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Random and its place on the ladder - Page 15

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Rah
Profile Joined February 2010
United States973 Posts
August 19 2012 19:59 GMT
#281
This is like complaining about 6 pool. Get better and you won't have to worry about it.
Streaming on twitch. http://www.twitch.tv/rahsun86
babysimba
Profile Joined November 2010
10466 Posts
August 19 2012 20:01 GMT
#282
People seem to underestimate the economy differences of an early scout combined with enemy's no scout. If anything, this will actually affect the lower skill levels more, considering less effort is needed to refine a cheesy or timing-oriented builds. Of course this applies more to those random players who play to win instead of improving.

Maps also have a large part to play. Blind cheeses are less likely to work on 4 player map.

As zerg, i have to take risks in some way or another if i am behind right from the start. It's easier to play a tech/upgrade-centric style though, since playing the drone game is pretty much walking on razor's edge especially when you are behind.
If you want proper practice on ladder, just go blind greed to counter their greed. If you happen to face early cheeses, just quit and get done over with. Playing when behind is also good practice though.
turtles
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia360 Posts
August 19 2012 20:01 GMT
#283
Random is obviously really underpowered in the pro scene as almost no one plays R and absolutely no one does any good with them.

From personal experience I was stuck in silver league as R for ages and about equally good at each race. But when I chose to play as Zerg I almost instantly jumped straight up to platinum just from being able to focus on mechanics and timings. I haven't played in ages but I'm about to start again and play as random. I will be playing at least a league lower than I would if I chose one of the other races, but I will be having more fun.

So empirically random is heavily disadvantaged for GM+ and from my own experience random is heavily disadvantaged for bronze-platinum. It's possible that there could be a sweet spot in diamond and masters where being random actually helps but I see very little reason to think that would be so and it definitely would not fit the pattern.
JJoNeEightY
Profile Joined December 2010
United States509 Posts
August 19 2012 20:08 GMT
#284
On August 20 2012 04:49 uberism wrote:
LOL at people thinking that there is an advantage to playing random.
There is a reason why no pro player picks random.


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho

This guy qualified for one of the GSL open seasons as random.

Just saying.

People need to step their game up, though, instead of complaining and rallying for changes to the game when they are having a problem. I honestly don't even feel like the 'balance changes' that have been made throughout WoL have really been anything much more than the design team saying "Hey, guys, use these units more, like this." If queen range went back to being whatever it used to be, I'm still pretty sure we'd see these heavy queen openers in ZvT. People need to play with mindset that the problem lies with their gameplay, and not with the game itself, because 99.999999% of the time, it does. Oye.
MyFirstProbe
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands294 Posts
August 19 2012 20:11 GMT
#285
It's not that big of a deal to gateway expand vs Zerg, a few pro-players have experimented with this (Nony, Naniwa (?)), so if it works on their level, it shuold definitly work at bronze to masters level...
reki-
Profile Joined July 2008
Netherlands327 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 20:16:03
August 19 2012 20:13 GMT
#286
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".

Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand
>BD
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
August 19 2012 20:14 GMT
#287
You should be able to do a 1gate expo PvZ no problem. There was a time when no one FFE'd, and even after it became standard it was a really long time before it became so exclusive... gate expands are still quite viable. You really shouldn't have such a tough time playing against random.

I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Penecks
Profile Joined August 2010
United States600 Posts
August 19 2012 20:23 GMT
#288
Not sure how anyone can have fun playing random, it's just going to be non-standard practice since a lot of players tend to freak out when against a random, either doing something weird/chessy aka what you won't see much of in a real game.

And I don't really get the "focused practice" argument, I'm mid master and often run into players with 600+ games this season alone, while I barely play enough to empty my bonus pool. Should I get a couple more scvs at the start of a game because they've had more "focused practice" than me?
straight poppin
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
August 19 2012 20:24 GMT
#289
From my limmited experience of sc2 ladder random was manageable but okay, since you can use the same opening (1 raxx FE) in all matchups and then adapt when you scout.

I'd hate playing vs random as toss, cus if they hit zerg you dont know if you can forge FE

In BW I hate random players with a passion, but that is because I am a racepicker, so people who random piss me off as I dont play zvz (add to the fact that the vast majority will throw some stupid cheese but predictable cheese at you just adds oil on the fire).

I suppose I could just quit racepickin but playing PvZ is so much more fun than ZvZ :p
In the woods, there lurks..
StevieWonder333
Profile Joined December 2011
55 Posts
August 19 2012 20:27 GMT
#290
On August 20 2012 04:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
You should practice gateway openings in PvZ to fix this problem.

Fucking Liquid Nony up in this bitch. I agree with this sentiment.
Dont-Panic
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany567 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 20:29:12
August 19 2012 20:28 GMT
#291
I recently started playing again, after 1-2 months pause. I was Zerg back then, now I switched to random. I always tell my race at the beginning of the game (whether the opponent believes it is another problem). Now here is how it went:

1. Lose a shit ton of games.
2. Play poorly, recognize how terrible you are.
3. People talking shit before the game even begins: "Oh fuck not a cheesy random again." Or after I tell my race: "Yeah, as if I would believe that."
4. Start to get better but still getting flamed eventhough I am playing a macro game every time.

