EPTOn November 07 2012 06:06 larse wrote:
Protoss has 3 more units than Terran in total.
Protoss has 3 more units than Terran in total.
In HotS protoss has too many units imo.
Two new interviews with David Kim (need translate) - Page 14
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
In HotS protoss has too many units imo. | ||
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ES.Genie
Germany1370 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:04 mishimaBeef wrote: they probably want to avoid stupid names that some people would use they don't want people seeing this on their new battle.net 2.0: JOHNS FFA micro tournament, no noobs SEKS BARN monobattle ^_^ Because gaming is all serious business 'n shit... :/ I just don't understand it. It's little things like these that make a game lovable and enjoyable. There is demand for them in the community and it's probably really easy to implement them. But well, I guess we have to stick with battle.net 0.2. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:31 MayZerG_UK wrote: Are we still going on about zerg being OP with broodlord infestor? Please remind me who won WCS Asia and OSL finals? Was that a zerg? How many times has MVP been in the finals? Does he play zerg? Some people are so delusional... Broodlord / infestor OP =/= Zerg never loses In assessing the strength of that composition all games that the Zerg did not get that composition are irrelevant. Also, LOL at WCS, you realise that tournament was won by a P before it even started right? Did you even see the player list? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:26 Scila wrote: Oh I see, so because Zerg wins all the time in late game its ok. What is your standard for "all of the time"? If "all of the time" is as often as terran won in the era of GomTvT, then they don't win all the time. The era when terrans were nerfted, they were CRUSHING everyone out of the lower brackets. The big debate was when protoss would be elimiated from the GSL, round of 16 or round of 8. And I didn't I thought say the infestor was "ok". I am just tired of amature players crying about how they can't win. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:31 MayZerG_UK wrote: Are we still going on about zerg being OP with broodlord infestor? Please remind me who won WCS Asia and OSL finals? Was that a zerg? How many times has MVP been in the finals? Does he play zerg? Some people are so delusional... You're right, we should continue to balance Terran and Protoss around 1 or 2 top tier players. So delusional... And I didn't I thought say the infestor was "ok". I am just tired of amature players crying about how they can't win. Yes, Demuslim, Taeja, MMA, MVP, and other prominent Terrans are all amateur players. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:20 rd wrote: There will always be whining and complaining no matter how well designed and balanced the game is. You really want to give credence to it because it's especially numerous? That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. | ||
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pprrii
Russian Federation216 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:38 Scila wrote: You're right, we should continue to balance Terran and Protoss around 1 or 2 top tier players. So delusional... Yes, Demuslim, Taeja, MMA, MVP, and other prominent Terrans are all amateur players. How was zerg doing before the changes? ZvP has been broken for ages but TvZ needed some sort of change. Clearly either the queen nerf was too much or zergs anti-marine measures need to be tweaked. On November 07 2012 07:18 Plansix wrote: Does any remember the marauder in the first year of SC2? Or mutas 8 months ago? Or the marine when MKP showed us all how awesome it was? This has all happened before and it will all happen again. THE CYCLE CONTINUES | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote: How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job. I couldn't agree more. I think you summed it up with the word "arrogance." To ignore the community like this and state "win rates between races in major large tournaments are balanced" is completely ridiculous. Is this guy living in a hole? He is completely out of touch with the community. His general response indicates "everything is fine," but some units may require tweaking - except the infestor. If one looks at the decisions this guy is making you would think he is a teenage kid sitting in the basement of his parents house playing Zerg all day trying to make it to GM - "I know, just one more Zerg buff and I can make it!" He looks 12 years old anyway, so it's not too difficult to picture this scenario. Let's see...you saw the need to include a Terran unit like the Warhound at one point, but now you think the race should be satified? Sorry I'm not very excited about HOTS for a window mine (i.e. spider mine) and a worthless reaper. Lets not forget battle helions! Sorry but changing the name from battlehelions to "hellbat" is not a upgrade - and doesn't make mech TvP any more viable. Someone needs to fire this kid... | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I want to compliment plansix and yoshi kirishima on their useful contributions, though. On the interviews: nothing strange really. I'm only a bit disappointed that they are not even considering changing the infestor. I mean, he said 'no direct nerfs', but there is very little to change the rooting ability without it being a nerf. I really hope they change something about it. But pretty positive about the rest of it  edit: the person above me had splendid timing. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:40 Fjodorov wrote: That is usually how it works in society. People complain about something that needs to be fixed and if enough people raise their voice that usually means there is a real problem. Im not saying this is always the case but I dont understand the need for some people to belittle others because they complain about something being wrong with the game they love. If someone says he plays Platinum terran and gets destroyed pretty much every game against zerg because of fungal, you would advice him to learn how to split his 150-200 pop army and aim infestors with siege tanks and make sure to never be caught unsieged? That is the only "counter" to it. The problem is that the skill set required to deal with fungal is so far up from the level you first start to play against it every day. You can talk about how the game is supposed to be balanced for GSL etc, but i dislike all complaints being categorized as irrational whine. In society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. Comparing SC2 to societal market systems doesn't really translate. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. Either way, most people argue for the wrong reasons, and it's upsetting. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10121 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:43 Sabu113 wrote: How was zerg doing before the changes? ZvP has been broken for ages but TvZ needed some sort of change. Clearly either the queen nerf was too much or zergs anti-marine measures need to be tweaked. Being honest ? TvZ problem was the early game being really favored to terrans due to lack of scouting tools for zerg and variety of openings for terrans, if you added the maps into the equation you had terran OP. Of course, aside ghosts and snipe, and non-energy thors kicking protoss. It was proven by GSL results, that a Zerg could handle the early T game with tons of game sense. If we are looking at the winners, like DK is doing, or at least as he explicitly stated. Still, it made early game on TvZ volatile and unfun to watch, since some minor mistake from the zerg could utterly stop the game there, at minute 5-6. Totally unfun to watch, and unfair in my opinion. If they survived early game, Zerg had a chance (before people realized how imbalanced snipe vs zerg was). What's the difference now with infestors/broodlords ? It's lategame. It's better because the game haven't ended, but it's bad game design because the game isn't revolved into winning your opponent, but winning him before he gets that unit composition because if you are not on a map where you are able to split it, there's no way you will get in time a reliable counter to that unit composition. So the game many times, can end with a single mistake from the terran, like not keeping spread the vikings fast enough, will cost you the game. And now, we are not speaking only the TvZ, but how infestor/broodlord unit composition affects every ZvX match up on a similar way, vortex/no vortex, money fungals, etc... OP ? Infestor/broodlord isn't OP in the big scheme of the zerg race, since you can do timing attacks to cripple it or win outright before it, but leads to a one-dimensional early, midgame and way more lategame experience, pretty much like early game on TvZ was in the past, and maps/units/buildings were adjusted. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:53 rd wrote: No it doesn't, in society if something is inadequate you go to a competitor. There is no SC2 producing competitor alongside Blizzard. That, and you make the assumption that complaints are correct thus they should all be acknowledged based on the frequency they're made. SC2 is a fully functional game. The complaints at this point are marginal differences of opinion, not fixes to malfunctions rendering SC2 inoperable. People love to take SC2 for granted. The problem with arguing for low league players and balance is that they should generally improving all the time. When they don't see success they watch pro-gamers lose for entirely different reasons, making the irrational connection that they lose for the same reasons -- which aren't even concrete enough to state imbalance with full certainty. The lower league players that are prone to whine are generally the same that will do so when they hit any brick wall. The recent metagame rut of Terran has encouraged these players to come out in droves to tackle their next scapegoat, the infestor. Without an open mind they're doomed to stagnate when progamers encourage them to embrace imbalance as an excuse for their incompetence. It happens with every metagame between all races. Skill requirement can't be an argument. It will never be totally balanced in this regard, and the ladder accounts for this. It's ironic because I sympathize with the argument that two particular nerfs to Terran were especially unwarranted and flipped the metagame on it's head -- but I've opposed most balance changes. It was only until now that Blizzard has given players the chance to innovate rather than scramble the metagame every 3 months with a new patch. OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses. 2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal. | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:35 ES.Genie wrote: Because gaming is all serious business 'n shit... :/ I just don't understand it. It's little things like these that make a game lovable and enjoyable. There is demand for them in the community and it's probably really easy to implement them. But well, I guess we have to stick with battle.net 0.2. I think the real problem is that blizz doesnt want the return of bots: autokicking people who were noobs or banned, making the same game with another number after it, havin profane names on occasion.. Blizz thinks they can do it better and i still beliee thy cannot but i can see why they wont do it. Everything else DK said is pretty rational: HoTS balance on release and encourages micro and discourages BLs( and therefore discourages hive rush) , wol metagame is troublesome but not imbalanced fully or stagnant(i beleieve this is true, i only watch GSL and MLG though recently), they are being conservative with balance which i prefer. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
THANK YOU NONY! | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
Dustin Brown: Sshh Dave, can't you see i'm balancing these rocks! Just tell them it's 50-50! | ||
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Utopi
Denmark176 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:35 ES.Genie wrote: Because gaming is all serious business 'n shit... :/ I just don't understand it. It's little things like these that make a game lovable and enjoyable. There is demand for them in the community and it's probably really easy to implement them. But well, I guess we have to stick with battle.net 0.2. I couldn´t agree more. Really irrittates me that this has still not been done. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 07 2012 08:04 S_SienZ wrote: OK, first off, no one is basing anything solely off the views of low league players, even pros have cited BL Infestor as a problem, but then people just brush them off as being "biased" or "washed up foreigner" or whatever they can pull out of their asses. 2ndly, are you seriously saying that any time anyone is unhappy with one aspect of the game instead of giving feedback they should just go to another game? We've already lost players who decided to call it quits and move on to LoL and Dota 2, and that's just the pro scene. Lots of casuals have ZERO reason to feel the need to be able to split like MarineKing to be able to play on an even footing, coz there is simply no equivalent when it comes to casting fungal. Woah, you're making a lot of assumptions. My post was directed to the post in the quote. It'd help you to read it for context. "2ndly," I'm not even sure how you managed to mischaracterize my post to draw such a massive disparity in conclusion. As for your losing players argument, only a handful of pros left for mobas which were widely publicized, and they left for a variety of reasons. If casuals feel no need to improve (to the extent to be able to split like marineking) then we have a much bigger issue in that players have no encouragement to get better, and merely justifies my argument that close-mindedly putting all of the attention around "imbalance" dooms these players to stagnate. They all have the potential, it has nothing to do with fungal. Just mindset. Like, there is no "solution" to that problem other than to redesign it completely, which isn't productive without offering a balanced alternative which everyone conveniently leaves Blizzard to do. | ||
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