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was really hoping for a bunker change.. sigh one day :/
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On November 07 2012 08:14 Kal_rA wrote:
was really hoping for a bunker change.. sigh one day :/
What is wrong with the bunker?
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On November 07 2012 08:16 Utopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:14 Kal_rA wrote:
was really hoping for a bunker change.. sigh one day :/ What is wrong with the bunker?
Nothing, that's why it has to be changed.
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On November 07 2012 08:13 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:04 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote:On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote:
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying. There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses. 2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal. Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion. As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset.
You have no idea how casual gamers think do you?
Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem.
Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time.
You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment.
Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage.
Just to reiterate: Casuals don't give a fuck about their "potential", they neither have the time nor desire to be even semi-pro and have made their peace with that generally.
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On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote:On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote:
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying. There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this.
I wouldnt call the infestor a recent metagame issue. The design of fungal and IT is making alot of people feel they start the game at a big disadvantage. What you think about the infestor at pro level aside, im sure all of us who have been playing sc2 for a long time would agree that the infestor is most likely quite OP in lower leagues. The design of the infestor obviously makes it hard for a lot of people to enjoy the game. Why shouldnt they ask blizzard to adress this? Is it impossible to fix it with out nerfing zerg? You are assuming people make the irrational connection you described but you dont know this is the case so i dont understand why you bring it up. There are people who play this game and rarely watch streams/tournaments and even if they do, why would they make this connection? Do you? im guessing not. I dont. Why would i assume everyone who complains do?
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The funny thing is how people from TL doesnt realize that bronze player never play infestor and always go muta. Infestor is too hard to micro for them.  (true story !)
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On November 07 2012 08:11 Jarree wrote:
David Kim: Hey Dustin, there's been a lot of feedback about broodlord-infestor again...
Dustin Brown: Sshh Dave, can't you see i'm balancing these rocks! Just tell them it's 50-50!
i enjoyed this
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On November 07 2012 08:21 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:13 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 08:04 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote:On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote:
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying. There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses. 2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal. Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion. As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset. You have no idea how casual gamers think do you? Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem. Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time. You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment. Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage.
No really, re-read the quoted posts. You've taken my post way out of context.
Regardless, Fungal Growth has nothing to do with these players losing no matter how casual they are. They lose because they're bad -- but they're fighting bad zerg. If Fungal Growth was really overpowered to the extent that it'd adversely affect their winrates then they would be paired with worse zergs statistically to balance their winrate.
The point (in contention in my original post) is that they then whine irrationally when they see a progamer lose and cite imbalance, drawing the connection that x is overpowered cause they've lost to it too, when it has nothing to do with why they're ultimately losing. The whine is infact irrational for the most part.
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United States805 Posts
One of the most exciting answers for me was that they're considering using Nony's idea for BW like Carrier control.
Also, I really think that they should nerf infestor a bit in hots, specifically make fugal a slow instead of snare. Buff the viper so it has a bigger / better blinding cloud to compensate, it will require more micro all around.
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I am a proud terran and I wouldn't mind if widow mine would be the only new unit in Hots. I feel T is very well rounded and has more freedom than Z or P. I think right now the only enjoyable match-ups to play and watch are the ones involving Terran. I feel
if Hots expands all the three races equally, Terran would be ahead.
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On November 07 2012 08:22 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote:On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote:
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying. There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. I wouldnt call the infestor a recent metagame issue. The design of fungal and IT is making alot of people feel they start the game at a big disadvantage. What you think about the infestor at pro level aside, im sure all of us who have been playing sc2 for a long time would agree that the infestor is most likely quite OP in lower leagues. The design of the infestor obviously makes it hard for a lot of people to enjoy the game. Why shouldnt they ask blizzard to adress this? Is it impossible to fix it with out nerfing zerg? You are assuming people make the irrational connection you described but you dont know this is the case so i dont understand why you bring it up. There are people who play this game and rarely watch streams/tournaments and even if they do, why would they make this connection? Do you? im guessing not. I dont. Why would i assume everyone who complains do?
It's a metagame issue, whether it be the result of systematic imbalance or stagnant Terran innovation. It's a different argument to address design. You appear to be confusing the two.
You also conclude players aren't irrational in their approach to dealing with infestors yet you stated earlier they "feel" behind, which is irrational. They're on the ladder fighting zergs who generally are statistically inclined to have no more than a 50-55% chance to beat them. It doesn't matter if it's overpowered -- the matches themselves are even. And they can improve and fight stronger zerg. As long as they aren't fighting the zergs top pros fight they have the opportunity for success.
What's irrational though is to draw a connection to these high level games and then conclude that you're losing because of the same thing when you're no where near that level. What discourages casual players is when people build up the propagated imbalance like the game is unplayable, and these players embrace it as an excuse for their losses rather than dealing with it so that they can get better -- no matter the rate that they would intend.
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On November 07 2012 08:29 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:21 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 08:13 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 08:04 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote:On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote:
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying. There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses. 2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal. Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion. As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset. You have no idea how casual gamers think do you? Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem. Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time. You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment. Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage. No really, re-read the quoted posts. You've taken my post way out of context. Regardless, Fungal Growth has nothing to do with these players losing no matter how casual they are. They lose because they're bad -- but they're fighting bad zerg. If Fungal Growth was really overpowered to the extent that it'd adversely affect their winrates then they would be paired with worse zergs statistically to balance their winrate. The point (in contention in my original post) is that they then whine irrationally when they see a progamer lose and cite imbalance, drawing the connection that x is overpowered cause they've lost to it too, when it has nothing to do with why they're ultimately losing. The whine is infact irrational for the most part.
So you're saying that an "irrational connection" is made when Zerg wins at a pro level because the viewer (low level player), convinced by his own anecdotal experience, engages in some form of self-justificatory exercise concluding that "X player couldn't beat race Y, race Y is imbalanced, no wonder I lose".
