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Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum.
Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players.
So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE).
I understand many players will not agree with this, but why?
My personal opinion is this:
A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong).
Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience.
Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why.
To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself.
Edit: My response to this thread on page 47
Just to say, I didn't expect this thread to get as many hits and spark as big of a debate as this when I made it.
With the benefit of hindsight, I would have not called the thread "random and its place on ladder". I understand this title made many random players assume I was insulting them personally for playing random. As a result I would like to, and have done many times in this thread, clarify I was not out to attack random players personally, just the mechanic. Had I known that this thread would have been as "popular" as this, I'd have named it something like "random in its current form".
That said, I still standby my original stance of personally believing that showing the actual race (with no indication that the player is random) is something I, and a few others would like to see as a personal preference.
Once again, apologies for any offence caused.
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If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean. 
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I play random in diamond for fun on a 2nd account because I like all races and it gives a good overview on the matchups, I tell my race at the beginning of the game and I don't cheese.. And in my experience random player don't cheese that much, I get cheesed a lot more by terrible protoss players that only proxy/canon rush or 1 base all in :/
But I agree that random players that don't tell their race are stupid, because it doesn't make a good game for them either. If your opponent is forced to pick a sub optimal BO, you won't learn anything if you win because of it, and you won't learn anything useful on the matchup either if the game goes weird since the beginning. So yeah you'll win ladder points, but it's not a good way to improve in my opinion. Rather tell your race, play good standard games, and learn to play the matchups properly.
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i think it matters no matter what races your opponent spwans.
You have to scout for proxies in cases he is toss and i don't probe scout against terran (but you have to against random). So it messes up your build no matter what race he is. The worst case is like you said you spwan on daybreak against zerg you get gateway first against hatch first. good luck with that game!
But then again to play random in a macro game is a lot more difficult. Me personally i really suck offrace. It's a lot of more stuff you have to know and do (macro, micro and gameknowledge). So even if you spawn with a disadvantage against a random player you normally have a bid of an advantage in the macro game i feel.
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Random players i experience are just cheesey. I just 4 gate them as protoss nowadays, as it works for all 3 races and crushes whatever shit they're trying to pull.
I played terran as plat and protoss atm as silver / gold and just experience cheese.
The way to get around random players is to just to standard builds that work as openers against all 3 races. For protoss something like a 1 gate FE or 4 gate works well. You want to be able to defend against cheesey crap and probably send out a scout earlier
Chances are random players are either cheesers, or worse with that race and matchup then you are. You have the advantage.
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Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to).
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i play random (mid-diamond) and I don't cheese much then anyone (pretty rarely). But i won't tell my race if someone ask.
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Also, while this seems like a small point to bring up, as a follow up point, pros will never have to deal with random players. If Blizzard wants to make the ladder similar to tournaments as they say, random is directly countering that philosophy.
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I dont know, when I play random I just announce my race because I dont give a shit about useless ladder wins. Dont see many randoms do this though, in fact, most of them cant even play straight up but try to bad cheese. I always scout for inbase crap on 2player maps and around my base for proxie stargates/starport or other silly crap.
This is my experience in masters EU anyways.
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I don't care, I just go 1 rax FE and depo scout. When I play random on my smurf acc I reveal my race if opponent asks nicely 
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as random, normaly i always tell race even from my own, if not if someone ask me i 100% say
if they start game with "lol fu rnd" and "op rnd idiot" or any other flame obviously i not even not tell my race i go for the hardest cheese shit out there because bm must be punished
random is way way harder to master because its 9 not 3 matchups ! even 10 with rnd vs rnd ^^
so for a random player hes behind every mu to you because he have less practice so the random haters just hate rnd because they not strong enough to play rnd theirself
normaly random players wanna enjoy every race mu so they noramly not cheese that much ... just if they get a mu they hate like zvz or something crappy
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Another thing is that, when you play random, you will have a good race and a bad race. For me, if I roll protoss vs terran or zerg, I'll have a hard time. But if I roll Zerg, it will go much better. Like if I would play P, I would end up plat but Z or T would be high diamond. So i end up mid/low diamond
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That's kind of the point of random as many people have said in the past, they have to learn all 3 races and in return you can't see what race they are. I'd recommend just going with a basic opening against random that can work against all 3 races, then just scout somewhat early and you can just go for a gateway expand against zerg.
I've always thought that not stating the Random's race was weird too at first, but I mean you barely see random on ladder and it just mixes it up a little, it's not really a big deal imo.
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On August 19 2012 21:59 Chronos. wrote:
That's kind of the point of random as many people have said in the past, they have to learn all 3 races and in return you can't see what race they are. I'd recommend just going with a basic opening against random that can work against all 3 races, then just scout somewhat early and you can just go for a gateway expand against zerg.
I've always thought that not stating the Random's race was weird too at first, but I mean you barely see random on ladder and it just mixes it up a little, it's not really a big deal imo.
Random is more common than you think on the EU ladder in Plat-Diamond.
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The thing with telling is do you believe them? Do you really want to FFE against Zerg and then they are toss and just 4 gate you?^^
i never got lied to but i usually also don't depend on that information too much.
I usually don't ask because i think its a bid bm to ask for an advantage when its the goal of the game is to win against the opponent.
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On August 19 2012 21:50 justinpal wrote:If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean.
I've played against Random players who lie about the race they've randomly rolled... and so it's very hard to ever trust an opponent who offers up free information.
But that's very nice of you
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For people who are playing random but aren't doing it to throw off their opponents game plan (even if you say in start of game, I can't always trust you, from exp.), why don't you just consciously cycle through each race (play T->P->Z) or use a random number generator mod 3 to decide? It's not that hard to tab out in the start of the game and decide and than queue again.
As a Terran it doesn't affect me too much because 1rax cc is safe against everything except marine-tank-banshee allin and 4gate blink on some maps, but for Toss/Zerg I think it makes such a huge difference it's not worth playing out a normal game. If you're playing to get better, you'll never face a random in any tourny env. and if you're playing for fun, you might not enjoying playing vs a random for any variety of reasons from being behind from the start to random players propensity for being cheesy (not all, just my exp of masses of 2base pushes) to anything else.
Not saying I hate random at all or think it's stupid or anything; it just confuses me why people who say they're playing random to experience every race (i.e. not get a random advantage) don't just randomly choose their race, instead of playing random.
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It's annoying but it has it's place in the ladder, you just can't do things like forge fe vs random. Open 1 gate fe or even cheese the hell out of random players. Don't expect to play the same way you would if you knew their race beforehand.
You haven't remotely lost if you can't blindly forge fe so we can conclude there is no problem.
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On August 19 2012 22:03 teamamerica wrote:For people who are playing random but aren't doing it to throw off their opponents game plan (even if you say in start of game, I can't always trust you, from exp.), why don't you just consciously cycle through each race (play T->P->Z) or use a random number generator mod 3 to decide? It's not that hard to tab out in the start of the game and decide and than queue again. As a Terran it doesn't affect me too much because 1rax cc is safe against everything except marine-tank-banshee allin and 4gate blink on some maps, but for Toss/Zerg I think it makes such a huge difference it's not worth playing out a normal game. If you're playing to get better, you'll never face a random in any tourny env. and if you're playing for fun, you might not enjoying playing vs a random for any variety of reasons from being behind from the start to random players propensity for being cheesy (not all, just my exp of masses of 2base pushes) to anything else. Not saying I hate random at all or think it's stupid or anything; it just confuses me why people who say they're playing random to experience every race (i.e. not get a random advantage) don't just randomly choose their race, instead of playing random.
I think a big part of why they don't cycle races is the random wins portraits/achievements.
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Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it.
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On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to).
I disagree. Its absolutely not hard to have a safe opening that "branches" out into race-specific strats after you scout. The whole "random players get a secret build-order" thing only applies if you get unlucky on a 4-player map.
The exceptions to this are PvZ (but GW expands aren't that bad, see Adelscott) and ZvR where you gamble slightly on pool- or hatch-first. Terrans in particular have it easy vs random, I 1-rax FE and very rarely have to do anything different to the normal matchups.
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I play random myself, for one simple reason: I simply can't decide which race I want to play and I like not knowing with which race I will end up when I click the matchmaking button.
If I'm asked what my race is, I will always tell my opponent. Just ask the next person that plays random. Too bad, only the ones that won't take advantage of their inherited advantage by cheesing you will answer truthfully.
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Totally agree, I really see no reason for that HUGE advantage they get by having their race concealed. I mean firstly you ALWAYS have to send out an early scout, and sometimes you can just get bad luck and be beaten by proxy rax/6pool/2gate proxy. They should play random because they like to play all different and make it more exciting, but what really happens is them starting off with a huge advantage over the enemy player which is completely unnecessary, it just messes up the ladder.
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I have played Random, but would always tell my opponent my race. This obviously doesn't do anything as there is no reason to trust me. I would prefer it if the game just showed my race on the load screen. There is no reason random players should have an advantage from the start; the race they get is just as strong as if they chose it at the quick match menu.
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If I face a random, I usually 6pool. Fact is, If it's a map where I can't scout them before 14 supply, my build order will be wrong/bad. If I don't hatch first against a terran, I'm way behind. If I do hatch first against a protoss, it might work out, or I might get fucked by cannons. If its random and they rolled zerg, they're probably also cheesing since they know I'm zerg too.
Yeah, you can kinda make speedling expand work in all matchups, But I just take the opportunity to practice my cheese and micro. Terrans who wall off in time auto-win, but they probably would win anyways if I didn't 15hatch.
Basically random is a problem on big 4p maps where even an early scout (9-11 supply) might not find them in time.
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On August 19 2012 22:11 Skiblet wrote:
Totally agree, I really see no reason for that HUGE advantage they get by having their race concealed. I mean firstly you ALWAYS have to send out an early scout, and sometimes you can just get bad luck and be beaten by proxy rax/6pool/2gate proxy. They should play random because they like to play all different and make it more exciting, but what really happens is them starting off with a huge advantage over the enemy player which is completely unnecessary, it just messes up the ladder.
It's not a huge advantage and besides, if you've both got equal experience you've spent 3 times as many hours on your race as your opponent has. I'd say that's more significant than being in the dark for a short period and sending an early scout (which is not a bad thing anyway). I'm always confident vs random simply because I know I'm going to be better at whatever mu we end up in.
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On August 19 2012 22:07 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to). I disagree. Its absolutely not hard to have a safe opening that "branches" out into race-specific strats after you scout. The whole "random players get a secret build-order" thing only applies if you get unlucky on a 4-player map. The exceptions to this are PvZ (but GW expands aren't that bad, see Adelscott) and ZvR where you gamble slightly on pool- or hatch-first. Terrans in particular have it easy vs random, I 1-rax FE and very rarely have to do anything different to the normal matchups.
The fact is that facing a random makes you predictable, and being unpredictable is a huge part of the early game, especially for terrans. When I play random against a terran, I know for sure he'll be doing a 1 rax FE or some crazy proxy 2 racks, whereas a terran entering a specific matchup, versus protoss for example, has an insane amount of possibilities at his disposal, possibilities which, as possibilities, count and influence the matchup. As MC and Byun said not long ago for example, PvT seems slightly protoss favored if the terran keeps going 1 rax FE, but the matchup find its balance in the fact that there are a ton of terran openers (in the terms of Byun : "I can use strategy"). Even on the ladder, such things count ; you're much better off with your opponent wondering what you're doing rather than knowing you're going for a 1 rax FE before even scouting.
But as I said, to me this advantage of random is not game breaking, just compensating for the slightly superior level of the non-random player. To sum it up really, ask any person you want, everyone will answer you that they play different vs random and vs a protoss/terran/zerg. The matchup versus random is actually a matchup on its won.
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Are you telling me you can't ever beat a Zerg with a 1 gate expand or a Terran with a 14 pool?
You give up very little by not knowing your opponent's race at the very beginning. He's giving up way more than you are by having to learn all of the different match ups as opposed to just a couple.
