is staying consistent in their blindness to the current state of the game.
On November 07 2012 02:30 Satiinifi wrote: If we count all terrans that have quit the number would probly be 50% of all the terrans that ever played
So you just made up 100 pro terrans quitting, great. Feel free to prove the other number you made up too -- and that they're all due to the reasons you cited.
Why would Satiini waste his effort to prove something that's painfully obvious to all? Because you're in denial or just being a little dick? Go do a search on TL, TONS of Terrans have retired, switched games or races. Pro gamers get no respect around these forums..
And yea, seems like Blizz is staying consistent in their blindness to the current state of the game.
It's obvious that 100 pro Terrans quitted? Doesn't seem so obvious to me. I understand that Terran is doing awful, but @rt just asked for evidence of a statement which seems fair in any discussion.
Hyperbole is not helpful at all. It makes the community look like melodramatic queens.
And yea, seems like Blizz is staying consistent in their blindness to the current state of the game.
Disagree... they are converging on the mainstay issues over time...
People must think hundreds of people are sitting around all day twiddling their thumbs... now, while they are probably at the water cooler a lot, they are doing a decent job
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
I don't think ClouD is talking about professional players. He's talking about the average gamer who makes up a large part of the Esports viewing demographic. Look at the latest stream numbers thread from TL. Almost every big name streamer is down 500-1000 viewers. A cursory glance at the numbers tells you that overall viewership is in a steep decline. Go to twitchTV and LoL will have anywhere from double to triple the viewership of SC on average.
If you think LoL is going to die out anytime before SC2 does, then you're straight delusional.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
I don't think ClouD is talking about professional players. He's talking about the average gamer who makes up a large part of the Esports viewing demographic. Look at the latest stream numbers thread from TL. Almost every big name streamer is down 500-1000 viewers. A cursory glance at the numbers tells you that overall viewership is in a steep decline. Go to twitchTV and LoL will have anywhere from double to triple the viewership of SC on average.
If you think LoL is going to die out anytime before SC2 does, then you're straight delusional.
If we are talking about player base compared to stream viewers then we need some stats on players online...
I mean, it could be that people stopped watching cause they know what the best strategies are now... they would rather go play out the known builds and watch only the top level gamers (GSL/OSL/etc.)... That's pretty much my case now... But yeah at first I would watch a lot of streams to see what these good players are doing and facing differently...
On November 07 2012 01:02 wwowz wrote: Translation + Show Spoiler +
Lot's of new patches were released recently in HOTS. What were the rationales behind them?
First of all, we added clan system to allow players to interact with each other. We are also preparing for the up coming "group" system. To explain more about this, players will be able to create a group based on certain topic for e.g. Protoss players may want to join group "protoss" to interact with other players, or a fan of SKT1 Rain may want to join the group "Rain FAN!". Also this patch vastly updated versus A.I. mode by adding about 10 levels of difficulties.
Also we noticed that the ladder system in WoL was very hardcore. This might have stressed out many casual players. Therefore, we decided to add non-ranked ladder system where it involves the same ladder search mechanism as the ranked counterpart but the points and rankings will not be affected. Finally, until now we were rewarding the players who are successful in getting lots of wins. However, this is changed as we incorporated levelling system to allow casual players to easily access the rewards as well.
HOTS implanted several updates on UI, especially auto-mining/split and selecting idle army.
These UI updates are designed for beginners. When we were adding these features to the game, we were cautious to not allow the gaming at pro-level to be easier while allowing beginners to easily approach the game. Honestly, I highly doubt features like selecting idle army units will be used in pro-level gaming.
Recently Zerg has been dominating in WoL. Protoss players especially are complaining about it. Are you aware of this?
Yes, we are receiving tons of feedbacks regarding this. However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments. If we look at the race distribution, I don't think it's not that bad. However, I believe that there is flaw in the game design. For e.g. it is very hard to face late game zerg composition without mothership's vortex. Therefore in HOTS, we are trying to provide solutions by adding units like Tempest. We are aware of Zerg's dominance but we are waiting for more results to show up.
Many Protoss players have been complaining that it is impossible to deal with BL-Infestor combo. Some pro-players are suggesting that it is impossible to beat late game PvZ.
Yes we are aware that such issues are present. However in Starleague, Protoss players dominated against zerg players and considering other tournaments, PvZ is not completely one sided. There is a problem with the match up but we believe that it can be fixed through various patches. As for now, we should take time to decide wether this is a serious problem or not. If we believe that it is not an issue, balance updates will be focused on HOTS.
HOTS introduced many new units. What are Blizzard's favorite units and why?
Recently we have been getting lots of feedbacks on widow mines being op. However we believe that although it is strong unit, immediate nerf isn't necessary. We are trying to make Oracle, Widow Mines and Swarm host stronger and more viable units. (apparently David Kim chose Swarm Host as hist favorite unit)
In HOTS, we want new strategies to revolve around new units. Although HOTS isn't balanced fully, we are experimenting with many things.
Warhound is removed from HOTS. We heard that there will be completely new unit being added.
We were going to add new units for Terran but currently we believe that reapers, hellbets and widow mines are sufficient in HOTS. Adding back warhound, or adding a new unit is not yet being considered.
Reapers are rarely used in WoL. Do you think this issue has been resolved in HOTS?
We are seeing great improvement in the beta. Reapers will be much more viable in TvT or TvZ early game. If we believe the units are still being underused, we are willing to make it stronger. We are trying to make them more viable units for harassment.
Recently, some communities are speculating rework on Terran's Raven. Any thoughts on this for HOTS?
We are almost done designing the new units. Now we are considering to completely re-design several units such as Void-ray and Raven.
Swarm Hosts in HOTS seems to change the metagame by a lot. We want know if Blizzard is satisfied with its design.
Yes, Swarm Host is one of the most satisfying new unit of HOTS. There is so much potential in this unit interms of multi tasking, long ranged siege moves, and even drop plays. Other units are more exposed during drop plays but Swarm Hots can avoid them very easily. Also Swarm Host is very "zerg" like unit. In terms of concepts and gameplay, we are very much satisfied with Swarm Host.
Infestors are one of the major units why zerg is considered to be "OP". Will there be any changes in HOTS?
We are hoping to avoid directly nerfing Infestors. The reason being is that it is the core unit of late game zerg composition. We should be careful not to nerf infesotrs. However, we are willing to make other units to counter Infestors better. For instance, Protoss has Temepst to deal with BL-Infestors much more efficiently. As such, there will not be any direct nerfs on infestor.
Recently Carriers have been added to the game once again. In WoL, Carriers are being suggested as the answer to late game zerg but it is highly inefficient. Is this still the case in HOTS?
There is no doubt that Carriers need to be buffed. We are still afraid that carriers being used as "a-move" units in pro level play. Therefore we are only considering to add minor buffs to it. We are thinking of making interceptors immune to Infestor's fungal growth.
However, we are focusing on the general metagame trend of the game so I believe it is too early for us decide how they will be changed. We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
Most of the new units introduced for Protoss in HOTS are flying units. What are your thoughts on this?
Protoss players have been focusing on Robotics Facility or Templar Archive Tech as the metagame. The use of Stargate is very rarely seen. This is why we are adding more flying units.
Oracle received several new abilities through a recent update. What are your thoughts?
In the past, Oracle was so much viable in all skills levels. Therefore we decided to change this by adding new abilities that depend more on skills of a player. Although we are still at its infant stage, they seem to be more efficient than the previous design. We believe that they are approaching the final design.
We are ware that release date of HOTS is not decided yet. Considering this, will there be any more balance updates for WoL?
If we believe that update is necessary, we are definitely going to implant it. Although it may seem like an update is needed, we are not planning to do so right away. If it's needed, we will work on it as fast as we can.
HOTS implanted several features to protect the privacy of the players. However this is limited to the custom games. Were there any feedbacks from pro gamers?
Currently there are lots of barcode in Korean Ladder. We are trying to add more features so that players don't have to use barcode. We are constantly discussing how we should takle this problem.
HOTS implanted several changes in custom games. However, it is still not the same as BW or Warcraft3 where players were able to make their own titles.
Although you can't change the name of the game created, we are implanting many other things in HOTS. We are trying to make rarely played games to be more exposed to the players. Therefore we are still not considering to add such feature.
Resuming from replay feature has been announced.
We are still developing it. We think e-sports will benefit massively from this feature. Just by having the replay file should allow players to resume the game. No other requirements will be necessary.
Any information regarding the Beta period?
We are satisfied with the game design. We are planning to monitor the game for the next 2-3 weeks. After that we are going to add more balance changes. We will release the game when it is fully balanced.
How is the single player in HOTS?
Cinematic is amazing (lol). It will mainly focus on the revenge of Kerrigan. More info will be released soon.
Which Korean player is giving the most feedback?
Not so much from the players. However, GOM TV Caster Engine is helping us a lot. He is playing random at high level. His experience as caster is also helpful. That is why we also ask him for more feedback.Players rarely give feedbacks and when they do, they only focus on one specific matchup.
Any players in particular you are interested in?
I love SKT1 Rain, LG-IM MVP, AcerScarlett and EG Stephano. I hope Stephano wins the WCS.
Recent Code S winner Startale Life has been setting new paradigm in Zerg's play style. What are your thoughts on this?
Life is very interesting and unique player. We love players who are innovative and play differently. We are still amazed how new strategies are being created at this point in time.
Any words to the fans who will experience HOTS in G-star 2012?
Since the game is still at its developing phase, it will not be able to deliver the best game experience. However, we are hoping that people would appreciate the potential in the game. Please leave feedbacks on the forum after experiencing HOTS. Personally, I hope MVP, DRG and Rain to succeed in G-star 2012 (lol)
DONE! I had to rush this translation as I have so much work to do but I enjoyed the interview in general. Please let me know if you guys have any problem with the translations. Thanks!
Is there any possibility of you translating the 2nd interview?
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
I don't think ClouD is talking about professional players. He's talking about the average gamer who makes up a large part of the Esports viewing demographic. Look at the latest stream numbers thread from TL. Almost every big name streamer is down 500-1000 viewers. A cursory glance at the numbers tells you that overall viewership is in a steep decline. Go to twitchTV and LoL will have anywhere from double to triple the viewership of SC on average.
If you think LoL is going to die out anytime before SC2 does, then you're straight delusional.
If we are talking about player base compared to stream viewers then we need some stats on players online...
I mean, it could be that people stopped watching cause they know what the best strategies are now... they would rather go play out the known builds and watch only the top level gamers (GSL/OSL/etc.)... That's pretty much my case now... But yeah at first I would watch a lot of streams to see what these good players are doing and facing differently...
Both are in decline, there's been numerous posts about it in the past month. Use the search function.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
time to make a youtube video with all the changes that you think need to happen
On November 07 2012 01:02 wwowz wrote: Translation + Show Spoiler +
Lot's of new patches were released recently in HOTS. What were the rationales behind them?
First of all, we added clan system to allow players to interact with each other. We are also preparing for the up coming "group" system. To explain more about this, players will be able to create a group based on certain topic for e.g. Protoss players may want to join group "protoss" to interact with other players, or a fan of SKT1 Rain may want to join the group "Rain FAN!". Also this patch vastly updated versus A.I. mode by adding about 10 levels of difficulties.
Also we noticed that the ladder system in WoL was very hardcore. This might have stressed out many casual players. Therefore, we decided to add non-ranked ladder system where it involves the same ladder search mechanism as the ranked counterpart but the points and rankings will not be affected. Finally, until now we were rewarding the players who are successful in getting lots of wins. However, this is changed as we incorporated levelling system to allow casual players to easily access the rewards as well.
HOTS implanted several updates on UI, especially auto-mining/split and selecting idle army.
These UI updates are designed for beginners. When we were adding these features to the game, we were cautious to not allow the gaming at pro-level to be easier while allowing beginners to easily approach the game. Honestly, I highly doubt features like selecting idle army units will be used in pro-level gaming.
Recently Zerg has been dominating in WoL. Protoss players especially are complaining about it. Are you aware of this?
Yes, we are receiving tons of feedbacks regarding this. However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments. If we look at the race distribution, I don't think it's not that bad. However, I believe that there is flaw in the game design. For e.g. it is very hard to face late game zerg composition without mothership's vortex. Therefore in HOTS, we are trying to provide solutions by adding units like Tempest. We are aware of Zerg's dominance but we are waiting for more results to show up.
Many Protoss players have been complaining that it is impossible to deal with BL-Infestor combo. Some pro-players are suggesting that it is impossible to beat late game PvZ.
Yes we are aware that such issues are present. However in Starleague, Protoss players dominated against zerg players and considering other tournaments, PvZ is not completely one sided. There is a problem with the match up but we believe that it can be fixed through various patches. As for now, we should take time to decide wether this is a serious problem or not. If we believe that it is not an issue, balance updates will be focused on HOTS.
HOTS introduced many new units. What are Blizzard's favorite units and why?
Recently we have been getting lots of feedbacks on widow mines being op. However we believe that although it is strong unit, immediate nerf isn't necessary. We are trying to make Oracle, Widow Mines and Swarm host stronger and more viable units. (apparently David Kim chose Swarm Host as hist favorite unit)
In HOTS, we want new strategies to revolve around new units. Although HOTS isn't balanced fully, we are experimenting with many things.
Warhound is removed from HOTS. We heard that there will be completely new unit being added.
We were going to add new units for Terran but currently we believe that reapers, hellbets and widow mines are sufficient in HOTS. Adding back warhound, or adding a new unit is not yet being considered.
Reapers are rarely used in WoL. Do you think this issue has been resolved in HOTS?
We are seeing great improvement in the beta. Reapers will be much more viable in TvT or TvZ early game. If we believe the units are still being underused, we are willing to make it stronger. We are trying to make them more viable units for harassment.
Recently, some communities are speculating rework on Terran's Raven. Any thoughts on this for HOTS?
We are almost done designing the new units. Now we are considering to completely re-design several units such as Void-ray and Raven.
Swarm Hosts in HOTS seems to change the metagame by a lot. We want know if Blizzard is satisfied with its design.
Yes, Swarm Host is one of the most satisfying new unit of HOTS. There is so much potential in this unit interms of multi tasking, long ranged siege moves, and even drop plays. Other units are more exposed during drop plays but Swarm Hots can avoid them very easily. Also Swarm Host is very "zerg" like unit. In terms of concepts and gameplay, we are very much satisfied with Swarm Host.
Infestors are one of the major units why zerg is considered to be "OP". Will there be any changes in HOTS?
We are hoping to avoid directly nerfing Infestors. The reason being is that it is the core unit of late game zerg composition. We should be careful not to nerf infesotrs. However, we are willing to make other units to counter Infestors better. For instance, Protoss has Temepst to deal with BL-Infestors much more efficiently. As such, there will not be any direct nerfs on infestor.
Recently Carriers have been added to the game once again. In WoL, Carriers are being suggested as the answer to late game zerg but it is highly inefficient. Is this still the case in HOTS?
There is no doubt that Carriers need to be buffed. We are still afraid that carriers being used as "a-move" units in pro level play. Therefore we are only considering to add minor buffs to it. We are thinking of making interceptors immune to Infestor's fungal growth.
However, we are focusing on the general metagame trend of the game so I believe it is too early for us decide how they will be changed. We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
Most of the new units introduced for Protoss in HOTS are flying units. What are your thoughts on this?
Protoss players have been focusing on Robotics Facility or Templar Archive Tech as the metagame. The use of Stargate is very rarely seen. This is why we are adding more flying units.
Oracle received several new abilities through a recent update. What are your thoughts?
In the past, Oracle was so much viable in all skills levels. Therefore we decided to change this by adding new abilities that depend more on skills of a player. Although we are still at its infant stage, they seem to be more efficient than the previous design. We believe that they are approaching the final design.
We are ware that release date of HOTS is not decided yet. Considering this, will there be any more balance updates for WoL?
If we believe that update is necessary, we are definitely going to implant it. Although it may seem like an update is needed, we are not planning to do so right away. If it's needed, we will work on it as fast as we can.
HOTS implanted several features to protect the privacy of the players. However this is limited to the custom games. Were there any feedbacks from pro gamers?
Currently there are lots of barcode in Korean Ladder. We are trying to add more features so that players don't have to use barcode. We are constantly discussing how we should takle this problem.
HOTS implanted several changes in custom games. However, it is still not the same as BW or Warcraft3 where players were able to make their own titles.
Although you can't change the name of the game created, we are implanting many other things in HOTS. We are trying to make rarely played games to be more exposed to the players. Therefore we are still not considering to add such feature.
Resuming from replay feature has been announced.
We are still developing it. We think e-sports will benefit massively from this feature. Just by having the replay file should allow players to resume the game. No other requirements will be necessary.
Any information regarding the Beta period?
We are satisfied with the game design. We are planning to monitor the game for the next 2-3 weeks. After that we are going to add more balance changes. We will release the game when it is fully balanced.
How is the single player in HOTS?
Cinematic is amazing (lol). It will mainly focus on the revenge of Kerrigan. More info will be released soon.
Which Korean player is giving the most feedback?
Not so much from the players. However, GOM TV Caster Engine is helping us a lot. He is playing random at high level. His experience as caster is also helpful. That is why we also ask him for more feedback.Players rarely give feedbacks and when they do, they only focus on one specific matchup.
Any players in particular you are interested in?
I love SKT1 Rain, LG-IM MVP, AcerScarlett and EG Stephano. I hope Stephano wins the WCS.
Recent Code S winner Startale Life has been setting new paradigm in Zerg's play style. What are your thoughts on this?
Life is very interesting and unique player. We love players who are innovative and play differently. We are still amazed how new strategies are being created at this point in time.
Any words to the fans who will experience HOTS in G-star 2012?
Since the game is still at its developing phase, it will not be able to deliver the best game experience. However, we are hoping that people would appreciate the potential in the game. Please leave feedbacks on the forum after experiencing HOTS. Personally, I hope MVP, DRG and Rain to succeed in G-star 2012 (lol)
DONE! I had to rush this translation as I have so much work to do but I enjoyed the interview in general. Please let me know if you guys have any problem with the translations. Thanks!
Is there any possibility of you translating the 2nd interview?
Both interviews are about the same content, just organized in different order. Core messages are exactly the same. *edit: actually DK gives different insights / details on some of these questions. Maybe worth translating the second one.
On November 07 2012 02:56 Tppz! wrote: Is it possible to get translation of the comments by the Koreans on this article?
Some comments by Korean Users:
- Swarm host is just... too disgusting....If they maintain this design, i'm pretty sure some people hate it to see them" - Wow.. Engine... - hmm I still think they should add new unit for terran to feel more like an "expansion pack". - There are controversies about the swarm host design but in terms of its abilities, they are very interesting indeed. - Yea, improve the privacy of the players! It's not interesting to see bunch of barcodes dominating the ladder rankings - Interview TL/DR : We are aware of the problems, but it's not enough to be patched. - wow... Engine is helping them a lot... - It is impossible to break BL, Infestor, Swarm host composition..
"well the game is fine and there are numerous reports that there are problems with the game but the data available from the last 7-8 months is not enough so we prefer to wait and see if everyone will chose to ignore the problems just as we're doing because everything is fine bla-bla-bla-bla -insert more standard DB bullshit-"
On November 07 2012 02:56 Tppz! wrote: Is it possible to get translation of the comments by the Koreans on this article?
Some comments by Korean Users:
- Swarm host is just... too disgusting....If they maintain this design, i'm pretty sure some people hate it to see them" - Wow.. Engine... - hmm I still think they should add new unit for terran to feel more like an "expansion pack". - There are controversies about the swarm host design but in terms of its abilities, they are very interesting indeed. - Yea, improve the privacy of the players! It's not interesting to see bunch of barcodes dominating the ladder rankings - Interview TL/DR : We are aware of the problems, but it's not enough to be patched. - wow... Engine is helping them a lot... - It is impossible to break BL, Infestor, Swarm host composition..
maybe they could have shadow leagues... where everything but race is hidden from rankings/matchup screens and in this shadow league your games recorded from this league just state your name as "Opponent"
obviously at the end of the season (or near the end), they would reveal the IDs
On November 07 2012 03:07 SKYFISH_ wrote: "well the game is fine and there are numerous reports that there are problems with the game but the data available from the last 7-8 months is not enough so we prefer to wait and see if everyone will chose to ignore the problems just as we're doing because everything is fine bla-bla-bla-bla -insert more standard DB bullshit-"
alrighy then
hey at least they didn't talk about more ROCKS -_-
On November 07 2012 02:56 Tppz! wrote: Is it possible to get translation of the comments by the Koreans on this article?
Some comments by Korean Users:
- Swarm host is just... too disgusting....If they maintain this design, i'm pretty sure some people hate it to see them" - Wow.. Engine... - hmm I still think they should add new unit for terran to feel more like an "expansion pack". - There are controversies about the swarm host design but in terms of its abilities, they are very interesting indeed. - Yea, improve the privacy of the players! It's not interesting to see bunch of barcodes dominating the ladder rankings - Interview TL/DR : We are aware of the problems, but it's not enough to be patched. - wow... Engine is helping them a lot... - It is impossible to break BL, Infestor, Swarm host composition..
swarm host to disgusting, this is quite funny hearing this. This is when you know the starcraft 2 art team nailed this one perfect, afterall zerg units are supposed to be extremely disgusting. Pat on the back artists :D
I've given hope that blizzard will make any significant change to the glaring gameplay issues that plague WOL. They love warpgate/fungal/forcefield too much.
Sounds really good. I have high hopes about hots, the addition of new units will lead to exponentially more viable options for all match-ups. Keep up the good work blizzard!
Love the interviews. I always find the development side of the game to be fascinating and DK always gives reasonable responses. Although I hate the infestor with the fire of a nova, I understand why they don’t want to nerf it directly. Every time they nerf a unit, people just stop using it. I would rather they buff something else to help people deal with the infestor, but time will tell. I know that the tempest is going to be shooting those thing way more than BL.
His insight into HotS is awesome, I am glad they are updating some of the useless units like the voidray. That unit has never been anything but a problem for protoss and the scaling damage has caused it to be nerfed into uselessness. The raven needs love and to be made viable. The more viable air units that are out there, the better off we are.
Also, DK comment on Korean Pro gamers is great. Most of their feed back is to ask for a specific match up to be made easier for them. Did we expect anything else?
Hm, with the 'resume from replay' function we could have awesome showmatches were two teams of players have to fight each other and at a specific point in the game they have to swap the players (leave the game and then resume the game from that place with different players). Looking forward to see stuff like that.
On another note, David Kim talking down the Broodlord-Infestor problem seems weird to me. That composition is as near to invincible as a composition ever could be. That's not how this game is supposed to be...
On November 07 2012 01:36 DJSub wrote: So top-level tournament racial spread and win ratios aren't too lop-sided? This guy is so incompetent.
MLG and GSL were zerg, but OSL was Protoss. So he isn't wrong, 2-1 isn't a bad ratio in a game with two races.
it's bad to look at it that way anyway. blizz is too results oriented.
same with units, "if they are underused, we are willing to buff them" that's a terrible approach. either you are convinced a unit is too weak or it isn't. how many people use them can only be a hint, not more.
in bw there were quite some niche units and spells, and it was good that way.
and it's not a consistent approach by them. if they think underused units need a buff, they also need to nerf overused units.
Dunno if he is right about the new difficulty levels in the versus AI mode. Only Very Easy is available for custom games, and the versus AI matchmaking is disabled. Maybe he is referring to an upcoming patch.
On November 07 2012 03:19 Plansix wrote: Love the interviews. I always find the development side of the game to be fascinating and DK always gives reasonable responses. Although I hate the infestor with the fire of a nova, I understand why they don’t want to nerf it directly. Every time they nerf a unit, people just stop using it. I would rather they buff something else to help people deal with the infestor, but time will tell. I know that the tempest is going to be shooting those thing way more than BL.
His insight into HotS is awesome, I am glad they are updating some of the useless units like the voidray. That unit has never been anything but a problem for protoss and the scaling damage has caused it to be nerfed into uselessness. The raven needs love and to be made viable. The more viable air units that are out there, the better off we are.
Also, DK comment on Korean Pro gamers is great. Most of their feed back is to ask for a specific match up to be made easier for them. Did we expect anything else?
What ??? Positive thinking on a balance/Blizz official itw thread ??? Burn the heretic !!!!
On November 07 2012 02:53 Fission wrote: infestor/broodlord is a problem because it makes the game boring to watch and to play. Come on DK.
how? i find it interesting to find ways to guerilla your way to victory even if the ball is out
Because a good Zerg will lol at your attempts of harassment, slap down 20 spines at each path to his half of the map, and then roll you. Look at some of happy and beastyqts tvz games in eg masters cup.
