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On November 07 2012 12:57 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 12:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 07 2012 12:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2012 12:02 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote:
Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent.
They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again. Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated. The sad thing is that top, top notch Zergs are more than capable of winning with skill, good timings and good mechanics, without turtling to BL/Infestor, look at some of Life and Leenock's play this MLG, Zerg is my least favourite of the three races but I loved watching some of their play. I think the fallacy is that Infestors are seen to need to be as strong as they are because Zerg have 'no good units' when that isn't necessarily the case It is not about balance or skill. Zerg just have no additional early game path like 2rax-pressure-expand or forge-offensive cannons-expand with even game afterwards. The choice between taking 3rd early or bit later is pretty boring to watch every game. 10 pools follow by eco doesn't seem to fall behind too much. 2 rax pressure falls behind as well. That is why you see most terrans double expand after which is very open to roach/bane counters.
10 pool ? Afaik it relevalent only if terran always plays low ground 14CC or 1rax low ground CC in BO5 or BO7.
Pretty rare case. 2rax happens nearly in every BO5.
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Bleurg infestor are not redesigned... I don't care about balance but fungal is such a shitty spell...
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I'm going to look at the full half of the glass for a moment. They have thought about infestor-broodlord, and even made plans:
If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. --David Kim
I predict some or all of those changes will happen after WCS on the 17th (and if not then, perhaps after IPL5/GSL5 finals weekend). They will happen either because:
a) the big tournaments have passed, so Blizzard will feel the timing is right to dabble in WoL balance changes again, or
b) after those tournaments, the numbers will have shifted into zerg dominance. Blizzard will then happily hit their prepared nerf buttons.
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On November 07 2012 13:50 Basique wrote:
Bleurg infestor are not designed... I don't care about balance but fungal is such a shitty spell...
Yeah, I really don't see why it wouldn't still be viable as a slow effect rather than root, to me it makes much more sense anyway, especially for air units (I mean seriously if it's enough to stop them from moving they should fall to the ground). I'd at least like them to try it out in PTR so that we can see how it goes, somewhere from 50-80% seems reasonable.
I would also prefer if Broodlings from Broodlords didn't bug out the pathing, as it's frustrating to deal with and it's really not spectator friendly (IMO). Perhaps if the Broodlings hovered around their target so they did not obstruct pathing this would not be an issue and since they fly along with the Broodlords to begin with it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
These are two options I would really like to see tried, preferably both at the same time because we all know the Broodlord/Infestor combination is powerful and it should be for how expensive it is and how long it takes to get, so I suggest not nerfing it's raw power, but allowing the other races more freedom in trying to combat it.
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I'm pretty disappointed that HOTS won't change the matchups towards balanced game design, and not just strictly 50:50 win balance.
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On November 07 2012 13:36 Black[CAT] wrote:
I've quit sc2 and returned to Dota 2, I weep for you guys and the Kespa pros future.
Oh dear this interview.
Yeah I haven't played sc2 for months and switched to Dota 2. Barely watching any tournaments now either cause its the same boring Zerg train.
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Something that needs to be further emphasized:
David Kim thinks that since the race w/l distribution is even, the game is balanced.
If T wins 100 % of its 11-11 and blue-flame hellion all-ins vs z, and z wins all games going past the 20 minute mark vs t, making for a 50-50 win ratio, does that mean tvz is balanced?
A measure of W/L vs total individual game time would be very interesting to see, both for pvz and tvz.
Since no sane person wants to play vs infestor/BL/corruptor, it makes for more cheese and more gimmicky strats (like 2fact BF hellion timings) etc. Neither that part, nor the Zerg steamroll part (infestor/BL stage) is fun to play or to watch. The game is fundamentally design flawed and needs rework, rather than a simple fix to infestor imo. But if nothing at all is done, more and more people are going to quit the game, which is not exactly favorable for Blizzard at a time when they are launching HOTS.
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On November 07 2012 14:13 TiberiusAk wrote:I'm going to look at the full half of the glass for a moment. They have thought about infestor-broodlord, and even made plans: Show nested quote +If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. --David Kim I predict some or all of those changes will happen after WCS on the 17th (and if not then, perhaps after IPL5/GSL5 finals weekend). They will happen either because: a) the big tournaments have passed, so Blizzard will feel the timing is right to dabble in WoL balance changes again, or b) after those tournaments, the numbers will have shifted into zerg dominance. Blizzard will then happily hit their prepared nerf buttons.