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I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games.
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actually it is really hard to notice random players, as they normally choose their race beforehand and you will never notice if you play one. Unless you check their profile. Anyway if they are after the double wins for achievements (if you win you get one for the race and one for random race!), they normally announce their race, or tell you when you ask.
The ones not doing this most likely enjoy the advantage that comes with it. Well they only have the advantage if you let it happen. There are enough openers each race can do without scouting fast and falling behind. They are different from the standard, but in general you end up being better off against random players who abuse their random advantage.
Of course you can chose the easy way and leave against random players. (another reason why people play random, when i did random ago for another achievement i won every 5th game because someone left the game)
Anyway do ask the race at the start and do a worker scout anyway and do a random save build order. Random players hiding beind it, usually overextend themself one way or the other you can easily win with an aggressive early game.
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This game is for fun and random is so silly, that it is entertaining again. I just counter the silliness of playing against a race that I don't know with a stupid proxy. Problem solved.
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If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean.
The problem is that a lot of people are not like you ;P
I agree with OP, playing random should be an option, but it should not affect my play. i think playing random gives an unfair advantage.
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Holy fucking balance whine, Batman,
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On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games.
The Ladder isn't the pro-scene.
Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game?
See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong.
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On August 19 2012 22:34 garlicface wrote:
Holy fucking balance whine, Batman,
At what point did I complain about balance?
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On August 19 2012 22:35 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games. The Ladder isn't the pro-scene. Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game? See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong.
The ladder is not the pro scene, you are correct, but Blizzard have made the statement many many times that they like the idea of ladder being really competetive and tournament like.
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On August 19 2012 22:35 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:34 garlicface wrote:
Holy fucking balance whine, Batman, At what point did I complain about balance?
PvZ under the guise of PvR(Z).
+And the "random player advantage" is a joke. You want to compare this to the proscene? Show me random player that is currently finding success in the proscene. I'll leave your thread now, but I see this as little more than a PvZ balance whine.
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On August 19 2012 22:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games. The Ladder isn't the pro-scene. Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game? See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong. The ladder is not the pro scene, you are correct, but Blizzard have made the statement many many times that they like the idea of ladder being really competetive and tournament like.
The Ladder is already competitive, they never said they wanted the ladder to be more tournament like, they said they like using maps from tournaments they never wanted to change the ladder to be more tournament like, otherwise we'd be playing best of 3's on the ladder.
The point is here, as it is now. Randoms are giving up something in order to play random, on par or greater than what their opponents are giving up when they face them.
Take that away and it just becomes a one way street.
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On August 19 2012 22:40 garlicface wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 22:34 garlicface wrote:
Holy fucking balance whine, Batman, At what point did I complain about balance? PvZ under the guise of PvR(Z).
Lol okay then.
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On August 19 2012 22:29 FeyFey wrote:
actually it is really hard to notice random players, as they normally choose their race beforehand and you will never notice if you play one. Unless you check their profile. Anyway if they are after the double wins for achievements (if you win you get one for the race and one for random race!), they normally announce their race, or tell you when you ask.
The ones not doing this most likely enjoy the advantage that comes with it. Well they only have the advantage if you let it happen. There are enough openers each race can do without scouting fast and falling behind. They are different from the standard, but in general you end up being better off against random players who abuse their random advantage.
Of course you can chose the easy way and leave against random players. (another reason why people play random, when i did random ago for another achievement i won every 5th game because someone left the game)
Anyway do ask the race at the start and do a worker scout anyway and do a random save build order. Random players hiding beind it, usually overextend themself one way or the other you can easily win with an aggressive early game.
In addition to this, I feel a common misconception about random is that they don't understand the race they're playing as well as a player who only plays one race. The thing with random is that their MMR is not necessarily indicative of their proficiency with a race (instead it's an average of the races), because they will likely have strong races and weak races, especially if the random players used to only play one race.
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On August 19 2012 22:45 ThunderBum wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:29 FeyFey wrote:
actually it is really hard to notice random players, as they normally choose their race beforehand and you will never notice if you play one. Unless you check their profile. Anyway if they are after the double wins for achievements (if you win you get one for the race and one for random race!), they normally announce their race, or tell you when you ask.
The ones not doing this most likely enjoy the advantage that comes with it. Well they only have the advantage if you let it happen. There are enough openers each race can do without scouting fast and falling behind. They are different from the standard, but in general you end up being better off against random players who abuse their random advantage.
Of course you can chose the easy way and leave against random players. (another reason why people play random, when i did random ago for another achievement i won every 5th game because someone left the game)
Anyway do ask the race at the start and do a worker scout anyway and do a random save build order. Random players hiding beind it, usually overextend themself one way or the other you can easily win with an aggressive early game. In addition to this, I feel a common misconception about random is that they don't understand the race they're playing as well as a player who only plays one race. The thing with random is that their MMR is not necessarily indicative of their proficiency with a race (instead it's an average of the races), because they will likely have strong races and weak races, especially if the random players used to only play one race.
You're not looking at this like a random player.
Random players, most of them anyway, don't have strong or weak races, they have strong or weak match ups.
Personally TvZ and ZvT is currently my best match up. Meanwhile PvP and ZvZ have consistently been my weakest match ups.
When you play all 3 races you stop seeing things on a race basis but more on a match up basis.
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On August 19 2012 22:47 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:45 ThunderBum wrote:On August 19 2012 22:29 FeyFey wrote:
actually it is really hard to notice random players, as they normally choose their race beforehand and you will never notice if you play one. Unless you check their profile. Anyway if they are after the double wins for achievements (if you win you get one for the race and one for random race!), they normally announce their race, or tell you when you ask.
The ones not doing this most likely enjoy the advantage that comes with it. Well they only have the advantage if you let it happen. There are enough openers each race can do without scouting fast and falling behind. They are different from the standard, but in general you end up being better off against random players who abuse their random advantage.
Of course you can chose the easy way and leave against random players. (another reason why people play random, when i did random ago for another achievement i won every 5th game because someone left the game)
Anyway do ask the race at the start and do a worker scout anyway and do a random save build order. Random players hiding beind it, usually overextend themself one way or the other you can easily win with an aggressive early game. In addition to this, I feel a common misconception about random is that they don't understand the race they're playing as well as a player who only plays one race. The thing with random is that their MMR is not necessarily indicative of their proficiency with a race (instead it's an average of the races), because they will likely have strong races and weak races, especially if the random players used to only play one race. You're not looking at this like a random player. Random players, most of them anyway, don't have strong or weak races, they have strong or weak match ups. Personally TvZ and ZvT is currently my best match up. Meanwhile PvP and ZvZ have consistently been my weakest match ups. When you play all 3 races you stop seeing things on a race basis but more on a match up basis.
I was a random player. Understanding a matchup does not translate to being able to play both sides equally.
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On August 19 2012 22:50 ThunderBum wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 22:45 ThunderBum wrote:On August 19 2012 22:29 FeyFey wrote:
actually it is really hard to notice random players, as they normally choose their race beforehand and you will never notice if you play one. Unless you check their profile. Anyway if they are after the double wins for achievements (if you win you get one for the race and one for random race!), they normally announce their race, or tell you when you ask.
The ones not doing this most likely enjoy the advantage that comes with it. Well they only have the advantage if you let it happen. There are enough openers each race can do without scouting fast and falling behind. They are different from the standard, but in general you end up being better off against random players who abuse their random advantage.
Of course you can chose the easy way and leave against random players. (another reason why people play random, when i did random ago for another achievement i won every 5th game because someone left the game)
Anyway do ask the race at the start and do a worker scout anyway and do a random save build order. Random players hiding beind it, usually overextend themself one way or the other you can easily win with an aggressive early game. In addition to this, I feel a common misconception about random is that they don't understand the race they're playing as well as a player who only plays one race. The thing with random is that their MMR is not necessarily indicative of their proficiency with a race (instead it's an average of the races), because they will likely have strong races and weak races, especially if the random players used to only play one race. You're not looking at this like a random player. Random players, most of them anyway, don't have strong or weak races, they have strong or weak match ups. Personally TvZ and ZvT is currently my best match up. Meanwhile PvP and ZvZ have consistently been my weakest match ups. When you play all 3 races you stop seeing things on a race basis but more on a match up basis. I was a random player. Understanding a matchup does not translate to being able to play both sides equally.
That's true, I was just using myself as an example. For some reason I really get the current Terran vs Zerg metagame from both sides, but historically my ZvT was usually much better than my TvZ.
In the past my best match ups were ZvP and PvT, but for some reason I struggle holding off Immortal Sentry pushes so it has pushed down my proficiency with that match up.
But my point was, I don't think most Random players have strong or weak races more that they have strong or weak match ups. Each match up has its own set of skillsets and mechanics, not every one comes naturally to the same player.
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I play random my self and I would like to have option to show my race to my opponent.
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whenever I play random players I just proxy 11/11, they always play greedy and scout late on accounts of their so called 'random advantage'
its hardly an advantage if I'm just gonna cheese the shit out of you anyway
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I go nexus first against randoms lol
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On August 19 2012 22:57 ...what wrote:
whenever I play random players I just proxy 11/11, they always play greedy and scout late on accounts of their so called 'random advantage'
its hardly an advantage if I'm just gonna cheese the shit out of you anyway
The one season I used to play Terran as, I got cheesed FAR less often than I do as Random.
I get hit with completely weird timings, and builds that I only see once or twice ever on the ladder.
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Try to learn some 1 gate fe against random zerg, it works and doesn't set you behind.
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now i think about it, i should play random. i would never waste time tilting and raging at my losses... "oh i lost as terran, well my best race is zerg anyways who cares trolol"
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Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to.
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I often feel like I get cheesed more often as random, even though I rarely cheese.
I'd like random as it is to stay, but I'd also like the option to show my race; it can't hurt and has literally no downside.
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i completely agree with OP. I'm a P in masters and i have never beaten a random(z) i think.
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I'm a plat toss and I almost always just leave the match when playing randoms. I'm trying to learn certain builds vrs each race, and trying to guess which build would be best vrs a random is a waste of practice time. Sure, you could try to do a build that is 'safe' vrs everything, but not worth it, IMO. Especially with the % of randoms that cheese (6 pool, double proxy rax/gates, etc etc)
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I play random exclusively. I don't tell anyone my race either, and I would be annoyed if the mechanics changed such that my opponent knew my race.
I get no pleasure out of copying builds and practicing the same build over and over again. It's just not fun. I like to make up builds on the fly and play games out in strange ways (sometimes very painfully). I prefer it when my opponent is in that state too and we can see who the better player is at scouting and adjusting... not who copied and executed the build order better.
I prefer that my opponent can't just follow his usual build that he's copied from a pro, watched pros execute 1000 times, and practiced 100s of times himself. I prefer that he actually has to think on his feet and play the game in a slightly uncomfortable position. I prefer that my opponent actually has to scout me if he wants to know anything about me. I prefer that many super early cheeses are only viable in specific matchups and my opponent would have to gamble extra hard to try it on me. I prefer the chaos of random and the interesting games it can create.
If you're playing against me on ladder, you're not going pro anytime soon. So the idea that it's not real practice is just garbage... you need to work on your mechanics and basic decision making, not worry about whether some specific build order is the absolutely most optimal against race X. Even if you have to play against randoms at the top of the ladder, just remember that if they're random at the top of the ladder, there's nothing to stop them from joining a Playhem Daily or a TL Open. So you better be prepared for them.
On August 19 2012 22:03 teamamerica wrote:For people who are playing random but aren't doing it to throw off their opponents game plan (even if you say in start of game, I can't always trust you, from exp.), why don't you just consciously cycle through each race (play T->P->Z) or use a random number generator mod 3 to decide? It's not that hard to tab out in the start of the game and decide and than queue again. As a Terran it doesn't affect me too much because 1rax cc is safe against everything except marine-tank-banshee allin and 4gate blink on some maps, but for Toss/Zerg I think it makes such a huge difference it's not worth playing out a normal game. If you're playing to get better, you'll never face a random in any tourny env. and if you're playing for fun, you might not enjoying playing vs a random for any variety of reasons from being behind from the start to random players propensity for being cheesy (not all, just my exp of masses of 2base pushes) to anything else. Not saying I hate random at all or think it's stupid or anything; it just confuses me why people who say they're playing random to experience every race (i.e. not get a random advantage) don't just randomly choose their race, instead of playing random.