Even if we make a call that infestator/Brood Lord is balanced and doesnt need a change (with which I dont agree) there is still another factor : FUN . People that watch or play this game must have fun to make this game successful. This composition makes boring , stale games and I don't blame zerg players they do what it takes to win. Also stating that other options will indirectly nerf infestors means that vipers and zerg hosts MUST be as strong as infestors to make people use them.
On November 07 2012 03:19 Plansix wrote: Love the interviews. I always find the development side of the game to be fascinating and DK always gives reasonable responses. Although I hate the infestor with the fire of a nova, I understand why they don’t want to nerf it directly. Every time they nerf a unit, people just stop using it. I would rather they buff something else to help people deal with the infestor, but time will tell. I know that the tempest is going to be shooting those thing way more than BL.
His insight into HotS is awesome, I am glad they are updating some of the useless units like the voidray. That unit has never been anything but a problem for protoss and the scaling damage has caused it to be nerfed into uselessness. The raven needs love and to be made viable. The more viable air units that are out there, the better off we are.
Also, DK comment on Korean Pro gamers is great. Most of their feed back is to ask for a specific match up to be made easier for them. Did we expect anything else?
What ??? Positive thinking on a balance/Blizz official itw thread ??? Burn the heretic !!!!
I could go into arm-chair game development mode and write a 10,000 word blog about how to change Warpgate and use words like "defenders advantage" and "skill based gameplay", because god knows, we need another one of those.
On November 07 2012 03:27 Tomasy wrote: Even if we make a call that infestator/Brood Lord is balanced and doesnt need a change (with which I dont agree) there is still another factor : FUN . People that watch or play this game must have fun to make this game successful. This composition makes boring , stale games and I don't blame zerg players they do what it takes to win. Also stating that other options will indirectly nerf infestors means that vipers and zerg hosts MUST be as strong as infestors to make people use them.
Blizzard is not going to nerf infestor/Broodlord less than two weeks before the Blizzard World Cup. They are not even going to say its a problem. It would like the NFL saying that one of the teams likely had an unfair advantage all season right before the super bowl. This is what we get when Blizzard gets more involved, they use discretion with their statements when major events are coming up. Don't be surprised if balance patches come in the off season.
The way he says "Swarm Host allows multitasking" made me laugh a bit, how a unit that you just need to burrow then you're done can allow multitasking ? It's the opposite, you burrow them somewhere to put pressure on then you're free to focus on macro instead of doing both at the same time. I especially remember a replay of White-Ra against an Italian zerg when the Z just massed SW, put them in front of WR's 3rd and then just macro, while WR had to micro and macro a shitlot to not die to the free units that were mauling him :/
On November 07 2012 02:56 Tppz! wrote: Is it possible to get translation of the comments by the Koreans on this article?
Some comments by Korean Users:
- Swarm host is just... too disgusting....If they maintain this design, i'm pretty sure some people hate it to see them" - Wow.. Engine... - hmm I still think they should add new unit for terran to feel more like an "expansion pack". - There are controversies about the swarm host design but in terms of its abilities, they are very interesting indeed. - Yea, improve the privacy of the players! It's not interesting to see bunch of barcodes dominating the ladder rankings - Interview TL/DR : We are aware of the problems, but it's not enough to be patched. - wow... Engine is helping them a lot... - It is impossible to break BL, Infestor, Swarm host composition..
swarm host to disgusting, this is quite funny hearing this. This is when you know the starcraft 2 art team nailed this one perfect, afterall zerg units are supposed to be extremely disgusting. Pat on the back artists :D
Not really. I for one, don't want to feel disgusted when i look at the screen playing a game. That's actually bad design. Zerglings, hydras, overlords, are all zergy, and none are disgusting. But the back of the swarm host is indeed kind of disgusting to look at. This issue has been discussed before, and it is related with trypophobia. Too bad Blizzard couldn't care less about the community's issues.
On November 07 2012 02:56 Tppz! wrote: Is it possible to get translation of the comments by the Koreans on this article?
Some comments by Korean Users:
- Swarm host is just... too disgusting....If they maintain this design, i'm pretty sure some people hate it to see them" - Wow.. Engine... - hmm I still think they should add new unit for terran to feel more like an "expansion pack". - There are controversies about the swarm host design but in terms of its abilities, they are very interesting indeed. - Yea, improve the privacy of the players! It's not interesting to see bunch of barcodes dominating the ladder rankings - Interview TL/DR : We are aware of the problems, but it's not enough to be patched. - wow... Engine is helping them a lot... - It is impossible to break BL, Infestor, Swarm host composition..
swarm host to disgusting, this is quite funny hearing this. This is when you know the starcraft 2 art team nailed this one perfect, afterall zerg units are supposed to be extremely disgusting. Pat on the back artists :D
Zerglings are actually really cute. Both in original and SC2.
The problem with zerg late game is NOT the fact that BL/Infestor is almost impossible to beat, it's that it makes the game EXTREMELY boring. EXTREMELY.
The lack of mobility that that composition imposes on the other race is simply disgusting. There is no amazing "micro" possibilities against that composition. Protoss need 1 lucky vortex. And even then, is that fun to watch? No, not really. It only shows that the zerg was stupid and clumped his broodlords. Terran simply can't beat BL/Infestor anymore without getting extremely lucky (i.e. Flash vs. Life on Ohana). Vikings are simply terrible, there was a reason Ghosts were needed. Were ghosts fun to watch against broodlords? No, not really.
Anyway, to make my point clear, Broodlord/Infestor does not need to get "balanced" it needs to be REMOVED. The game design is terrible. I hear David Kim mentioning Tempests.... who cares? Does tempests beating on broodlords a screen length away excite anyone? Is it even going to allow good micro? The answer is: NO.
The reason BW PvZ was awesome because it allowed for such amazing back and forth fights. No composition was overly strong and it was a clash in every battle. everyone hates reminiscing about BW, but they really need to use the most successful RTS on the planet as an example of how to design their new one.
They are doing well in some things (it's cool they want to redesign VR and Carrier), but it's painful that he doesn't want to nerf the infestor AT ALL. I know the term "buff everything, nerf nothing!" is a common design theme that gets posted a bunch on reddit, but the insane power of fungal with both rooting and aoe damage is undeniable at this point. Everyone agrees comebacks through consistent, smart play should be possible, but having your units clumped ONCE and then having the Zerg decimate your army with f+click is silly. Punish players for being careless, but punish them once. 40 infestors in Leenock v Bomber?
On November 07 2012 03:36 Sakray wrote: The way he says "Swarm Host allows multitasking" made me laugh a bit, how a unit that you just need to burrow then you're done can allow multitasking ? It's the opposite, you burrow them somewhere to put pressure on then you're free to focus on macro instead of doing both at the same time. I especially remember a replay of White-Ra against an Italian zerg when the Z just massed SW, put them in front of WR's 3rd and then just macro, while WR had to micro and macro a shitlot to not die to the free units that were mauling him :/
Do you even have access to the beta? You have no idea what you're talking about. Swarm Hosts have ridiculous micro potential that few people have tapped into yet.
For example, the hosts can be uprooted after pushing out locusts, they can walk with the locusts to their new destination or retreat to safer grounds to spawn more. The locusts themselves can be manually micro'd like roaches.
Swarm Hosts also forces a position game much like siegetanks. Since locusts are slow and are sent into a single direction, the swarmhosts can be flanked from the side or the back during the cooldown time.
How can a game be balanced when a race gets free units in the late game? Zerg can spawn units in excess of 300 food for free but the other 2 races are limited to 200. This is a fatal design flaw. The fact that the best Zerg unit is a marine is the most stupid thing ever. Why they don't give Terran free mines in late game? Why only Zerg gets freebies? Also abilities that makes unit movement impossible should be removed. Terran needs some decent spells in the late game like the other 2 races. (AOE damage) PS: Remove the god dame nuke from the game. It's a joke.
On November 07 2012 02:47 mishimaBeef wrote: i think BL festor is more of a problem because of zerg having two strong anti air options and a backup anti air option.
Corruptor + Infested Terran = good anti air Offensive Queens for transfuse = also decent support anti air
Hence, broodlords crush the ground and zerg can react to the air threats....
Maybe if corruptor DID NOT morph into brood lord?
EDIT:
what i think would be cool: fast moving, mutated "scourge" with no attacks... they morph into either corruptor or brood lords
scale cost accordingly... (i.e. mutated scourge cost is low, corruptor morph medium, brood lord morph high)
That's a great solution which would fix the game and make it more exciting, problem is it's similar to BW zerg air units and blizzard is stubborn about going back.
Lol does David Kim seriously think that zvp is the only imbalanced matchup? Does the fact that he didn't mention zvt mean that he thinks that mu is fine? The whole race is fundamentally design flawed. Infestor/BL/corruptor is too strong regardless of the mu. If he doesn't see that then I think he should seriously consider changing jobs. Also, this "the w/l ratio is fine" garbage is getting really old. Most importantly, tournaments live their own life and there are too few of them to make them statistically significant. Start looking at GM race distribution disparities...
Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
On November 07 2012 04:00 Suzido wrote: Lol does David Kim seriously think that zvp is the only imbalanced matchup?
That's not a fair accusation. The interviewer only asked about ZvP.
This is true. However, that's also why I wrote "Does the fact that he didn't mention zvt mean that he thinks that mu is fine?" If he would've thought otherwise he could've cut the interviewer off after all those questions about pvz for instance, and said something along the lines of "It is indeed difficult to PvZ late game without the Mothership's vortex. ... It is also obviously very difficult for terran to deal with z lategame". With that long discussion about balance and the state of z, one would suspect he would also mention tvz if he thought that mu was imbalanced as well.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
Well, the truth would be nice. Patchzergs disgust me almost as much as BL/Infestor.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
not
"its fine, winrates solve all"
That is pretty much what DK said, but then backed it up with some recent tournament results. He said it might be a problem and it is something they are looking into. Blizzard has an a tournament in less than two weeks which is the world championship, they are not going to change anything or even say they are going to change anything until that is done.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
not
"its fine, winrates solve all"
more like "winrates are fine" (probably need more sample size from highest level (GSL/OSL) which will take a few months).. by waiting these months they can account for meta-game/unsolved strategic elements
i want to remind everybody that blizzard promised us units that will require a lot of micro but gave us two units that burrow and auto-do what they do - the widow mine and the swarm host...
and most probably we wont see a patch that fixes broken zerg.I've been watching so many ZvZ finals lately (life/leenock,nerchio/bly) and every gm server is flooded with patchzergs its kind of getting boring.
and yes,they should redesign void rays,because currently they are horrible.
AND YES,MR DAVID KIM,I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION:
theoretically if a toss player wins 100% of his 2 base all ins and the zerg player wins 100% of the games he spines up and makes BLFESTOR that makes 50 % overall ratio but is the game balanced that way?
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
not
"its fine, winrates solve all"
Lol @ this characterization of what DK said. He actually specifically said that they are keeping an eye on it but are waiting to see more results. You and others are not doing the discussion any good by being so dramatic. Read carefully what DK said and then you can give a worthwhile response.
On November 07 2012 03:19 Plansix wrote: Love the interviews. I always find the development side of the game to be fascinating and DK always gives reasonable responses. Although I hate the infestor with the fire of a nova, I understand why they don’t want to nerf it directly. Every time they nerf a unit, people just stop using it. I would rather they buff something else to help people deal with the infestor, but time will tell. I know that the tempest is going to be shooting those thing way more than BL.
His insight into HotS is awesome, I am glad they are updating some of the useless units like the voidray. That unit has never been anything but a problem for protoss and the scaling damage has caused it to be nerfed into uselessness. The raven needs love and to be made viable. The more viable air units that are out there, the better off we are.
Also, DK comment on Korean Pro gamers is great. Most of their feed back is to ask for a specific match up to be made easier for them. Did we expect anything else?
What ??? Positive thinking on a balance/Blizz official itw thread ??? Burn the heretic !!!!
Looks like I'll be joining Plansix at the stake. I'm reading through it now. It's insightful and interesting.
I'm glad to hear the Raven, VR, and Carrier are being considered for re-design.
But seriously Dayvie, the infestor needs to be reworked. It's good in all situations at all points of the game. Nerf it and give a buff to hydras or something. And even though the swarm host is your favorite unit, it doesn't need a buff
On November 07 2012 04:16 nucLeaRTV wrote: Dear David Kim, what about dumbing down MACRO with workers count per bases?
Already addressed in the interview under automining, they are adding features that will have minimal affect on pro-gamers, but will help people get started playing. It is a non-issue, as it only surfaces what we already knew, but a new player would need to look up online.
Jeez tt.. hots provides absolutely no interesting content for terran. Some people get cool spellcasters, some get interesting strategic powerhouses, terran gets the only BW unit we didn't ask for and a fucking landmine ._. I will buy for the campaign because I love the universe, but the multiplayer seems so meh. Why won't you fucking acknowledge the shit design of fungal growth or the immense boredom involved in playing against the clock.
Some of the same generic answers. I'm glad that they are considering redesigning some of the already existing units, and that they will probably get around to doing so, but I'm still worried with the state of the units in beta as is.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
not
"its fine, winrates solve all"
Lol @ this characterization of what DK said. He actually specifically said that they are keeping an eye on it but are waiting to see more results. You and others are not doing the discussion any good by being so dramatic. Read carefully what DK said and then you can give a worthwhile response.
ha...I was borderline trolling....good to see you saw right thru it lol.
The worst part of it is he wants more time to evaluate it? umm if it was terran or protoss this would of been nerfed like 4 months ago
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
I realize that I am biased since I played Terran, but if you look at the negative things in the interview two things stood out to me:
Firstly, they don't want to touch the infestor. Personally I think it is really boring to watch 20 infestors every game pwning more or less every unit in the game. When ghosts were nerfed I heard things like they didn't want them to be massed like they were and they should not counter everything from the zerg. I feel like right now the infestor is near the same situation, but he still doesn't want to touch the infestor.
Secondly, looking at all the goodies the other races are getting the Terran in HoTS feels extremely boring, and like someone mentioned earlier 40 euro for an expansion that basically gives me a mine? I think I'll pass. It isn't about how good it is or not it is about new and fun things and the HoTS Terran seems lacking atm.
Also, personally I would like to hear what he thinks about the state of Terran anywhere except for Korea.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Im a little concerned about GSL going 8/6/2 Zerg/Terran/Protoss ro16, it looks quite likely right now. With some of the comments from pro's and general community opinions on various balance issues i think there will probably be some kind of change to zerg before HOTS though.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
Bravo Dustin. Doesn't he realize that units countering each other so well is one of the reasons the game is so frikkin volatile and why battles culminating a 50minute long game can be decided within seconds (e.g. good vortex vs bad vortex)?
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
Your opinion matters even less than Clouds... Nobody said MLG was boring, but only that zerg lategame is. If you enjoy it, it's probably because you're retarded, hence the watching of LoL as well.
Insta nerf Thors insta nerf Ghosts but infestors are fine? What a joke.
And the hellbat and mines are seriously shit compared to everything toss and zerg are getting. The hellbat is useless against everything except for zealots, your better off using regular hellions against everything zerg and terran. The widow mine is decent but they are just not designed well. I'm not going to spend 20 supply rigging my base in widow mines against protoss because I want to play mech which is more immobile and worse in a straight up fight against toss. Why the hell would anyone want to mech against Toss right now?? The only unit that could make mech against toss viable is the warhound and they put it in the beta in a completely broken state and then as soon as people complained they just take it out.
On November 07 2012 04:05 Plansix wrote: Did people really think that David Kim was going to come out and say:
"We have reviewed Infestor/Broodlord and found it to be totally imbalanced and boring to watch. All the zerg wins in the last four months since the queen buff are pretty much invalid. We are going to be nerfing both the infestor and BL, likely 2 days before the Blizzard World Cup on Nov. 17, 2012. At that point, we will see if the patch-zergs can win without those clearly broken units"
Did people really expect that?
no but we where hoping for
" we are looking into lategame zerg infestor/BL compositions and appreciate all the feedback"
On November 07 2012 02:47 mishimaBeef wrote: i think BL festor is more of a problem because of zerg having two strong anti air options and a backup anti air option.
Corruptor + Infested Terran = good anti air Offensive Queens for transfuse = also decent support anti air
Hence, broodlords crush the ground and zerg can react to the air threats....
Maybe if corruptor DID NOT morph into brood lord?
EDIT:
what i think would be cool: fast moving, mutated "scourge" with no attacks... they morph into either corruptor or brood lords
scale cost accordingly... (i.e. mutated scourge cost is low, corruptor morph medium, brood lord morph high)
You mean like a Mutalisk? That actually, mutates?!
On November 07 2012 02:30 Satiinifi wrote: If we count all terrans that have quit the number would probly be 50% of all the terrans that ever played
So you just made up 100 pro terrans quitting, great. Feel free to prove the other number you made up too -- and that they're all due to the reasons you cited.
Why would Satiini waste his effort to prove something that's painfully obvious to all? Because you're in denial or just being a little dick? Go do a search on TL, TONS of Terrans have retired, switched games or races. Pro gamers get no respect around these forums..
And yea, seems like Blizz is staying consistent in their blindness to the current state of the game.
Painfully obvious? He's literally making up numbers and grossly exaggerating facts. I understand how passionate terrans are about this issue, but making up bullshit to incite an apocalyptic outlook on SC2's future only hurts your own cause. Rather than ignorantly taking anything anyone says for granted, why don't you approach this with the remotest amount of objectivity?
And feel free to list those 100 terran pros who have quit. You doom your argument's credibility trying to defend that statement.
On November 07 2012 04:56 VTPerfect wrote: last time i checked zerg won every single tournament except escw where the only good zerg there was stephano -.-...
Nah man, gotta give it time. Game still young. BW 10 years. Terrans just whine and never practice or change. Look they are still using marines. People used marines in Beta..
"However, we are focusing on the general metagame trend of the game so I believe it is too early for us decide how they will be changed. We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video."
I think the resume from replay thing might start a new trend: Prove Idra Wrong: continue from an Idra game with premature gg to turn the game around. Could be a new segment on IPL or NASL. Instead of or in addition to IPLFC we could have IPLPIW.
On November 07 2012 04:56 VTPerfect wrote: last time i checked zerg won every single tournament except escw where the only good zerg there was stephano -.-...
You mean apart from OSL, WCS Korea, WCS Asia, WCG Korea, TSL, GSL season 3 etc
Wonder who won those....
It's weird to see Protoss complain about tournament wins when they have claimed 5 of the last 6 major Korean Tournaments with 3 PvP finals, at least 2 P in the top 3 of each one and hold 50% of all the wins in the current GSTL, with 4 all-kills.
On November 07 2012 05:19 eleaf wrote: There is no doubt that Carriers need to be buffed. We are still afraid that carriers being used as "a-move" units in pro level play.
Am I the only dumb here? So BLs and colossus are "micro" units compared with carriers?
well carriers can't even be stutter stepped so I guess that's one explanation
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
Your opinion matters even less than Clouds... Nobody said MLG was boring, but only that zerg lategame is. If you enjoy it, it's probably because you're retarded, hence the watching of LoL as well.
Although I will always agree that my opinion is not very important, Cloud’s opinion equally as irrelevant. I have never heard him say anything positive or constructive that should be taken seriously. I have never seen him make a reasonable argument about anything and mostly whines about how badly he feels game is made, yet he continues to play.
As for LoL, we all my friends who enjoyed the game highly intelligent and gainfully employed at well paying jobs. They enjoy the game because it is free and everyone we know can join in. Some of them play SC2 as well, but we like to include everyone when we can. One of them is a highly ranked member of the Magic Pro tour, which requires it own skill set. None of them are of diminished intelligence in any way.
On November 07 2012 04:56 VTPerfect wrote: last time i checked zerg won every single tournament except escw where the only good zerg there was stephano -.-...
You mean apart from OSL, WCS Korea, WCS Asia, WCG Korea, TSL, GSL season 3 etc
Wonder who won those....
It's weird to see Protoss complain about tournament wins when they have claimed 5 of the last 6 major Korean Tournaments with 3 PvP finals, at least 2 P in the top 3 of each one and hold 50% of all the wins in the current GSTL, with 4 all-kills.
MLG(Fall championship) ZvZ finals Dreamhack(Bucharest) ZvZ finals Europe WCS ZvZ Finals GSL season 4 Zerg winner This season Code S completely and utterly dominated by Zergs (Only 2 Toss advanced so far) MLG(Summer championship) Zerg winner.
I'm not gonna say Zerg is OP but you seemed to have missed a lot of Zerg tournaments recently and only remember the Protoss ones....
Wowowowwow. The interview is fucking awful. Everything he says points to them being utterly clueless about the game.
There's a reason everyone is getting bored of the game. Their refusal to do shit about it is fucking mindblowing. Look at how many people have the HOTS beta and don't even give a damn to play it.
How is this a bad interview, lol? Peopel call for infestor nerfs, david kim says he wants to buff units around the infester; thats good. Units should be better, it adds to the excitement. Says he doesnt want carrier units to be a moves, and people taunt him with examples of other a move units. So what? Maybe he doesnt want to exaserbate the problem? Not like you can change collosus at this point, its too late. Not sure what you people fucking expect from him. Whatever he says the immediate response is that hes clueless. LOL.
On November 07 2012 05:09 ACrow wrote: I think the resume from replay thing might start a new trend: Prove Idra Wrong: continue from an Idra game with premature gg to turn the game around. Could be a new segment on IPL or NASL. Instead of or in addition to IPLFC we could have IPLPIW.
On November 07 2012 05:19 eleaf wrote: There is no doubt that Carriers need to be buffed. We are still afraid that carriers being used as "a-move" units in pro level play.
Am I the only dumb here? So BLs and colossus are "micro" units compared with carriers?
NO, but the carrier is faster, probabaly cloacked trough the momaship, can attack air units, hp+shield =2x the hp of a BL.... overall carrier are "safer".
Dont you guys get that zergs are ready to discuss and they´re also not amused about this dependence on the infestor? But pls lets be fair... its a video game and some guys are tooo deep into that and a lot of emotions are in this discussion...(strange lol). If we´re srsly talking about improving this game dont forget protoss 2 base plays and dont cuddle protoss too much they´re not that trashrace some people wants us to believe.
Recently, some communities are speculating rework on Terran's Raven. Any thoughts on this for HOTS?
We are almost done designing the new units. Now we are considering to completely re-design several units such as Void-ray and Raven.
Swarm Hosts in HOTS seems to change the metagame by a lot. We want know if Blizzard is satisfied with its design.
Yes, Swarm Host is one of the most satisfying new unit of HOTS. There is so much potential in this unit interms of multi tasking, long ranged siege moves, and even drop plays. Other units are more exposed during drop plays but Swarm Hots can avoid them very easily. Also Swarm Host is very "zerg" like unit. In terms of concepts and gameplay, we are very much satisfied with Swarm Host.
Infestors are one of the major units why zerg is considered to be "OP". Will there be any changes in HOTS?
We are hoping to avoid directly nerfing Infestors. The reason being is that it is the core unit of late game zerg composition. We should be careful not to nerf infesotrs. However, we are willing to make other units to counter Infestors better. For instance, Protoss has Temepst to deal with BL-Infestors much more efficiently. As such, there will not be any direct nerfs on infestor.
Recently Carriers have been added to the game once again. In WoL, Carriers are being suggested as the answer to late game zerg but it is highly inefficient. Is this still the case in HOTS?
There is no doubt that Carriers need to be buffed. We are still afraid that carriers being used as "a-move" units in pro level play. Therefore we are only considering to add minor buffs to it. We are thinking of making interceptors immune to Infestor's fungal growth.
However, we are focusing on the general metagame trend of the game so I believe it is too early for us decide how they will be changed. We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
Most of the new units introduced for Protoss in HOTS are flying units. What are your thoughts on this?
Protoss players have been focusing on Robotics Facility or Templar Archive Tech as the metagame. The use of Stargate is very rarely seen. This is why we are adding more flying units.
Oracle received several new abilities through a recent update. What are your thoughts?
In the past, Oracle was so much viable in all skills levels. Therefore we decided to change this by adding new abilities that depend more on skills of a player. Although we are still at its infant stage, they seem to be more efficient than the previous design. We believe that they are approaching the final design.
