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On November 07 2012 07:45 Yorbon wrote:This thread has turned out to be very funny. I want to compliment plansix and yoshi kirishima on their useful contributions, though. On the interviews: nothing strange really. I'm only a bit disappointed that they are not even considering changing the infestor. I mean, he said 'no direct nerfs', but there is very little to change the rooting ability without it being a nerf. I really hope they change something about it. But pretty positive about the rest of it  edit: the person above me had splendid timing.
Thank you for the shout out sir. I do what I can. As Wheat says, "One troll at a time".
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David Kim said:
We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
Would be awesome. Glad to see that they at least took at look at Tyler's idea. I'm always up for more micro, and really, who isn't?
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On November 07 2012 09:54 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote:
We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
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Thanks Nony aka Tyler! This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player
You're... you're pretty dumb, aren't you? Liquid`NoNy is a professional player of SC2. He gets paid to play the game. That is what "professional", or "pro", means. Moreover, everything he said about the Carrier was accurate. The video was pure facts about mechanical Carrier functionality, with live demonstration. If you had bothered watching the video, you would know that if they took his suggestions into account, Carriers would become a far more entertaining unit to use and watch, with a higher micro ceiling and better lategame potential.
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On November 07 2012 08:21 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:13 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 08:04 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote:On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote:
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying. There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses. 2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal. Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion. As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset. You have no idea how casual gamers think do you? Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem. Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time.
To add something about Dota vs SC:
Dota 2 is generally (in pub play) kind of a "once you've learned, you'll generally always know" game. (Like riding a bike, if you played enough to know the mechanics and most of the heroes, then it stays there).
There's no build others to memorize or crazy stuff that you need to know to get up to speed (oh no, he's 4gating, what DO I DO TO COUNTER THAT!) in pub play (captain's mode, maybe, but any other mode like all pick or single draft, there's no need to study since it's easy).
Also, people generally are "helpful" (AKA, they boss you around) in Dota 2 if you're not up to speed.
I haven't played Dota since like 3-4 years and when I played Dota 2, I caught up with what to do quickly (things like supports aren't supposed to get last hits for example - Darn, I can't try out my carry, win the game within 20 mins, Crystal Maiden anymore).
In SC2, it's different. If you don't know the latest build orders or what to do, then you're dead (4 gate in PvP is a really good example before the nerf to ramp vision and the +30 second to WG research time).
(Back when 4 gate was the thing for example - If you didn't know about 4 gate or the exact build other to use and do, you're dead. It doesn't matter what league you were in, since very few things countered or worked against 4 gate in PvP back then for example. You had to know the build order and the timing exactly or else you won't be able to counter or go against 4 gate in PvP.)
This isn't really the case for a game like Dota 2 - There might be an OP hero of the month but that's it. Generally in pub play, you don't really need to know much (you easily learn by playing, unlike SC2, where you might not be able to figure out PvP 4 gating unless you go on the forums or really analysis the replays multiple times). It's also helpful that you have teammates to remind you what you may need to do (I say may because not all advice from pubs are helpful, some people may just be plain snobs >.>).
SC2 really lacks that "learn by playing" foundation found in Dota 2.
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Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent.
They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
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On November 07 2012 11:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 09:54 magnaflow wrote:On November 07 2012 08:44 darkness wrote:
We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
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Thanks Nony aka Tyler! This right here proves that Blizzard doesn't have a fucking clue. Not only do they think Infestor/BL is OK in it's current state, they also consider Nony a Pro Player You're... you're pretty dumb, aren't you? Liquid`NoNy is a professional player of SC2. He gets paid to play the game. That is what "professional", or "pro", means. Moreover, everything he said about the Carrier was accurate. The video was pure facts about mechanical Carrier functionality, with live demonstration. If you had bothered watching the video, you would know that if they took his suggestions into account, Carriers would become a far more entertaining unit to use and watch, with a higher micro ceiling and better lategame potential.
I have no issues with his video, he was spot on.
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Thanks for the translations.
These interviews are very depressing. They show just how out of touch and clueless the designers for the game we want to love so much really are.
We seem to have this hope that HotS will revive interest and somehow fix the game to be able to played at a legitimate competitive level again. I don't really see how things are going to change much considering this ignorant attitude we see from the developers.
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On November 07 2012 11:14 gulshngill wrote:
Blizzard needs to stop looking at winrates when it comes to balancing the game. Sure it helps but only to some extent.
They have to look at HOW the games are played for them to win. Most protoss and terran players are pretty much going all-in before zergs get infestors or hive-tech out every game and it's boring watching the same thing over and over again.
This, and everytime we hear balance is 50/50 in a match-up. If that's the case, why have we had so many patches if win rates never get critical?
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Just more garbage from Blizzard.
I'm absolutely speechless at how out of touch they really are. Its beyond me at this point. I'm just lost....lost for words, lost for reason, lost for any hope Blizzard has a square head on their shoulders.
They can go fuck themselves for as much as I care anymore.
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A lot of the responses were pretty disappointing, will just have to wait for HOTS I guess.
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On November 07 2012 10:26 wwowz wrote:If no one is willing to translate the second article.. i guess i could do that as well .. lololol 2nd article Translation: + Show Spoiler +
Is there any race in particular that stands out in HOTS? Also, how are balance changes going to occur in HOTS?
Currently we are not at the stage of analyzing the racial balance. Instead, we are focusing on what to do with the new units that are being added. We are trying to make pro gamers recognize the potential of new units and use them more often in games. Having said that, we can't say which race is OP and which isn't. We think all new units are strong.