So random players should go through all that trouble to please you instead of simply clicking the button and finding a match? Easy choice.
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I play on ladder as random! Never has a player asked me for my race and have I refused to say it!
but to be honest i never announce my race at the start they realy have to ask me!
For people that say random are just cheesers You would be surprised. Also as I started with toss then switched to terran then started with random!
People who think they have an advantge is some matchup like the mirrors in my experience I win most of the mirrors because I think build orders are evenmore important!
last 20 ZvZ have won 18 just because of hatching first
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I hate random. Playing versus random players seems less worthwhile and irrelevant to the other three match-ups. I also mostly find ZvZ boring, to the point that, because I want to enjoy the game, I often quit ZvZs. Having random means that if I want to play it out and just deal with zvz if it pops up, I'll possibly be at a further disadvantage than I usually would in that match-up, but you don't always feel like quitting if you haven't done it in the first 20 seconds.
What percentage of players play as random these days? I feel like most non-random players would prefer the random player's race to be revealed at the loading screen and some random players would not mind this either, so if 4% of players were random, the current set-up caters to 2% of the player-base.
On August 19 2012 22:05 Bojas wrote: Open 1 gate fe or even cheese the hell out of random players. Don't expect to play the same way you would if you knew their race beforehand. So for the sake of practice and people trying to improve against non-random players, each game involving a random player is often not even relevant practice against the race the random player gets. Not everyone is going to be a top tournament player at any stage, but that doesn't mean that other people don't still want and enjoy the same training situation (such as not really having to worry about random players because of how few there are in tournaments).
On August 19 2012 23:07 RenSC2 wrote:
So random players should go through all that trouble to please you instead of simply clicking the button and finding a match? Easy choice.
How the hell do you find a problem with that? You play this game, surely your brain is capable of enduring the stress and the effort required to make a decision on which race to play at the particular moment and simply click the appropriate button first.
Pick a race, any race. Play it until you feel like swapping. Swap when that urge arrives. It does seem pretty easy.
You only need bother with random number generators and cycling your race after every game if you personally find the variety that important to you. If you're simply looking to improve your play as all of the three races, you shouldn't even need the random rolls, but some people don't seem to like making decisions or can't always decide, so instead of asking you to manually roll a die and tell the program which race you got, it just does it for you, but hides the result from the other player. People are not asking you to go to more trouble, simply to allow the result to be shown.
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On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
... If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
Ya, this basically is exactly what I feel.
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While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand.
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TvP - 1RaxFE
TvZ - 1RaxFE
TvT - 1RaxFE
TvRandom...
...1RaxFE
Nope, no effect at all 
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As others have stated, Random players have an inherent advantage at the start of the game due to knowing the race of their opponent while their opponent doesn't know their race. Now I know a lot of Random players have told me that "but it's fair because we have to learn all three races huehueheu" which is a bullshit argument and you know it. If you're going to put yourself at a disadvantage by splitting your attention between 3 races then so be it, but it's still not right to put your opponent at an inherent disadvantage to "balance" it out because no matter how you slice it if you play random you will not ever get "real" or "normal" games and you're aren't ever actually learning all 3 races anyways, you're just getting small windows to what playing all 3 races is like. I've played Random myself a fair bit too but I don't delude myself by thinking I'm not giving myself an unfair advantage, I am giving myself an unfair advantage if I play random and I damn well know it. But when I do play random, probably 80% of the matches are cheese, this is entirely different than if I were to just randomly "pick" races because everyone uses fucked up build orders and absurd cheeses and it's an entirely different ladder experience.
Imo Blizzard should leave random except once the game starts it should show your opponent which race you have been given, but till then if you play random just know and accept that you're playing the game by giving yourself an unfair advantage, don't lie to yourself and convince yourself it's anything but.
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On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand.
Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups
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Can't do a standard opening. I used to 3gate expand but honestly it was just an annoying matchup and the majority of them cheesed or were absurdly greedy. So now I just cheese literally every random I play. Beat most of them too. I don't care if I don't know what race you're playing for my opener, proxy gateways and 4- gate can be made to work regardless. And whether I win or lose it just gets the game out of the way.
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On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to.
I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match.
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I play random, simply because I like the variety.
As such, I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't just show my adversary my race.
I can see his race, so it's only fair he should see mine.
The argument that I have less refined play and thus should be given some sort of compensation is kind of ridiculous, if I can't beat my opponent straight up, then my MMR will simply decrease a little and I get an opponent according to my skill.
It ridiculous how much hostility you get for playing random.
I always announce my race and say GL HF, but usually people just tell me to shut up and die of cancer, or accuse me of lying, cheesing etc..
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I play Random. I don't tell my race unless I want to try out a specific build in the matchup I'm in and I'd like the other guy to be playing optimally.
Most of the OP's arguments against Random boil down to what I perceive to be nit-picky. Yes, you do need to FFE in PvZ to be at the top of your game. There is always one optimal thing to do in every situation, down to the placement of your first pylon or when you take your fourth base. Of course playing against a random takes away that advantage of playing the optimal build you learned from X pro or discovered works for you really well by trial and error; it also takes away the advantage of the Random player because he has to learn 9 different matchups. So you get stuck doing a slightly-sub-optimal "safe" build, and I've had to play 9 times as long as you to be at the same MMR as you (in theory). But you have 3 times as much practice in the matchup we find ourselves in.
So do your "safe" build, and if I'm just another "HUR DUR RANDOM MAKES CHEESE EASIER" player, your safe build nets you a free win. But if I'm a regular guy just playing to improve my skill, your safe build will put you on even footing by the midgame because I myself will have to open with a "safe" build, too. I don't know how you react to knowing you're playing a random, and as random I feel like I get cheesed a whole fucking lot. So we both open "safe," however, your build isn't the 100% most optimal for this matchup, and maybe I get to cut a few corners because I know I've forced you to play a little bit safer to cover all your bases.
But, as others have said, Random is a race unto its self, and you can use the knowledge that I'm not a pro at this matchup to your advantage; do some crazy shit that requires a specific counter/micro maneuver/response, maybe I'll fuck it up. Or open safe, and scout like you should be doing, and figure out how I'm messing up and how you can take advantage of it, like you should. Or just quit when the game starts and move on, I seriously think like a maximum of 5% of people play Random, and throwing one match in 20 isn't going to mess your MMR up that bad.
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On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match.
Because that's a major inconvenience?
Why should I go through such a hassle if I can simply use the dice Blizzard provide?
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On August 19 2012 23:23 kafkaesque wrote:
I play random, simply because I like the variety.
As such, I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't just show my adversary my race.
I can see his race, so it's only fair he should see mine.
The argument that I have less refined play and thus should be given some sort of compensation is kind of ridiculous, if I can't beat my opponent straight up, then my MMR will simply decrease a little and I get an opponent according to my skill.
It ridiculous how much hostility you get for playing random.
I always announce my race and say GL HF, but usually people just tell me to shut up and die of cancer, or accuse me of lying, cheesing etc..
Well if you want people to know your race your only option is to not play random, I know that on a few occasions I personally have had random players tell me their race and turn out to be lying, so really there is no reason to believe when a random tells you their race. There are 2 type of random players, those who do it for variety and those who do it for the advantage.
Because that's a major inconvenience?
Why should I go through such a hassle if I can simply use the dice Blizzard provide?
Because the dice blizzard provides only gives you a VERY skewed experience of what the ladder is like.
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Its a pretty hard tradeoff if you ask me, sure they get an advantage early game because you have to scout earlier and do a safer build but they have to know 9 matchups and you only have to know 3.
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On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups
And you know that from what experience?
In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
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I play random, and i get cheesed a lot by people that say they are "countering my cheese" because they assume me to be cheesing because i am random.
If you ask i will tell you my race, and i almost never cheese.
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On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match.
Its fun to not know what you're going to be doing until the game loads. Makes you think on your feet. You don't have time to sit there looking at the loading screen thinking "YES, PvZ on Antiga, my favorite! I'll FFE, get blink, yadda yadda. I'll expand at X:XX and then take my third if my push goes well, otherwise turtle for a minute and warp in some zealots, then take my third." In my head, my thoughts are racing. "Oh god, Cloud Kingdom? I better watch out for drop play. I need to protect this attack path, and if I'm terran take this base as my third, if I'm toss this one, or if I'm zerg I should just 6 pool for the hell of it. Oh man, I hope he doesn't cheese me. What cheeses are good on this map? Better check here here and here for proxies. Do I need to worry about that?" Etc.
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I play random ,albeit at a silver level, I always tell them my race because I like practice in all the matchups, but when I do that 1/10 times I actually get cheesed by the other person which is pretty irratating  .
I really wish TL had a random race icons in options though
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i usually tend to do more aggressive startegies versus random users. And scout scout scout!
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On August 19 2012 23:27 flyingteapot wrote:I play random ,albeit at a silver level, I always tell them my race because I like practice in all the matchups, but when I do that 1/10 times I actually get cheesed by the other person which is pretty irratating . I really wish TL had a random race icons in options though
Agreed. I'd love a dice icon. :/
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On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying:
In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
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On August 19 2012 23:29 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying: Show nested quote +In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame.
Except your experience means far less than mine because I'm a random player.
So 100% of my games are RvX, vs the what? 10% (if that) of your games that are PvR?
It's a numbers thing my friend. I've played far more random games than you have. I have a much bigger pool of experience to pull from.
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I think random adds an interesting dynamic. I think you need a build specifically for PvR. Just because you can't FFE doesn't mean you're behind. Naniwa in the GSL for example has shown some interesting gate first place without even attempting to wall-in. Granted he knew his opponent was zerg.
I play random sometimes, and I wouldn't really mind if my race was shown because I guess I'm that 1/10 that doesn't try to cheese every time (I only cheese like 20-30% of the time that I play as random).
I think the most important thing to do against a random is put them on the defensive.
Make them react to you, don't play scared.
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On August 19 2012 23:31 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:29 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying: In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. Except your experience means far less than mine because I'm a random player. So 100% of my games are RvX, vs the what? 10% (if that) of your games that are PvR? It's a numbers thing my friend. I've played far more random games than you have. I have a much bigger pool of experience to pull from.
Fair enough, but that doesn't stop me from having an experience and expressing my grievances with randoms. And really, for this particular argument, the number of games played doesn't matter. All I'm saying is the majority of my random games played are not played to the meta game, and you are saying yours are. It doesn't matter how many each of us play.
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On August 19 2012 23:33 thurst0n wrote:
I think random adds an interesting dynamic. I think you need a build specifically for PvR. Just because you can't FFE doesn't mean you're behind. Naniwa in the GSL for example has shown some interesting gate first place without even attempting to wall-in. Granted he knew his opponent was zerg.
I play random sometimes, and I wouldn't really mind if my race was shown because I guess I'm that 1/10 that doesn't try to cheese every time (I only cheese like 20-30% of the time that I play as random).
I think the most important thing to do against a random is put them on the defensive.
Make them react to you, don't play scared.
Off topic. I've tried that Naniwa vs DRG build in practice before and I have absolutely NO clue how he pulls that off economically. It always seems like I have 0 defense or 0 economy, how he manages to balance them both together is just a work of genius.
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On August 19 2012 23:34 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:33 thurst0n wrote:
I think random adds an interesting dynamic. I think you need a build specifically for PvR. Just because you can't FFE doesn't mean you're behind. Naniwa in the GSL for example has shown some interesting gate first place without even attempting to wall-in. Granted he knew his opponent was zerg.