I find these responses encouraging: 1.) Units like Ravens and Void Rays to be thoroughly redesigned--awesome 2.) Swarm Hosts and Oracles approaching their final design--awesome, the SH fucking owns, and the Oracle went from lame as hell to being really cool in the latest patch 3.) Carriers need a buff, but not something that makes them better at a-moving--awesome. Hopefully this means we might get BW-style Carrier micro back 4.) Infestor nerfs will take the form of giving opponents better tools to deal with them--awesome. Units should be badass. The problem isn't that Infestors are strong, its that at a certain point and with the right support they become all but impossible to deal with 5.) They want Protoss to use stargate more--great. Stargate is by far the most multitask-heavy and skill intensive of the Toss tech tree, and Protoss using air is iconic going back to BW
On November 07 2012 05:29 whatevername wrote: How is this a bad interview, lol? Peopel call for infestor nerfs, david kim says he wants to buff units around the infester; thats good. Units should be better, it adds to the excitement. Says he doesnt want carrier units to be a moves, and people taunt him with examples of other a move units. So what? Maybe he doesnt want to exaserbate the problem? Not like you can change collosus at this point, its too late. Not sure what you people fucking expect from him. Whatever he says the immediate response is that hes clueless. LOL.
Because the fundamental issues are how the gameplay is shit because of abilities like fungal. Doesn't matter if you make tempest. Fungal is still retarded. The interview reeks with shit like this.
On November 07 2012 04:56 VTPerfect wrote: last time i checked zerg won every single tournament except escw where the only good zerg there was stephano -.-...
You mean apart from OSL, WCS Korea, WCS Asia, WCG Korea, TSL, GSL season 3 etc
Wonder who won those....
It's weird to see Protoss complain about tournament wins when they have claimed 5 of the last 6 major Korean Tournaments with 3 PvP finals, at least 2 P in the top 3 of each one and hold 50% of all the wins in the current GSTL, with 4 all-kills.
Winning tournaments don't really give you a good representation of the balance either though. When they talk about PvZ endgame, not every game (maybe not even any) can reach that point.
I don't get the excitement around the SH. Do you guys think the crowd will go nuts because a player burrows some SH's, waits 2 seconds until a bunch of slow bugs walk towards a undefended base, attack with an almost invisible projectile and then self-explode ? I didn't play the beta so I can't tell if the SH is strong, weak, usefull or not, but it looks rather boring and not spectator friendly when compared to the lurker.
On November 07 2012 04:56 VTPerfect wrote: last time i checked zerg won every single tournament except escw where the only good zerg there was stephano -.-...
You mean apart from OSL, WCS Korea, WCS Asia, WCG Korea, TSL, GSL season 3 etc
Wonder who won those....
It's weird to see Protoss complain about tournament wins when they have claimed 5 of the last 6 major Korean Tournaments with 3 PvP finals, at least 2 P in the top 3 of each one and hold 50% of all the wins in the current GSTL, with 4 all-kills.
Winning tournaments don't really give you a good representation of the balance either though. When they talk about PvZ endgame, not every game (maybe not even any) can reach that point.
to that point, i think it's more relevant to list top 8 from all the major tournaments (not just the winners) to show that (although it may be an issue) how big is it (according to the numbers) ... please use only 3 months old data
We are hoping to avoid directly nerfing Infestors. The reason being is that it is the core unit of late game zerg composition. We should be careful not to nerf infesotrs. However, we are willing to make other units to counter Infestors better. For instance, Protoss has Temepst to deal with BL-Infestors much more efficiently. As such, there will not be any direct nerfs on infestor.
What this actually means:
"We are too lazy to rebalance zerg if we nerf the core unit Infestor".
On November 07 2012 05:25 FabledIntegral wrote: Wowowowwow. The interview is fucking awful. Everything he says points to them being utterly clueless about the game.
There's a reason everyone is getting bored of the game. Their refusal to do shit about it is fucking mindblowing. Look at how many people have the HOTS beta and don't even give a damn to play it.
And I'm one of them
Same. Had beta for at least a month now and have still yet to even log in. Being a terran player, I just can't get excited about my "new" units (more like 1.5 new units, why does he even count the reaper??). That coupled with some of the retarded answers given, such as them not even considering touching the infestor really makes me have no desire to return to this game.
edit: I'm so glad that they see the infestor as the CORE zerg unit. Meaning everything revolves around that unit, so much so that you can make 20+ in one game and actually be COST EFFICIENT! Try doing that with ghosts or templar... rofl
Q: You just mentioned that zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournamentsand and the race distribution "is not that bad". However, in the incoming WCS, there are 15 zergs, 13 protoss and only 4 terrans. And we havnt seen any terrans grab champions from tournaments without the help from Korean terrrans. I'm a little confused about the proper race distribution.
A: WTF is this question??? I SAID, the race distribution is not that bad. Do you understand me? DO YOU? Just to be clear, the race distribution is not that bad and how many times had I have to mention this: "Terran is fine". Please, just write this down: "Terran is fine". I have no idea why terran just cant qualify for WCS and any other tournaments, maybe they are busy playing LOL or something. It's not my fault. Now, delete this part from your interview and let's move on to next question, OR I will give you another patch that you have to build 2 supply depots before you building any Rax. See, Starcraft II is a totally different game from BW. And forget about flash, I'm the only GOD in this game. Oh, you dont have to write this down, but keep this in your mind.
This is probably the worst answers to an interview i've ever read.
It's OBVIOUS that the infestors need to get nerfed and other zerg units need to get buffed. If zerg has a lot of infesters, they win. If they don't have any infestors, they're totally fucked. Something is obviously wrong with the game when zerg can make 40 infestors and it's actually really f*cking good. Imagine if terran made 40 ghosts, 4 battlecruisers and we're fucking unstoppable.
Ghosts got nerfed when they we're massed, why do they not nerf infestors?
"The winratio's are actually quite good."
Yes, that's probobably true.
When protoss/terran engages before broodlords, they have a big chance to win. When protoss/terran engages after broodlords, they're dead.
You don't even have to watch the engamements, you KNOW who is going to win.
Terran engages before protoss has templar/colossi comp, they win Terran engages after protoss has templar/colossi comp, they loose.
I don't even know why they aren't seeing this. It's been like this for MONTHS.
On November 07 2012 05:56 A.Alm wrote: This is probably the worst answers to an interview i've ever read.
It's OBVIOUS that the infestors need to get nerfed and other zerg units need to get buffed. If zerg has a lot of infesters, they win. If they don't have any infestors, they're totally fucked. Something is obviously wrong with the game when zerg can make 40 infestors and it's actually really f*cking good. Imagine if terran made 40 ghosts, 4 battlecruisers and we're fucking unstoppable.
Ghosts got nerfed when they we're massed, why do they not nerf infestors?
This is just one part of the game david kim has no fucking idea about.
f*ck this game.
Exactly. Fucking exactly. The point of the game shouldn't be "i'm going to mass as many of this fucking spell caster as possible."
Not only is it stupid, but it's not like it's just limited to that. Fungal growth isn't just an OP spell, it's a stupid spell. It'd be one thing if it was JUST OP, like the base stats did a ridic amount of dmg. It's completely the fact that it roots and prevents other units from even attacking it in the first place. Even when ghosts were super powerful with snipe (nowhere near this situation), you could at least still ATTACK the ghosts or RUN from them. In this situation, you can do neither.
To be honest, my biggest complain on this interview, is how boring terran looks for an expansion. Changes to Raven, Reaper, some mine and battlehellions just doesn't cut it for me.
I think i will like playing zergs and protoss, but terran "new" units aren't enough expansion material imho.
About infestor/broodlord, they aren't going to change a single thing, they are more focused and interested on how HoTS develop, even if it is making every match up at WoL one-dimensional (which is bad game designer 101 even if it is balanced). I am a guy who only plays for fun, and watch for the same, and i still have fun, but i am not really "hyped" like i think we should be at this point when there's actually a beta and people can stream it.
On November 07 2012 05:56 A.Alm wrote: This is probably the worst answers to an interview i've ever read.
It's OBVIOUS that the infestors need to get nerfed and other zerg units need to get buffed. If zerg has a lot of infesters, they win. If they don't have any infestors, they're totally fucked. Something is obviously wrong with the game when zerg can make 40 infestors and it's actually really f*cking good. Imagine if terran made 40 ghosts, 4 battlecruisers and we're fucking unstoppable.
Ghosts got nerfed when they we're massed, why do they not nerf infestors?
This is just one part of the game david kim and his crew has no f*cking clue about.
f*ck this game.
Because that is blizzard vision. Blizzard wants the game to be played as they plnned And if they originally wanted onfestor to be a massable unit then it shall be. Also if something that they did not intend becomes popular it must br nerfed immediatly because thats not their vision. Even if this would brake the balance. Like how they did with mech vs protoss (thor).
Well, even DK says there are design problems of BL/infestor. They are reluctant to nerf zerg because they think those are design problems but not balance problem and if they nerf zerg then it will be imbalanced.
Terran will be in pretty bad situation if they don't add anything new. There are so many new threats from Protoss and Zerg. It's quite obvious that Terran's current arsenal cannot deal with them.
On November 07 2012 05:46 Sea_Food wrote: Terran getting 1 unit. Terran getting 1 unit blizzard says that is ok. And its a mine.
I have seen patches that affect more than this damn expansion.
I think it's good. Terran has plenty of units, and always had more than the other races (especially zerg).
The new units are not the problem. They could give Terran 100 new units and it wouldn't matter as long as Terrans feel their late game sucks and Mech isn't viable vs Toss.
Those issues need to be fixed. Maybe Blizzard will make adjustments to WOL units - but I doubt it. Although a Raven FIX that makes it more assessable and more useful vs late game Protoss could help a lot.
I read somewhere that someone said david Kim was an idiot that only looked at statistics and I thought that was silly. But I'm starting to think its true. Win rate doesn't indicate balance even if its 50/50. If half the games are an all in from p like immortal sentry and the other half are massed investors with broodlords with the occasional win coming from just being much much better than the opponent (on either side) then there is something messed up with the matchup. Just because a protoss wins a tournament doesn't mean everything is OK. I hate when people call statistics as their proof of no imbalance. Its the shittiest matchup to watch and to play. SO boring
For instance, Protoss has Temepst to deal with BL-Infestors much more efficiently. Only freak like answerer could consider Tempest to be a good help against zerg's late game dominance. Whole the world talk to blizzard (in interviews, at forums) that the infestors are the stupidest unit, and it must be nerfed/redesigned, but that's okey, just use Tempest. How do i want these two clowns(d kim, d browder) leave this company.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
what a mean thing to say, as if your opinion matters more or is more valuable
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
Your opinion matters even less than Clouds... Nobody said MLG was boring, but only that zerg lategame is. If you enjoy it, it's probably because you're retarded, hence the watching of LoL as well.
Although I will always agree that my opinion is not very important, Cloud’s opinion equally as irrelevant. I have never heard him say anything positive or constructive that should be taken seriously. I have never seen him make a reasonable argument about anything and mostly whines about how badly he feels game is made, yet he continues to play.
Good point. He is little more than a serial whiner. It's rather ironic as this is his job (as a SC2 pro or semi-pro) but he constantly whines about how bad it all is. Given that he chooses to game for a living (something a lot of other people would envy) he needs to get his head out of his ass. You don't like your job? Fine. Get another. If you can't or won't, then shut up about how bad it is. A lot of other people do terrible jobs (far worse than playing a race you don't like in game you constantly run down) and get on with it. Cloud might want to think about that, and either get better or just shut up already.
As they say, a bad workman blames his tools.
(I swear, there are few things worse than mediocre foreign terran pros, constantly crying about hard it all is.)
On November 07 2012 01:02 wwowz wrote: Many Protoss players have been complaining that it is impossible to deal with BL-Infestor combo. Some pro-players are suggesting that it is impossible to beat late game PvZ.
Yes we are aware that such issues are present. However in Starleague, Protoss players dominated against zerg players and considering other tournaments, PvZ is not completely one sided. There is a problem with the match up but we believe that it can be fixed through various patches. As for now, we should take time to decide wether this is a serious problem or not. If we believe that it is not an issue, balance updates will be focused on HOTS.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
what a mean thing to say, as if your opinion matters more or is more valuable
What can I say, I am tired of being nice about it. I am tired of the semi-professional SC2 players shouting from the heavens that SC2 is dying the LoL is taking over every time some piece of news comes out. It gets old fast. I am tired of people calling David Kim an idiot because is not reacting to the community’s demands and waiting, which is what the community asked for previously. Of players whining that Blizzard is not making the game easier for them.
These interviews were the first interesting piece of news I have read on TL. The rest has been community non-sense.
On November 07 2012 06:27 Corrosive wrote: I read somewhere that someone said david Kim was an idiot that only looked at statistics and I thought that was silly. But I'm starting to think its true. Win rate doesn't indicate balance even if its 50/50. If half the games are an all in from p like immortal sentry and the other half are massed investors with broodlords with the occasional win coming from just being much much better than the opponent (on either side) then there is something messed up with the matchup. Just because a protoss wins a tournament doesn't mean everything is OK. I hate when people call statistics as their proof of no imbalance. Its the shittiest matchup to watch and to play. SO boring
you know what is even worse? David Kim use Overall stats, when he says 50/50 he includes bronze,silver and gold league stats. Who in their right mind woulld include stats from bronze league?.
On November 07 2012 06:27 Corrosive wrote: I read somewhere that someone said david Kim was an idiot that only looked at statistics and I thought that was silly. But I'm starting to think its true. Win rate doesn't indicate balance even if its 50/50. If half the games are an all in from p like immortal sentry and the other half are massed investors with broodlords with the occasional win coming from just being much much better than the opponent (on either side) then there is something messed up with the matchup. Just because a protoss wins a tournament doesn't mean everything is OK. I hate when people call statistics as their proof of no imbalance. Its the shittiest matchup to watch and to play. SO boring
He's not saying the stats PROVE that, he's just stating that as an indicator. A lot of people seem to think that Blizzard should give extremely direct answers but is that really good for Blizz? When you're developing something you probably want some privacy don't you think? Him saying that they're keeping an eye on things should be enough. For example if he says BL/infestor is OP, instead of it seems it's OP and that we get a lot of feedback about it, then people will probably expect a nerf and/or everyone watching games vs Z will watch in disgust as even the balancer thinks it's OP. But then what if they determine it's not OP? that would then disappoint players, making them seem incompetent because they change their minds so often
I don't understand why so many people read into things so deeply. Also remember it's a translation, exact wording isn't possible. When people scrutinize wording in an interview so much, do you think they'll even want to give interviews anymore?
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
what a mean thing to say, as if your opinion matters more or is more valuable
What can I say, I am tired of being nice about it. I am tired of the semi-professional SC2 players shouting from the heavens that SC2 is dying the LoL is taking over every time some piece of news comes out. It gets old fast. I am tired of people calling David Kim an idiot because is not reacting to the community’s demands and waiting, which is what the community asked for previously. Of players whining that Blizzard is not making the game easier for them.
These interviews were the first interesting piece of news I have read on TL. The rest has been community non-sense.
Wow, totally agree. Seriously everyone just whines too much. QQQQ. You want A then you want B then you want A again and it repeats then you call them idiots for not doing X and Y (responding or listening to the community). This interview was very interesting to me, as it shows once again they know what the fuck they're doing, even if they're not going to be able to fix it so quickly.
Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
On November 07 2012 06:27 Corrosive wrote: I read somewhere that someone said david Kim was an idiot that only looked at statistics and I thought that was silly. But I'm starting to think its true. Win rate doesn't indicate balance even if its 50/50. If half the games are an all in from p like immortal sentry and the other half are massed investors with broodlords with the occasional win coming from just being much much better than the opponent (on either side) then there is something messed up with the matchup. Just because a protoss wins a tournament doesn't mean everything is OK. I hate when people call statistics as their proof of no imbalance. Its the shittiest matchup to watch and to play. SO boring
you know what is even worse? David Kim use Overall stats, when he says 50/50 he includes bronze,silver and gold league stats. Who in their right mind will include stats from bronze league?.
Why do you automatically assume this? Previous interviews with DK or blogs he's written also cite statistics which are broken down by league, by game length, etc. The whine in this thread getting silly.
- Still can't make custom names for custom games like BW and WC3.
Changes will come to custom game system, but no custom names.
What? I'm usually not someone who complains about things like this, but damn what is the fucking problem with custom names? Is it such a huge deal for them to implement these? oO
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Back in the day when it was reversed about terran they nerfed terran aproximately 20 times in a row. So stop talking rubbish.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I just wanted to quote cloud for once - mirrors my thoughts
Could you avoid doing that? It makes it seem like his opinion matters or he has something valuable to say. My friends and I watched both SC2 and LoL this weekend and had a great time. Shockingly, we are able to enjoy both with no issues.
Your opinion matters even less than Clouds... Nobody said MLG was boring, but only that zerg lategame is. If you enjoy it, it's probably because you're retarded, hence the watching of LoL as well.
Although I will always agree that my opinion is not very important, Cloud’s opinion equally as irrelevant. I have never heard him say anything positive or constructive that should be taken seriously. I have never seen him make a reasonable argument about anything and mostly whines about how badly he feels game is made, yet he continues to play.
Good point. He is little more than a serial whiner. It's rather ironic as this is his job (as a SC2 pro or semi-pro) but he constantly whines about how bad it all is. Given that he chooses to game for a living (something a lot of other people would envy) he needs to get his head out of his ass. You don't like your job? Fine. Get another. If you can't or won't, then shut up about how bad it is. A lot of other people do terrible jobs (far worse than playing a race you don't like in game you constantly run down) and get on with it. Cloud might want to think about that, and either get better or just shut up already.
As they say, a bad workman blames his tools.
(I swear, there are few things worse than mediocre foreign terran pros, constantly crying about hard it all is.)
Didn’t Artosis say something about that a year ago? That he couldn’t wait until they balanced terran so the players how good they really were at SC2. I remember those days. Not everyone can be Demulsim, who just said in a blog “I lose because it’s my fault, I need to stop making excuses. That isn’t how you win”.
- Still can't make custom names for custom games like BW and WC3.
Changes will come to custom game system, but no custom names.
What? I'm usually not someone who complains about things like this, but damn what is the fucking problem with custom names? Is it such a huge deal for them to implement these? oO
they probably want to avoid stupid names that some people would use
they don't want people seeing this on their new battle.net 2.0:
JOHNS FFA micro tournament, no noobs SEKS BARN monobattle ^_^
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Back in the day when it was reversed about terran they nerfed terran aproximately 20 times in a row. So stop talking rubbish.
Logical fallacy, it doesn't follow.
1) sequential events doesn't equate to cause and effect 2) there may be nerfs in the future 3) didn't address my argument that there are a bunch of idiots or just really bad players on Bnet that QQ about everything 4) doesn't address that it may be a vocal minority 5) doesn't address the fact that previously Blizz fixed things so quickly, but then community said they shouldn't be so hasty, now everyone QQs cus they're not hasty 6) also back then terrans were dominating hard, whereas zergs now aren't dominating as hard as terrans were back then -- the situation is different. Zerg lategame BL/infestor is strong but that doesn't mean the MU is imbalanced, whatever way you consider that to be
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Seemed to work for all the Terran nerfs when zerg were crying.
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
They've been complaining on the blizzard forums since the advent of SC2. I think it's more disgusting that the irrational mentality to whine is spilling over into TL. Where some pro-gamers -- and maybe high masters-GM to an extent may be affected by the possible imbalance, everyone else who is entirely unaffected runs off and champions the cause when they hear their favorite personality (Destiny) endorse it.
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Seemed to work for all the Terran nerfs when zerg were crying.
So a bunch of Protoss players could just start doing a coordinated QQ session on Bnet, and then Blizzard should answer their demands quickly and blindly without investigating things first, and using their experience and skills -- much greater than those of us -- to make sure the QQ is justified?
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Seemed to work for all the Terran nerfs when zerg were crying.
Well terran was winning before players could even get beyond 2 bases. Everyone remember close positions vs terrans when they could rax before supply depot. Hell, they used to one base the shit out of protoss. Or just crush ever Bit-by-bitPrime style and box their workers, backed up by 6 marines. Those were the days. End game was some myth protoss heard about and getting storm and colossi at the same time was unheard of.
So yeah, it was a little different back then. Flash made it to the top three of MGL. In the era of GomTvT, 7 of the top 8 were terrans.
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
On November 07 2012 06:50 masaker wrote: Omg why are you Terrans still complaining ? Try to use ghosts properly. 2 EMPs on clumped infestors and game is over just go and practice.
Yeah festors need a bit of nerf .. like lesser radius, a bit lower DMG for FG. But nothing too dramatic.
EMP is not anywhere near as effective vs infestors as you might think. They don't clump like HT do because they are too fat. Honestly, I think balance would be helped a lot by simply making the infestors smaller so they can clump better....
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
Does any remember the marauder in the first year of SC2? Or mutas 8 months ago? Or the marine when MKP showed us all how awesome it was? This has all happened before and it will all happen again.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
Well whether there is "enough" QQing or not is highly subjective. Also what argument do you have for it not being in a vacuum?
Just an example, many people have been saying mech doesn't work vs Z, yet we've still seen it used occasionally, and do well enough to seem viable. And now more recently, we've been seeing more mech in TvZ with the repopularization of hellion/banshee openers and now even the BFH/viking opening MVP kept using vs Life in GSL Finals.
If they buffed that, then the community would then complain that it was too hasty. Same with TvT mech, how it become so popular suddenly and then was quickly nerfed via BFH.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Seemed to work for all the Terran nerfs when zerg were crying.
Well terran was winning before players could even get beyond 2 bases. Everyone remember close positions vs terrans when they could rax before supply depot. Hell, they used to one base the shit out of protoss. Or just crush ever Bit-by-bitPrime style and box their workers, backed up by 6 marines. Those were the days. End game was some myth protoss heard about and getting storm and colossi at the same time was unheard of.
Oh I see, so because Zerg wins all the time in late game its ok.
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Seemed to work for all the Terran nerfs when zerg were crying.
Well terran was winning before players could even get beyond 2 bases. Everyone remember close positions vs terrans when they could rax before supply depot. Hell, they used to one base the shit out of protoss. Or just crush ever Bit-by-bitPrime style and box their workers, backed up by 6 marines. Those were the days. End game was some myth protoss heard about and getting storm and colossi at the same time was unheard of.
Oh I see, so because Zerg wins all the time in late game its ok.
I'd love to see them for one day revert everything back to day 1 WoL release on this map pool. Just to see how shit plays out. So many nerfs and buffs were applied due to a incredibly horrible map pool that didn't allow anything other than 1 base allins/2 base if you were zerg.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
Well whether there is "enough" QQing or not is highly subjective. Also what argument do you have for it not being in a vacuum?
Just an example, many people have been saying mech doesn't work vs Z, yet we've still seen it used occasionally, and do well enough to seem viable. And now more recently, we've been seeing more mech in TvZ with the repopularization of hellion/banshee openers and now even the BFH/viking opening MVP kept using vs Life in GSL Finals.
If they buffed that, then the community would then complain that it was too hasty. Same with TvT mech, how it become so popular suddenly and then was quickly nerfed via BFH.
The mech argument is great because most people who try to "mech" just build tanks and then complain when they don't destory every unit their opponent throws at them. If you listen to any who played mech in BW(idra, artosis), they said it was extreamly hard and unforgiving, yet every amature play cries from the heavens that mech isn't viable and needs to be fixed. Yet, when Blizzard add mechanical units to the factory, they complain that those units are not "proper" mech units and demanding a buff to the siege tank. And after all of that, Flash appears and shows us we all have idea what we are talking about and uses thors and tanks against zerg, crushing his way to third place in MLG.
- Still can't make custom names for custom games like BW and WC3.
Changes will come to custom game system, but no custom names.
What? I'm usually not someone who complains about things like this, but damn what is the fucking problem with custom names? Is it such a huge deal for them to implement these? oO
they probably want to avoid stupid names that some people would use
they don't want people seeing this on their new battle.net 2.0:
JOHNS FFA micro tournament, no noobs SEKS BARN monobattle ^_^
Because gaming is all serious business 'n shit... :/ I just don't understand it. It's little things like these that make a game lovable and enjoyable. There is demand for them in the community and it's probably really easy to implement them. But well, I guess we have to stick with battle.net 0.2.
On November 07 2012 06:57 Satiinifi wrote: Its so disgusting if you check blizzards forums are filled with nothing but complaining about zerg and yet mr dk thinks everything is fucking fine and dandy.
Cus Blizz should answer the demands of a bunch of players who may or may not be a vocal minority, and who are mostly all probably lower than Masters.
have u seen the stupidity on those forums?
Seemed to work for all the Terran nerfs when zerg were crying.
Well terran was winning before players could even get beyond 2 bases. Everyone remember close positions vs terrans when they could rax before supply depot. Hell, they used to one base the shit out of protoss. Or just crush ever Bit-by-bitPrime style and box their workers, backed up by 6 marines. Those were the days. End game was some myth protoss heard about and getting storm and colossi at the same time was unheard of.
Oh I see, so because Zerg wins all the time in late game its ok.
What is your standard for "all of the time"? If "all of the time" is as often as terran won in the era of GomTvT, then they don't win all the time. The era when terrans were nerfted, they were CRUSHING everyone out of the lower brackets. The big debate was when protoss would be elimiated from the GSL, round of 16 or round of 8.