That argument would hold only if it was true that only Terran players whine about ZvT, but that is not always the case. I've seen plenty non-Protosses complain about ZvP. Hell, some of the complaints are even about the BL Infestor composition in ZvZ (when games take FOREVER to finish).
EDIT: Your argument also gets weaker as the level of the person making the complaint gets higher. E.g. if someone like Taeja or MarineKing made a complaint.
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On November 07 2012 08:30 Chronos. wrote:
One of the most exciting answers for me was that they're considering using Nony's idea for BW like Carrier control.
Also, I really think that they should nerf infestor a bit in hots, specifically make fugal a slow instead of snare. Buff the viper so it has a bigger / better blinding cloud to compensate, it will require more micro all around.
It's sad that it took them 5 years (at least) and a youtube video to understand a mechanic that was in the game for which they created the sequel. David Kim should know these kind of stuff (wasn't he a broodwar pro/semi pro at some point?).
Every interview with people that are actually in charge of the game leave me absolutely unimpressed.
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We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
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Thanks Nony aka Tyler!
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On November 07 2012 08:38 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:29 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 08:21 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 08:13 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 08:04 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote:On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 07:13 Fjodorov wrote:
Its funny how some people see all this "whine" as irrational and stupid. At some point the the whine and complaining means something and says something about the game. It doesnt happen in a vacuum and it is infact irrational to assume that most people are irrational. The complaints and whine about infestors have reached the level that it cant be dismissed as stupid nonsense and noobs crying. There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses. 2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal. Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion. As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset. You have no idea how casual gamers think do you? Improvement, however minor, in SC2 requires a minimum time investment. It's the same for everyone. After a long hiatus, the first few games are about getting reacquainted, getting comfortable, then you relearn the current meta and then try to iron out your game. Most people simply DO NOT have time to do that or play consistently enough to avoid the hiatus problem. Look at games like Dota 2 at the low levels, it doesn't matter that people suck, because they know that their opponents suck too and everyone has a fair shot at winning even while dicking around, That's fun for the casuals, and more importantly, MANAGEABLE within their free time. You speak as if everyone is still in high school / college and can play consistently and more importantly, SHOULD always aim to be better. I'm saying that it's bullshit that every player at every level needs to do that to derive enjoyment. Nothing to do with fungal? It's basically the power of multiple forcefield surrounds, that hits air, in 1 click AND does damage. No really, re-read the quoted posts. You've taken my post way out of context. Regardless, Fungal Growth has nothing to do with these players losing no matter how casual they are. They lose because they're bad -- but they're fighting bad zerg. If Fungal Growth was really overpowered to the extent that it'd adversely affect their winrates then they would be paired with worse zergs statistically to balance their winrate. The point (in contention in my original post) is that they then whine irrationally when they see a progamer lose and cite imbalance, drawing the connection that x is overpowered cause they've lost to it too, when it has nothing to do with why they're ultimately losing. The whine is infact irrational for the most part. So you're saying that an "irrational connection" is made when Zerg wins at a pro level because the viewer (low level player), convinced by his own anecdotal experience, engages in some form of self-justificatory exercise concluding that "X player couldn't beat race Y, race Y is imbalanced, no wonder I lose". That argument would hold only if it was true that only Terran players whine about ZvT, but that is not always the case. I've seen plenty non-Protosses complain about ZvP. Hell, some of the complaints are even about the BL Infestor composition in ZvZ (when games take FOREVER to finish). EDIT: Your argument also gets weaker as the level of the person making the complaint gets higher. E.g. if someone like Taeja or MarineKing made a complaint.
People whine about a ton of shit. The ZvT metagame issue is simply that much more pervasive.
"non-protoss players" complaining about ZvP is different though. ZvP is also in a weird metagame that rewards the zerg turtling and the protoss all-inning which isn't interesting to watch.
I'm not arguing that the people whining are wrong. Just that it's for the most part irrational and not constructive -- and that SC2 is not dying because the "imbalance" is causing disinterest amongst pros and casuals alike whom flock to LoL. If Taeja or MKP came out and said x was imbalanced they could likely be correct.
The problem is when pros come out, say the game design is fucked up and that the game is gonna die. It only hurts the community, especially when it's largely exaggerated and untrue.
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On November 07 2012 08:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Can anyone translate the second interview please?
No one up to the challenge? I feel like we are missing some important insight.
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zerg and protoss split tournament winnings 2 : 1!
terra-what? no, no new unit!
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On November 07 2012 08:48 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Can anyone translate the second interview please? No one up to the challenge? I feel like we are missing some important insight.
Yeah, the second interview is even longer than the first one. I think people wrongly think that two links are the same interview.
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On November 07 2012 08:11 Jarree wrote:
David Kim: Hey Dustin, there's been a lot of feedback about broodlord-infestor again...
Dustin Brown: Sshh Dave, can't you see i'm balancing these rocks! Just tell them it's 50-50!
LOL
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On November 07 2012 07:31 MayZerG_UK wrote:
Are we still going on about zerg being OP with broodlord infestor?
Please remind me who won WCS Asia and OSL finals? Was that a zerg? How many times has MVP been in the finals? Does he play zerg?
Some people are so delusional...
Rofl. Because it is not delusional to look at the winners of tournaments? Why do you think Zs got a queen and overlord buff. A lot of zergs were having problems with early game terrans due to lack of scouting , BF hellions denying creep and getting killed by early aggression by T. Which I do think was an issue. However, Nestea won 3 GSL, DRG was probably the #1 player in the world after his GSL and MLG win. So why did Queens and overlords get buff? IF DRG was winning tournaments with so many Ts in it, zergs should have been fine, right?
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EPT