In WoL, Zerg seems to dominate lategame after hive tech. What are your thoughts on this and how are you going to address it? Also on the similar note, Terran's bio seems useless at the late game and the immortal/sentry all-in rush in PvZ seems really strong.
Looking at the overall tournaments, we believe that there is balance in pro-gaming level. Although we have been getting tons of feedbacks on Zerg being OP, if we take a look at last 10 major tournamets, racial distributions in players and winners are balanced. Although it may seemed that Zerg's late game is unbeatable, W/L ratio is still being balanced at 50:50. At this time we have to wait for new strategies from progamers.
Currently the most widely discussed unit is BL - Infestor combination.If the dominance is present in both ZvP and ZvT, we are willing to reduce the range the fungal growth or reduce the radius. If this is only applicable to ZvP, we are willing to buff carriers by making interceptors immune to fungal growth. However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
Terran's Bio force are dominating in early and mid game. Considering the variety of metagame, we don't see any problem in this. In HOTS, we are going to make mech play more viable so that progamers can use both bio and mech depending on their characteristics.
Recently, the metagame demonstrated in large tournaments seem to be stable. We are speculating that this is due to players abusing certain metagame composition. What are your thoughts on this?
Yes, we are aware that this is happening but we believe that there are still variations among players. For e.g. TvZ, MKP will put more emphasis on bionic to take control of the mid to late game with micro. LG-IM's MVP will favor mechanic in this match up. However, we are aware that many players are using similar build and this issue is very difficult to touch upon in WoL. Without adding new units, we have to fix many other factors to prevent balance from collapsing. Thus we are going to address this issue in HOTS through new units.
What are your thoughts on the rising star "Startale Life"?
Balance patches should be made when a single player dominates, or single build/metagame for a particular race dominates the scene. Currently we expect Zerg to dominate. Although the stats are showing that it's not, if a particular race dominates the other races, we are willing to change some things.
The problem is with Life is that we are not sure if it's Zerg that is getting stronger or is if it is only applicable to Life.
More discussions are necessary to address this issue.
Some of the changes from WoL to HOTS does not have the "impact" that was seen when SCI original was transitioned to BW.
We believe it is impossible to change everything at once. SC1 original was not at the level of making e-sports grow and even BW needed many updates to perfect the balance.
In the early stages of SC2, the balance wasn't so bad. The developers are also trying implant small changes often instead of doing all at once. We have received several feedback indicatingthat HOTS isn't so much different from WoL. As a result, we reworked the design of many new units. For instance, widow mines are not consumable units but they do massive 160 damage. We are trying to change the metagame of HOTS to revolve around the new units.
Why does hellbat in HOTS given a biological armor? Isn't hellbat a mechanical unit?
In BW, firebats were rarely used. We only saw it once in a 100 games for example. We tried to make this unit a core part of the army. The reason why we added a biological armor is to allow hellbat to be used for two different purposes. In Thor/Tank composition, we wanted it to fight as hellion where as in bio force, we wanted it to fight as hellbat. When doing so, we realized that Hellbat could not get healed by medivacs and thus it was useless in terms of tanking. This is why we changed the armor to biological so that it can be healed by medviacs and act similar to marauders.
Another way we are currently thinking is to change the medviac so that it can heal both bio AND mechanic through different healing mechanism. Also we are thinking of preventing hellbats to change back to hellions. The change in armor types during transformation is an issue that needs more research.
Edit: Just skimmed over it. Looks like most of them are repetitions but there are some new questions. I will post the translation asap. Please wait for more updates!
Thank you for translating
incoming rage and QQ about how, even though they've revealed all these things that they are not satisfied at yet and will continue to look at, they don't listen/understand/fix anything ^^
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david kim wrote:
However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
really?
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And yeah, I definitely agree that the "50/50" excuse from the Blizzard design team is getting a little bit old. Surely, they must look at a lot of different factors, such as game length, maps, builds used, ect. It always just seems like a dirty excuse David Kim pulls out anytime someone asks him about balance.
Overall, I think HotS > WoL and they're definitely taking steps in the right direction, even if they are only baby steps.
I would, though, like to see Blizz make more BOLD strides with their balance changes. Not just minor number tweaks but experiment with things like pathing and reworking colossus/infestor. It's understandable that they don't want to take huge risks when the game is already so established but I personally think that it would pay off in the long run.
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i'm happy they are thinking about nonys video.
"In BW, firebats were rarely used. We only saw it once in a 100 games for example" wtf david... you have no idea what your talking about.
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David Kim said firebats were only used 1 in 100 games?
What is he watching, fastest map possible NR20 games in Brood War?
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On November 07 2012 11:37 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +david kim wrote:
However, we still think that BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal.
really?
Yeah that's painful to read. It's as if they don't watch games. It doesn't matter if win rates are even if when it gets to late game for any zerg match up the game is boring to watch. It is especially bad if the zergs game plan is to get to Brood Lord Infestor and to try and avoid any early/mid game attacks.
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Kinda disappointed in Blizzard's answers about Broodlord/Infestor. Even though the matchup may be balanced, the game certainly isn't balanced past the 20th minute mark in PvT and PvZ. More importantly it isn't really fun; broodlord/infestor is a really boring combination, and fungal is especially anti-micro. Fungal is one of the most glaring conceptual design flaw in sc2 due to how boring it is.
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I wont be buying HotS until I think its ready david Kim, so don't you just throw together a handful of new units, some stupid AI, new pictures and a stupid new UI. That is just simply not going to win my money david kim.
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Oh God......
Long story short, this thread is gonna be closed...too much BL Infestor rage here.
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EPT