And I didn't I thought say the infestor was "ok". I am just tired of amature players crying about how they can't win.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
Agree about WCS, there is 5 korean top protoss. I think it will be korean top 3 (as always at tournaments with high level koreans). So top 3 is protosses
And I didn't I thought say the infestor was "ok". I am just tired of amature players crying about how they can't win.
Yes, Demuslim, Taeja, MMA, MVP, and other prominent Terrans are all amateur players.
How was zerg doing before the changes? ZvP has been broken for ages but TvZ needed some sort of change. Clearly either the queen nerf was too much or zergs anti-marine measures need to be tweaked.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
Does any remember the marauder in the first year of SC2? Or mutas 8 months ago? Or the marine when MKP showed us all how awesome it was? This has all happened before and it will all happen again.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
I couldn't agree more. I think you summed it up with the word "arrogance." To ignore the community like this and state "win rates between races in major large tournaments are balanced" is completely ridiculous. Is this guy living in a hole? He is completely out of touch with the community. His general response indicates "everything is fine," but some units may require tweaking - except the infestor. If one looks at the decisions this guy is making you would think he is a teenage kid sitting in the basement of his parents house playing Zerg all day trying to make it to GM - "I know, just one more Zerg buff and I can make it!" He looks 12 years old anyway, so it's not too difficult to picture this scenario.
Let's see...you saw the need to include a Terran unit like the Warhound at one point, but now you think the race should be satified? Sorry I'm not very excited about HOTS for a window mine (i.e. spider mine) and a worthless reaper. Lets not forget battle helions! Sorry but changing the name from battlehelions to "hellbat" is not a upgrade - and doesn't make mech TvP any more viable. Someone needs to fire this kid...
This thread has turned out to be very funny. I want to compliment plansix and yoshi kirishima on their useful contributions, though.
On the interviews: nothing strange really. I'm only a bit disappointed that they are not even considering changing the infestor. I mean, he said 'no direct nerfs', but there is very little to change the rooting ability without it being a nerf. I really hope they change something about it. But pretty positive about the rest of it
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
In society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. Comparing SC2 to societal market systems doesn't really translate. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. Either way, most people argue for the wrong reasons, and it's upsetting.
On November 07 2012 07:31 MayZerG_UK wrote: Are we still going on about zerg being OP with broodlord infestor?
Please remind me who won WCS Asia and OSL finals? Was that a zerg? How many times has MVP been in the finals? Does he play zerg?
Some people are so delusional...
You're right, we should continue to balance Terran and Protoss around 1 or 2 top tier players. So delusional...
And I didn't I thought say the infestor was "ok". I am just tired of amature players crying about how they can't win.
Yes, Demuslim, Taeja, MMA, MVP, and other prominent Terrans are all amateur players.
How was zerg doing before the changes? ZvP has been broken for ages but TvZ needed some sort of change. Clearly either the queen nerf was too much or zergs anti-marine measures need to be tweaked.
Being honest ? TvZ problem was the early game being really favored to terrans due to lack of scouting tools for zerg and variety of openings for terrans, if you added the maps into the equation you had terran OP. Of course, aside ghosts and snipe, and non-energy thors kicking protoss.
It was proven by GSL results, that a Zerg could handle the early T game with tons of game sense. If we are looking at the winners, like DK is doing, or at least as he explicitly stated. Still, it made early game on TvZ volatile and unfun to watch, since some minor mistake from the zerg could utterly stop the game there, at minute 5-6. Totally unfun to watch, and unfair in my opinion. If they survived early game, Zerg had a chance (before people realized how imbalanced snipe vs zerg was).
What's the difference now with infestors/broodlords ? It's lategame. It's better because the game haven't ended, but it's bad game design because the game isn't revolved into winning your opponent, but winning him before he gets that unit composition because if you are not on a map where you are able to split it, there's no way you will get in time a reliable counter to that unit composition. So the game many times, can end with a single mistake from the terran, like not keeping spread the vikings fast enough, will cost you the game.
And now, we are not speaking only the TvZ, but how infestor/broodlord unit composition affects every ZvX match up on a similar way, vortex/no vortex, money fungals, etc...
OP ? Infestor/broodlord isn't OP in the big scheme of the zerg race, since you can do timing attacks to cripple it or win outright before it, but leads to a one-dimensional early, midgame and way more lategame experience, pretty much like early game on TvZ was in the past, and maps/units/buildings were adjusted.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor.There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch.
OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses.
2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal.
- Still can't make custom names for custom games like BW and WC3.
Changes will come to custom game system, but no custom names.
What? I'm usually not someone who complains about things like this, but damn what is the fucking problem with custom names? Is it such a huge deal for them to implement these? oO
they probably want to avoid stupid names that some people would use
they don't want people seeing this on their new battle.net 2.0:
JOHNS FFA micro tournament, no noobs SEKS BARN monobattle ^_^
Because gaming is all serious business 'n shit... :/ I just don't understand it. It's little things like these that make a game lovable and enjoyable. There is demand for them in the community and it's probably really easy to implement them. But well, I guess we have to stick with battle.net 0.2.
I think the real problem is that blizz doesnt want the return of bots: autokicking people who were noobs or banned, making the same game with another number after it, havin profane names on occasion.. Blizz thinks they can do it better and i still beliee thy cannot but i can see why they wont do it.
Everything else DK said is pretty rational: HoTS balance on release and encourages micro and discourages BLs( and therefore discourages hive rush) , wol metagame is troublesome but not imbalanced fully or stagnant(i beleieve this is true, i only watch GSL and MLG though recently), they are being conservative with balance which i prefer.
perhaps fungal can reduce movement speed of affected units to a VERY LOW value... also, change so that infested terrans pop faster (so you can chase the slowly running away air units that might be harassing you) but adjust by lowering hp of these infested terrans (by 10 hp?)
David Kim: Hey Dustin, there's been a lot of feedback about broodlord-infestor again... Dustin Brown: Sshh Dave, can't you see i'm balancing these rocks! Just tell them it's 50-50!
- Still can't make custom names for custom games like BW and WC3.
Changes will come to custom game system, but no custom names.
What? I'm usually not someone who complains about things like this, but damn what is the fucking problem with custom names? Is it such a huge deal for them to implement these? oO
they probably want to avoid stupid names that some people would use
they don't want people seeing this on their new battle.net 2.0:
JOHNS FFA micro tournament, no noobs SEKS BARN monobattle ^_^
Because gaming is all serious business 'n shit... :/ I just don't understand it. It's little things like these that make a game lovable and enjoyable. There is demand for them in the community and it's probably really easy to implement them. But well, I guess we have to stick with battle.net 0.2.
I couldn´t agree more. Really irrittates me that this has still not been done.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor.There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch.
OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses.
2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal.
Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions.
My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion.
As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset. Like, there is no "solution" to that problem other than to redesign it completely, which isn't productive without offering a balanced alternative which everyone conveniently leaves Blizzard to do.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor.There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch.
OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses.
2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal.
Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions.
My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion.
As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset.
You have no idea how casual gamers think do you?
Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem.
Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time.
You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment.
Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage.
Just to reiterate: Casuals don't give a fuck about their "potential", they neither have the time nor desire to be even semi-pro and have made their peace with that generally.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this.
I wouldnt call the infestor a recent metagame issue. The design of fungal and IT is making alot of people feel they start the game at a big disadvantage. What you think about the infestor at pro level aside, im sure all of us who have been playing sc2 for a long time would agree that the infestor is most likely quite OP in lower leagues. The design of the infestor obviously makes it hard for a lot of people to enjoy the game. Why shouldnt they ask blizzard to adress this? Is it impossible to fix it with out nerfing zerg? You are assuming people make the irrational connection you described but you dont know this is the case so i dont understand why you bring it up. There are people who play this game and rarely watch streams/tournaments and even if they do, why would they make this connection? Do you? im guessing not. I dont. Why would i assume everyone who complains do?
The funny thing is how people from TL doesnt realize that bronze player never play infestor and always go muta. Infestor is too hard to micro for them. (true story !)
On November 07 2012 08:11 Jarree wrote: David Kim: Hey Dustin, there's been a lot of feedback about broodlord-infestor again... Dustin Brown: Sshh Dave, can't you see i'm balancing these rocks! Just tell them it's 50-50!
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor.There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch.
OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses.
2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal.
Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions.
My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion.
As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset.
You have no idea how casual gamers think do you?
Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem.
Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time.
You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment.
Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage.
No really, re-read the quoted posts. You've taken my post way out of context.
Regardless, Fungal Growth has nothing to do with these players losing no matter how casual they are. They lose because they're bad -- but they're fighting bad zerg. If Fungal Growth was really overpowered to the extent that it'd adversely affect their winrates then they would be paired with worse zergs statistically to balance their winrate.
The point (in contention in my original post) is that they then whine irrationally when they see a progamer lose and cite imbalance, drawing the connection that x is overpowered cause they've lost to it too, when it has nothing to do with why they're ultimately losing. The whine is infact irrational for the most part.
One of the most exciting answers for me was that they're considering using Nony's idea for BW like Carrier control.
Also, I really think that they should nerf infestor a bit in hots, specifically make fugal a slow instead of snare. Buff the viper so it has a bigger / better blinding cloud to compensate, it will require more micro all around.
I am a proud terran and I wouldn't mind if widow mine would be the only new unit in Hots. I feel T is very well rounded and has more freedom than Z or P. I think right now the only enjoyable match-ups to play and watch are the ones involving Terran. I feel if Hots expands all the three races equally, Terran would be ahead.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this.
I wouldnt call the infestor a recent metagame issue. The design of fungal and IT is making alot of people feel they start the game at a big disadvantage. What you think about the infestor at pro level aside, im sure all of us who have been playing sc2 for a long time would agree that the infestor is most likely quite OP in lower leagues. The design of the infestor obviously makes it hard for a lot of people to enjoy the game. Why shouldnt they ask blizzard to adress this? Is it impossible to fix it with out nerfing zerg? You are assuming people make the irrational connection you described but you dont know this is the case so i dont understand why you bring it up. There are people who play this game and rarely watch streams/tournaments and even if they do, why would they make this connection? Do you? im guessing not. I dont. Why would i assume everyone who complains do?
It's a metagame issue, whether it be the result of systematic imbalance or stagnant Terran innovation. It's a different argument to address design. You appear to be confusing the two.
You also conclude players aren't irrational in their approach to dealing with infestors yet you stated earlier they "feel" behind, which is irrational. They're on the ladder fighting zergs who generally are statistically inclined to have no more than a 50-55% chance to beat them. It doesn't matter if it's overpowered -- the matches themselves are even. And they can improve and fight stronger zerg. As long as they aren't fighting the zergs top pros fight they have the opportunity for success.
What's irrational though is to draw a connection to these high level games and then conclude that you're losing because of the same thing when you're no where near that level. What discourages casual players is when people build up the propagated imbalance like the game is unplayable, and these players embrace it as an excuse for their losses rather than dealing with it so that they can get better -- no matter the rate that they would intend.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor.There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch.
OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses.
2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal.
Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions.
My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion.
As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset.
You have no idea how casual gamers think do you?
Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem.
Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time.
You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment.
Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage.
No really, re-read the quoted posts. You've taken my post way out of context.
Regardless, Fungal Growth has nothing to do with these players losing no matter how casual they are. They lose because they're bad -- but they're fighting bad zerg. If Fungal Growth was really overpowered to the extent that it'd adversely affect their winrates then they would be paired with worse zergs statistically to balance their winrate.
The point (in contention in my original post) is that they then whine irrationally when they see a progamer lose and cite imbalance, drawing the connection that x is overpowered cause they've lost to it too, when it has nothing to do with why they're ultimately losing. The whine is infact irrational for the most part.
So you're saying that an "irrational connection" is made when Zerg wins at a pro level because the viewer (low level player), convinced by his own anecdotal experience, engages in some form of self-justificatory exercise concluding that "X player couldn't beat race Y, race Y is imbalanced, no wonder I lose".
That argument would hold only if it was true that only Terran players whine about ZvT, but that is not always the case. I've seen plenty non-Protosses complain about ZvP. Hell, some of the complaints are even about the BL Infestor composition in ZvZ (when games take FOREVER to finish).
EDIT: Your argument also gets weaker as the level of the person making the complaint gets higher. E.g. if someone like Taeja or MarineKing made a complaint.
On November 07 2012 08:30 Chronos. wrote: One of the most exciting answers for me was that they're considering using Nony's idea for BW like Carrier control.
Also, I really think that they should nerf infestor a bit in hots, specifically make fugal a slow instead of snare. Buff the viper so it has a bigger / better blinding cloud to compensate, it will require more micro all around.
It's sad that it took them 5 years (at least) and a youtube video to understand a mechanic that was in the game for which they created the sequel. David Kim should know these kind of stuff (wasn't he a broodwar pro/semi pro at some point?). Every interview with people that are actually in charge of the game leave me absolutely unimpressed.
We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor.There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch.
OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses.
2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal.
Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions.
My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion.
As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset.
You have no idea how casual gamers think do you?
Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem.
Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time.
You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment.
Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage.
No really, re-read the quoted posts. You've taken my post way out of context.
Regardless, Fungal Growth has nothing to do with these players losing no matter how casual they are. They lose because they're bad -- but they're fighting bad zerg. If Fungal Growth was really overpowered to the extent that it'd adversely affect their winrates then they would be paired with worse zergs statistically to balance their winrate.
The point (in contention in my original post) is that they then whine irrationally when they see a progamer lose and cite imbalance, drawing the connection that x is overpowered cause they've lost to it too, when it has nothing to do with why they're ultimately losing. The whine is infact irrational for the most part.
So you're saying that an "irrational connection" is made when Zerg wins at a pro level because the viewer (low level player), convinced by his own anecdotal experience, engages in some form of self-justificatory exercise concluding that "X player couldn't beat race Y, race Y is imbalanced, no wonder I lose".
That argument would hold only if it was true that only Terran players whine about ZvT, but that is not always the case. I've seen plenty non-Protosses complain about ZvP. Hell, some of the complaints are even about the BL Infestor composition in ZvZ (when games take FOREVER to finish).
EDIT: Your argument also gets weaker as the level of the person making the complaint gets higher. E.g. if someone like Taeja or MarineKing made a complaint.
People whine about a ton of shit. The ZvT metagame issue is simply that much more pervasive.
"non-protoss players" complaining about ZvP is different though. ZvP is also in a weird metagame that rewards the zerg turtling and the protoss all-inning which isn't interesting to watch.
I'm not arguing that the people whining are wrong. Just that it's for the most part irrational and not constructive -- and that SC2 is not dying because the "imbalance" is causing disinterest amongst pros and casuals alike whom flock to LoL. If Taeja or MKP came out and said x was imbalanced they could likely be correct.
The problem is when pros come out, say the game design is fucked up and that the game is gonna die. It only hurts the community, especially when it's largely exaggerated and untrue.
On November 07 2012 08:11 Jarree wrote: David Kim: Hey Dustin, there's been a lot of feedback about broodlord-infestor again... Dustin Brown: Sshh Dave, can't you see i'm balancing these rocks! Just tell them it's 50-50!
On November 07 2012 07:31 MayZerG_UK wrote: Are we still going on about zerg being OP with broodlord infestor?
Please remind me who won WCS Asia and OSL finals? Was that a zerg? How many times has MVP been in the finals? Does he play zerg?
Some people are so delusional...
Rofl. Because it is not delusional to look at the winners of tournaments? Why do you think Zs got a queen and overlord buff. A lot of zergs were having problems with early game terrans due to lack of scouting , BF hellions denying creep and getting killed by early aggression by T. Which I do think was an issue. However, Nestea won 3 GSL, DRG was probably the #1 player in the world after his GSL and MLG win. So why did Queens and overlords get buff? IF DRG was winning tournaments with so many Ts in it, zergs should have been fine, right?
"Although you can't change the name of the game created, we are implanting many other things in HOTS. We are trying to make rarely played games to be more exposed to the players. Therefore we are still not considering to add such feature."
On November 07 2012 09:40 GolemMadness wrote: "Although you can't change the name of the game created, we are implanting many other things in HOTS. We are trying to make rarely played games to be more exposed to the players. Therefore we are still not considering to add such feature."
What is wrong with Blizzard?
They have a major world wide tournament that is set to go on in 11 days and don't think that releasing a balance patch is a good idea until that is over.
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
On November 07 2012 09:40 GolemMadness wrote: "Although you can't change the name of the game created, we are implanting many other things in HOTS. We are trying to make rarely played games to be more exposed to the players. Therefore we are still not considering to add such feature."
What is wrong with Blizzard?
They have a major world wide tournament that is set to go on in 11 days and don't think that releasing a balance patch is a good idea until that is over.
That literally has nothing to do with what I quoted.
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
Straight from liquipedia: "NonY is a professional StarCraft 2 player (and former Brood War player) from the United States"
On November 07 2012 09:40 GolemMadness wrote: "Although you can't change the name of the game created, we are implanting many other things in HOTS. We are trying to make rarely played games to be more exposed to the players. Therefore we are still not considering to add such feature."
What is wrong with Blizzard?
They have a major world wide tournament that is set to go on in 11 days and don't think that releasing a balance patch is a good idea until that is over.
That literally has nothing to do with what I quoted.
You are correct, I blame lack of food and a long day followed by long lines in the voting poll center for misreading your quote.
On a second read, I am sure not sure what is going on there. There must be a reason software reason why the name cannot be changed, most likely do to back end issue on how they list games.
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
Ass. He is on Team Liquid and anyone on that team is more qualified than you to talk about who is or is not a professional player.
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
If he isn't a pro player then what is he, you tell me ?
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
If he isn't a pro player then what is he, you tell me ?
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
If he isn't a pro player then what is he, you tell me ?
On his book a professional-nonprofessional gamer i guess.
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
If he isn't a pro player then what is he, you tell me ?
Is there any race in particular that stands out in HOTS? Also, how are balance changes going to occur in HOTS?
Currently we are not at the stage of analyzing the racial balance. Instead, we are focusing on what to do with the new units that are being added. We are trying to make pro gamers recognize the potential of new units and use them more often in games. Having said that, we can't say which race is OP and which isn't. We think all new units are strong.
In WoL, Zerg seems to dominate lategame after hive tech. What are your thoughts on this and how are you going to address it? Also on the similar note, Terran's bio seems useless at the late game and the immortal/sentry all-in rush in PvZ seems really strong.
Looking at the overall tournaments, we believe that there is balance in pro-gaming level. Although we have been getting tons of feedbacks on Zerg being OP, if we take a look at last 10 major tournamets, racial distributions in players and winners are balanced. Although it may seemed that Zerg's late game is unbeatable, W/L ratio is still being balanced at 50:50. At this time we have to wait for new strategies from progamers.
Currently the most widely discussed unit is BL - Infestor combination.If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
Terran's Bio force are dominating in early and mid game. Considering the variety of metagame, we don't see any problem in this. In HOTS, we are going to make mech play more viable so that progamers can use both bio and mech depending on their characteristics.
Recently, the metagame demonstrated in large tournaments seem to be stable. We are speculating that this is due to players abusing certain metagame composition. What are your thoughts on this?
Yes, we are aware that this is happening but we believe that there are still variations among players. For e.g. TvZ, MKP will put more emphasis on bionic to take control of the mid to late game with micro. LG-IM's MVP will favor mechanic in this match up. However, we are aware that many players are using similar build and this issue is very difficult to touch upon in WoL. Without adding new units, we have to fix many other factors to prevent balance from collapsing. Thus we are going to address this issue in HOTS through new units.
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life. More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
Some of the changes from WoL to HOTS does not have the "impact" that was seen when SCI original was transitioned to BW.
We believe it is impossible to change everything at once. SC1 original was not at the level of making e-sports grow and even BW needed many updates to perfect the balance.
In the early stages of SC2, the balance wasn't so bad. The developers are also trying implant small changes often instead of doing all at once. We have received several feedback indicatingthat HOTS isn't so much different from WoL. As a result, we reworked the design of many new units. For instance, widow mines are not consumable units but they do massive 160 damage. We are trying to change the metagame of HOTS to revolve around the new units.
Why does hellbat in HOTS given a biological armor? Isn't hellbat a mechanical unit?
In BW, firebats were rarely used. We only saw it once in a 100 games for example. We tried to make this unit a core part of the army. The reason why we added a biological armor is to allow hellbat to be used for two different purposes. In Thor/Tank composition, we wanted it to fight as hellion where as in bio force, we wanted it to fight as hellbat. When doing so, we realized that Hellbat could not get healed by medivacs and thus it was useless in terms of tanking. This is why we changed the armor to biological so that it can be healed by medviacs and act similar to marauders.
Another way we are currently thinking is to change the medviac so that it can heal both bio AND mechanic through different healing mechanism. Also we are thinking of preventing hellbats to change back to hellions. The change in armor types during transformation is an issue that needs more research.
There has been lot of balance talks in WoL. How are you going to address this in HOTS? Will we see new types of maps in HOTS?
To fix the balance issues, we initially started with new maps in HOTS. In the end, we think a mixture of both old maps and new maps is essential for balance. That is why we are trying to put 3 most balanced maps from WoL and 5 new maps from HOTS into the beta. It is not final, however.
Team games, especially in 4v4 ,we often see a dominance in pre-arranged team vs random team. How are you going to address this?
Regardless of the teams, the w/l ratio is still 50:50. We are looking into this, however. For instance, if we separate premade teams from random teams, the search time will increase significantly. If we mix them together, players will be stressed out but the games will start sooner. However, non-ranked system is being added, we believe that it is ok to have some stress during ranked ladder games.
Any DLC for SC2 to play SC1 campaigns?
Not bad. I will ask the developers.
Any words on global gateways system?
The battlenet will be similar to D3 where global plays are available. If it was possible, we would implant this right away in the beta. In Korea, there is law against gaming therefore we will release more information later.
Edit: Just skimmed over it. Looks like most of them are repetitions but there are some new questions. I will post the translation asap.
EDIT2: Finished. Not all questions have been translated. Only new questions!
On November 07 2012 08:11 Jarree wrote: David Kim: Hey Dustin, there's been a lot of feedback about broodlord-infestor again... Dustin Brown: Sshh Dave, can't you see i'm balancing these rocks! Just tell them it's 50-50!
LOL
QFT
Its seriously disappointing to hear that about BL-Infestor, especially after Hero's super bitter loss during MLG and Life's + Show Spoiler +
INTERESTING PLAYSTYLE?! HE BUILT FORTY FUCKING INFESTORS EVERY GAME
run through the same tournament. Also seems like they've decided against more WoL patches unless something is critically bad.
Or Terran finds another way to deal with T3 Zerg.
On the other side, HoTS seems pretty good. Even if the Warhound won't come back, changes to the Void Ray and Raven sound good. Very nice that they haven't given up adding another Terran unit to the game too.
On November 07 2012 07:45 Yorbon wrote: This thread has turned out to be very funny. I want to compliment plansix and yoshi kirishima on their useful contributions, though.
On the interviews: nothing strange really. I'm only a bit disappointed that they are not even considering changing the infestor. I mean, he said 'no direct nerfs', but there is very little to change the rooting ability without it being a nerf. I really hope they change something about it. But pretty positive about the rest of it
edit: the person above me had splendid timing.
Haha... thanks for shouting out to us.
Well, don't lose your hope, they've changed their minds many times before in interviews.
On November 07 2012 08:02 SarcasmMonster wrote: Can anyone translate the second interview please?
LOL the one with a name that implies un-serious posts brings up what maybe should be the most important topic right now. I totally forgot, will someone translate the second one? i hope to see more interesting information :D
On November 07 2012 10:41 coasts wrote: If they nerf BL/Infestor they're gonna have to buff zerg mid game otherwise zerg won't be able to beat toss.
Neither terran. That's the whole reason why they don't do it.
To be honest, even if the current lategame metagame for Zerg disgusts me, i prefer them working hard on HoTS (and they really need to imho) than on WoL. A balance fix wouldn't take that long for WoL, but it would take away time from HoTS even if it's only indirectly.
I have a huge problem with some of the rationale...
The wins portraits are already extremely accessible to everyone... just about anybody can get 1000 wins... all you have to do is be at least equal in skill to the worst player in the world and play 2000 games..
To say that they wanted to make rewards more accessible is untrue, and people need to quit kidding themselves. What they want, is to reward playing the game without ever trying to win. I'm not sure that's what's best, but I'll reserve judgement on that.
On November 07 2012 07:45 Yorbon wrote: This thread has turned out to be very funny. I want to compliment plansix and yoshi kirishima on their useful contributions, though.
