|
On November 07 2012 16:46 jworld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 16:25 Netsky wrote:On November 07 2012 15:59 blade55555 wrote:On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs! MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals. GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though). While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16. Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it. I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches.
Totally agree. Just attempting to refute to the often raised "but GSL has Terrans so everything is fine" argument.
When David Kim talks balance he will speak of his sources - ladder, tournament results etc. but only speak of the win rates in match up that is being discussed. There is absolutely no reference to how the players are achieving the wins. For example, let's say that PvZ is 50%. Without looking any deeper this match up seems balanced, right? But if you look deeper and 75%+ of the Protoss win are from Protoss executing some derivative of the Parting 2-base Immortal push, and 75%+ of the Zerg wins are from turtling and massing Infestors and Broodlords it's not really balanced. It's just coin-flippy.
That is, if the Protoss 2-base Immortal push fails, they usually lose. Conversely, if the Zerg don't mass Infestors and Broodlords they usually lose. It just feels like a gross misunderstanding of how the games are currently being played out and looking on the surface (i.e. the win percentages) only.
|
No offence but is David Kim an idiot?
There is way more to balance then looking at numbers. Even if (big if) infestor/broodlord is balanced it is not fun to watch or play, it encourages boring turtle style. David Kim needs to look past the numbers and at the actual qualitative data.
Balancing off numbers is easy, balancing the game play so it is fun to watch is harder.
|
On November 07 2012 17:10 Netsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 16:46 jworld wrote:On November 07 2012 16:25 Netsky wrote:On November 07 2012 15:59 blade55555 wrote:On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs! MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals. GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though). While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16. Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it. I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches. Totally agree. Just attempting to refute to the often raised "but GSL has Terrans so everything is fine" argument. When David Kim talks balance he will speak of his sources - ladder, tournament results etc. but only speak of the win rates in match up that is being discussed. There is absolutely no reference to how the players are achieving the wins. For example, let's say that PvZ is 50%. Without looking any deeper this match up seems balanced, right? But if you look deeper and 75%+ of the Protoss win are from Protoss executing some derivative of the Parting 2-base Immortal push, and 75%+ of the Zerg wins are from turtling and massing Infestors and Broodlords it's not really balanced. It's just coin-flippy. That is, if the Protoss 2-base Immortal push fails, they usually lose. Conversely, if the Zerg don't mass Infestors and Broodlords they usually lose. It just feels like a gross misunderstanding of how the games are currently being played out and looking on the surface (i.e. the win percentages) only.
David Kim answered the question. Question was about nerfing infestors/broodlord. It is fail of forum whiners to admit what you just said. Forum whiners insist that infestor/broodlord are OP disregarding the fact of 50% win rates.
|
On November 07 2012 17:20 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 17:10 Netsky wrote:On November 07 2012 16:46 jworld wrote:On November 07 2012 16:25 Netsky wrote:On November 07 2012 15:59 blade55555 wrote:On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs! MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals. GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though). While what you are stating is true, it's important to remember that that a Zerg won the last GSL. This season is GSL is currently 6Z, 4T, 2P in the Ro16 with Leenock and Life still left to play. It's pretty safe bet that both Leenock and Life will make it through, meaning a 50% Zerg in the final 16. Many point to the GSL, being the highest level of competition where we don't see complete Zerg domination compared to everywhere else. It's shaping up to Zerg fest in the GSL as well. Code Z I believe the TL writers called it. I don't think race distributions should be driving the changes for this issue. I think it should be addressed sooner rather than later because zerg match ups are becoming increasingly boring to watch if it gets to the late game. This is coming from someone that doesn't play the game anymore but only watches. Totally agree. Just attempting to refute to the often raised "but GSL has Terrans so everything is fine" argument. When David Kim talks balance he will speak of his sources - ladder, tournament results etc. but only speak of the win rates in match up that is being discussed. There is absolutely no reference to how the players are achieving the wins. For example, let's say that PvZ is 50%. Without looking any deeper this match up seems balanced, right? But if you look deeper and 75%+ of the Protoss win are from Protoss executing some derivative of the Parting 2-base Immortal push, and 75%+ of the Zerg wins are from turtling and massing Infestors and Broodlords it's not really balanced. It's just coin-flippy. That is, if the Protoss 2-base Immortal push fails, they usually lose. Conversely, if the Zerg don't mass Infestors and Broodlords they usually lose. It just feels like a gross misunderstanding of how the games are currently being played out and looking on the surface (i.e. the win percentages) only. David Kim answered the question. Question was about nerfing infestors/broodlord. It is fail of forum whiners to admit what you just said. Forum whiners insist that infestor/broodlord are OP disregarding the fact of 50% win rates.