I play random sometimes, and I wouldn't really mind if my race was shown because I guess I'm that 1/10 that doesn't try to cheese every time (I only cheese like 20-30% of the time that I play as random).
I think the most important thing to do against a random is put them on the defensive.
Make them react to you, don't play scared. Off topic. I've tried that Naniwa vs DRG build in practice before and I have absolutely NO clue how he pulls that off economically. It always seems like I have 0 defense or 0 economy, how he manages to balance them both together is just a work of genius.
Agreed on that. Pro builds will not work in Masters or below, and that doesn't change the fact you don't know their race, so are unable to guess what may happen.
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On August 19 2012 23:18 BeeNu wrote:
As others have stated, Random players have an inherent advantage at the start of the game due to knowing the race of their opponent while their opponent doesn't know their race. Now I know a lot of Random players have told me that "but it's fair because we have to learn all three races huehueheu" which is a bullshit argument and you know it. If you're going to put yourself at a disadvantage by splitting your attention between 3 races then so be it, but it's still not right to put your opponent at an inherent disadvantage to "balance" it out because no matter how you slice it if you play random you will not ever get "real" or "normal" games and you're aren't ever actually learning all 3 races anyways, you're just getting small windows to what playing all 3 races is like. I've played Random myself a fair bit too but I don't delude myself by thinking I'm not giving myself an unfair advantage, I am giving myself an unfair advantage if I play random and I damn well know it. But when I do play random, probably 80% of the matches are cheese, this is entirely different than if I were to just randomly "pick" races because everyone uses fucked up build orders and absurd cheeses and it's an entirely different ladder experience.
Imo Blizzard should leave random except once the game starts it should show your opponent which race you have been given, but till then if you play random just know and accept that you're playing the game by giving yourself an unfair advantage, don't lie to yourself and convince yourself it's anything but.
"I'm mad because people want to have fun and interesting games full of crazy shit because one person's race was hidden. How DARE they play their game like that!"
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This topic is pretty funny.
Those who got the idea of removing random are just....Strange.
I play random, only macro, and i don't tell my race excepted if it is nicely asked.
Why ? Because i'm sorry, but i've to understand 9 mu. That's the point. U can say "Blablabla, you have to, but the opponent goes with bad opening in order to be safe".
Ok. Maybe. But he played 3x more games than me with a race, if i beat him because he did not the best opening, it's because i'm better.
I've 2000 games. If i play agaisnt something with 700 games only, i can make a non optimal opening, if i lost, he deserves his win, and he is definitely better than me.
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On August 19 2012 23:33 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:29 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying: In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. Except your experience means far less than mine because I'm a random player. So 100% of my games are RvX, vs the what? 10% (if that) of your games that are PvR? It's a numbers thing my friend. I've played far more random games than you have. I have a much bigger pool of experience to pull from. Fair enough, but that doesn't stop me from having an experience and expressing my grievances with randoms. And really, for this particular argument, the number of games played doesn't matter. All I'm saying is the majority of my random games played are not played to the meta game, and you are saying yours are. It doesn't matter how many each of us play.
I don't mind you expressing your opinion based off of your experience, what I have a problem with is using your minor amount of experience vs random to campaign for a change to the ladder that puts players like me at a fundamental disadvantage just because you don't like gateway expanding vs Zergs in a very small amount of games.
I didn't do anything to you to deserve that, why are you campaigning for something that would hurt my ladder experience?
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On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match.
A dice has 6 sides, not 3. It's impossible to make a 3-side-dice. XD
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I 6 pool every random player they never reveal their race and cheese a lot big waste of time.
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On August 19 2012 23:35 ChitinMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:18 BeeNu wrote:
As others have stated, Random players have an inherent advantage at the start of the game due to knowing the race of their opponent while their opponent doesn't know their race. Now I know a lot of Random players have told me that "but it's fair because we have to learn all three races huehueheu" which is a bullshit argument and you know it. If you're going to put yourself at a disadvantage by splitting your attention between 3 races then so be it, but it's still not right to put your opponent at an inherent disadvantage to "balance" it out because no matter how you slice it if you play random you will not ever get "real" or "normal" games and you're aren't ever actually learning all 3 races anyways, you're just getting small windows to what playing all 3 races is like. I've played Random myself a fair bit too but I don't delude myself by thinking I'm not giving myself an unfair advantage, I am giving myself an unfair advantage if I play random and I damn well know it. But when I do play random, probably 80% of the matches are cheese, this is entirely different than if I were to just randomly "pick" races because everyone uses fucked up build orders and absurd cheeses and it's an entirely different ladder experience.
Imo Blizzard should leave random except once the game starts it should show your opponent which race you have been given, but till then if you play random just know and accept that you're playing the game by giving yourself an unfair advantage, don't lie to yourself and convince yourself it's anything but. "I'm mad because people want to have fun and interesting games full of crazy shit because one person's race was hidden. How DARE they play their game like that!"
That isn't what he is saying. Yes, some people play random because they want to have fun in "games full of crazy shit" as you say, but other people want to practice the meta game (which includes cheese), which cannot be done vs random. I think the biggest problem is really the 4 player maps and getting unlucky scouting. Lings can be in your base (or any cheese) before you have a chance to properly react to it. If the opponent queues zerg on a 4 player map, at least you know a 6 pool is a possibility.
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On August 19 2012 23:36 Ludwigvan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match. A dice has 6 sides, not 3. It's impossible to make a 3-side-dice. XD
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/04ds3.JPG)
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On August 19 2012 23:36 Ludwigvan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match. A dice has 6 sides, not 3. It's impossible to make a 3-side-dice. XD
1-2 = T
3-4 = P
5-6 = Z
Just a thought. /shrug.
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Guys, seriously, random with same MMR than you are just better than you, if they aren't cheeser. If u loose, accept it. If they focused a race, i'm pretty sure u can add a division to their true level. So, accept it.
I may add that : Are there a lot of pro who plays random ? Because if i listen you, it's so imba...
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On August 19 2012 23:36 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:31 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:29 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:19 Tao367 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:16 CrUnKeD wrote:
While the metagame evolves random players have to evolve all 3 races, which creates much more combination of m/u types. Random players have a clear disadvantage because of that. If you can't ffe, do 3gate expo with pressure....deny their 3rd....get your immortals and sentrys up and you will have the upper hand. Except the meta game is very rarely played in RvX matchups And you know that from what experience? In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. I know from my experience. Me saying that is exactly the same as you saying: In a vast majority of my games the game plays out according to the trending metagame. Except your experience means far less than mine because I'm a random player. So 100% of my games are RvX, vs the what? 10% (if that) of your games that are PvR? It's a numbers thing my friend. I've played far more random games than you have. I have a much bigger pool of experience to pull from. Fair enough, but that doesn't stop me from having an experience and expressing my grievances with randoms. And really, for this particular argument, the number of games played doesn't matter. All I'm saying is the majority of my random games played are not played to the meta game, and you are saying yours are. It doesn't matter how many each of us play. I don't mind you expressing your opinion based off of your experience, what I have a problem with is using your minor amount of experience vs random to campaign for a change to the ladder that puts players like me at a fundamental disadvantage just because you don't like gateway expanding vs Zergs in a very small amount of games. I didn't do anything to you to deserve that, why are you campaigning for something that would hurt my ladder experience?
Nowhere in the OP did I suggest any changes to the mechanics, nor am I campaigning. I simply created the thread for a discussion on the topic, providing my opinion at the same time.
Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players.
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On August 19 2012 23:38 Tom Cruise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:36 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match. A dice has 6 sides, not 3. It's impossible to make a 3-side-dice. XD
Nobody should play random, if he has to buy these ugly fellows!
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I don't think it's possible to please everyone. Some people like variety or an extra challenge, and will enjoy the elements of those that playing for or against random brings. Some just want to play the game the exactly the way they want it played, and will resent the way random alters that.
Whatever system you use, some people are going to be happy with it and some aren't.
That said, I think having an option to display the random player's race to both players when the game is loading would be the best fit.
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pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do.
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On August 19 2012 23:37 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:35 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:18 BeeNu wrote:
As others have stated, Random players have an inherent advantage at the start of the game due to knowing the race of their opponent while their opponent doesn't know their race. Now I know a lot of Random players have told me that "but it's fair because we have to learn all three races huehueheu" which is a bullshit argument and you know it. If you're going to put yourself at a disadvantage by splitting your attention between 3 races then so be it, but it's still not right to put your opponent at an inherent disadvantage to "balance" it out because no matter how you slice it if you play random you will not ever get "real" or "normal" games and you're aren't ever actually learning all 3 races anyways, you're just getting small windows to what playing all 3 races is like. I've played Random myself a fair bit too but I don't delude myself by thinking I'm not giving myself an unfair advantage, I am giving myself an unfair advantage if I play random and I damn well know it. But when I do play random, probably 80% of the matches are cheese, this is entirely different than if I were to just randomly "pick" races because everyone uses fucked up build orders and absurd cheeses and it's an entirely different ladder experience.
Imo Blizzard should leave random except once the game starts it should show your opponent which race you have been given, but till then if you play random just know and accept that you're playing the game by giving yourself an unfair advantage, don't lie to yourself and convince yourself it's anything but. "I'm mad because people want to have fun and interesting games full of crazy shit because one person's race was hidden. How DARE they play their game like that!" That isn't what he is saying. Yes, some people play random because they want to have fun in "games full of crazy shit" as you say, but other people want to practice the meta game (which includes cheese), which cannot be done vs random. I think the biggest problem is really the 4 player maps and getting unlucky scouting. Lings can be in your base (or any cheese) before you have a chance to properly react to it. If the opponent queues zerg on a 4 player map, at least you know a 6 pool is a possibility.
So play safe. I think all conservative, safe expand builds will deal with an early pool, or other shenanigans, pretty well, and by the time you scout out his race and what he's doing, you can react to deal with his race specific cheeses that worry you. Like, if you're P, 1 gate FE. Lings come! Chrono out that zealot, mineral-walk your workers, and deal with it. Or lings never come, you scout him out, he's T. Expand, and make sure to check for proxy X or Y, and make sure your sim city at your nat is able to deal with early/2 base Terran all-ins. Just play safe, like you should always be doing anyways, and you'll win. Unless for that day you're hell bent on learning this specific cheese god damn it, then just cheese and chalk it up as a learning experience no matter how it turns out
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On August 19 2012 23:38 Tom Cruise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:36 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match. A dice has 6 sides, not 3. It's impossible to make a 3-side-dice. XD
That die has 5 sides.
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On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do.
>paid $60 for a video game
>discover a fun way to play it
>suddenly lose all respect and aympathy from other players of the same game
>I suddenly also don't care about the game
...Proceed with this dazzling display of logic, please
EDIT: Spelling fixes >_<
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On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do.
haha.
Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose.
Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem.
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On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do.
Don't be an idiot.
User was warned for this post
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On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem.
Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D
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On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem.
you should look up the definition of the word evidence. perhaps also the words ego, compensate, and justify.
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On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D
i could beat you easily with all 3 races.
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On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races.
You are from NA, i doubt it. <3
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On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3
i don't play on NA. walking into a thread of randoms trying to justify why they are so beta is pretty amusing, but i have to go.
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On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3
Hey now Mr EU server
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On August 19 2012 23:49 ChitinMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3 Hey now Mr EU server
Was just a troll, because the fact he wanted to show he has the biggest made me laugh.
Anyway, random is harder, i guess ppl who refuses to admit it are just blind. So let random in peace, plz, they are human, they deserve respect also, when they aren't only cheeser.
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On August 19 2012 23:52 Saat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:49 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3 Hey now Mr EU server Was just a troll, because the fact he wanted to show he has the biggest made me laugh. Anyway, random is harder, i guess ppl who refuses to admit it are just blind. So let random in peace, plz, they are human, they deserve respect also, when they aren't only cheeser.