On the interviews: nothing strange really. I'm only a bit disappointed that they are not even considering changing the infestor. I mean, he said 'no direct nerfs', but there is very little to change the rooting ability without it being a nerf. I really hope they change something about it. But pretty positive about the rest of it
edit: the person above me had splendid timing.
Thank you for the shout out sir. I do what I can. As Wheat says, "One troll at a time".
David Kim said: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
Would be awesome. Glad to see that they at least took at look at Tyler's idea. I'm always up for more micro, and really, who isn't?
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
You're... you're pretty dumb, aren't you? Liquid`NoNy is a professional player of SC2. He gets paid to play the game. That is what "professional", or "pro", means. Moreover, everything he said about the Carrier was accurate. The video was pure facts about mechanical Carrier functionality, with live demonstration. If you had bothered watching the video, you would know that if they took his suggestions into account, Carriers would become a far more entertaining unit to use and watch, with a higher micro ceiling and better lategame potential.
On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote: Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying.
There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous?
That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love.
If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine.
No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor.There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted.
The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races.
Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch.
OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses.
2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal.
Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions.
My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion.
As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset.
You have no idea how casual gamers think do you?
Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem.
Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time.
To add something about Dota vs SC:
Dota 2 is generally (in pub play) kind of a "once you've learned, you'll generally always know" game. (Like riding a bike, if you played enough to know the mechanics and most of the heroes, then it stays there).
There's no build others to memorize or crazy stuff that you need to know to get up to speed (oh no, he's 4gating, what DO I DO TO COUNTER THAT!) in pub play (captain's mode, maybe, but any other mode like all pick or single draft, there's no need to study since it's easy).
Also, people generally are "helpful" (AKA, they boss you around) in Dota 2 if you're not up to speed.
I haven't played Dota since like 3-4 years and when I played Dota 2, I caught up with what to do quickly (things like supports aren't supposed to get last hits for example - Darn, I can't try out my carry, win the game within 20 mins, Crystal Maiden anymore).
In SC2, it's different. If you don't know the latest build orders or what to do, then you're dead (4 gate in PvP is a really good example before the nerf to ramp vision and the +30 second to WG research time).
(Back when 4 gate was the thing for example - If you didn't know about 4 gate or the exact build other to use and do, you're dead. It doesn't matter what league you were in, since very few things countered or worked against 4 gate in PvP back then for example. You had to know the build order and the timing exactly or else you won't be able to counter or go against 4 gate in PvP.)
This isn't really the case for a game like Dota 2 - There might be an OP hero of the month but that's it. Generally in pub play, you don't really need to know much (you easily learn by playing, unlike SC2, where you might not be able to figure out PvP 4 gating unless you go on the forums or really analysis the replays multiple times). It's also helpful that you have teammates to remind you what you may need to do (I say may because not all advice from pubs are helpful, some people may just be plain snobs >.>).
SC2 really lacks that "learn by playing" foundation found in Dota 2.
Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
---
Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
You're... you're pretty dumb, aren't you? Liquid`NoNy is a professional player of SC2. He gets paid to play the game. That is what "professional", or "pro", means. Moreover, everything he said about the Carrier was accurate. The video was pure facts about mechanical Carrier functionality, with live demonstration. If you had bothered watching the video, you would know that if they took his suggestions into account, Carriers would become a far more entertaining unit to use and watch, with a higher micro ceiling and better lategame potential.
These interviews are very depressing. They show just how out of touch and clueless the designers for the game we want to love so much really are.
We seem to have this hope that HotS will revive interest and somehow fix the game to be able to played at a legitimate competitive level again. I don't really see how things are going to change much considering this ignorant attitude we see from the developers.
On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote: Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
This, and everytime we hear balance is 50/50 in a match-up. If that's the case, why have we had so many patches if win rates never get critical?
I'm absolutely speechless at how out of touch they really are. Its beyond me at this point. I'm just lost....lost for words, lost for reason, lost for any hope Blizzard has a square head on their shoulders.
They can go fuck themselves for as much as I care anymore.
Is there any race in particular that stands out in HOTS? Also, how are balance changes going to occur in HOTS?
Currently we are not at the stage of analyzing the racial balance. Instead, we are focusing on what to do with the new units that are being added. We are trying to make pro gamers recognize the potential of new units and use them more often in games. Having said that, we can't say which race is OP and which isn't. We think all new units are strong.
In WoL, Zerg seems to dominate lategame after hive tech. What are your thoughts on this and how are you going to address it? Also on the similar note, Terran's bio seems useless at the late game and the immortal/sentry all-in rush in PvZ seems really strong.
Looking at the overall tournaments, we believe that there is balance in pro-gaming level. Although we have been getting tons of feedbacks on Zerg being OP, if we take a look at last 10 major tournamets, racial distributions in players and winners are balanced. Although it may seemed that Zerg's late game is unbeatable, W/L ratio is still being balanced at 50:50. At this time we have to wait for new strategies from progamers.
Currently the most widely discussed unit is BL - Infestor combination.If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
Terran's Bio force are dominating in early and mid game. Considering the variety of metagame, we don't see any problem in this. In HOTS, we are going to make mech play more viable so that progamers can use both bio and mech depending on their characteristics.
Recently, the metagame demonstrated in large tournaments seem to be stable. We are speculating that this is due to players abusing certain metagame composition. What are your thoughts on this?
Yes, we are aware that this is happening but we believe that there are still variations among players. For e.g. TvZ, MKP will put more emphasis on bionic to take control of the mid to late game with micro. LG-IM's MVP will favor mechanic in this match up. However, we are aware that many players are using similar build and this issue is very difficult to touch upon in WoL. Without adding new units, we have to fix many other factors to prevent balance from collapsing. Thus we are going to address this issue in HOTS through new units.
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life. More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
Some of the changes from WoL to HOTS does not have the "impact" that was seen when SCI original was transitioned to BW.
We believe it is impossible to change everything at once. SC1 original was not at the level of making e-sports grow and even BW needed many updates to perfect the balance.
In the early stages of SC2, the balance wasn't so bad. The developers are also trying implant small changes often instead of doing all at once. We have received several feedback indicatingthat HOTS isn't so much different from WoL. As a result, we reworked the design of many new units. For instance, widow mines are not consumable units but they do massive 160 damage. We are trying to change the metagame of HOTS to revolve around the new units.
Why does hellbat in HOTS given a biological armor? Isn't hellbat a mechanical unit?
In BW, firebats were rarely used. We only saw it once in a 100 games for example. We tried to make this unit a core part of the army. The reason why we added a biological armor is to allow hellbat to be used for two different purposes. In Thor/Tank composition, we wanted it to fight as hellion where as in bio force, we wanted it to fight as hellbat. When doing so, we realized that Hellbat could not get healed by medivacs and thus it was useless in terms of tanking. This is why we changed the armor to biological so that it can be healed by medviacs and act similar to marauders.
Another way we are currently thinking is to change the medviac so that it can heal both bio AND mechanic through different healing mechanism. Also we are thinking of preventing hellbats to change back to hellions. The change in armor types during transformation is an issue that needs more research.
Edit: Just skimmed over it. Looks like most of them are repetitions but there are some new questions. I will post the translation asap.
Please wait for more updates!
Thank you for translating
incoming rage and QQ about how, even though they've revealed all these things that they are not satisfied at yet and will continue to look at, they don't listen/understand/fix anything ^^
And yeah, I definitely agree that the "50/50" excuse from the Blizzard design team is getting a little bit old. Surely, they must look at a lot of different factors, such as game length, maps, builds used, ect. It always just seems like a dirty excuse David Kim pulls out anytime someone asks him about balance.
Overall, I think HotS > WoL and they're definitely taking steps in the right direction, even if they are only baby steps.
I would, though, like to see Blizz make more BOLD strides with their balance changes. Not just minor number tweaks but experiment with things like pathing and reworking colossus/infestor. It's understandable that they don't want to take huge risks when the game is already so established but I personally think that it would pay off in the long run.
i'm happy they are thinking about nonys video. "In BW, firebats were rarely used. We only saw it once in a 100 games for example" wtf david... you have no idea what your talking about.
david kim wrote: However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
really?
Yeah that's painful to read. It's as if they don't watch games. It doesn't matter if win rates are even if when it gets to late game for any zerg match up the game is boring to watch. It is especially bad if the zergs game plan is to get to Brood Lord Infestor and to try and avoid any early/mid game attacks.
Kinda disappointed in Blizzard's answers about Broodlord/Infestor. Even though the matchup may be balanced, the game certainly isn't balanced past the 20th minute mark in PvT and PvZ. More importantly it isn't really fun; broodlord/infestor is a really boring combination, and fungal is especially anti-micro. Fungal is one of the most glaring conceptual design flaw in sc2 due to how boring it is.
I wont be buying HotS until I think its ready david Kim, so don't you just throw together a handful of new units, some stupid AI, new pictures and a stupid new UI. That is just simply not going to win my money david kim.
On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote: Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated.
On November 07 2012 11:51 TimeFlighT wrote: David Kim said firebats were only used 1 in 100 games?
What is he watching, fastest map possible NR20 games in Brood War?
That's what I was wondering. Sure they weren't used all game long but I saw firebats in tvz all the time as an early unit.
That second interview if medivacs can heal mech that would be stupid as well. In short hots isn't looking so exciting and I think zvp is going to remain the same boring match up as well .
On November 07 2012 11:51 TimeFlighT wrote: David Kim said firebats were only used 1 in 100 games?
What is he watching, fastest map possible NR20 games in Brood War?
it may easily have been a joke, remember this is a spoken interview, transcribed into korean, translated into english, some things will be lost or misinterpreted, or he may simply be exaggerating even if he's not joking X)
On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote: Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated.
The sad thing is that top, top notch Zergs are more than capable of winning with skill, good timings and good mechanics, without turtling to BL/Infestor, look at some of Life and Leenock's play this MLG, Zerg is my least favourite of the three races but I loved watching some of their play. I think the fallacy is that Infestors are seen to need to be as strong as they are because Zerg have 'no good units' when that isn't necessarily the case
On November 07 2012 11:51 TimeFlighT wrote: David Kim said firebats were only used 1 in 100 games?
What is he watching, fastest map possible NR20 games in Brood War?
That's what I was wondering. Sure they weren't used all game long but I saw firebats in tvz all the time as an early unit.
That second interview if medivacs can heal mech that would be stupid as well. In short hots isn't looking so exciting and I think zvp is going to remain the same boring match up as well .
Not a concern from my point of view. Firebats in BW are the reapers of SC2 - I don't have an issue with saying that "firebats were 1 in a 100 games" when the point is that firebats are only used in small numbers in the early game and not every game.
Interviews are heartening on the whole. Disappointing that they still consider overall balance of a matchup and not balance of a matchup at varying time periods in the game. For instance, PvZ may be statistically balanced - but when wonwonwon gets an insane percentage in the midgame and infestor/BL the same later on, that isn't a good balance.
From the second interview..... I'm speechless. He still think fungal is the only problem of infestor. So wrong, so wrong.
David Kim :"Looking at the overall tournaments, we believe that there is balance in pro-gaming level. Although we have been getting tons of feedbacks on Zerg being OP, if we take a look at last 10 major tournamets, racial distributions in players and winners are balanced.Although it may seemed that Zerg's late game is unbeatable, W/L ratio is still being balanced at 50:50. At this time we have to wait for new strategies from progamers.
Currently the most widely discussed unit is BL - Infestor combination.If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
Terran's Bio force are dominating in early and mid game. Considering the variety of metagame, we don't see any problem in this. In HOTS, we are going to make mech play more viable so that progamers can use both bio and mech depending on their characteristics. "
However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
I understand not wanting to release a balance patch before WCS or really any of the Nov tournaments, but to say BL-Infestor is not a big deal is a MASSIVE FACEPALM.
BL-Infestor will do tons of damage to SC2 e-sports interest if no balance patch is releasd in the next 1-2 months. HotS will hopefully change a lot of things up, but it looks like HotS is still a ways off before release.
On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote: Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated.
The sad thing is that top, top notch Zergs are more than capable of winning with skill, good timings and good mechanics, without turtling to BL/Infestor, look at some of Life and Leenock's play this MLG, Zerg is my least favourite of the three races but I loved watching some of their play. I think the fallacy is that Infestors are seen to need to be as strong as they are because Zerg have 'no good units' when that isn't necessarily the case
It is not about balance or skill. Zerg just have no additional early game path like 2rax-pressure-expand or forge-offensive cannons-expand with even game afterwards. The choice between taking 3rd early or bit later is pretty boring to watch every game.
To be honest though, I am KINDA speechless about the second interview's answers... It is kinda crazy. I wish they were more transparent about why they think that way - - like i wish we got to see all the stuff he sees (or at least more). to make that statement.
They should totally consider medivacs being able to heal both bio and mech and hellbat can be redesigned to an independent unit that incorporates some features from warhoud.
On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote: Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated.
The sad thing is that top, top notch Zergs are more than capable of winning with skill, good timings and good mechanics, without turtling to BL/Infestor, look at some of Life and Leenock's play this MLG, Zerg is my least favourite of the three races but I loved watching some of their play. I think the fallacy is that Infestors are seen to need to be as strong as they are because Zerg have 'no good units' when that isn't necessarily the case
It is not about balance or skill. Zerg just have no additional early game path like 2rax-pressure-expand or forge-offensive cannons-expand with even game afterwards. The choice between taking 3rd early or bit later is pretty boring to watch every game.
10 pools follow by eco doesn't seem to fall behind too much. 2 rax pressure falls behind as well. That is why you see most terrans double expand after which is very open to roach/bane counters.
Blah blah balance this balance that. Zerg didn't win a starleague until 4 years into BW's proscene but things turned out alright. Why? I'm guessing because the game was still fun to watch.
On November 07 2012 13:03 red4ce wrote: Blah blah balance this balance that. Zerg didn't win a starleague until 4 years into BW's proscene but things turned out alright. Why? I'm guessing because the game was still fun to watch.
Wow I did not know that. Good thing that didn't happen in sc2 for any race or my lord would the QQ still be ginormous for whichever race hadn't won a GSL by now xD
I'm honestly surprised he's making statements like "infestor broodlord is not a big deal" 2 weeks before their own tournament featuring nothing but PvZ all day everyday shows just how wrong they are.
On November 07 2012 12:51 trifecta wrote: It's not a question as to whether infestor/BL is/isn't OP or whether the match ups are all 50/50–it's simply boring to watch infestor/BL
Well, i guess its time to make another Orb post. Maybe we cant get Infestor Broodlord cut.
= P
Seriously though, it astounds me that they haven't commented on how Infestor Broodlord based play is extremely stale to watch, and these are the developers who thought that siege lines were stale to watch...
On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote: Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated.
The sad thing is that top, top notch Zergs are more than capable of winning with skill, good timings and good mechanics, without turtling to BL/Infestor, look at some of Life and Leenock's play this MLG, Zerg is my least favourite of the three races but I loved watching some of their play. I think the fallacy is that Infestors are seen to need to be as strong as they are because Zerg have 'no good units' when that isn't necessarily the case
It is not about balance or skill. Zerg just have no additional early game path like 2rax-pressure-expand or forge-offensive cannons-expand with even game afterwards. The choice between taking 3rd early or bit later is pretty boring to watch every game.
10 pools follow by eco doesn't seem to fall behind too much. 2 rax pressure falls behind as well. That is why you see most terrans double expand after which is very open to roach/bane counters.
10 pool ? Afaik it relevalent only if terran always plays low ground 14CC or 1rax low ground CC in BO5 or BO7. Pretty rare case. 2rax happens nearly in every BO5.
I'm going to look at the full half of the glass for a moment. They have thought about infestor-broodlord, and even made plans:
If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth.
--David Kim
I predict some or all of those changes will happen after WCS on the 17th (and if not then, perhaps after IPL5/GSL5 finals weekend). They will happen either because: a) the big tournaments have passed, so Blizzard will feel the timing is right to dabble in WoL balance changes again, or b) after those tournaments, the numbers will have shifted into zerg dominance. Blizzard will then happily hit their prepared nerf buttons.
On November 07 2012 13:50 Basique wrote: Bleurg infestor are not designed... I don't care about balance but fungal is such a shitty spell...
Yeah, I really don't see why it wouldn't still be viable as a slow effect rather than root, to me it makes much more sense anyway, especially for air units (I mean seriously if it's enough to stop them from moving they should fall to the ground). I'd at least like them to try it out in PTR so that we can see how it goes, somewhere from 50-80% seems reasonable.
I would also prefer if Broodlings from Broodlords didn't bug out the pathing, as it's frustrating to deal with and it's really not spectator friendly (IMO). Perhaps if the Broodlings hovered around their target so they did not obstruct pathing this would not be an issue and since they fly along with the Broodlords to begin with it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
These are two options I would really like to see tried, preferably both at the same time because we all know the Broodlord/Infestor combination is powerful and it should be for how expensive it is and how long it takes to get, so I suggest not nerfing it's raw power, but allowing the other races more freedom in trying to combat it.
On November 07 2012 13:36 Black[CAT] wrote: I've quit sc2 and returned to Dota 2, I weep for you guys and the Kespa pros future. Oh dear this interview.
Yeah I haven't played sc2 for months and switched to Dota 2. Barely watching any tournaments now either cause its the same boring Zerg train.
David Kim thinks that since the race w/l distribution is even, the game is balanced.
If T wins 100 % of its 11-11 and blue-flame hellion all-ins vs z, and z wins all games going past the 20 minute mark vs t, making for a 50-50 win ratio, does that mean tvz is balanced?
A measure of W/L vs total individual game time would be very interesting to see, both for pvz and tvz.
Since no sane person wants to play vs infestor/BL/corruptor, it makes for more cheese and more gimmicky strats (like 2fact BF hellion timings) etc. Neither that part, nor the Zerg steamroll part (infestor/BL stage) is fun to play or to watch. The game is fundamentally design flawed and needs rework, rather than a simple fix to infestor imo. But if nothing at all is done, more and more people are going to quit the game, which is not exactly favorable for Blizzard at a time when they are launching HOTS.
On November 07 2012 14:13 TiberiusAk wrote: I'm going to look at the full half of the glass for a moment. They have thought about infestor-broodlord, and even made plans:
If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth.
--David Kim
I predict some or all of those changes will happen after WCS on the 17th (and if not then, perhaps after IPL5/GSL5 finals weekend). They will happen either because: a) the big tournaments have passed, so Blizzard will feel the timing is right to dabble in WoL balance changes again, or b) after those tournaments, the numbers will have shifted into zerg dominance. Blizzard will then happily hit their prepared nerf buttons.
So Blizzard is deciding balance based on a couple of tournaments...someone better tell Taeja, MVP and Flash to start losing everything. Those guys play Terran right? I hope I didn't miss any other Terran players.
On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote: Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent. They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated.
The sad thing is that top, top notch Zergs are more than capable of winning with skill, good timings and good mechanics, without turtling to BL/Infestor, look at some of Life and Leenock's play this MLG, Zerg is my least favourite of the three races but I loved watching some of their play. I think the fallacy is that Infestors are seen to need to be as strong as they are because Zerg have 'no good units' when that isn't necessarily the case
It is not about balance or skill. Zerg just have no additional early game path like 2rax-pressure-expand or forge-offensive cannons-expand with even game afterwards. The choice between taking 3rd early or bit later is pretty boring to watch every game.
10 pools follow by eco doesn't seem to fall behind too much. 2 rax pressure falls behind as well. That is why you see most terrans double expand after which is very open to roach/bane counters.
10 pool ? Afaik it relevalent only if terran always plays low ground 14CC or 1rax low ground CC in BO5 or BO7. Pretty rare case. 2rax happens nearly in every BO5.
Why do you think that is? Because terrans know their advantage is in the early/mid game while zergs go more eco builds (fast third) because they have advantage in the late game.
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
yea OSL also had only 2 zergs in the OSL-proper, Round of 16. Only 1 made it to the round of 8 against like 5 protosses and 2 terrans. lol
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16.
Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it.
It should be done mathematically, and adjusted if needed from that baseline.
Then the community and Blizzard would clearly understand where the balance stands.
As it is today, balance is difficult to determine through all the various opinions, we need a transparent model that Blizzard and the community are clear about and can make suggestions about- based on a mathematical baseline.
On November 07 2012 12:51 trifecta wrote: It's not a question as to whether infestor/BL is/isn't OP or whether the match ups are all 50/50–it's simply boring to watch infestor/BL
Well, i guess its time to make another Orb post. Maybe we cant get Infestor Broodlord cut.
= P
Seriously though, it astounds me that they haven't commented on how Infestor Broodlord based play is extremely stale to watch, and these are the developers who thought that siege lines were stale to watch...
You're mixing things up, just because he believes that BL/infestor isn't "too" OP to nerf immediately without further investigating (thinking of ways to address different issues) doesn't mean he thinks it's fun or not stale. Haven't you seen the other interviews or even looked at HotS? They are trying to provide new ways to play (in this situation, it's not having to go BL/infestor all the time lategame, which is an immobile deathball kind of composition -- swarm hosts and speed hydras, for example, were showcased in a battle report, showing their intention of allowing more options). They obviously are aware of the BL/Infestor issues/complaints.
On November 07 2012 16:25 Parcelleus wrote: Blizzard should be able to prove balance.
Not just release patches and 'see what happens'.
It should be done mathematically, and adjusted if needed from that baseline.
Then the community and Blizzard would clearly understand where the balance stands.
As it is today, balance is difficult to determine through all the various opinions, we need a transparent model that Blizzard and the community are clear about and can make suggestions about- based on a mathematical baseline.
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16.
Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it.
I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches.
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16.
Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it.
I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches.
Totally agree. Just attempting to refute to the often raised "but GSL has Terrans so everything is fine" argument.
When David Kim talks balance he will speak of his sources - ladder, tournament results etc. but only speak of the win rates in match up that is being discussed. There is absolutely no reference to how the players are achieving the wins. For example, let's say that PvZ is 50%. Without looking any deeper this match up seems balanced, right? But if you look deeper and 75%+ of the Protoss win are from Protoss executing some derivative of the Parting 2-base Immortal push, and 75%+ of the Zerg wins are from turtling and massing Infestors and Broodlords it's not really balanced. It's just coin-flippy.
That is, if the Protoss 2-base Immortal push fails, they usually lose. Conversely, if the Zerg don't mass Infestors and Broodlords they usually lose. It just feels like a gross misunderstanding of how the games are currently being played out and looking on the surface (i.e. the win percentages) only.
There is way more to balance then looking at numbers. Even if (big if) infestor/broodlord is balanced it is not fun to watch or play, it encourages boring turtle style. David Kim needs to look past the numbers and at the actual qualitative data.
Balancing off numbers is easy, balancing the game play so it is fun to watch is harder.
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16.
Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it.
I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches.
Totally agree. Just attempting to refute to the often raised "but GSL has Terrans so everything is fine" argument.
When David Kim talks balance he will speak of his sources - ladder, tournament results etc. but only speak of the win rates in match up that is being discussed. There is absolutely no reference to how the players are achieving the wins. For example, let's say that PvZ is 50%. Without looking any deeper this match up seems balanced, right? But if you look deeper and 75%+ of the Protoss win are from Protoss executing some derivative of the Parting 2-base Immortal push, and 75%+ of the Zerg wins are from turtling and massing Infestors and Broodlords it's not really balanced. It's just coin-flippy.
That is, if the Protoss 2-base Immortal push fails, they usually lose. Conversely, if the Zerg don't mass Infestors and Broodlords they usually lose. It just feels like a gross misunderstanding of how the games are currently being played out and looking on the surface (i.e. the win percentages) only.
David Kim answered the question. Question was about nerfing infestors/broodlord. It is fail of forum whiners to admit what you just said. Forum whiners insist that infestor/broodlord are OP disregarding the fact of 50% win rates.
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16.
Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it.
I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches.
Totally agree. Just attempting to refute to the often raised "but GSL has Terrans so everything is fine" argument.
When David Kim talks balance he will speak of his sources - ladder, tournament results etc. but only speak of the win rates in match up that is being discussed. There is absolutely no reference to how the players are achieving the wins. For example, let's say that PvZ is 50%. Without looking any deeper this match up seems balanced, right? But if you look deeper and 75%+ of the Protoss win are from Protoss executing some derivative of the Parting 2-base Immortal push, and 75%+ of the Zerg wins are from turtling and massing Infestors and Broodlords it's not really balanced. It's just coin-flippy.
That is, if the Protoss 2-base Immortal push fails, they usually lose. Conversely, if the Zerg don't mass Infestors and Broodlords they usually lose. It just feels like a gross misunderstanding of how the games are currently being played out and looking on the surface (i.e. the win percentages) only.
David Kim answered the question. Question was about nerfing infestors/broodlord. It is fail of forum whiners to admit what you just said. Forum whiners insist that infestor/broodlord are OP disregarding the fact of 50% win rates.