I think he realizes that. There are other %s we can derive from games also, such as win %s at certain times of the game or on certain maps, etc. I highly doubt that the %s are in equilibrium within these other statistics; so my question is does Blizzard know about these stats and do they strive to balance the game around them? I feel like they've touched on it and acknowledged that certain races have an inherent advantage depending on the time and pace of the game, but are those balances correct right now? I think most players would argue they are not, given the evolution of the game and maps.
|
On November 07 2012 14:13 TiberiusAk wrote:
I predict some or all of those changes will happen after WCS on the 17th (and if not then, perhaps after IPL5/GSL5 finals weekend). They will happen either because:
a) the big tournaments have passed, so Blizzard will feel the timing is right to dabble in WoL balance changes again, or
b) after those tournaments, the numbers will have shifted into zerg dominance. Blizzard will then happily hit their prepared nerf buttons.
WCS maybe since it's there tournament, but they've had no issue releasing patches days before a major tournament or match.
If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
I don't get how they don't see Broodlord / Infestor as a big deal. It makes me genuinely question if they are watching the same game as us. And even then, they have to question whether it's only in ZvT / ZvP or both. At the same time, does it even have to be
Terran's Bio force are dominating in early and mid game.
After the queen patch I really don't see this to be the case. Even with terran's playing extremely greedy, there army is always equal to zergs, I wouldn't ever say it is all that scary. Blizzard's decisions really confuse me. I agree with them that dynamic match ups are more intersting, at different points in the match up races should have varying strengths. I don't agree with a black and white case of it being strictly early / late game. I think the current TvZ meta shows what happens when the two races feel equal in stength. Personally, I found TvZ much more interesting when Zerg's had to fight for equal footing and they'd feel stronger at certain points such as high mutalisk count, after crushing a terran army, after getting Ultras / Broodlords out. And Terran had the same when they reached a certain number of Thor, when Zerg is taking a third, when there medivac count hits a certain point.
We are trying to change the metagame of HOTS to revolve around the new units.
Hoping that this is just lost in translation, and that it really just means they want the new units to be apart of the meta game, although that's a very obvious statement. I'd rather not see them try to influence the metagame by designing certain units a certain way, and instead just focus on creating intersting units with enough depth that the players will be able to use them heaps. Again though, seems like the paragraph this came from could just be lost in translation a bit.
Without adding new units, we have to fix many other factors to prevent balance from collapsing. Thus we are going to address this issue in HOTS through new units.
HotS and WoL aside, I'd rather see them focus on mixing up the meta game through changing current units to solve the problems. Look at the reasons why certain strategies have fallen out of favour and find consistent problems. Protoss lack various ways to take third bases, as anyway they take the third has to be safe from a 200/200 Roach flood. Terran need to not be overwhelmed by the zergs economy, but doesn't have many aggressive ways to do it, forcing economic builds, which also have to be safe against a potential Mass Bane / Ling / Muta attack thats come about since Zerg can be so greedy. And zerg are forced to use infestors in every match up, not because they are a good unit, they struggle immensely without them, and against a maxed out Protoss army, only Broodlord / Infestor is able to consistently beat it.
Blizzard seems to be ignoring or not focusing on the root of the problems. Instead they are trying to add new units to fix this. It's Blizzard game, so they are free to do what they want, and since they have to be so careful with what they say it's understandable they might not be able to say exactly what they want to, but these interviews always scare me as there design process seems really wonky, and it seems to reinforce the sterotype that Blizzard employees aren't watching the same game we are.
|
Put the translations in spoilers on the opening post please!