I'm pretty frustrated at the moment but I know that the bad reputation is well earned by random players who just want to trick their opponent, rather than playing straight up. But here is some advice for all the non-random players. Just play safe against random. If they still win, it is only your own fault, because you should be way better than them at that matchup.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 20:31:12
August 19 2012 20:30 GMT
#292
i think the funny thing is the randomer's bad reputation is caused by bad whiners, which makes the reputation moot.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
August 19 2012 20:32 GMT
#293
On August 20 2012 05:23 Penecks wrote:
Not sure how anyone can have fun playing random, it's just going to be non-standard practice since a lot of players tend to freak out when against a random, either doing something weird/chessy aka what you won't see much of in a real game.

And I don't really get the "focused practice" argument, I'm mid master and often run into players with 600+ games this season alone, while I barely play enough to empty my bonus pool. Should I get a couple more scvs at the start of a game because they've had more "focused practice" than me?

some people play the game just for fun, not to "practice" or "get better." i dont understand how people can stand playing so seriously all the time. why turn a hobby into a job?
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
August 19 2012 20:35 GMT
#294
On August 20 2012 05:08 JJoNeEightY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 04:49 uberism wrote:
LOL at people thinking that there is an advantage to playing random.
There is a reason why no pro player picks random.


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho

This guy qualified for one of the GSL open seasons as random.

Just saying.

People need to step their game up, though, instead of complaining and rallying for changes to the game when they are having a problem. I honestly don't even feel like the 'balance changes' that have been made throughout WoL have really been anything much more than the design team saying "Hey, guys, use these units more, like this." If queen range went back to being whatever it used to be, I'm still pretty sure we'd see these heavy queen openers in ZvT. People need to play with mindset that the problem lies with their gameplay, and not with the game itself, because 99.999999% of the time, it does. Oye.


What's the point of bringing up Gumiho? He's the one and only random player to ever get through the GSL qualifiers (in 2010), only to drop out in the RO64. He switched to Terran the following season. If anything it exemplifies why no "pro" player would ever pick random.
Malaz
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany1257 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 20:38:52
August 19 2012 20:37 GMT
#295
On August 20 2012 05:23 Penecks wrote:
Not sure how anyone can have fun playing random, it's just going to be non-standard practice since a lot of players tend to freak out when against a random, either doing something weird/chessy aka what you won't see much of in a real game.


Is it really bad if games play out non-standard? For me it's way more exciting. I get bored just playing one race really quickly and yet many people in this thread whine because they can't play their one standard build they play every fucking game. Now playing one build over and over THAT would bore me to death. Well people are different I guess.
Rah
Profile Joined February 2010
United States973 Posts
August 19 2012 20:39 GMT
#296
On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:
I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races


You sure that's because of your race choice?
Streaming on twitch. http://www.twitch.tv/rahsun86
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
August 19 2012 20:43 GMT
#297
On August 20 2012 05:39 Rah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:
I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races


You sure that's because of your race choice?


You can make unrelated jokes and poke fun all you want, but when I play random I play on a different account under a different name, so what you're implying is not the case.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
xrapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States1644 Posts
August 19 2012 20:47 GMT
#298
On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:
You should be able to do a 1gate expo PvZ no problem. There was a time when no one FFE'd, and even after it became standard it was a really long time before it became so exclusive... gate expands are still quite viable. You really shouldn't have such a tough time playing against random.

I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races


Why not just flip a coin before race select to determine what race you'll be. Why must you start the game with an unfair advantage. You obviously aren't playing random solely because you like every race-- part of it is the advantage.
Everyone is either delusional, a nihlilst, or dead from suicide.
cydial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States750 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 20:50:21
August 19 2012 20:50 GMT
#299
On August 19 2012 22:07 Kasu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to).

I disagree. Its absolutely not hard to have a safe opening that "branches" out into race-specific strats after you scout. The whole "random players get a secret build-order" thing only applies if you get unlucky on a 4-player map.

The exceptions to this are PvZ (but GW expands aren't that bad, see Adelscott) and ZvR where you gamble slightly on pool- or hatch-first. Terrans in particular have it easy vs random, I 1-rax FE and very rarely have to do anything different to the normal matchups.


Online or irl it fucking baffles me sometimes how people say things and then don't realize the contradictions they're making.

You say random is fine as is, then later say that there are situations where 4 player maps occur and you get, "Unlucky."

........

Random needs to display the race before the match starts, it makes no sense in a competitive game for some gimmicky wins to be allowed based on a computer generated number.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-19 20:51:30
August 19 2012 20:50 GMT
#300
On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:
You should be able to do a 1gate expo PvZ no problem. There was a time when no one FFE'd, and even after it became standard it was a really long time before it became so exclusive... gate expands are still quite viable. You really shouldn't have such a tough time playing against random.

I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races


You're getting trashtalked because you start the game with hidden information whereas the opponent does not. There's simply no reason for random to not show what race it selects for you on the loading screen. It limits one players' early game options whereas the other can act with full knowledge of the matchup he is playing.

You can't 6 pool, proxy gate or cannon rush when you don't know what race your opponent is spawning and you have to scout earlier to account for all the variables that the unknown race brings, yet the random player can do whatever he pleases because he has been randomly assigned a significant information advantage.

The notion that random players deserve an edge because they have to learn more MU's than other players is ridiculous. If you choose to play 3 races instead of one you're accepting the burden of having to learn 3 times more. You can't willingly choose to play with such a handicap and then pretend you're entitled to some arbitrary equaliser.
I think esports is pretty nice.
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