I random most of the time. Its harder, but a lot more fun and rewarding. See you on the ladder, brotato chip
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Gateway first isnt a terrible opening vs zerg you really shouldn't feel behind.
In fact I think gateway first is a better opening that FFE, I have a lot more trouble vs it than FFE (High masters)
Even if you are 'behind' from not FFE you should be able to make up for that diff since you arent a random player and then natually should be better since you dodnt have to play as many matchups.
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On August 19 2012 23:53 ChitinMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:52 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:49 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3 Hey now Mr EU server Was just a troll, because the fact he wanted to show he has the biggest made me laugh. Anyway, random is harder, i guess ppl who refuses to admit it are just blind. So let random in peace, plz, they are human, they deserve respect also, when they aren't only cheeser. I random most of the time. Its harder, but a lot more fun and rewarding. See you on the ladder, brotato chip
To elaborate on just how hard random is.
Assuming you use 3 different build orders per match up.
A player who masters one race will only have to practice 9 build orders.
A player who plays Random, has to learn and practice 27 build orders.
It's not even comparable. Trying to maintain a high level of play in every single match up is insanely difficult which is why there are no professional random players despite that early game random advantage.
If the random advantage meant anything worthwhile at all, there would be at least a couple professional random players. The fact is, there aren't any because of how hard it is to play all 9 match ups at a high level.
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On August 19 2012 23:46 multiversed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. you should look up the definition of the word evidence. perhaps also the words ego, compensate, and justify.
Edit: Deleted, clearly fell for trollbait.
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On August 19 2012 23:58 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:46 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. you should look up the definition of the word evidence. perhaps also the words ego, compensate, and justify. I think your original post was a pretty clear example of someone forcing his subjective views onto other people and making assumptions about their decisions based upon his own opinions. Vindicare makes the -perfectly reasonable- inference that you think your opinion is much more important than anyone else's and you call him out for ego issues?
you are wrong.
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On August 19 2012 23:58 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:53 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:52 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:49 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3 Hey now Mr EU server Was just a troll, because the fact he wanted to show he has the biggest made me laugh. Anyway, random is harder, i guess ppl who refuses to admit it are just blind. So let random in peace, plz, they are human, they deserve respect also, when they aren't only cheeser. I random most of the time. Its harder, but a lot more fun and rewarding. See you on the ladder, brotato chip To elaborate on just how hard random is. Assuming you use 3 different build orders per match up. A player who masters one race will only have to practice 9 build orders. A player who plays Random, has to learn and practice 27 build orders. It's not even comparable. Trying to maintain a high level of play in every single match up is insanely difficult which is why there are no professional random players despite that early game random advantage. If the random advantage meant anything worthwhile at all, there would be at least a couple professional random players. The fact is, there aren't any because of how hard it is to play all 9 match ups at a high level.
that is what they signed up for, however the reality ends up being far different. you are giving yourself way too much credit.
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I'm a high diamond random. And I'm sick of this attitude. This really just feels like a "I hate the shit out of random players and I want you guys to agree with me," thread just barely disguised as a constructive discussion.
You have understand that on the ladder this game is just that for the most part, a game. As such, get over it.
That's exactly my reasoning for playing random. This is a game, and although yes I like to win and yes I do like ladder points, the number one reason I play is for my enjoyment. I've tried playing Zerg, Protoss, and Terran, and I've always come back to Random. Not only do I enjoy getting a new race every game, but I also enjoy the spontaneity of not knowing the matchup until the second the game loads. It adds a little spice and excitement to me.
The haters have to understand that there's a lot of random players that resent the reputation they've been given. Every ladder game I play where I play against a random I do the same shit you guys do. Scout all over my base, scout into the third, 9 scout their base, play super safe. I understand the reputation of Randoms, I encounter it every time I'm on the ladder. That being said I also hit a random player like once out of every 25 games and it's usually a free win when I defend their shitty cheese or all-in. So suck it up, and enjoy your free ladder points.
Another aside is that if random players were playing just for ladder points it would probably be more productive for them just to pick a race and have some well mapped out cheeses with that race. Everyone is suspicious when they play a random player. And even excluding that cheesy majority, I know most macro randoms well tell you the same thing, if they wanted to win more they would pick a race. My Protoss is heads and shoulders above my other races, it really is super easy, and if I really every wanted to wrench myself out of diamond I would just pick Toss and work on that. Alas I play for fun, not for a little star icon on my B.net profile.
The last thing I have for you is a solution. Just cheese the shit out of every random you see on the ladder. For the most part random's have less matchup knowledge than players who are solely devoted to one race. Every Terran player who's been ladder for the last 4 months has been roach bane all-ined so many times they can defend it in their sleep. I've had it done to me like twice? And have only theories on how to beat it. Every terran has gone to late game against templar colossi chargelots and understands where to position all their units to beat it. I keep picking the worst places for my vikings. And every Zerg knows how to sit on spines make a million broodlords and infestors and kill a Protoss. Well actually, that's pretty easy so I know how to do that too.
My point is you don't have to just whine and do nothing about it. Just find a solution if you hate it so much. You can't FFE against a zerg? Find a solution. You don't have to FFE every game against a zerg. Especially it today's metagame where every ZvP is quick three hatch a one base build might just kill the zerg straight up.
There's lots of options out there. Go find one.
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Playing vs random obviously gives the non random player a disadvantage. But it's all good; it adds to the game.
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Playing random myself aswell , diamond league. People often ask what race I spawnn, and insult me if I don't tell them. Of course there is the ever coming "Yeah but as random you got to learn more M-U". True. But i guess, playing random just forces the opponent to scout maybe a bit earlier than what they're used to. I personnaly don't see a problem with it, and in the case of the FFE as OP said in PvZ, you just get delayed slightly. Just deal whit it ?
And on a side note, it's saddening that random players get so much hate, (e.g because of other randoms that cheese ). I mean just getting insulted right in the beginning of the game, just because you play random is really sad.
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On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races.
Watch out guys we got a badass over here.
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On August 20 2012 00:00 multiversed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:58 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:53 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:52 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:49 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3 Hey now Mr EU server Was just a troll, because the fact he wanted to show he has the biggest made me laugh. Anyway, random is harder, i guess ppl who refuses to admit it are just blind. So let random in peace, plz, they are human, they deserve respect also, when they aren't only cheeser. I random most of the time. Its harder, but a lot more fun and rewarding. See you on the ladder, brotato chip To elaborate on just how hard random is. Assuming you use 3 different build orders per match up. A player who masters one race will only have to practice 9 build orders. A player who plays Random, has to learn and practice 27 build orders. It's not even comparable. Trying to maintain a high level of play in every single match up is insanely difficult which is why there are no professional random players despite that early game random advantage. If the random advantage meant anything worthwhile at all, there would be at least a couple professional random players. The fact is, there aren't any because of how hard it is to play all 9 match ups at a high level. that is what they signed up for, however the reality ends up being far different. you are giving yourself way too much credit.
Not enough actually, I was undershooting it a little bit.
I practice somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-6 build orders in just TvT, and around 4-5 in TvZ.
If I wanted to be realistic about how many build orders I practice on ladder and in customs it'd look more like this.
TvT: 6
TvZ: 5
TvP: 4
ZvZ: 4
ZvP: 3
ZvT: 3
PvZ: 4
PvT: 3
PvP: 4
Overall. I practice around 37 build orders that I rotate between depending on how I feel like approaching each match up. ( I go through phases where I really want to avoid Collosus play for example.)
If I was interested in being as efficient a ladder grinder as possible, I'd practice one race and one or two build orders per match up that I would practice to perfection over and over again but then how much of the game am I really playing? I'm just basically repeating the same couple scenarios over and over again.
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Nerfing random when it has a 0% winrate at top level is just cruel.
I actually prefer getting random opponents.
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To everybody saying random is that hard, it's not true. It's super hard at maybe high masters/GM.
You can be a solid mid master random if you have good mechanics, you only need mechanics to get that far anyway.
I'm currently playing random and am at low masters, still terrible with zerg but it's going good. It's all about mechanics as I said, all that nonsense about BO's and strategy is not needed up till high masters -_-
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On August 19 2012 23:58 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:53 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:52 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:49 ChitinMan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:48 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:47 multiversed wrote:On August 19 2012 23:46 Saat wrote:On August 19 2012 23:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 23:42 multiversed wrote:
pick a race if you want any sympathy or respect. you are not only wasting your own time, but that of others that care far more than you clearly do. haha. Posts like these are just evidence that you're the kind of player that would never respect an opponent online win or lose. Good mannered players don't make trash posts like this. Clearly you're the one with a sportsmanship problem. Furthermore i guess he is awful with 2 races. :D i could beat you easily with all 3 races. You are from NA, i doubt it. <3 Hey now Mr EU server Was just a troll, because the fact he wanted to show he has the biggest made me laugh. Anyway, random is harder, i guess ppl who refuses to admit it are just blind. So let random in peace, plz, they are human, they deserve respect also, when they aren't only cheeser. I random most of the time. Its harder, but a lot more fun and rewarding. See you on the ladder, brotato chip To elaborate on just how hard random is. Assuming you use 3 different build orders per match up. A player who masters one race will only have to practice 9 build orders. A player who plays Random, has to learn and practice 27 build orders. It's not even comparable. Trying to maintain a high level of play in every single match up is insanely difficult which is why there are no professional random players despite that early game random advantage. If the random advantage meant anything worthwhile at all, there would be at least a couple professional random players. The fact is, there aren't any because of how hard it is to play all 9 match ups at a high level.
I am not denying that random is harder. What I will ask you though is this: Do you know 27 build orders? Do you use 27 build orders? I'm guessing not.
Also, that is your choice to do that, you have the option of queueing as random or a specific race, so why should I care?
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The only problem I have with random when I play against them as toss is that I have to gate expand against zerg and the zerg knowing this can speedling expand and deny the expansion forever. Against PvP and PvT its not a big deal but gate expanding is just absolutely terrible vs a zerg that knows you're doing it.
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seems fine to me.
random players has to learn way more builds and different mechanics. And his opponents get a slight BO disadvantage. What I do against random is scout at 7,dosen't take that much away from my early game.
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On August 20 2012 00:12 Andr3 wrote:
To everybody saying random is that hard, it's not true. It's super hard at maybe high masters/GM.
You can be a solid mid master random if you have good mechanics, you only need mechanics to get that far anyway.
I'm currently playing random and am at low masters, still terrible with zerg but it's going good. It's all about mechanics as I said, all that nonsense about BO's and strategy is not needed up till high masters -_-
Mechanics and build orders are not completely separate concepts though.
Good mechanics make it easier to execute different build orders, and practicing different build orders improves your overall mechanics as you have to remember different timings on depots, gasses etc, consciously rather than subconsciously through repetition.
Not to mention also, there's also the fact that there's a completely different set of mechanics required for the 3 different races.
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I don't get why random players have search for matches using the random option. Just roll a dice between games and let it decide, instead of playing with an advantage that encourages coin-flip situations
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On August 20 2012 00:19 Vallros wrote:
I don't get why random players have search for matches using the random option. Just roll a dice between games and let it decide, instead of playing with an advantage that encourages coin-flip situations
And I don't understand why players like you feel like playing Random encourages more coin-flip situations. Is the first minute or two THAT important to you that you feel completely pressured into all inning or playing ultra greedy once you find out what race I am?
Just probe scout at 9, and play the game out standard from there.
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Untill Blizzard makes random's race visible at the beginning, I'll just proxyrax if they don't tell me their race at the beginning, if they lie I'll go something like 5rax and wish them death by cancer. Information advantage for other player is retarded, eventho as a terran player it wouldn't hurt me that much.
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Well guys, if u play only toss and aren't able to use over BO than Forge expand...Adelscott who is pretty terrible manages to beat great koreans zergs because he 1gate expand. That is clearly not "instant loose".
Furthermore, Tao367, ur logic is pretty unbelievable.
If i had difficulties agaisnt zerg, and that you play zerg "Also, that is your choice to do that, you have the option of queueing as zerg or an other race, so why should I care?"