I think he realizes that. There are other %s we can derive from games also, such as win %s at certain times of the game or on certain maps, etc. I highly doubt that the %s are in equilibrium within these other statistics; so my question is does Blizzard know about these stats and do they strive to balance the game around them? I feel like they've touched on it and acknowledged that certain races have an inherent advantage depending on the time and pace of the game, but are those balances correct right now? I think most players would argue they are not, given the evolution of the game and maps.
On November 07 2012 14:13 TiberiusAk wrote: I predict some or all of those changes will happen after WCS on the 17th (and if not then, perhaps after IPL5/GSL5 finals weekend). They will happen either because: a) the big tournaments have passed, so Blizzard will feel the timing is right to dabble in WoL balance changes again, or b) after those tournaments, the numbers will have shifted into zerg dominance. Blizzard will then happily hit their prepared nerf buttons.
WCS maybe since it's there tournament, but they've had no issue releasing patches days before a major tournament or match.
If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
I don't get how they don't see Broodlord / Infestor as a big deal. It makes me genuinely question if they are watching the same game as us. And even then, they have to question whether it's only in ZvT / ZvP or both. At the same time, does it even have to be
Terran's Bio force are dominating in early and mid game.
After the queen patch I really don't see this to be the case. Even with terran's playing extremely greedy, there army is always equal to zergs, I wouldn't ever say it is all that scary. Blizzard's decisions really confuse me. I agree with them that dynamic match ups are more intersting, at different points in the match up races should have varying strengths. I don't agree with a black and white case of it being strictly early / late game. I think the current TvZ meta shows what happens when the two races feel equal in stength. Personally, I found TvZ much more interesting when Zerg's had to fight for equal footing and they'd feel stronger at certain points such as high mutalisk count, after crushing a terran army, after getting Ultras / Broodlords out. And Terran had the same when they reached a certain number of Thor, when Zerg is taking a third, when there medivac count hits a certain point.
We are trying to change the metagame of HOTS to revolve around the new units.
Hoping that this is just lost in translation, and that it really just means they want the new units to be apart of the meta game, although that's a very obvious statement. I'd rather not see them try to influence the metagame by designing certain units a certain way, and instead just focus on creating intersting units with enough depth that the players will be able to use them heaps. Again though, seems like the paragraph this came from could just be lost in translation a bit.
Without adding new units, we have to fix many other factors to prevent balance from collapsing. Thus we are going to address this issue in HOTS through new units.
HotS and WoL aside, I'd rather see them focus on mixing up the meta game through changing current units to solve the problems. Look at the reasons why certain strategies have fallen out of favour and find consistent problems. Protoss lack various ways to take third bases, as anyway they take the third has to be safe from a 200/200 Roach flood. Terran need to not be overwhelmed by the zergs economy, but doesn't have many aggressive ways to do it, forcing economic builds, which also have to be safe against a potential Mass Bane / Ling / Muta attack thats come about since Zerg can be so greedy. And zerg are forced to use infestors in every match up, not because they are a good unit, they struggle immensely without them, and against a maxed out Protoss army, only Broodlord / Infestor is able to consistently beat it.
Blizzard seems to be ignoring or not focusing on the root of the problems. Instead they are trying to add new units to fix this. It's Blizzard game, so they are free to do what they want, and since they have to be so careful with what they say it's understandable they might not be able to say exactly what they want to, but these interviews always scare me as there design process seems really wonky, and it seems to reinforce the sterotype that Blizzard employees aren't watching the same game we are.
Put the translations in spoilers on the opening post please!
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life. More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question
On November 07 2012 17:17 Highways wrote: No offence but is David Kim an idiot?
There is way more to balance then looking at numbers. Even if (big if) infestor/broodlord is balanced it is not fun to watch or play, it encourages boring turtle style. David Kim needs to look past the numbers and at the actual qualitative data.
Balancing off numbers is easy, balancing the game play so it is fun to watch is harder.
I agree, but I doubt that that is David Kim's department. As far as I know, his job is to keep racial/unit balance in check, not to make changes that make them fun to play. Has to be someone else looking at that (and is falling behind on their job) :O
i just dont get it, how do you see if the game is balanced by looking at statistics? 50:50 as of now, i just dont see in what way this shows balance or none-balance. Seems ruggish to me! Its unlogic to look at the resault, isnt it? Iam serious
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life. More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question
Not surprising really. They have been balancing around Mvp for the past year or so.
On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote: so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
You're completely wrong on this one. Zergs have been dominating in Euro tournaments for a long time.
On November 07 2012 17:35 feanor1 wrote: Put the translations in spoilers on the opening post please!
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life. More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question
Not surprising really. They have been balancing around Mvp for the past year or so.
And around the strange fact that about 60% of GSL quarterfinalists to date are terrans.
On November 07 2012 17:35 feanor1 wrote: Put the translations in spoilers on the opening post please!
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life. More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question
Not surprising really. They have been balancing around Mvp for the past year or so.
And around the strange fact that about 60% of GSL quarterfinalists to date are terrans.
And other zergs besides Life are also showing better results this year. The focus will always be on the premiere players.
Recently Zerg has been dominating in WoL. Protoss players especially are complaining about it. Are you aware of this?
Yes, we are receiving tons of feedbacks regarding this. However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments. If we look at the race distribution, I don't think it's not that bad. However, I believe that there is flaw in the game design. For e.g. it is very hard to face late game zerg composition without mothership's vortex. Therefore in HOTS, we are trying to provide solutions by adding units like Tempest. We are aware of Zerg's dominance but we are waiting for more results to show up.
Many Protoss players have been complaining that it is impossible to deal with BL-Infestor combo. Some pro-players are suggesting that it is impossible to beat late game PvZ.
Yes we are aware that such issues are present. However in Starleague, Protoss players dominated against zerg players and considering other tournaments, PvZ is not completely one sided. There is a problem with the match up but we believe that it can be fixed through various patches. As for now, we should take time to decide wether this is a serious problem or not. If we believe that it is not an issue, balance updates will be focused on HOTS.
these set of of completely one sided and biased questions honestly make me face palm at the community. BL/infestor unbeatable? impossible to deal with?
how about the traditional toss deathball + mother ship being unbeatable and impossible to deal with unless we go BL infestor? ppl dont realize how unstable this match up really is. if zerg doesnt go BL infestor we straight up lose.
if u get 1 vortex off then zerg auto loses and vice versa for toss. the sad part about all this is that for zerg to win we need to use vortex, the enemies on spell, in order to win. its amazing how one sided people can be.
if zerg does not go BL/infestor in WoL currently there is no conceivable/viable way to deal with the toss army directly. what will we use? roaches? ultras? hydras rofl?
On November 07 2012 17:17 Highways wrote: No offence but is David Kim an idiot?
There is way more to balance then looking at numbers. Even if (big if) infestor/broodlord is balanced it is not fun to watch or play, it encourages boring turtle style. David Kim needs to look past the numbers and at the actual qualitative data.
Balancing off numbers is easy, balancing the game play so it is fun to watch is harder.
I think that blizzard should patch the game so that the meta game is heading in the right direction rather than sitting calmly at the monitor to see if there is a 50/50 winrate. The game, if you so will, of the designer is to make the game interesting which supersedes the balancing of the game.
I will give an alternative translation of what Mr. Kim said:
We are busy with HotS, enjoy the next six months of Zerg domination and boring PvZ, don't look at us for any changes until the expansion is released.
He should take another look at tournaments, GSL code S 8/9 zergs will probably stay in the RO16, only 1 zerg has dropped so far. Also, when watching the matches it is pretty clear that zerg has an edge in the late game. And also that the late game has pretty much replaced the mid-game, considering how safe it is these days to get a 3rd and just drone away.
On November 07 2012 18:42 Domus wrote: I will give an alternative translation of what Mr. Kim said:
We are busy with HotS, enjoy the next six months of Zerg domination and boring PvZ, don't look at us for any changes until the expansion is released.
He should take another look at tournaments, GSL code S 8/9 zergs will probably stay in the RO16, only 1 zerg has dropped so far. Also, when watching the matches it is pretty clear that zerg has an edge in the late game. And also that the late game has pretty much replaced the mid-game, considering how safe it is these days to get a 3rd and just drone away.
just stop... there is nothing clear about it. i really hate when ppl look at tournament results, especially results from only a 1 or 2 tournaments, and try to determine balance in that way just because a race wins. going off of tournament wins to balance a game is such a shit tier way to go about balancing a game imo.
On November 07 2012 18:42 Domus wrote: I will give an alternative translation of what Mr. Kim said:
We are busy with HotS, enjoy the next six months of Zerg domination and boring PvZ, don't look at us for any changes until the expansion is released.
He should take another look at tournaments, GSL code S 8/9 zergs will probably stay in the RO16, only 1 zerg has dropped so far. Also, when watching the matches it is pretty clear that zerg has an edge in the late game. And also that the late game has pretty much replaced the mid-game, considering how safe it is these days to get a 3rd and just drone away.
just stop... there is nothing clear about it. i really hate when ppl look at tournament results, especially results from only a 1 or 2 tournaments, and try to determine balance in that way just because a race wins. going off of tournament wins to balance a game is such a shit tier way to go about balancing a game imo.
I don't care if it is zerg, or terran, or protoss dominating. What I don't like is that Blizzard will not do a thing until HotS is released and I think that will be at least another 6-12 months. Also, 2 tournament? Go check liquipedia, check the Euro and Australian scene, and now also Korea. Also, anyone who has watched PvZ in the last couple of months can't say with a straight face there is no problem. The interviewer asked very specific questions about it, and Kim just said they are not going to do a thing.
If they just did make an infestor cost 3 supply, raven 3 or 4 and a broodlord 5 that would really fix so many things. The problem with lategame armies is not that they don't have the tools to deal with the zerg deathball, rather the fact that it's too cost efficient. David Kim doesn't see the problem because he doesn't know what to answer, pretty much for the same reason he canceled the Q&A on stage with progamers at IEM Cologne for no good reason. It's not so hard to fix this game, I wish they just had the right people at the job.
Can't wait till a Zergie is in need of a win and starts to use his oversupply ability with Zerg. And suddenly there are 10 more infestors. There is so much more potential to broodlords and infestors still that Zerg players don't abuse, that it makes this combination really scary. Just recently they started using infested terrans like crazy. I think with a nerf people will go away from this unit and won't show every problem it has. Some month ago almost no one would have seen Infested Terrans as a problem, because they weren't used. I just wish people would go all out with their unit control and not just do as much as they have to do in order to win. It often looks so inefficient and far from showing any balance problems.
Thanks alot for the translation, I like that they are slower with balance changes now and stopped changing balance because of one player, like they did before. Also thanks to the OP for bringing those interviews here.
They refuse to make changes.. are they even working? Are they blind? The game will not move forward like this, it will remain stagnant and hardly evolve into a exciting game. Watching no rush 15's all day isn't really what I want to watch, I want to see exciting builds done. Not both players forced to go into a macro game because that's all that is viable. Glad I quit this game at masters, or I would be so frustrated to keep playing this game.
Also, they hope that the new reaper/widow mine is enough for terran in the new expansion...? Do they even expect terrans to keep playing in the new expansion? Why should I pay for ONE NEW UNIT AND CRAP UPGRADES? Blizzard just keeps disappointing me more and more lately. First they release Diablo III which isn't even finished developing and it takes ages for it to be even appealing to keep playing. They are on the right tracks NOW, but it should've been on the right tracks in development and beta or it shouldn't have been released. Now they refuse to make changes to WoL, NOT EVEN ADD NEW MAPS TO THE CURRENT SEASON and sell an expansion which isn't worth the money?
I wish Starcraft was in the hands of a capable company like Riot or Valve, who actually is transparent with their customerbase and makes it more engaging for the playerbase to keep playing. They even promote their e-sports events, unlike the measly stuff Blizzard does.
I dont understant the argument with "stats are showing its 50:50". It might be but its the games themselves what is botherig us. Yes protoss can 2base allin like a baws and if zerg is cought off guard pull off win. Or zerg is not caught off guard defends turtle bl inf and win because there is no chance for P to do anything about it. Recently ive watched Stephano ladder and he didnt even bother attacking. He just kept expanding towards Protoss untill protoss gave up - there was nothing he could do. Probably the most BORING yet most SAFE (sad innit) games ive seen in while.
On November 07 2012 14:13 TiberiusAk wrote: I'm going to look at the full half of the glass for a moment. They have thought about infestor-broodlord, and even made plans:
If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth.
--David Kim
I predict some or all of those changes will happen after WCS on the 17th (and if not then, perhaps after IPL5/GSL5 finals weekend). They will happen either because: a) the big tournaments have passed, so Blizzard will feel the timing is right to dabble in WoL balance changes again, or b) after those tournaments, the numbers will have shifted into zerg dominance. Blizzard will then happily hit their prepared nerf buttons.
So Blizzard is deciding balance based on a couple of tournaments...someone better tell Taeja, MVP and Flash to start losing everything. Those guys play Terran right? I hope I didn't miss any other Terran players.
not really, but they seems to have caution about when to patch the game. we had stupid before finals patch before and blizzard got quite a bit flak for that. with a new finals coming every weekend, we gotta pick the right time to start ptr to net mess things up.
So disappointed with how they're treating WoL when the game is in one of its worst states ever. They were quite happy to directly nerf snipe/khaydarin amulet when it was becoming just too strong and is used every game, now that infestors and broodlords are exceeding that they say they're not nerfing it directly? This is like saying they're making a new game and abandoning WoL... Lets not forget that there's still a proscene with WoL and the games where we see Z in lategame is becoming unbelievably familiar each time... The immobility of infestors bl is not even an issue when they can walk the spores/spines and win any base trades anyway. Can we please at least make them bleed if they walk off creep? Infestors at 2 supply is just imba for a unit that casts a great spell and can create an army that don't cost supply, how can they not see that? Consider 3 supply infestors maybe?
Either way it seems to me like WoL is getting abandoned. At this rate I might just not buy HotS in protest of Blizzard's treatment for it's predecessor. No wonder people are saying Starcraft 2 is dying, Blizzard did a bad job with Diablo 3 and now is abandoning SC2 which everyone worked so hard on to make it an e-sport to rival the glory of BW. Just sad... I used to love Blizzard so much.
hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)
On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote: hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)
i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that.
On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote: hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)
i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that.
Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi
Wow great, these interviews give me even less hope for the future. Just because 1st place finishes seem balanced (which I don't think is true) does NOT mean that games are playing out in an ok fashion. And not doing anything about balance until HotS would be beyond awful.
Thanks a lot for the translations though. >_<
So many things said in these just don't make any sense... T_T
Not buying HotS is the best you can do, really. Why support a team that adds gimmicks instead of fundamentals to an adversarial multiplayer game, doesn't fix fundamental issues with the game? A team that leaves LAN out of the game? Because, you know, small local tournaments have never been one of the cornerstones of a naturally healthy community? Why support a team that is ever more clearly just goddamn blind?
Why support a team that turns the single-player campaign from a world-building three-factions-in-one epic into three separate things focused on stuff like moneyshot cinematics and overt focus on characters ("Who is Sarah Kerrigan?")? A team that doesn't care much for previous continuity?
Blizzard has never actually been great in making balanced multiplayer games. BW was an accident and tons of work by professional players playing ridiculous numbers of hours a day, supported by professional mapmakers. The thing Blizzard was always known for was building great (if not very original, but originality is grossly overrated) worlds and making good singleplayer campaigns. Stuff was polished and such. Those days are long gone. What do they do well anymore? I'd at least wait before buying HotS. Though I'd rather not buy it at all. Not because of some indignant boycotting (though nothing changes company behavior like a good ol' hit to the bottom line). But just because I don't want it. It feels wrong.
The leftover money is well spent - a few stupidly good burgers, a couple Magic decks (there's a very good all-commons tournament format nowadays), or, say, a basic Go board. At least a 3000 year old board game won't be patched anytime soon. Certainly not by giving Queens +2 range for no damn reason. Even if you dislike the free extra points white gets for going second, playing without those is at most 55-45 for black or so. And you still have to win with even tools instead of mass Infestors. There's a really good online client developing, too. And LAN. Hm. Sounds like an idea.
The more I read about hots the less i actually want to buy it. While they add a lot of features to the game that are needed for a lon time, they way they see the gamplay and what they want with it makes this game a dead birth... Let's face it, the game seems to become even more retarded than it already is. I does make fun to play it, but in the long run those design flaws take away most of the fun again...
On November 07 2012 21:43 Coffee Zombie wrote: Not buying HotS is the best you can do, really. Why support a team that adds gimmicks instead of fundamentals to an adversarial multiplayer game, doesn't fix fundamental issues with the game? A team that leaves LAN out of the game? Because, you know, small local tournaments have never been one of the cornerstones of a naturally healthy community? Why support a team that is ever more clearly just goddamn blind?
Why support a team that turns the single-player campaign from a world-building three-factions-in-one epic into three separate things focused on stuff like moneyshot cinematics and overt focus on characters ("Who is Sarah Kerrigan?")? A team that doesn't care much for previous continuity?
Blizzard has never actually been great in making balanced multiplayer games. BW was an accident and tons of work by professional players playing ridiculous numbers of hours a day, supported by professional mapmakers. The thing Blizzard was always known for was building great (if not very original, but originality is grossly overrated) worlds and making good singleplayer campaigns. Stuff was polished and such. Those days are long gone. What do they do well anymore? I'd at least wait before buying HotS. Though I'd rather not buy it at all. Not because of some indignant boycotting (though nothing changes company behavior like a good ol' hit to the bottom line). But just because I don't want it. It feels wrong.
The leftover money is well spent - a few stupidly good burgers, a couple Magic decks (there's a very good all-commons tournament format nowadays), or, say, a basic Go board. At least a 3000 year old board game won't be patched anytime soon. Certainly not by giving Queens +2 range for no damn reason. Even if you dislike the free extra points white gets for going second, playing without those is at most 55-45 for black or so. And you still have to win with even tools instead of mass Infestors. There's a really good online client developing, too. And LAN. Hm. Sounds like an idea.
Dont be stupid, the removal of LAN was decided way higher than just the Sc2 team.
Its pretty sad what DK said about Korean Players´ Feddback,but we all understand it well.Why should any korean Pro play HotS?? If you must play in the GSL or MLG,would you really play Hots? That why they need to make the BETA open,to allow reall players to use it and try it on every level.Almost 2 months an no BETA for me,but OK.I suppose Terran Platinum EU doesnt deserve it.
There are so few HotS streams from Pros...Cant you see it Blizzard? Just let the BETA open and we will give you the Feedback you need.
Saying that BL+infestor ist really a issue in ladder is just stupid.Why tournaments results are so even? Because its not the same playing BO3 or BO5 as ladder.In ladder you can go same BO 40 games in row and will never face the same enemy.So you can go BL Infestor or ling roach bust every single game.Players must use different BOs in every game to try to catch enemy offguard. When you see P smash T in late game,dont you ever ask you why is the P player going for 1 base blink next game? If he would gone same late game combo,would win the MU and maybe the tournament,but Pros learn quick and look for weakness,so if you go same BO next game,meybe the otrher is gonna cheese and win.Thats why tournaments dont really represent the meta game I think...
i dunno about raising the supply cost for zerg units, that just does not feel zergy to me (i am both a terran and zerg player, Hate protoss btw)
The right nerf to the Broodlord infestor corrupter is = little bit less damage from broodlord when it attacks, remove 1 armor from the corrupter and make infested terran be 35 energy instead of 25.
So much talk about PvZ... But what about TvZ? Terrans have exactly the same problems as Protosses and no one seems to care about it at all. What is more, in HotS, Zergs late game got buffed, while Terran is untouched. Fail, David Kim.
I agree that the "it's 50:50" response is a bit too short to really adress the problem..
let's leave out the actual win/loss statistics and believe DK in that they are 50:50
i feel one thing that they are overlooking, perhaps too much tunnelvision on w\l statistics.
BUT!!!
even if something has a 50:50 w/l that doesnt mean that its exciting. what are the actual win/loss rates for when the zerg actually gets to tech to this composition? let's say how many times does a zerg lose when hes got 20 infestors and 8 broodlords? THATS what they should be looking at...
not the overall win\loss records that they keep mentioning, perhaps all the losses from zerg are because protoss is doing nothing but immortal allins because they feel that is their only chance to win???
now youve got a 50:50 matchup (balanced? no!) not if its 100% win rate Immortal allin, and 100% winrate BL/infestor
of course i am exaggerating a little bit here but my point is the OVERALL win/loss percentages are not always a good indication of a balanced matchup.
On November 07 2012 21:02 Khai wrote: So disappointed with how they're treating WoL when the game is in one of its worst states ever. They were quite happy to directly nerf snipe/khaydarin amulet when it was becoming just too strong and is used every game, now that infestors and broodlords are exceeding that they say they're not nerfing it directly? This is like saying they're making a new game and abandoning WoL... Lets not forget that there's still a proscene with WoL and the games where we see Z in lategame is becoming unbelievably familiar each time... The immobility of infestors bl is not even an issue when they can walk the spores/spines and win any base trades anyway. Can we please at least make them bleed if they walk off creep? Infestors at 2 supply is just imba for a unit that casts a great spell and can create an army that don't cost supply, how can they not see that? Consider 3 supply infestors maybe?
Either way it seems to me like WoL is getting abandoned. At this rate I might just not buy HotS in protest of Blizzard's treatment for it's predecessor. No wonder people are saying Starcraft 2 is dying, Blizzard did a bad job with Diablo 3 and now is abandoning SC2 which everyone worked so hard on to make it an e-sport to rival the glory of BW. Just sad... I used to love Blizzard so much.
What? It may be much easier to balance the game with adding new units than balancing WoL, and then trying to fit in the new units again and thus maybe having to re-redesign units.
i don't understand, they're not abandoning SC2
also everyone was complaining about them nerfing stuff too quickly (amulet BFH thor) and now people like you are saying you want a faster fix, they can't please everyone
he also mentioned it's possible to nerf infestors directly... he didn't say he 100% won't
On November 07 2012 23:17 LOLingBuddha wrote: I agree that the "it's 50:50" response is a bit too short to really adress the problem..
let's leave out the actual win/loss statistics and believe DK in that they are 50:50
i feel one thing that they are overlooking, perhaps too much tunnelvision on w\l statistics.
BUT!!!
even if something has a 50:50 w/l that doesnt mean that its exciting. what are the actual win/loss rates for when the zerg actually gets to tech to this composition? let's say how many times does a zerg lose when hes got 20 infestors and 8 broodlords? THATS what they should be looking at...
not the overall win\loss records that they keep mentioning, perhaps all the losses from zerg are because protoss is doing nothing but immortal allins because they feel that is their only chance to win???
now youve got a 50:50 matchup (balanced? no!) not if its 100% win rate Immortal allin, and 100% winrate BL/infestor
of course i am exaggerating a little bit here but my point is the OVERALL win/loss percentages are not always a good indication of a balanced matchup.
i hope you understand what i am trying to say..
Remember that it may not be david's job to concentrate on that, since he is the balancer and browder is the designer/lead. And even past them, there are many other people working, and some may have conflicting views, thus making things take a while. Just be patient ^^
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate.
what the .... ???? I should stop because this guy does nothing but pissing me off.
On November 07 2012 01:02 wwowz wrote: We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
even if something has a 50:50 w/l that doesnt mean that its exciting. what are the actual win/loss rates for when the zerg actually gets to tech to this composition? let's say how many times does a zerg lose when hes got 20 infestors and 8 broodlords? THATS what they should be looking at...
OK, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that barring some outlier games, 50% of the time Zerg is unable to survive against Protoss until Hive and Toss wins, and 50% of the time, Zerg manages to get Infestor/Broodlord and Zerg wins.
The problem is, no one is talking about nerfing Protoss, everyone is on the "nerf Zerg" bandwagon. So let's say Blizzard finally gives the pitchfork mob what they want, and nerfs Infestors and Broodlords. Now 50% of the time Zerg dies before Hive like before, and when they do manage to survive and get Hive tech, they still die half the time, because the game is "balanced", the way people want it.
But wait, Infestors themselves are not Hive tech. Zerg still loses to Protoss if they just have Infestors and no Broodlords. Case in point, DRG vs Rain, where Rain won every game with a pre-Hive push. DRG had lots of Infestors, but no Broodlords, and the "oh-so-OP" Infestors, which, according to some very talented pro players, are all a Zerg needs to win tournaments and collect totally undeserved oversized checks, somehow failed to allow DRG to skillessly a-move his way to victory.
So if Infestors are nerfed like everyone wants them to be, Zerg probably can't even survive 50% of the time until Hive tech in the first place.