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life.
More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question
|
On November 07 2012 17:17 Highways wrote:
No offence but is David Kim an idiot?
There is way more to balance then looking at numbers. Even if (big if) infestor/broodlord is balanced it is not fun to watch or play, it encourages boring turtle style. David Kim needs to look past the numbers and at the actual qualitative data.
Balancing off numbers is easy, balancing the game play so it is fun to watch is harder.
I agree, but I doubt that that is David Kim's department. As far as I know, his job is to keep racial/unit balance in check, not to make changes that make them fun to play. Has to be someone else looking at that (and is falling behind on their job) :O
|
i just dont get it, how do you see if the game is balanced by looking at statistics? 50:50 as of now, i just dont see in what way this shows balance or none-balance. Seems ruggish to me! Its unlogic to look at the resault, isnt it? Iam serious
|
I feel sad they not gonna change the infestor.
|
On November 07 2012 17:35 feanor1 wrote:Put the translations in spoilers on the opening post please! Show nested quote +What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life.
More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question
Not surprising really. They have been balancing around Mvp for the past year or so.
|
On November 07 2012 15:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 15:52 EleanorRIgby wrote:
so blizzard is aware of zerg dominance but want to wait even longer? Every tournament except GSL(because it takes awhile for players to rotate in and out) is dominated by zerg look at WCS there are like no terrans and 50 zergs and even last MLG it was zerg vs zerg finals. The GM ladder and normal ladder are also filled with zergs! MLG top 8 were 4 terran 2 toss 2 zerg. The 2 zergs that made it to the finals are arguably the best zergs in the world. It's not like these were no name zergs or bad zerg players who made it to the finals. GSL and OSL both had lack of zergs last season. GM ladder is filled with zerg on NA, On KR it's a lot less and I believe terran/toss/zerg is fairly equal and I believe I read EU is more protoss dominant (this one I am not sure I just feel I read that, don't pay attention to EU ladder though).
You're completely wrong on this one. Zergs have been dominating in Euro tournaments for a long time.
|
On November 07 2012 18:03 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 17:35 feanor1 wrote:Put the translations in spoilers on the opening post please! What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life.
More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question Not surprising really. They have been balancing around Mvp for the past year or so.
And around the strange fact that about 60% of GSL quarterfinalists to date are terrans.
|
On November 07 2012 18:14 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 18:03 vthree wrote:On November 07 2012 17:35 feanor1 wrote:Put the translations in spoilers on the opening post please! What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life.
More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
I love how one player can make the balance of the game come into question Not surprising really. They have been balancing around Mvp for the past year or so. And around the strange fact that about 60% of GSL quarterfinalists to date are terrans.
And other zergs besides Life are also showing better results this year. The focus will always be on the premiere players.
|
Recently Zerg has been dominating in WoL. Protoss players especially are complaining about it. Are you aware of this?
Yes, we are receiving tons of feedbacks regarding this. However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments. If we look at the race distribution, I don't think it's not that bad. However, I believe that there is flaw in the game design. For e.g. it is very hard to face late game zerg composition without mothership's vortex. Therefore in HOTS, we are trying to provide solutions by adding units like Tempest. We are aware of Zerg's dominance but we are waiting for more results to show up.
Many Protoss players have been complaining that it is impossible to deal with BL-Infestor combo. Some pro-players are suggesting that it is impossible to beat late game PvZ.