Unfortunately, you have an opponant in SC2. You should play agaisnt bots, maybe.
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wow didnt know there was so much hate towards random players for such a seemingly small advantage they get.
for P, pylon scout, if by the time you place a gateway, forge or nexus you still havent found your opponent there are plenty of choices that you can make without gimping your build too much. i dont really understand why its such a big problem that people get so emotional about it.
same for the other races imo.
but then again i am only a platinum player, mostly play random because i like the variety.
never had people ask me my race, dont experience much cheese etc. most games i play just end up being 17-30 min macro games.
ive actually had more compliments then BM while playing random.. i guess i'm just lucky?
random vs random is pretty fun actually, playing vs more randoms just forced me to scout more and get used to scouting period, no matter what my race is or their race is.
i realise im just platinum and not masters where the tighter build orders matter more to some degree but im not convinced simply facing a random player and not knowing their race for the first couple minutes is severe enough to just give up the game and hope for a non-random opponent in the next game.
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i dont mind random players who just plat random as they like all races, instead of the random players that use random as a way to get an advantage.
If a random person tells me their race when we start i dont mind (i believe apollo does this every game) otherwise i just cheese as 9/10 times im massively behind.
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On August 20 2012 00:15 Abusion wrote:
The only problem I have with random when I play against them as toss is that I have to gate expand against zerg and the zerg knowing this can speedling expand and deny the expansion forever. Against PvP and PvT its not a big deal but gate expanding is just absolutely terrible vs a zerg that knows you're doing it.
When I play random as zerg against protoss, I never lose to protoss that doesn't know my race because of stuff like this. If they try a delayed FFE, a roach max is impossible to stop.
Like other people in this thread, I will say my race if I don't get flamed in the first 10s of the game. However, getting flamed for playing random is pretty common, so I usually take my advantage.
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On August 20 2012 00:21 Ogww wrote:
Untill Blizzard makes random's race visible at the beginning, I'll just proxyrax if they don't tell me their race at the beginning, if they lie I'll go something like 5rax and wish them death by cancer. Information advantage for other player is retarded, eventho as a terran player it wouldn't hurt me that much.
You're only hurting yourself by doing that, Terrans especially have nothing to complain about against randoms. You seriously do 1 rax expand variations in EVERY single match up. The only thing going against a random should change is when you take your gasses.
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I just 10 pool any randoms I meet. If they're terran I just transition to baneling bust and all-in. I don't want to play random players, because they are not very good at whatever race they roll.
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On August 20 2012 00:28 Beorning wrote:
I just 10 pool any randoms I meet. If they're terran I just transition to baneling bust and all-in. I don't want to play random players, because they are not very good at whatever race they roll.
apparantly they are good enough to be at the same level as you playing your race to be matched against you on the ladder, your statement is full of assumptions.
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On August 20 2012 00:24 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:21 Ogww wrote:
Untill Blizzard makes random's race visible at the beginning, I'll just proxyrax if they don't tell me their race at the beginning, if they lie I'll go something like 5rax and wish them death by cancer. Information advantage for other player is retarded, eventho as a terran player it wouldn't hurt me that much. You're only hurting yourself by doing that, Terrans especially have nothing to complain about against randoms. You seriously do 1 rax expand variations in EVERY single match up. The only thing going against a random should change is when you take your gasses.
nobody should complain, as people are only hating on random because they cant do the standard shit they do 99% of the time. if people actually think they lose because they go 1gate expand rather than forge fast expand vs. a random zerg then they should really reconsider their game level
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I can understand when people whine against a Race that might have an advantage. Queen range OP ! Mules Imba ! I can't micro against forcefields...
But what I do not understand is when players whine against the only "race" that has a clear disadvantage... Yes, you have to scout early in PvR. And yes you can't FFE. So what ? Just learn to 1gate FE against Zerg.... At your level (I assume not progamer) this is not a sub optimal build.
You have to learn 4 matchups. A random player has to learn 12.
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On August 20 2012 00:28 Beorning wrote:
I just 10 pool any randoms I meet. If they're terran I just transition to baneling bust and all-in. I don't want to play random players, because they are not very good at whatever race they roll.
If you firmly believe that why bother going for an easily holdable all in?
You're just hurting your own win loss ratio that way. If you're truly the better player it's in your own best interest to drag it out into the later game. 10 pool baneling bust is stupidly all in, if the player is truly worse than you, you're basically handing him a free win if he knows how to hold it.
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On August 20 2012 00:23 Artimo wrote:
ive actually had more compliments then BM while playing random.. i guess i'm just lucky?
I'm not sure. The vast majority of my opponents when I play random just scout a little earlier and then play standard. I think there's just a vocal minority who are upset that they have to do that.
Certainly when I play single-race and meet random I'm happy to either use a safer build or adjust one as I go. If the worst comes to the worst and they use their info advantage to cheese me (because the advantage only lasts for the early game), big deal -12 ladder points.
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Personally i hate randoms, since as a protoss it can potentially change my build (lately i go inbase gateway expands anyway so less of a problem). But i still find it annoying, thats why i'm always beeing a nice guy stating my race when i play random :>
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I agree with the OP im sorry to all randoms who feel like they get alot of hate I play random from time to time as well, the thing is i dont play it to get one up on my opponent i play it because I am very indesicive about what race i want to play, I don't see why there are randoms who have an issue with the OP unless they actually do want an advantage. The fact is like the OP said when you dont know what race your opponent is it is very annoying especially in PvX, now i realize that random players are giving up dedicated practice time but as the OP said that is their decision. Now that being said I am sure blizzard thought about this when they designed the game and apparently enough people want to retain that slight advantage tht is isnt goin to change so I dont really worry about it.
TLDR in a perfect world randoms would have their race shown at the load screen but its not and c'est la vie
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On August 20 2012 00:29 Tom Cruise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:21 Ogww wrote:
Untill Blizzard makes random's race visible at the beginning, I'll just proxyrax if they don't tell me their race at the beginning, if they lie I'll go something like 5rax and wish them death by cancer. Information advantage for other player is retarded, eventho as a terran player it wouldn't hurt me that much. You're only hurting yourself by doing that, Terrans especially have nothing to complain about against randoms. You seriously do 1 rax expand variations in EVERY single match up. The only thing going against a random should change is when you take your gasses. nobody should complain, as people are only hating on random because they cant do the standard shit they do 99% of the time. if people actually think they lose because they go 1gate expand rather than forge fast expand vs. a random zerg then they should really reconsider their game level
That's what's funny though.
Random v T literally changes NOTHING about what the Terran should be doing in standard play. 10 depot, 12 rax is still the standard in every match up regardless. The only thing that changes depending on what your opponents race is, is when you take your gas and when you drop your CC or if you need to add the second depot.
Protoss are usually the one that gripe about randoms because too many of them use the FFE as a crutch in PvZ and feel helpless without it. Terran has nothing to complain about.
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You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience.
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On August 20 2012 00:28 Beorning wrote:
I just 10 pool any randoms I meet. If they're terran I just transition to baneling bust and all-in. I don't want to play random players, because they are not very good at whatever race they roll.
They are the same MMR as you so they are (on average) just as good as you are.
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On August 20 2012 00:24 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:21 Ogww wrote:
Untill Blizzard makes random's race visible at the beginning, I'll just proxyrax if they don't tell me their race at the beginning, if they lie I'll go something like 5rax and wish them death by cancer. Information advantage for other player is retarded, eventho as a terran player it wouldn't hurt me that much. You're only hurting yourself by doing that, Terrans especially have nothing to complain about against randoms. You seriously do 1 rax expand variations in EVERY single match up. The only thing going against a random should change is when you take your gasses.
I'm "skipping" the 10%(sth like that) games which aren't real matchup to have more time to practice real ones so can't see how I'm hurting myself. Also I like to do agressive builds and expanding behind as 1rax expanding is boring IMO.
But after all, it's not about the disadvantage I'm in, it's the retarded design by blizzard I'm against.
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On August 20 2012 00:30 VyingsP wrote:
I can understand when people whine against a Race that might have an advantage. Queen range OP ! Mules Imba ! I can't micro against forcefields...
But what I do not understand is when players whine against the only "race" that has a clear disadvantage... Yes, you have to scout early in PvR. And yes you can't FFE. So what ? Just learn to 1gate FE against Zerg.... At your level (I assume not progamer) this is not a sub optimal build.
You have to learn 4 matchups. A random player has to learn 12.
Actually, at my level - diamond, it is sub optimal as a 12 minute roach max absolutely destroys gateway expands, which is already vulnerable to early speedling. I can't prepare for the speedlings as I don't know they're zerg. That's the issue here.
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On August 20 2012 00:21 Ogww wrote:
Untill Blizzard makes random's race visible at the beginning, I'll just proxyrax if they don't tell me their race at the beginning, if they lie I'll go something like 5rax and wish them death by cancer. Information advantage for other player is retarded, eventho as a terran player it wouldn't hurt me that much. Haha i do The same
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On August 20 2012 00:33 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:29 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:21 Ogww wrote:
Untill Blizzard makes random's race visible at the beginning, I'll just proxyrax if they don't tell me their race at the beginning, if they lie I'll go something like 5rax and wish them death by cancer. Information advantage for other player is retarded, eventho as a terran player it wouldn't hurt me that much. You're only hurting yourself by doing that, Terrans especially have nothing to complain about against randoms. You seriously do 1 rax expand variations in EVERY single match up. The only thing going against a random should change is when you take your gasses. nobody should complain, as people are only hating on random because they cant do the standard shit they do 99% of the time. if people actually think they lose because they go 1gate expand rather than forge fast expand vs. a random zerg then they should really reconsider their game level That's what's funny though. Random v T literally changes NOTHING about what the Terran should be doing in standard play. 10 depot, 12 rax is still the standard in every match up regardless. The only thing that changes depending on what your opponents race is, is when you take your gas and when you drop your CC or if you need to add the second depot. Protoss are usually the one that gripe about randoms because too many of them use the FFE as a crutch in PvZ and feel helpless without it. Terran has nothing to complain about.
have to remember, though, that 80% aren't diamond or above, now i dont mean to be a dick but that's basically 80% bad players and bad players tend to not know wtf they're talking about. so naturally they'd think that forge fast expand is the only way to beat zerg because everyone does it. that's bullshit and an example of a bad player.
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This thread reeks of loser mentality. "Rather than take 5 minutes to think and adjust my play, I will just cheese every game. Because random is cheap".
What a self destructive mindset to have.
There is no situation in 1v1 SC2 that doesnt have a solution. Its ok if you cant find it, but dont be so lazy as to not even try.
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On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience.
And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that.
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On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that.
then DONT go nexus first, wtf.
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On August 20 2012 00:34 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:30 VyingsP wrote:
I can understand when people whine against a Race that might have an advantage. Queen range OP ! Mules Imba ! I can't micro against forcefields...
But what I do not understand is when players whine against the only "race" that has a clear disadvantage... Yes, you have to scout early in PvR. And yes you can't FFE. So what ? Just learn to 1gate FE against Zerg.... At your level (I assume not progamer) this is not a sub optimal build.
You have to learn 4 matchups. A random player has to learn 12. Actually, at my level - diamond, it is sub optimal as a 12 minute roach max absolutely destroys gateway expands, which is already vulnerable to early speedling. I can't prepare for the speedlings as I don't know they're zerg. That's the issue here.
Watch Adelscott play. He gateway expands every single game in PvZ and pushes at the 8min mark. If he can beat Moon with this build, you can beat a random random diamond.
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On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf.
He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss.
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I don't understand why people whine about random players, considering the various disadvantages they go through to play this as random. Going through a safer opening / being paranoid for cheese is a little tradeoff compared the mechanical difficulties of playing random.
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There's the entertainment value. Imagine how exciting it would be if a random wins a big tournament.