But the mob has their pitchforks and they've decided their new target. Infestors were it for a while, they got them nerfed, were satisfied for a while, until they chose Mutalisks as their new target. They got a hard hard counter for it, which it turned out they didn't even need. Then again Infestors became it. So I wonder, if Infestors are nerfed, and ZvP win rates dip into something like 30%, what will the new target be? Mutalisks again?
even if something has a 50:50 w/l that doesnt mean that its exciting. what are the actual win/loss rates for when the zerg actually gets to tech to this composition? let's say how many times does a zerg lose when hes got 20 infestors and 8 broodlords? THATS what they should be looking at...
OK, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that barring some outlier games, 50% of the time Zerg is unable to survive against Protoss until Hive and Toss wins, and 50% of the time, Zerg manages to get Infestor/Broodlord and Zerg wins.
The problem is, no one is talking about nerfing Protoss, everyone is on the "nerf Zerg" bandwagon. So let's say Blizzard finally gives the pitchfork mob what they want, and nerfs Infestors and Broodlords. Now 50% of the time Zerg dies before Hive like before, and when they do manage to survive and get Hive tech, they still die half the time, because the game is "balanced", the way people want it.
But wait, Infestors themselves are not Hive tech. Zerg still loses to Protoss if they just have Infestors and no Broodlords. Case in point, DRG vs Rain, where Rain won every game with a pre-Hive push. DRG had lots of Infestors, but no Broodlords, and the "oh-so-OP" Infestors, which, according to some very talented pro players, are all a Zerg needs to win tournaments and collect totally undeserved oversized checks.
So if Infestors are nerfed like everyone wants them to be, Zerg probably can't even survive 50% of the time until Hive tech in the first place.
But the mob has their pitchforks and they've decided their new target. Infestors were it for a while, they got them nerfed, were satisfied for a while, until they chose Mutalisks as their new target. They got a hard hard counter for it, which it turned out they didn't even need. Then again Infestors became it. So I wonder, if Infestors are nerfed, and ZvP win rates dip into something like 30%, what will the new target be? Mutalisks again?
Or perhaps... Hydralisks?????
Please dont get me wrong.. im not just pushing for a zerg CHANGE (notice i dont call it nerf ) in my post i can of alluded to the fact that the immortal sentry allin is or at least can be just as much of a problem for zerg as the infestor BL combo is to protoss.
my main point was simply to respond to the comment made by blizzard that the matchups enjoy about a 50:50 win/loss ratio.
while that may be true that is not a solid indicator of balance. if 50% of matches are won by toss through immo/sentry alllin or if 50% of zerg wins through infestor/BL.
again, im not saying only zerg should get changed. i wish i could offer a solution, but i admit that balancing something as complex as sc2 is something that is WAY out of my league..
On November 07 2012 23:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate.
what the .... ???? I should stop because this guy does nothing but pissing me off.
Boycott HotS y viva la revolucion <o/
Agreed. I don't understand how Blizzard-Activision is so.. unskilled, for lack of a better term.
again, im not saying only zerg should get changed. i wish i could offer a solution, but i admit that balancing something as complex as sc2 is something that is WAY out of my league..
And that is the problem, it's not as simple as nerfing Infestors and Broodlords like the pitchfork mob wants.
Let's look at another example, ZvT. Just look at the game between Mvp and DRG this season on Daybreak. DRG does a Muta/Ling semi-allin that does a ton of damage, just short of outright killing Mvp. When the dust is settled, DRG is on 4 bases with 70+ Drones vs Mvp on 2 with 30 SCVs. Mvp turtles hard, builds a mech army, and pushes out on 3 bases vs a maxed DRG on 5 bases. When the big exchange occurs, DRGs entire OP Broodlord Infestor army is wiped out, and 3-4 Siege tanks are still left for Mvp shelling DRGs 4th, but Mvp ggs out, because he has no economy, DRG has killed all the SCVs on his 3rd and denied mining and is about to remax.
Now imagine, DRGs army was nerfed, like the mob wants it to be. Mvp just crushes him instead of having only 3-4 siege tanks remaining, continues to push forward and kill off all his bases before he can remax, and rolls on to a victory, in a game where he was insanely behind. This would be "balanced" according to some...
For everyone arguing about DK just looking at the win-rates being ~50/50, and not accounting for the trend that Protoss/Terran get most of their wins before Zerg get's hive tech, and Zerg's get most of their wins once they get hive tech, I think they may be missing what DK is alluding to:
It sounds like they are expecting a meta-game shift where Zerg's play less economical in the early-mid game so as to be safer vs Terran and Protoss, and thus making their late-game weaker and/or come significantly later. Allowing Protoss and/or Terran to deal with the Zerg late game easier. (For example, it might just be that the Immortal/Sentry all in makes it so Zerg's can't go for the gasless 3 base style, leading to a completely different ZvP meta-game).
Do you feel like this is valid logic, or a reasonable expectation?
On November 08 2012 00:01 ZjiublingZ wrote: For everyone arguing about DK just looking at the win-rates being ~50/50, and not accounting for the trend that Protoss/Terran get most of their wins before Zerg get's hive tech, and Zerg's get most of their wins once they get hive tech, I think they may be missing what DK is alluding to:
It sounds like they are expecting a meta-game shift where Zerg's play less economical in the early-mid game so as to be safer vs Terran and Protoss, and thus making their late-game weaker and/or come significantly later. Allowing Protoss and/or Terran to deal with the Zerg late game easier. (For example, it might just be that the Immortal/Sentry all in makes it so Zerg's can't go for the gasless 3 base style, leading to a completely different ZvP meta-game).
Do you feel like this is valid logic, or a reasonable expectation?
absolutely makes sense, however, that doesnt necessarily mean that protoss will not be able to attain that IMBA composition, or that zerg wont be able to attain that IMBA composition.
i think situations shouldnt exist where (IF LEFT ALONE) that a zerg/terran or protoss is able to build what he wants and results in an unwinnable composition.
I am of the opinion that MAX army should be able to trade with a MAX army in relatively equal fashion.
let's take zerg as an example.. Zerg is supposed to be a "zergy" race. (lots of units overwhelming the opponents, while at the same time suffering comparatively many losses.) Zerg becomes one of the most cost efficient armies when they have xxx Infestors & xxx Broodlords. this is in my opinion not really what zerg means to me.. (but then again thats probably just me)
let's take protoss as an example.. Protoss is slower, heavy hitting armies. when teched to mothership things can get very dicy, no detection or sufficient anti-air to take out the mothership and it doesnt matter what composition you have, even if your army would decimate that protoss army if it had not had a mothership.
for terran... thats a tough one for me.. i am a random player but terran is my worst race. i have a feeling that terran has all the tools to take out anything, however, i feel a fast aggressive tech switch from a zerg could be extremely problematic.
so after writing all this out i think i have to come to the same conclusion as many other posts :D :D infestor & mothership = OP
i think terran is right where it should be, and some changes should be made to P and Z. although i do think T could use an extra unit in HoTs
On November 08 2012 00:01 ZjiublingZ wrote: For everyone arguing about DK just looking at the win-rates being ~50/50, and not accounting for the trend that Protoss/Terran get most of their wins before Zerg get's hive tech, and Zerg's get most of their wins once they get hive tech, I think they may be missing what DK is alluding to:
It sounds like they are expecting a meta-game shift where Zerg's play less economical in the early-mid game so as to be safer vs Terran and Protoss, and thus making their late-game weaker and/or come significantly later. Allowing Protoss and/or Terran to deal with the Zerg late game easier. (For example, it might just be that the Immortal/Sentry all in makes it so Zerg's can't go for the gasless 3 base style, leading to a completely different ZvP meta-game).
Do you feel like this is valid logic, or a reasonable expectation?
The win rate will always be near 50% on ladder. It is pretty obvious Zerg is dominating in tournament. There is absolutely no balance at the top level against Infestors broodlords. I don't even know how anybody can justify it. I keep doing 2-3 bases push on ladder nowadays. I love to play macro games and always tried to mimic hero style. I just got sicked of trying. PvT is a blast for me, early/mid game back and forth action and late game macro!
On November 07 2012 23:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate.
what the .... ???? I should stop because this guy does nothing but pissing me off.
Boycott HotS y viva la revolucion <o/
Yeah, I found that comment highly irritating. I am hoping that it was just a blunder.
Imagine if BW was balanced with this mode of thought? Bonjwa would have invoked super nerfs from Blizzard.
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Why do people think that SC2 race balance has anything to do with people leaving to play/watch a new game?
On November 07 2012 23:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate.
what the .... ???? I should stop because this guy does nothing but pissing me off.
Boycott HotS y viva la revolucion <o/
Agreed. I don't understand how Blizzard-Activision is so.. unskilled, for lack of a better term.
They might as well say "we're rigging the pro-scene results". That's disgusting :E
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Why do people think that SC2 race balance has anything to do with people leaving to play/watch a new game?
I don't think it is race balance as much as a dominate meta game which can get stale for viewers.
For me it's the deathball effect that makes it less interesting to watch. Sometimes it may as well be a "1 hero per side" moba. Protoss hits Q for FF, W for Storms, E for blink, and R for vortex.
On November 08 2012 00:38 Zorkmid wrote: For me it's the deathball effect that makes it less interesting to watch. Sometimes it may as well be a "1 hero per side" moba. Protoss hits Q for FF, W for Storms, E for blink, and R for vortex.
I think the main difference between Fungal and other spells is that other spells have some sort of uncertainty factor to them. It's like "will he get good FFs?" "Will his Templar be EMPed?" "Will that Nuke get spotted?"
With Fungal it's just like all the burden is on the other player to split absolutely perfectly or die rather than on the Zerg to do anything particularly clever.
On November 07 2012 23:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate.
what the .... ???? I should stop because this guy does nothing but pissing me off.
Boycott HotS y viva la revolucion <o/
Agreed. I don't understand how Blizzard-Activision is so.. unskilled, for lack of a better term.
They might as well say "we're rigging the pro-scene results". That's disgusting :E
Indeed, outcome based approaches on game balance is ridiculous.
On November 08 2012 00:01 ZjiublingZ wrote: It sounds like they are expecting a meta-game shift where Zerg's play less economical in the early-mid game so as to be safer vs Terran and Protoss, and thus making their late-game weaker and/or come significantly later. Allowing Protoss and/or Terran to deal with the Zerg late game easier. (For example, it might just be that the Immortal/Sentry all in makes it so Zerg's can't go for the gasless 3 base style, leading to a completely different ZvP meta-game).
Do you feel like this is valid logic, or a reasonable expectation?
No, I think it's bullshit. If you've been watching the metagame, you should have noticed that the trend is to getting *earlier* brood lords, not delaying them.
A year ago, 17' was the standard for getting BLs+infestors.
Nowadays, Zergs have gotten better at scouting and knowing whether they're safe or not. And at delaying Protoss, by dropping a shitton of spines and doing run-bys, or even sacrificing their entire army. The first brood lords start morphing at 15' behind a strong lings/infestors army, spine wall and insane economy.
I've recently seen some pro games where the first brood lords were starting morphing at the 13' minute mark.
The better Zergs become, the earlier they can get their brood lords/infestors combo.
There's also a difference between the sentries/immortals all-in, and the late game BLs+infestors combo. With the sentries/immortals all-in, the fate of Zerg is in its own hands. It's hard, but it's mostly a matter of anticipating long enough in advance, and not under-estimating ( nor over-estimating ) the push. And engaging in an open space at the right time.
Once the BLs+infestors combo is out, Protoss has to rely on a lucky vortex or major mistake engagement from Zerg. There isn't much to be done here. It's too late, our fate is no longer in our hands.
And it's understandable. If you open a replay in this situation and check army values ( in minerals and gas worth ) you'll notice that Zerg's army is x1.5 to x2's worth of Protoss.
The whole unbalance problem comes from that IMO: when maxed, armies do not have comparable worth. It is currently not possible with Protoss ground/gate units to find a combo that can rival Zerg's army. Even if we had all the resources and time of the world to get those units out, it's a unit design/composition restriction at the core of the game.
Carriers + archons + templars can actually rival the worth of a BL+infestor army, but here the problem is transition, so I won't enter into this debate. There's no ground army compo that can stand on its own against BL+infestors, that's all I want to say.. and it's a problem.
even if something has a 50:50 w/l that doesnt mean that its exciting. what are the actual win/loss rates for when the zerg actually gets to tech to this composition? let's say how many times does a zerg lose when hes got 20 infestors and 8 broodlords? THATS what they should be looking at...
OK, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that barring some outlier games, 50% of the time Zerg is unable to survive against Protoss until Hive and Toss wins, and 50% of the time, Zerg manages to get Infestor/Broodlord and Zerg wins.
The problem is, no one is talking about nerfing Protoss, everyone is on the "nerf Zerg" bandwagon. So let's say Blizzard finally gives the pitchfork mob what they want, and nerfs Infestors and Broodlords. Now 50% of the time Zerg dies before Hive like before, and when they do manage to survive and get Hive tech, they still die half the time, because the game is "balanced", the way people want it.
But wait, Infestors themselves are not Hive tech. Zerg still loses to Protoss if they just have Infestors and no Broodlords. Case in point, DRG vs Rain, where Rain won every game with a pre-Hive push. DRG had lots of Infestors, but no Broodlords, and the "oh-so-OP" Infestors, which, according to some very talented pro players, are all a Zerg needs to win tournaments and collect totally undeserved oversized checks, somehow failed to allow DRG to skillessly a-move his way to victory.
So if Infestors are nerfed like everyone wants them to be, Zerg probably can't even survive 50% of the time until Hive tech in the first place.
But the mob has their pitchforks and they've decided their new target. Infestors were it for a while, they got them nerfed, were satisfied for a while, until they chose Mutalisks as their new target. They got a hard hard counter for it, which it turned out they didn't even need. Then again Infestors became it. So I wonder, if Infestors are nerfed, and ZvP win rates dip into something like 30%, what will the new target be? Mutalisks again?
Or perhaps... Hydralisks?????
Problem with that is that a ton of the protoss wins come from an all-in (immortal sentry). In general, all-ins tend to be easier in being figured out and beaten over time; they might be extremely popular at one point but in the long term they won't be a reliable way to win games.
Look at all the other 2 base all-ins that P has thrown at Z in the history of PvZ, eventually people just get enough practice against that kind of play that they are only used once in a while, rather than forcing a matchup to revolve around them.
That said yes, it's possible that if infestor/broodlord is nerfed, a buff to the Zerg midgame will be necessary. No matter what that buff is though, it would likely not help vs immortal/sentry since that build hits before any tech (except hydras i suppose) can ready in time.
Also Nyast, please show me games with 13 minute broodlords. Off a 9 minute infestation pit, the fastest possible is like 14.50 i think.
On November 08 2012 00:01 ZjiublingZ wrote: It sounds like they are expecting a meta-game shift where Zerg's play less economical in the early-mid game so as to be safer vs Terran and Protoss, and thus making their late-game weaker and/or come significantly later. Allowing Protoss and/or Terran to deal with the Zerg late game easier. (For example, it might just be that the Immortal/Sentry all in makes it so Zerg's can't go for the gasless 3 base style, leading to a completely different ZvP meta-game).
Do you feel like this is valid logic, or a reasonable expectation?
No, I think it's bullshit. If you've been watching the metagame, you should have noticed that the trend is to getting *earlier* brood lords, not delaying them.
A year ago, 17' was the standard for getting BLs+infestors.
Nowadays, Zergs have gotten better at scouting and knowing whether they're safe or not. And at delaying Protoss, by dropping a shitton of spines and doing run-bys, or even sacrificing their entire army. The first brood lords start morphing at 15' behind a strong lings/infestors army, spine wall and insane economy.
I've recently seen some pro games where the first brood lords were starting morphing at the 13' minute mark.
The better Zergs become, the earlier they can get their brood lords/infestors combo.
There's also a difference between the sentries/immortals all-in, and the late game BLs+infestors combo. With the sentries/immortals all-in, the fate of Zerg is in its own hands. It's hard, but it's mostly a matter of anticipating long enough in advance, and not under-estimating ( nor over-estimating ) the push. And engaging in an open space at the right time.
Once the BLs+infestors combo is out, Protoss has to rely on a lucky vortex or major mistake engagement from Zerg. There isn't much to be done here. It's too late, our fate is no longer in our hands.
And it's understandable. If you open a replay in this situation and check army values ( in minerals and gas worth ) you'll notice that Zerg's army is x1.5 to x2's worth of Protoss.
The whole unbalance problem comes from that IMO: when maxed, armies do not have comparable worth. It is currently not possible with Protoss ground/gate units to find a combo that can rival Zerg's army. Even if we had all the resources and time of the world to get those units out, it's a unit design/composition restriction at the core of the game.
Carriers + archons + templars can actually rival the worth of a BL+infestor army, but here the problem is transition, so I won't enter into this debate. There's no ground army compo that can stand on its own against BL+infestors, that's all I want to say.. and it's a problem.
I wanted to reinforce the above point
And it's understandable. If you open a replay in this situation and check army values ( in minerals and gas worth ) you'll notice that Zerg's army is x1.5 to x2's worth of Protoss.
It would be broken if, as a protoss, you could take a current ground army and crush a composition of ~20-25 infestors and 20 brood lords, but in a delayed max vs max situations, economics fail to apply because you are stuck at the supply cap, and the supply efficiency of 4 supply brood lords and 2 supply infestors with chain fungals or 8 IT's per infestor is insane. Its one of the biggest problems of the composition.
If he dedicates 50 supply of his max to infestors (and he can and will sack drones for spine crawlers if he has enough money to do this) and then he uses 10 of those infestors for fungals only, the other 30 supply of them can create 120 infested terrans near instantly. I dont think most people can comprehend the power of that.
This is what army value looks like when toss is maxed on a stalker based composition and zerg has sacked everything for Infestor, Broodlord, Spines:
"Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate."
Was this translated correctly? Didnt he mean to say "Balance patches shouldnt be made..."
He cant possible be saying that they will patch the game if a single player dominates to hard. Thats Ridiculous. But now that i think about it looks like they actually have balanced the game around Mvp's dominance.
On November 08 2012 00:58 Fjodorov wrote: "Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate."
Was this translated correctly? Didnt he mean to say "Balance patches shouldnt be made..."
He cant possible be saying that they will patch the game if a single player dominates to hard. Thats Ridiculous. But now that i think about it looks like they actually have balanced the game around Mvp's dominance.
I dont think so. Terrans got a lot of flak for being overly popular at GSL and the strongest at high level play for quite a while, but honestly that was a mixture of popularity and the race being overtuned at first. People have said it was one or the other, but both are big factors, i think
On November 08 2012 00:58 Fjodorov wrote: "Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate."
Was this translated correctly? Didnt he mean to say "Balance patches shouldnt be made..."
He cant possible be saying that they will patch the game if a single player dominates to hard. Thats Ridiculous. But now that i think about it looks like they actually have balanced the game around Mvp's dominance.
Yes I just rechecked the interview. Let me re-translate/phrase it for you.
"In terms of balance changes, they should be made when a race becomes too strong due to a single progamer or due to a single strategy."
On November 08 2012 00:52 Teoita wrote: Also Nyast, please show me games with 13 minute broodlords. Off a 9 minute infestation pit, the fastest possible is like 14.50 i think.
I'd like to find it back, but I forgot who was in that match. It was a couple weeks ago, so before the MLG. If I remember well, the Protoss had taken a fast third, and Zerg did a standard 3-hatch no-gas, and timed his infestation pit to start just after the lair, and then dropped his spire at the exact second he started hive. This resulted in one of the smoothest teching I've ever seen in a Zerg build. And the first brood lords starting at 13'.
On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote: hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)
i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that.
Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi
I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll.
Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened? I mean, you did read the post i was quoting, right?
On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote: hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)
i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that.
Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi
I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll.
Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened?
He's free to do whatever he wants with his time, you know.
On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote: hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)
i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that.
Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi
I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll.
Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened?
He's free to do whatever he wants with his time, you know.
No, if you post on teamliquid it means you absolutely have no time to practice during the day. The two things just don't fit together.
On November 08 2012 00:52 Teoita wrote: Also Nyast, please show me games with 13 minute broodlords. Off a 9 minute infestation pit, the fastest possible is like 14.50 i think.
I'd like to find it back, but I forgot who was in that match. It was a couple weeks ago, so before the MLG. If I remember well, the Protoss had taken a fast third, and Zerg did a standard 3-hatch no-gas, and timed his infestation pit to start just after the lair, and then dropped his spire at the exact second he started hive. This resulted in one of the smoothest teching I've ever seen in a Zerg build. And the first brood lords starting at 13'.
Holy shit that's greedy (and easily exploitable) :O. I guess it was played on Entombed?
On November 07 2012 01:02 wwowz wrote: Warhound is removed from HOTS. We heard that there will be completely new unit being added.
We were going to add new units for Terran but currently we believe that reapers, hellbets and widow mines are sufficient in HOTS. Adding back warhound, or adding a new unit is not yet being considered.
On November 07 2012 02:51 n0ise wrote: "However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments"
Biggest troll ever, gj
Is it a troll?
They are probably looking at GSL and OSL results mostly...
The GSL that a Zerg just won? Or the current one where half the Ro16 is Zerg? Or all the WCS events outside Korea, or the last few MLGs, or NASL, or DH Bucharest...
If he's suggesting Zerg isn't winning most things right now, he's out of his mind.
On November 07 2012 10:26 wwowz wrote: Why does hellbat in HOTS given a biological armor? Isn't hellbat a mechanical unit?
In Thor/Tank composition, we wanted it to fight as hellion where as in bio force, we wanted it to fight as hellbat.
What the fuck!? Didn't they say they added the hellbat to make mech more viable? So they want it to be a new bio unit? And are even considering disallowing it to transform it back so it becomes a non-flexible/boring unit again???
LOL bl/infestor its not a problem, its a VERY expensive army and therefore should be as good. a lot of terrans are playing in such a horrible way, they seem to be stuck in the "we must throw away units early game" thinking.
On November 07 2012 21:11 Creager wrote: hm, iirc, didn't they nerf the ghost/snipe predominantely on MVP's dominace making use of it?! Also don't buy this 'tournament results are balanced' crap :/ What's accurate about a few players consistently showing good results in terms of overall balance? Would be excited to finally see a raven buff make it through (but for WoL as well, please)
i thought the ghost nerf was because it is unwanted that 1 units counters every t3 zerg unit. The infamous snipe scroll was one of the reasons for that.
Afaik infestor counters every single unit except siege tanks and colossi
I was never against an infestor nerf. Also, i never heard of a fungal scroll.
Oh, shouldn't you be practicing, instead of making quasi-clever comments on a forum as a reaction to someone explaining why a nerf happened? I mean, you did read the post i was quoting, right?
There is an infested terran scroll
Fungal isn't the only problem. One infestor can provide simply too much firepower with Infested Terrans considering Infestors are only 2 supply. +3 Infested Terrans do more damage than +3 unstimmed marines, that's a problem when they don't cost supply.
On November 08 2012 02:54 NEEDZMOAR wrote: LOL bl/infestor its not a problem, its a VERY expensive army and therefore should be as good. a lot of terrans are playing in such a horrible way, they seem to be stuck in the "we must throw away units early game" thinking.
Bullshit reasoning. Zerglings beat Thors. Marines / Stalkers beat air. Broodlords without support suck yet they are expensive. The synergy between infestor and Broodlord is simply unreal.
The more I hear from David Kim the more I become convinced that he's in over his head.
It isn't a matter of him not understanding BL/Infestor is OP, it's a matter of him somehow not understanding key concepts. People want the game to be fun - this means one race shouldn't rely on a gimmicky spell (vortex), one race shouldn't have a massive advantage at one point in the game or another (mid-game sentry/immortal or late game BL/Infestor). These things may result in "balance" in terms of win rates, but they create a boring to play and boring to watch game. Kim doesn't seem to understand this concept. We just want things to be fun.
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
I have not heard that. From my understanding, DK is reasonable at SC2, but like most people with full time jobs, does not have the time to invest always be in masters league.
This should not be shocking to anyone. Most professional coaches, individual or team based, are lack even 10% the skill of the athletes they coach. The people writing the rules for any of the professional sports leagues are rarely, if ever, former or current professional athletes. People’s ability to understand the interworking and nuances of a specific subject is not, nor ever has been, directly related to their ability to perform said task. It is a poor, flawed, argument that the Blizzard staff is under qualified to balance SC2 because they are not better than the majority of the community.
I said it before and I will say it again, Blizzard will not even talk about adjusting the balance of the game until after the Blizzard World Cup, which is 10 days away. People are getting exactly what they asked for a year ago, for Blizzard to be more involved, to patch with the consideration of tournaments and to wait before making balance changes.