Yes we are aware that such issues are present. However in Starleague, Protoss players dominated against zerg players and considering other tournaments, PvZ is not completely one sided. There is a problem with the match up but we believe that it can be fixed through various patches. As for now, we should take time to decide wether this is a serious problem or not. If we believe that it is not an issue, balance updates will be focused on HOTS.
these set of of completely one sided and biased questions honestly make me face palm at the community. BL/infestor unbeatable? impossible to deal with?
how about the traditional toss deathball + mother ship being unbeatable and impossible to deal with unless we go BL infestor? ppl dont realize how unstable this match up really is. if zerg doesnt go BL infestor we straight up lose.
if u get 1 vortex off then zerg auto loses and vice versa for toss. the sad part about all this is that for zerg to win we need to use vortex, the enemies on spell, in order to win. its amazing how one sided people can be.
if zerg does not go BL/infestor in WoL currently there is no conceivable/viable way to deal with the toss army directly. what will we use? roaches? ultras? hydras rofl?
|
On November 07 2012 17:17 Highways wrote:
No offence but is David Kim an idiot?
There is way more to balance then looking at numbers. Even if (big if) infestor/broodlord is balanced it is not fun to watch or play, it encourages boring turtle style. David Kim needs to look past the numbers and at the actual qualitative data.
Balancing off numbers is easy, balancing the game play so it is fun to watch is harder.
Hmmmmm........
|
I think that blizzard should patch the game so that the meta game is heading in the right direction rather than sitting calmly at the monitor to see if there is a 50/50 winrate. The game, if you so will, of the designer is to make the game interesting which supersedes the balancing of the game.
|
I will give an alternative translation of what Mr. Kim said:
We are busy with HotS, enjoy the next six months of Zerg domination and boring PvZ, don't look at us for any changes until the expansion is released.
He should take another look at tournaments, GSL code S 8/9 zergs will probably stay in the RO16, only 1 zerg has dropped so far. Also, when watching the matches it is pretty clear that zerg has an edge in the late game. And also that the late game has pretty much replaced the mid-game, considering how safe it is these days to get a 3rd and just drone away.
|
On November 07 2012 18:42 Domus wrote:
I will give an alternative translation of what Mr. Kim said:
We are busy with HotS, enjoy the next six months of Zerg domination and boring PvZ, don't look at us for any changes until the expansion is released.
He should take another look at tournaments, GSL code S 8/9 zergs will probably stay in the RO16, only 1 zerg has dropped so far. Also, when watching the matches it is pretty clear that zerg has an edge in the late game. And also that the late game has pretty much replaced the mid-game, considering how safe it is these days to get a 3rd and just drone away.
just stop... there is nothing clear about it. i really hate when ppl look at tournament results, especially results from only a 1 or 2 tournaments, and try to determine balance in that way just because a race wins. going off of tournament wins to balance a game is such a shit tier way to go about balancing a game imo.
|
On November 07 2012 18:43 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 18:42 Domus wrote:
I will give an alternative translation of what Mr. Kim said:
We are busy with HotS, enjoy the next six months of Zerg domination and boring PvZ, don't look at us for any changes until the expansion is released.
He should take another look at tournaments, GSL code S 8/9 zergs will probably stay in the RO16, only 1 zerg has dropped so far. Also, when watching the matches it is pretty clear that zerg has an edge in the late game. And also that the late game has pretty much replaced the mid-game, considering how safe it is these days to get a 3rd and just drone away. just stop... there is nothing clear about it. i really hate when ppl look at tournament results, especially results from only a 1 or 2 tournaments, and try to determine balance in that way just because a race wins. going off of tournament wins to balance a game is such a shit tier way to go about balancing a game imo.
I don't care if it is zerg, or terran, or protoss dominating. What I don't like is that Blizzard will not do a thing until HotS is released and I think that will be at least another 6-12 months. Also, 2 tournament? Go check liquipedia, check the Euro and Australian scene, and now also Korea. Also, anyone who has watched PvZ in the last couple of months can't say with a straight face there is no problem. The interviewer asked very specific questions about it, and Kim just said they are not going to do a thing.
|
If they just did make an infestor cost 3 supply, raven 3 or 4 and a broodlord 5 that would really fix so many things. The problem with lategame armies is not that they don't have the tools to deal with the zerg deathball, rather the fact that it's too cost efficient. David Kim doesn't see the problem because he doesn't know what to answer, pretty much for the same reason he canceled the Q&A on stage with progamers at IEM Cologne for no good reason. It's not so hard to fix this game, I wish they just had the right people at the job.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