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On August 20 2012 00:44 Garnet wrote:
There's the entertainment value. Imagine how exciting it would be if a random wins a big tournament.
No random has probably even mmade it to a round of 64, so I doubt that will ever happen.
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On August 20 2012 00:45 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:44 Garnet wrote:
There's the entertainment value. Imagine how exciting it would be if a random wins a big tournament. No random has probably even mmade it to a round of 64, so I doubt that will ever happen.
Wasn't TLO kinda good when he played Random? And how about that one GSL guy who qualified once or twice as Random, did he ever make it past the Ro64?
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I love playing random if for no other reason then I don't have to waste so much time an the forums arguing balance.
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On August 20 2012 00:46 ChitinMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:45 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:44 Garnet wrote:
There's the entertainment value. Imagine how exciting it would be if a random wins a big tournament. No random has probably even mmade it to a round of 64, so I doubt that will ever happen. Wasn't TLO kinda good when he played Random? And how about that one GSL guy who qualified once or twice as Random, did he ever make it past the Ro64?
I dunno. It might well have happened, but I;ve never heard of an occurence of that happening so I assumed it hasn't happened. Only 2 or 3 random players enter every MLG.
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On August 20 2012 00:46 ChitinMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:45 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:44 Garnet wrote:
There's the entertainment value. Imagine how exciting it would be if a random wins a big tournament. No random has probably even mmade it to a round of 64, so I doubt that will ever happen. Wasn't TLO kinda good when he played Random? And how about that one GSL guy who qualified once or twice as Random, did he ever make it past the Ro64?
If you mean Gumiho, he qualified for Open Season 3 but lost in the Ro64. That was his only GSL result before he switched to Terran.
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On August 20 2012 00:46 ChitinMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:45 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:44 Garnet wrote:
There's the entertainment value. Imagine how exciting it would be if a random wins a big tournament. No random has probably even mmade it to a round of 64, so I doubt that will ever happen. Wasn't TLO kinda good when he played Random? And how about that one GSL guy who qualified once or twice as Random, did he ever make it past the Ro64?
Gumiho was random during GSL3, however a lost in the Ro64
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On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss.
You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first.
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Before I stopped playing SC2 due to school and work, I played random only in Masters, and whenever my opponent asked me what race I was, I would tell them. Although this can go either way, I didn't find the need to conceal my race, but at the same time if I beat them in a straight up match with them knowing what I was before the 9 supply mark, it would just embarrassed them more. It also turns out that when I do tell them that they never BM me after I beat them regardless of what happened.
Also you should learn a single safe build that allows you to stand against all match ups, and vs random you should scouting earlier is also needed. It will throw off your game not having the same early game timings as other match ups but you still have to do it. As a protoss, if you FE you can't straight up do 14 nexus, you need to do a force first and maybe get a cannon or 2 before you build your nexus vs any match up, as all match ups can cheese early on.
Just think of the match up in the early game as learning against a 4th race.
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When i face random i go for 1 opening that i use in every mu which for me I play terran so I go 1 rax fe into either pure bio or mech depending on their race and just let the game flow
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On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first.
It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units.
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On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first.
then scout at 9 and go 1gate expand/3gate
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On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units.
...people still 4gate in PvP?
Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway.
To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster.
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On August 20 2012 01:04 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units. ...people still 4gate in PvP? Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway. To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster.
4gate is still very strong in platinum/diamond. Maybe not as such in masters, but it's still a very large threat in the higher mid leagues.
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On August 20 2012 01:05 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:04 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units. ...people still 4gate in PvP? Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway. To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster. 4gate is still very strong in platinum/diamond. Maybe not as such in masters, but it's still a very large threat in the higher mid leagues.
Huh. I haven't encountered a 4gate in about 50 PvPs.
What kind of 4gate is it? The standard 1gas, or the Korean 10 gate no gas?
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On August 19 2012 21:50 justinpal wrote:If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean.
How do we know that you aren't lying? We can't just ask most randoms, and even if they tell us, we still can't trust them. This is ladder, after all. People love free points.
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I don't really think random is that big of a deal, I just go and open as safe as I can, and sometimes i scout eariler. like I scout after depot, instead of rax.
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On August 20 2012 01:07 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:05 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:04 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units. ...people still 4gate in PvP? Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway. To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster. 4gate is still very strong in platinum/diamond. Maybe not as such in masters, but it's still a very large threat in the higher mid leagues. Huh. I haven't encountered a 4gate in about 50 PvPs. What kind of 4gate is it? The standard 1gas, or the Korean 10 gate no gas?
The standard 1 gas 4gate, a lot of diamond pvp is 4gate vs 4gate, so it's difficult to execute properly without the heavy micro required in pvp.
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Some random facts about me (pun intended):
1) I play Random.
2) I almost never cheese.
3) I always tell my opponent my race.
4) I really like the OPs suggestion.
5) I am on EU mid diamond - the so called casual competitive gamer.
When I used to play Protoss I found it hard to play something middle-of-the-road-ish in the early game against random. (Actually what I did was FFE and hoping he's not P). When I play Random I think its sad if someone plays something he normally would not do. As a Random player, you almost never see hatch before pool in ZvRP, for example.
I like to play the real match ups. I just like to play them all so I play Random. I don't want to play some weird stuff like FFE in PvP. Thats why I always tell my race and thats why I like the OPs suggestion.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
All races are screwed by randoms and what openings to go for, but I'll say the least screwed race is Terran, as they can do 1rax expand (as they all do in all MUs) once they are safe from proxy gateways and other cheesy shenanigans. Zergs have it hard (especially ZvZ as randoms tend to 1base allin if they get ZvZ), Protoss do as well (especially PvZ).
Even worse than Random race is 4-player map versus a Random race, now that's a bitch there.
I do agree that the race the player is spawning with should be given to the opposing player, and the people that say that other players have to learn more, they are VOLUNTARILY choosing Random, maybe for the sake of fun, but it is not fun for others. While there are some well-mannered Random players who go "gl, hf, I'm X race", I actually applaud and thank them for that.
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I play random, top diamond (trying to break into masters), and I always tell people my race. I cheese occasionally cheese, maybe once every 15 or 20 games (my ladder sessions are usually no longer than 10 games), which imo from my perspective really isn't a problem at all, but for that one person I cheese it helps increase the stigma that randoms always cheese. Also important to note, even if I do cheese, I still tell the people my race.
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On August 20 2012 01:09 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:07 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:05 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:04 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:33 Larkin wrote:
You don't have to FFE, you can Nexus first and gateway/forge wall-in if you find out that it's Zerg. Scout on 9. You make up for lost mining with a faster Nexus.
Also, ZvR(Z) is a huuuuuuuge issue as well, from my experience. And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units. ...people still 4gate in PvP? Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway. To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster. 4gate is still very strong in platinum/diamond. Maybe not as such in masters, but it's still a very large threat in the higher mid leagues. Huh. I haven't encountered a 4gate in about 50 PvPs. What kind of 4gate is it? The standard 1gas, or the Korean 10 gate no gas? The standard 1 gas 4gate, a lot of diamond pvp is 4gate vs 4gate, so it's difficult to execute properly without the heavy micro required in pvp.
Oh wait, are you NA?
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On August 20 2012 01:09 AKnopf wrote:Some random facts about me (pun intended): 1) I play Random. 2) I almost never cheese. 3) I always tell my opponent my race. 4) I really like the OPs suggestion. 5) I am on EU mid diamond - the so called casual competitive gamer. When I used to play Protoss I found it hard to play something middle-of-the-road-ish in the early game against random. (Actually what I did was FFE and hoping he's not P). When I play Random I think its sad if someone plays something he normally would not do. As a Random player, you almost never see hatch before pool in ZvRP, for example. I like to play the real match ups. I just like to play them all so I play Random. I don't want to play some weird stuff like FFE in PvP. Thats why I always tell my race and thats why I like the OPs suggestion.
Sorry, I never suggested anything in this thread. Other people have suggested ideas, but I haven't. I'd just like to clear that up.
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On August 20 2012 01:07 HeeroFX wrote:
I don't really think random is that big of a deal, I just go and open as safe as I can, and sometimes i scout eariler. like I scout after depot, instead of rax.
As a protoss, pretty much every time you face a random you get behind in one way or another. I have to sit a probe at my natural ramp in case of 6 pool so I can throw down a pylon, scout on 9 supply, and make damn sure I don't expand until I know what race he is.
This throws me a good bit behind and off, delaying timings by a fairly significant margin in PvP, having an improper build for PvZ and having important buildings in the front in PvT.
Randoms can beat me with shit that should not work because they are random. That is just wrong. If you enjoy playing all the races, that's fine and well, but it's unfair to have the advantage of being that unpredictable against the least flexible race.
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On August 20 2012 01:13 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:09 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:07 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:05 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:04 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units. ...people still 4gate in PvP? Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway. To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster. 4gate is still very strong in platinum/diamond. Maybe not as such in masters, but it's still a very large threat in the higher mid leagues. Huh. I haven't encountered a 4gate in about 50 PvPs. What kind of 4gate is it? The standard 1gas, or the Korean 10 gate no gas? The standard 1 gas 4gate, a lot of diamond pvp is 4gate vs 4gate, so it's difficult to execute properly without the heavy micro required in pvp. Oh wait, are you NA?
edit: nvm, thought it was at me, lol.
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On August 20 2012 01:13 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:09 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:07 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:05 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:04 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:On August 20 2012 00:35 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
And what if it's protoss? Going nexus first and having no gateway/core is dead. No way to come back from that. then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units. ...people still 4gate in PvP? Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway. To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster. 4gate is still very strong in platinum/diamond. Maybe not as such in masters, but it's still a very large threat in the higher mid leagues. Huh. I haven't encountered a 4gate in about 50 PvPs. What kind of 4gate is it? The standard 1gas, or the Korean 10 gate no gas? The standard 1 gas 4gate, a lot of diamond pvp is 4gate vs 4gate, so it's difficult to execute properly without the heavy micro required in pvp. Oh wait, are you NA?
Nah EU.
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On August 20 2012 01:16 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:13 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:09 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:07 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:05 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 01:04 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 01:00 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:59 Larkin wrote:On August 20 2012 00:37 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 00:36 Tom Cruise wrote:
[quote]
then DONT go nexus first, wtf. He was saying, go nexus first as that's still considered relatively safe vs zerg and terran, then if you find out it's zerg go forge. But we can't do that, because the random player may be protoss. You misunderstand. I said scout on 9 and probe up for nexus first rather than getting a forge on 13. If you see it's Zerg, get your Nexus. If you see it's Protoss your gate will be like 2 food later which doesn't have the biggest effect in the world. And if it's Terran you can still Nexus first. It has a huge affect in pvp. Especially if the opponent 4gates. Later gateway = later cyber core = later warp gate = later units. ...people still 4gate in PvP? Again, not really. You can hold 3gate aggression with 2 gates. All that changes is that you have more probes, as you've spent money on probes while he's spent it on a gateway. To counter the core effect, you can not chrono probes more than once until you've scouted, and save more chrono for warp gate to get it faster. 4gate is still very strong in platinum/diamond. Maybe not as such in masters, but it's still a very large threat in the higher mid leagues. Huh. I haven't encountered a 4gate in about 50 PvPs. What kind of 4gate is it? The standard 1gas, or the Korean 10 gate no gas? The standard 1 gas 4gate, a lot of diamond pvp is 4gate vs 4gate, so it's difficult to execute properly without the heavy micro required in pvp. Oh wait, are you NA? Nah EU.
Strange. I almost never play 4gates on EU.
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I always ask them wether they want to tell me their race. And if not I just go for a 9 Drone scout although this puts be a little bit behind. But it doesn't really bother me as it's such a slight disadvantage that it shouldn't effect the game after all when I play good. (I'm low Masters) At a level where such a disadvantage matters I think the player playing random deserves this little bit of an advantage as it is hard enough to play Random at GM level. (btw. even there a Dronescout @9 or so shouldn't matter that much imho)
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Random players have it harder than players who play 1 or 2 races, and have to play with 3 times the knowledge of timings and build orders. A reason you would want to play random is for the advantage that your opponent doesn't know what race you play. The disadvantage to randoms is the amount of time invested into learning all 3 races. Why would you play random on even ground and invest 2-3 times more time into learning?