About terran in HotS: Seriously, just give the terrans another new unit. It has to feel like an expantion, not a patch. Protoss and zerg are getting more units, so theres a reason for them to transfer to HotS, meanwhile terrans will stay in WoL or stop playing.
A new unit is needed for mech AA for instance. Much like the pre-beta warhound or the goliath. Thor just doesn't cut it.
Why won't they just remove thor and introduce warhound as mini thor as it was originally planned. Thor is such boring unit with the most useless spell ever. Warhound would cost half of the thor and would have half the stats besides movements speed which would be increased a bit (siege tank speed). That way it isnt allin unit that you can never retreat with.
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
I have not heard that. From my understanding, DK is reasonable at SC2, but like most people with full time jobs, does not have the time to invest always be in masters league.
This should not be shocking to anyone. Most professional coaches, individual or team based, are lack even 10% the skill of the athletes they coach. The people writing the rules for any of the professional sports leagues are rarely, if ever, former or current professional athletes. People’s ability to understand the interworking and nuances of a specific subject is not, nor ever has been, directly related to their ability to perform said task. It is a poor, flawed, argument that the Blizzard staff is under qualified to balance SC2 because they are not better than the majority of the community.
I said it before and I will say it again, Blizzard will not even talk about adjusting the balance of the game until after the Blizzard World Cup, which is 10 days away. People are getting exactly what they asked for a year ago, for Blizzard to be more involved, to patch with the consideration of tournaments and to wait before making balance changes.
The rumor I heard doesn't contradict your view. By inhouse games I meant inhouse games within the balance / design team.
On November 08 2012 03:30 Tomasy wrote: Why won't they just remove thor and introduce warhound as mini thor as it was originally planned. Thor is such boring unit with the most useless spell ever. Warhound would cost half of the thor and would have half the stats besides movements speed which would be increased a bit (siege tank speed). That way it isnt allin unit that you can never retreat with.
I would go on the same point. Remove the Thor and put the Goliath and a balanced version of the Warhound into the game. The Goliath like in BW as the ground to air unit that specific hits large targets and the warhound as anti mech support unit. The Warhound should be a unit that you put into the mix to have a support unit against mechanical protoss/terran units but not as dominant as it was, that you mass it against everything. Then it would be ok to have some micro non-intensive units in the mix, if it's not possible to max out on them efficiantly.
This would help both mech and bio/mech compositions.
On November 08 2012 03:30 Tomasy wrote: Why won't they just remove thor and introduce warhound as mini thor as it was originally planned. Thor is such boring unit with the most useless spell ever. Warhound would cost half of the thor and would have half the stats besides movements speed which would be increased a bit (siege tank speed). That way it isnt allin unit that you can never retreat with.
I would go on the same point. Remove the Thor and put the Goliath and a balanced version of the Warhound into the game. The Goliath like in BW as the ground to air unit that specific hits large targets and the warhound as anti mech support unit. The Warhound should be a unit that you put into the mix to have a support unit against mechanical protoss/terran units but not as dominant as it was, that you mass it against everything. Then it would be ok to have some micro non-intensive units in the mix, if it's not possible to max out on them efficiantly.
This would help both mech and bio/mech compositions.
I'd agree but make it the same cost and tech (or higher tech) as thor to give terran a good lategame unit....
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
I have not heard that. From my understanding, DK is reasonable at SC2, but like most people with full time jobs, does not have the time to invest always be in masters league.
This should not be shocking to anyone. Most professional coaches, individual or team based, are lack even 10% the skill of the athletes they coach. The people writing the rules for any of the professional sports leagues are rarely, if ever, former or current professional athletes. People’s ability to understand the interworking and nuances of a specific subject is not, nor ever has been, directly related to their ability to perform said task. It is a poor, flawed, argument that the Blizzard staff is under qualified to balance SC2 because they are not better than the majority of the community.
I said it before and I will say it again, Blizzard will not even talk about adjusting the balance of the game until after the Blizzard World Cup, which is 10 days away. People are getting exactly what they asked for a year ago, for Blizzard to be more involved, to patch with the consideration of tournaments and to wait before making balance changes.
The rumor I heard doesn't contradict your view. By inhouse games I meant inhouse games within the balance / design team.
Your post does, however, imply that the DK’s and the balance team’s ability to play SC2 does how diminish their ability to understand the game, as it is in response to a post that says just that.
And, although my second statement is purely opinion, the first part of my post is factual information. People need to stop hiding behind the argument that they are better at SC2 than the Blizzard employees and therefore could design the game better. It is a terrible argument that falls apart the moment it is challenged.
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
I have not heard that. From my understanding, DK is reasonable at SC2, but like most people with full time jobs, does not have the time to invest always be in masters league.
This should not be shocking to anyone. Most professional coaches, individual or team based, are lack even 10% the skill of the athletes they coach. The people writing the rules for any of the professional sports leagues are rarely, if ever, former or current professional athletes. People’s ability to understand the interworking and nuances of a specific subject is not, nor ever has been, directly related to their ability to perform said task. It is a poor, flawed, argument that the Blizzard staff is under qualified to balance SC2 because they are not better than the majority of the community.
I said it before and I will say it again, Blizzard will not even talk about adjusting the balance of the game until after the Blizzard World Cup, which is 10 days away. People are getting exactly what they asked for a year ago, for Blizzard to be more involved, to patch with the consideration of tournaments and to wait before making balance changes.
The rumor I heard doesn't contradict your view. By inhouse games I meant inhouse games within the balance / design team.
Your post does, however, imply that the DK’s and the balance team’s ability to play SC2 does how diminish their ability to understand the game, as it is in response to a post that says just that.
And, although my second statement is purely opinion, the first part of my post is factual information. People need to stop hiding behind the argument that they are better at SC2 than the Blizzard employees and therefore could design the game better. It is a terrible argument that falls apart the moment it is challenged.
I agree. Luckily, Blizzard's approach to balance can be derided on the grounds that they've made some pretty awful decisions that have resulted in a stagnating metagame. Whether or not I can do better is irrelevant. I don't need to be able to design a spaceship to say that when one explodes at takeoff someone dropped the ball.
The metagame in PvZ and TvZ is frankly appalling, and their refusal to make immediate changes is disgusting, but only because they have shown in the past that they WILL make immediate changes to things they feel are a problem. Either their entire design philosophy has changed or they really think that the metagame is fine. And the latter point of view is just ridiculous.
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
I have not heard that. From my understanding, DK is reasonable at SC2, but like most people with full time jobs, does not have the time to invest always be in masters league.
This should not be shocking to anyone. Most professional coaches, individual or team based, are lack even 10% the skill of the athletes they coach. The people writing the rules for any of the professional sports leagues are rarely, if ever, former or current professional athletes. People’s ability to understand the interworking and nuances of a specific subject is not, nor ever has been, directly related to their ability to perform said task. It is a poor, flawed, argument that the Blizzard staff is under qualified to balance SC2 because they are not better than the majority of the community.
I said it before and I will say it again, Blizzard will not even talk about adjusting the balance of the game until after the Blizzard World Cup, which is 10 days away. People are getting exactly what they asked for a year ago, for Blizzard to be more involved, to patch with the consideration of tournaments and to wait before making balance changes.
The rumor I heard doesn't contradict your view. By inhouse games I meant inhouse games within the balance / design team.
Your post does, however, imply that the DK’s and the balance team’s ability to play SC2 does how diminish their ability to understand the game, as it is in response to a post that says just that.
And, although my second statement is purely opinion, the first part of my post is factual information. People need to stop hiding behind the argument that they are better at SC2 than the Blizzard employees and therefore could design the game better. It is a terrible argument that falls apart the moment it is challenged.
Look at the very first post by Optik that started this chain of responses
I'm implying that DK rarely "feels the pain" given who he usually plays with.
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
I have not heard that. From my understanding, DK is reasonable at SC2, but like most people with full time jobs, does not have the time to invest always be in masters league.
This should not be shocking to anyone. Most professional coaches, individual or team based, are lack even 10% the skill of the athletes they coach. The people writing the rules for any of the professional sports leagues are rarely, if ever, former or current professional athletes. People’s ability to understand the interworking and nuances of a specific subject is not, nor ever has been, directly related to their ability to perform said task. It is a poor, flawed, argument that the Blizzard staff is under qualified to balance SC2 because they are not better than the majority of the community.
I said it before and I will say it again, Blizzard will not even talk about adjusting the balance of the game until after the Blizzard World Cup, which is 10 days away. People are getting exactly what they asked for a year ago, for Blizzard to be more involved, to patch with the consideration of tournaments and to wait before making balance changes.
The rumor I heard doesn't contradict your view. By inhouse games I meant inhouse games within the balance / design team.
He used to be GM random on NA. At least in the first year or so of SC2. Last I heard or saw (I may have looked at his account; I can't remember) a couple of seasons ago he was random Master with not many games logged which is not surprising. With HotS in the works and his other roles, I don't think he'd have the time to log sufficient number of games on ladder. He used to be, and probably still is, a high level player - compared to most of the SC2 population, that is.
They didn't say that at all -- infact, they're merely repeating what they said following the queen patch. They're going to give Terran ample opportunity to crack this metagame before resorting to the final and most extreme measure, which is patching the game.
They could change it next month for all you know, lol.
They didn't say that at all -- infact, they're merely repeating what they said following the queen patch.
That would mean waiting 2 months - so not exactly this year. And the final effect would still be a suggested 10% raven speed buff that is retracted the moment MVP beats a zerg. I doubt that's the answer people were hoping for.
On November 08 2012 01:36 OpTiKDream wrote: david kim seriously has to play terran at a competent level, not watch terrans. He has to feel the pain, not watch it.
Maybe he only plays inhouse games? From what I heard Blizz's other employees suck so hard no one takes games of him often.
I have not heard that. From my understanding, DK is reasonable at SC2, but like most people with full time jobs, does not have the time to invest always be in masters league.
This should not be shocking to anyone. Most professional coaches, individual or team based, are lack even 10% the skill of the athletes they coach. The people writing the rules for any of the professional sports leagues are rarely, if ever, former or current professional athletes. People’s ability to understand the interworking and nuances of a specific subject is not, nor ever has been, directly related to their ability to perform said task. It is a poor, flawed, argument that the Blizzard staff is under qualified to balance SC2 because they are not better than the majority of the community.
I said it before and I will say it again, Blizzard will not even talk about adjusting the balance of the game until after the Blizzard World Cup, which is 10 days away. People are getting exactly what they asked for a year ago, for Blizzard to be more involved, to patch with the consideration of tournaments and to wait before making balance changes.
FIrst of all David Kim is a former GM player. Prob midmaster or so right now.
Anyway, this is a commong myth. Unless you are the worlds smartest/analytical/logical person, you don't really understand the game properly unless you been in similar situations thousands of times. I've talked to al ot of players who think they understand the game because they listen to Artosis/day 9/"studies" the game etc... But in reality, they have a really superficial understanding of the game, and there are so many factors they do not think about because they have not been in the same situation in a real game.
U don't understand why you cannot create your own name for games? Why can't the UI be like last time, simple and str8 forward. I find it too fanciful now, and nobody use it.
On November 08 2012 08:12 Zaurus wrote: U don't understand why you cannot create your own name for games? Why can't the UI be like last time, simple and str8 forward. I find it too fanciful now, and nobody use it.
Agreed. Earlier today I wanted to message a guy I played 10 minutes ago. It took me a minute and a half to find recent matches. The UI isn't getting better. It's just getting more convoluted.
They didn't say that at all -- infact, they're merely repeating what they said following the queen patch.
That would mean waiting 2 months - so not exactly this year. And the final effect would still be a suggested 10% raven speed buff that is retracted the moment MVP beats a zerg. I doubt that's the answer people were hoping for.
It's the answer everyone was waiting for a year and a half before this surfaced: Blizzard giving the game more time before patching it. No more knee-jerk thor nerfs.Sucks they patched the queen before they did it, but otherwise it's one of the best decisions they've made since launch. Either way, they already said they'll patch it if it's actually just broken and no one can figure it out.
Really sad after reading their stance about balance.
If infestor is truely the backbone of zerg and should be the unit that they get every game vs any opposition, then I guess SC2 is losing alot of appeal to me.
I always though basic units are the backbone, and tech choices later on are choices...
Furthermore their way of looking at the balance is only looking at winrates. Did it ever occur to them, that intra-race balance is an important part? Casuals like to do something different in each of theiur daily games. Pro players play must be diverse to be interesting. If 90% of the game are more less the same, it gets very boring (even if balance is 50/50).
Isn't one of the major fun points about LoL the wealth of choice regarding what champion you choose? Why is SC2 limiting choice so much. Why are you forced into colossus, mothership, infestor and brood lords?
On November 09 2012 04:23 testthewest wrote: Really sad after reading their stance about balance.
If infestor is truely the backbone of zerg and should be the unit that they get every game vs any opposition, then I guess SC2 is losing alot of appeal to me.
I always though basic units are the backbone, and tech choices later on are choices...
Furthermore their way of looking at the balance is only looking at winrates. Did it ever occur to them, that intra-race balance is an important part? Casuals like to do something different in each of theiur daily games. Pro players play must be diverse to be interesting. If 90% of the game are more less the same, it gets very boring (even if balance is 50/50). Isn't one of the major fun points about LoL the wealth of choice regarding what champion you choose? Why is SC2 limiting choice so much. Why are you forced into colossus, mothership, infestor and brood lords?
You can't compare LoL to SC2 in this regard where SC2 has three static races versus LoL's perpetually expanding champion base. Variety in SC2 comes in the form of new maps and an evolving metagame -- which is gonna flip on it's head when HotS hits.
Huh, IMO those answers all were interesting. I'm not sure what people were expecting; devs will almost never fully commit to balance decisions before they're out, because the internet is full of rabid forum posters who will pounce on every word and then rail about how the decision wasn't exactly as stated when it was talked about months ago.
From a Terran perspective, the talk about Hellbats and Medivacs in the second interview was particularly interesting. I've wondered for a while now what they were going to do about the weird bio-tagged Hellbats, and both removing the transformation and having Hellbats be fully separate units (hopefully redoing the art some in the process), and/or making Medivacs auto-repair, sound like logical progressions to account for the gameplay choices they obviously want to keep with the Hellbat being heal-able.
Side note: if they're going to make Hellbats into a separate unit, hopefully they also come up with a new name. Combining Hellion and Firebat doesn't make as much sense at that point.
They obviously don't want a major balance patch anywhere in the vicinity of their world championships. After the tournament is over it is more likely they will take a hard look at balance.
I cant believe they still are not acknowledging the flaw of fungal growth completely negating micro. This is so infuriating. I love this game so much, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to continue to enjoy it. When I first started playing I was watching streams every day, but as time has gone on it is just not as enjoyable. I really do hope they make some more changes. I think what they have done thus far is good, but its only the tip of the ice berg in terms of what really needs to be done. For me it isnt even a question of switching to LoL or DotA 2 either, I just want an amazing RTS game.
Blizz need to really help with the mirror matches. They are all pretty boring to me. That is why i like the warhound. we need an anti seige tank vs ground unit. If blizz takes out auto cast, makes infestors 3 supply, and make fungal only slow, and do the reduced damage, just over a long time. I mean, what are the only spells that do aoe, and damage. HSM, storm, and fungal. HSM is too expensive, storm, u can run away from, but can do good damage. ANd fungal. fungal does a lot of damge, and trops all micro what so ever.
On November 09 2012 04:23 testthewest wrote: Really sad after reading their stance about balance.
If infestor is truely the backbone of zerg and should be the unit that they get every game vs any opposition, then I guess SC2 is losing alot of appeal to me.
I always though basic units are the backbone, and tech choices later on are choices...
Furthermore their way of looking at the balance is only looking at winrates. Did it ever occur to them, that intra-race balance is an important part? Casuals like to do something different in each of theiur daily games. Pro players play must be diverse to be interesting. If 90% of the game are more less the same, it gets very boring (even if balance is 50/50). Isn't one of the major fun points about LoL the wealth of choice regarding what champion you choose? Why is SC2 limiting choice so much. Why are you forced into colossus, mothership, infestor and brood lords?
You can't compare LoL to SC2 in this regard where SC2 has three static races versus LoL's perpetually expanding champion base. Variety in SC2 comes in the form of new maps and an evolving metagame -- which is gonna flip on it's head when HotS hits.
The way HOTS is looking right now I really doubt that, lol. They're not being bold enough...at all.
Also, to testthewest what you're saying really isn't true. A standard metagame is established over time, and then refined. Occasionally something will happen that will turn this on its head, but in general there's a standard way to play and then there are deviations...
This will always happen...A player needs to have a REASON for change...especially a pro...
as a sc2 fan and someone who will not buy hots in its current form
dustin browder and david need to leave as soon as possible. if you are bad at this game, you cannot balance it. dayvie does not play anymore and he is mid master NA skill level now, balancing this game for players that are grandmaster.. not to mention code a+. ok..
The forum majority here seems to be more concerned about PvZ than TvZ which is interesting to me. As a former random player (was 1k + pt at my "height" of random play, now i only play terran), i always felt like pvz was much easier. in pvz, you can get decently ahead on upgrades because of chronoboost as well as the fact that you just generally start a forge upgrade pretty early in this mu, and there is always vortex + archons to kill large brood numbers.
imho if you are playing vs a gm or pro level zerg, tvz is 10x more frustrating.
the days of your first 4 hellion runby and killing 20 drones are over, zergs now blindly make 10 lings around 6:45 because why not? you can hit 70 drones in 8 min (with 4g mining and 2 evos done), why overdrone like a noob and lose the game? yes instead zergs are now actually creating units periodically (esp the good ones) which makes the race seem unbreakable sometimes. why expand rapidly "have one more base than the terran" when it just hurts you? it is an extra area to defend, and on 3 bases you can make an infestor brood army that is devastating.. now they just wait, and slowly but surely move their deathball around and suck the resources from the bases one or two at a time and take no real "risks."
i dont mean to knock on anyone that i mention (youre all great playerS) but i have seen some of the foreigner pros like EG Suppy, VortiX, Dimaga get a decent economy and then fall apart from harass, but come back, taking 1 base at a time and simply never attacking in zvp/zvt. this is not to diss these players, its the way Z is designed, it is just so frustrating and can feel rigged at times
Buff Swarm Hosts? Ok buff the unit but not the Locusts.. ... Man I don't like how he balances that game at all, I can say he is not good at balancing, a lot of the good ideas come from the community or the others who help with the balance.
Actually buffing the Swarm Host itself is fine - more life or higher speed but Locust need a NERF! In huge numbers added + mass infestors all over the map, I see how many units of yours fall from
20 LoCUSTS then another 20 Locusts then another 20 Locusts until you reach the Swarm Hosts
I've played with Mech and it seems Mech can fall easily. Blue flame upgraded Hellions die like flies to Locusts??? Summon unit kills so fast? Few focus fire on Tanks by locusts that reach the tanks - you lose tanks too... It's as if free summoned Hydralisk damage on your units... Swarm Hosts + Infestors + Corruptors... nc
Bio is the way vs Zerg, they killed MECH completely. After removing Warhound rather than fixing him... And since WoL in TvT it is often seen Bio > Mech, cause of the heal.
sc2 is my first and probably last RTS game ever. I love it more than any game ive played, but interviews like this; current and future (from what ive seen from beta) state of game is making me really sad. All i can say is that they are killign the game, theres "nothing" new and it will definetly not be more fun. If i watch and play DotA2 EVERY SINGLE THING they add to the game is just right; the lobby, the obsing, hell even the new "automated" message saying. Its just right and step into right direction. I dont recall for past two years in sc2 when i could say "yes this is good, i like this change and i can see others like it too".
On November 09 2012 04:23 testthewest wrote: Really sad after reading their stance about balance.
If infestor is truely the backbone of zerg and should be the unit that they get every game vs any opposition, then I guess SC2 is losing alot of appeal to me.
I always though basic units are the backbone, and tech choices later on are choices...
Well David Kim did say they were trying to nerf the infestor and buff hydra/muta as alternative midgame options, so there's that.
This is just more news that will detract me from buying HotS. No addition to Terran. And it has taken way too long for something to be done with the infestor.
Am I the only one who is completely uninterested in anything david kim or dustin browder have to say anymore? Every time one of these interviews comes up they say the exact same thing every time about brood lord/infestor that everyone has heard over and over again yet every single time these interviews comes up there is a ton of people saying "Oh, I'm interested to hear what David Kim has to say about this!" NO! You dumb mother fucker there is no new opinion, it's the same thing every time.
On November 10 2012 17:03 Serenity12 wrote: I cant believe they still are not acknowledging the flaw of fungal growth completely negating micro. This is so infuriating. I love this game so much, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to continue to enjoy it. When I first started playing I was watching streams every day, but as time has gone on it is just not as enjoyable. I really do hope they make some more changes. I think what they have done thus far is good, but its only the tip of the ice berg in terms of what really needs to be done. For me it isnt even a question of switching to LoL or DotA 2 either, I just want an amazing RTS game.
well, some of us dont acknowledge fungal growth completely negating micro either. it induces micro more because of how dangerous it can be. if its not as powerful as it is, armies would just plow through, not relying on much micro. btw, they are testing projectile fungal too. i dont know where you got the completely ignoring part from.
I think they are missing the mark with the balance in HOTS so badly....
The infestor / WOL composition still comlpetely roflstomps ALL matchups, ALL unit compositions. The Tempest is so unbearably slow and epensive it just feels like a slightly better carrier- all zerg has to do is make more infestors and chain fungal like before :/
The infestor is soo strong that there is currently no reason at all to make any of the new units in HOTS, since you can destroy all the protoss and terran new units with infestor / roach / ling and then infestor / brood.
In a perfect would, infestor should cost 3 supply in HOTS and fungal should be an expensive upgrade. It just costs so little for what power it has, and no one is going to use any othe runits until then.
Can someone edit the title so it doesn't say new? Not a really good word choice for a thread title imo... that coupled with my semi-retardation has caused me to open this topic multiple times in the past weeks thinking there might be a new interview I haven't read, lol.
On November 30 2012 10:16 malaan wrote: I think they are missing the mark with the balance in HOTS so badly....
The infestor / WOL composition still comlpetely roflstomps ALL matchups, ALL unit compositions. The Tempest is so unbearably slow and epensive it just feels like a slightly better carrier- all zerg has to do is make more infestors and chain fungal like before :/
The infestor is soo strong that there is currently no reason at all to make any of the new units in HOTS, since you can destroy all the protoss and terran new units with infestor / roach / ling and then infestor / brood.
In a perfect would, infestor should cost 3 supply in HOTS and fungal should be an expensive upgrade. It just costs so little for what power it has, and no one is going to use any othe runits until then.
No, it's completely different from the Carrier entirely, and accomplishes the Carrier role much better vs that particular position. Reason being that for infestors to fungal destroys it. The entire reason PvZ is such a shithole is that the protoss cannot engage a Zerg, so the Zerg can sit back and build up. The entire premise of the Tempest is to force the Zerg to engage the Protoss, which COMPLETELY changes things. If the Infestors now want to fungal the tempests, they have to go through tempest range to do so - and what's stopping the tempests from running back? So it forces Zerg to commit or retreat in this case, which really alters the playing field, especially due to the fact positioning is huge for the zerg AND the fact that Zerg can't hide behind the spine crawler line, which has an ungodly negative impact lategame ZvP imo.
They didn't say that at all -- infact, they're merely repeating what they said following the queen patch.
That would mean waiting 2 months - so not exactly this year. And the final effect would still be a suggested 10% raven speed buff that is retracted the moment MVP beats a zerg. I doubt that's the answer people were hoping for.
It's the answer everyone was waiting for a year and a half before this surfaced: Blizzard giving the game more time before patching it. No more knee-jerk thor nerfs.Sucks they patched the queen before they did it, but otherwise it's one of the best decisions they've made since launch. Either way, they already said they'll patch it if it's actually just broken and no one can figure it out.
I think the Queen nerf was one of the worst changes ever made.... :S. It's pidgeonholed Terran's options, for different reasons than many presume. It's completely killed other builds such as Reaper openings and 2rax openings (12/14, not 11/11), NOT only for the reason the early pressure is denied easily like many claim, but imo because the options no longer permit the denial of creep spread. Reapers used to deny creep for a while, now it's useless at near the start. So if you open reaper, all of a sudden the creep spread is at your main in an instant because you can't maintain a map presence to stop it because everything else is delayed. Same with 2rax, which used to be able to camp your marines somewhat outside the nat, now queens are too strong once you can get like 4 (and you can't even camp outside the nat until four then retreat really because they can still micro against you and pick off weakened marines, especially when used in conjunction with slowlings which cause you to stutter step).
This is coming from someone who's two main openings were 2rax (12/14) and reaper expand, which I rarely use anymore unless in friendly Bo3s. Tried to continue using them for months after the Queen buff but the difference is night and day.