So Blizzard is deciding balance based on a couple of tournaments...someone better tell Taeja, MVP and Flash to start losing everything. Those guys play Terran right? I hope I didn't miss any other Terran players.
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On November 07 2012 13:42 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 12:57 vthree wrote:On November 07 2012 12:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 07 2012 12:14 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 07 2012 12:02 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote:
Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent.
They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again. Yeah, zergs should have some early all in options too. Skillwalls are so outdated. The sad thing is that top, top notch Zergs are more than capable of winning with skill, good timings and good mechanics, without turtling to BL/Infestor, look at some of Life and Leenock's play this MLG, Zerg is my least favourite of the three races but I loved watching some of their play. I think the fallacy is that Infestors are seen to need to be as strong as they are because Zerg have 'no good units' when that isn't necessarily the case It is not about balance or skill. Zerg just have no additional early game path like 2rax-pressure-expand or forge-offensive cannons-expand with even game afterwards. The choice between taking 3rd early or bit later is pretty boring to watch every game. 10 pools follow by eco doesn't seem to fall behind too much. 2 rax pressure falls behind as well. That is why you see most terrans double expand after which is very open to roach/bane counters. 10 pool ? Afaik it relevalent only if terran always plays low ground 14CC or 1rax low ground CC in BO5 or BO7. Pretty rare case. 2rax happens nearly in every BO5.
Why do you think that is? Because terrans know their advantage is in the early/mid game while zergs go more eco builds (fast third) because they have advantage in the late game.
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so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
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On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs!
MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals.
GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
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On November 07 2012 15:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs! MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals. GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
yea
OSL also had only 2 zergs in the OSL-proper, Round of 16.
Only 1 made it to the round of 8 against like 5 protosses and 2 terrans.
lol
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There's actually something wrong with this guy.
When no one starts playing the game maybe he'll realise.
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On November 07 2012 15:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs! MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals. GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16.
Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it.
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Blizzard should be able to prove balance.
Not just release patches and 'see what happens'.
It should be done mathematically, and adjusted if needed from that baseline.
Then the community and Blizzard would clearly understand where the balance stands.
As it is today, balance is difficult to determine through all the various opinions, we need a transparent model that Blizzard and the community are clear about and can make suggestions about- based on a mathematical baseline.
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awww thanks wwowz for translating. Very good job man
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On November 07 2012 13:30 MasterCynical wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 12:51 trifecta wrote:
It's not a question as to whether infestor/BL is/isn't OP or whether the match ups are all 50/50–it's simply boring to watch infestor/BL Well, i guess its time to make another Orb post. Maybe we cant get Infestor Broodlord cut. = P Seriously though, it astounds me that they haven't commented on how Infestor Broodlord based play is extremely stale to watch, and these are the developers who thought that siege lines were stale to watch...
You're mixing things up, just because he believes that BL/infestor isn't "too" OP to nerf immediately without further investigating (thinking of ways to address different issues) doesn't mean he thinks it's fun or not stale. Haven't you seen the other interviews or even looked at HotS? They are trying to provide new ways to play (in this situation, it's not having to go BL/infestor all the time lategame, which is an immobile deathball kind of composition -- swarm hosts and speed hydras, for example, were showcased in a battle report, showing their intention of allowing more options). They obviously are aware of the BL/Infestor issues/complaints.
On November 07 2012 16:25 Parcelleus wrote:
Blizzard should be able to prove balance.
Not just release patches and 'see what happens'.
It should be done mathematically, and adjusted if needed from that baseline.
Then the community and Blizzard would clearly understand where the balance stands.
As it is today, balance is difficult to determine through all the various opinions, we need a transparent model that Blizzard and the community are clear about and can make suggestions about- based on a mathematical baseline.
And what level of math would allow that?
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On November 07 2012 16:25 Netsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 15:59 blade55555 wrote:On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs! MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals. GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though). While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16. Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it.
I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches.
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Are these cocks going to add an 'invisible' mode to the game any time this century?
User was temp banned for this post.
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Every time I read a David Kim interview, I wonder if we watch the same game
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EPT