In your case of PvR turning into PvZ, even if you open gate first, you can always throw down a forge then nexus after. Sure you are behind, but then you must secure small advantages which then over time accumulate into a big advantage making it even or swinging the game in your favor. Then again, why play into the meta game when you can just 4 gate if zerg double expands?
Remember that most of the time when you are playing a random (diamond and below), chances are that a Random probably doesn't have better mechanics than a player who only plays that race.
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On August 20 2012 01:19 ProxyKite wrote:
Random players have it harder than players who play 1 or 2 races, and have to play with 3 times the knowledge of timings and build orders. A reason you would want to play random is for the advantage that your opponent doesn't know what race you play. The disadvantage to randoms is the amount of time invested into learning all 3 races. Why would you play random on even ground and invest 2-3 times more time into learning?
In your case of PvR turning into PvZ, even if you open gate first, you can always throw down a forge then nexus after. Sure you are behind, but then you must secure small advantages which then over time accumulate into a big advantage making it even or swinging the game in your favor. Then again, why play into the meta game when you can just 4 gate if zerg double expands?
Remember that most of the time when you are playing a random (diamond and below), chances are that a Random probably doesn't have better mechanics than a player who only plays that race.
The point is, a lot (about 75% of all random opponents I face) don't play standard and cheese. Often their cheese hits before you can scout them sometimes on 4 player maps.
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the main issue is that unlike terran or zerg where they open the same thing constantly against all races, i.e. 1 rax CC, 14/15, the protoss usually needs to vary between 2 builds 9 pylon 12 gate and 12/14 or 15 forge 17nex/15nex. Thats the main issue, so I like many protosses just cheese the living shit out of randomers. Also I get race picking, but if you want to be random you should literally just toss a dice with 6 sides and 2 opposite sides are the same race, that would be the same thing you have 33.3% chance of each race, and it would allow for a fair game.
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Treat random as a fourth race and have a good solid opener that works reliably vs all 3 races until you scout the random's race. (Either by us scouting, or you scouting us) It's that simple. Also, this thread has many misconceptions and misguided stereotypes about random players...
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Come on, random players account for what? 5 - 10% of the ladder? The amount of random matches that occur are so small that it really doesn't matter.
Just play the game and if you lose who cares. One win/loss isn't going to make or break you.
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As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to play with the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because "that's what the pros do". [People actually have said this to me when I beat them with stupid 1 base pushes]
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random (assuming they are of the same skill level) in each race if it becomes a late game macro war.
Oh and I have to add I love playing R v R. The ultimate game of unknowns mmmmm  ]]]]]
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I don't dislike random matchups.
I play Z as my main and I always go 11 over pool against a random opponent.
It can be a bit more aggressive than my other usual openings like hatch first and so in that sense, it lets me experience a different game style.
besides, I find it quite interesting to guess his main race and then check if I am right after the game is over.
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On August 20 2012 01:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:
As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to go on the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because that's what the pros do.
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random in each race if it becomes a late game macro war.
I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
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On August 20 2012 01:24 Hummingb1rd wrote:
Treat random as a fourth race and have a good solid opener that works reliably vs all 3 races until you scout the random's race. (Either by us scouting, or you scouting us) It's that simple. Also, this thread has many misconceptions and misguided stereotypes about random players...
This is, without a doubt, the best advice so far in this thread.
Play a standard, safe opening, yes, a zerg might be able to expand, while you don't FFE. It's one game, and it's vs. a random opponent. And the solution of, "have the loading screen display their race" removes the single advantage that playing random has.
People tend to play at a weaker level as one of the races, and a random player is taking that chance. As compensation, the game forces you to temporarily play blindly against them. It's a trade off that makes sense.
Edit: On August 20 2012 01:31 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:
As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to go on the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because that's what the pros do.
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random in each race if it becomes a late game macro war. I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
It says random on the screen because, while a lot of people have said they'll tell you their race, they're by no means *required* to do so. If i get pocket aces in hold em, i definitely COULD tell you, but there's no obligation for me to do so.
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What's wrong with scouting incredibly earlier than usual? You lose mining time, but regardless, that small amount of mining time doesn't play that huge of a role given how imperfect your play is.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On August 20 2012 01:19 ProxyKite wrote:
Random players have it harder than players who play 1 or 2 races, and have to play with 3 times the knowledge of timings and build orders. A reason you would want to play random is for the advantage that your opponent doesn't know what race you play. The disadvantage to randoms is the amount of time invested into learning all 3 races. Why would you play random on even ground and invest 2-3 times more time into learning?
In your case of PvR turning into PvZ, even if you open gate first, you can always throw down a forge then nexus after. Sure you are behind, but then you must secure small advantages which then over time accumulate into a big advantage making it even or swinging the game in your favor. Then again, why play into the meta game when you can just 4 gate if zerg double expands?
Remember that most of the time when you are playing a random (diamond and below), chances are that a Random probably doesn't have better mechanics than a player who only plays that race.
Wrong.
If you are playing ANY race, you MUST know all timings the other race can throw at you (there aren't so many different timings in whatever MU), so, sorry, but you are not a huge book of wisdom.
Most of the pro players play other races as well and they are quite good with them, some pro players even played random. Just to throw this out there:
Terran will not find Zerg easy, simply because of how their macro works.
Zerg will not find Terran easy, simply because of how their macro and micro required works.
Protoss is the in-between as they have "instant" and "normal build" units but will have problems with Zerg with the APM and attention required just for pure macro mechanics (most medium-range Protoss players do not really spend as much APM on macro as Zerg does, it is a fact).
Yes, the transition between races is what you are facing and how the each race is played, that's your biggest challenge to master and to feel comfortable from going crazy creep spread/inject mode to passive Protoss mode. Learning the "timings" and "MUs" is just a ridiculous argument. I am a Zerg player myself and I know most of the timings from all races, because I avidly watch pro games, even those without "my" race in them.
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On August 19 2012 21:46 Tao367 wrote:Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum. Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players. So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE). I personally feel that the race chosen should be displayed on the loading screen, without any indication that it is actually random. I understand many players will not agree with this, but why? My personal opinion is this: A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience. Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why. To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself. Edit: A replay why PvR(z) is broken. I know my play is shit, but even with better play than my opponent in this situation would be bad. http://drop.sc/240528
Can be sort of annoying for zerg vsing randoms as well. If they get protoss and I 14 hatch I get cannoned.
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On August 19 2012 23:38 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 23:36 Ludwigvan wrote:On August 19 2012 23:21 BeeNu wrote:On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to. I've never understood this, if you actually want a real ladder experience then why don't you just roll dice or something to pick your race every match. A dice has 6 sides, not 3. It's impossible to make a 3-side-dice. XD 1-2 = T 3-4 = P 5-6 = Z Just a thought. /shrug.
One could also:
1=T
2=Z
3=P
4-6 Roll again!
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The race your opponent has picked affects the way you play the game; in that sense, random is no different than any of the others. Empirically, the profile of the professional scene shows that choosing random is a pretty serious disadvantage and if the race was revealed as you suggest, it would be a much bigger disadvantage.
The bottom line is the actions others take and the choices they make do affect you, and there's nothing wrong with that... that's why it's a multi-player game.
The difference with random is it adds more uncertainty to the start of the game. So yes, a random player can get away with things that normally you cannot (hatch first vs p, for example) and you have to respect that in any game a 6 pool could be coming. But that's just how the game goes against the random race. Overall, random players are disadvantaged and these things certainly don't make them win more than comparably skilled players--if they did, most pros would be random.
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I like to consider random as a separate race with its own advantages and disadvatages. The advantages being of course that th opponent is unaware of the race at the start of the game. The disadvantage is that it's harder to practice for the larger number of matchups.
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On August 20 2012 00:35 Equity213 wrote:
This thread reeks of loser mentality. "Rather than take 5 minutes to think and adjust my play, I will just cheese every game. Because random is cheap".
What a self destructive mindset to have.
There is no situation in 1v1 SC2 that doesnt have a solution. Its ok if you cant find it, but dont be so lazy as to not even try.
So many people can't consider that they may be what is at fault when they fail at something. I do like how not one of the subsequent random haters in the thread has responded to this post, instead just reading the op and posting, or pretending that your post was never made.
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On August 20 2012 01:31 Tao367 wrote:
I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
Because "A large number of the posters here" means nothing. That's just what people who are interested in this thread and wanted to respond thought. That's not even the entire TL community, let alone the entire SC2 community.
The fact is this: if you want to play random and tell people your race, you have that option. If you want to effectively play random by rolling a die before each match, you have that option.
But if you want to play random and not have your opponent know what your race is, your idea would have this choice taken away from them.
Consider this: pretty much every tournament in existence allows random as a race choice. And yet virtually no pro players pick it. If it were such an advantage to play random, surely more pros would be random players, yes? So if you don't see people taking this powerful advantage... maybe it's because the advantage doesn't really exist.
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On August 20 2012 01:31 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 01:27 Amber[LighT] wrote:
As a person who plays random, if someone asks me my race I will give it to them. I'm not really playing to be imba, I'm just enjoying every race in the game. I'm not exactly going to be sent to Korea in my lifetime so I may as well have fun with the game I'm playing and learn each race. I will say a lot of people who I play seem to go on the mindset that I'm just going to let them fe all of the time. It's not easy to play 3 races, and I can't macro well. I'm never going to allow someone to take freebies because that's what the pros do.
I realize this play must frustrate people because they seem to think that they are entitled to do what the pros do. You don't have the knowledge to take a FE if I'm random and you don't ask me my race. I feel like that's really basic, but you can't just do what you want because that's what you are used to. Be flexible with your strategy. Make a gateway first, or don't hatch first, or make hellions to harass instead of just going for a cc. It's all about knowing what your opponent is up to and if you're going to just play around it and pretend it's not a problem you're going to lose to a random. In the end a person who mains 1 race is probably going to beat the random in each race if it becomes a late game macro war. I completely agree with you. People like playing all three races, and I have absolutely no problem with that. A large number of the posters here say they will give their race, so why does it say random on the loading screen? That's the only thing here being discussed, not the balance of matchups.
The thing is , the majority of the people in this thread who want random removed (or the uncertainty of random removed) want it because "its not fair that random gets a BO advantage". The perceived imbalance of random is what fuels most of the dislike of it.
(On a personal note, I think it isn't really imbalanced, its just different, and others have posted my reasons for thinking this).
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On August 19 2012 23:01 Dfgj wrote:
Master league random here.
I'd rather have my race displayed or something so I can play a straight-up game rather than deal with people who just cheese/play suboptimally because they have to.
This post his hilarious. You want people to play 'optimally' against you, but you're forcing them all to scout a lot earlier than they normally would, and you're making it so that Protoss basically can't Forge expand against your Zerg -- now that is sub-optimal.
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I just 2 gate proxy vs random. I refuse to play normal vs someone who has an unfair advantage at the start of the game and who will most likely be trying to cheese me anyway
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As zerg im just always going for 15hatch 16pool vs random, as at top masters I really can't be arsed to play in any game where just because i dont know opponent's race I am playing from behind, I rather lose early and don't waste time on playing this or play on fair rules.
People who say that they tell the opponent their race don't get the point of this thread. Yes, you tell it, but most of the people don't, and even if they do, you can't really trust it...
Having random on ladder ruins the reliability of ladder (luckily in small degree).
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I think the presumed advantage and disadvantage of playing against random players are not as big as you think. Terran can 1 rax FE in all matchups, Protoss can 1 gate FE, and Zerg can 14 pool 16 hatch in all matchups. So there is a safe 'macro' build that you can play. If your complaint is that you don't get good practice against random players then that is BS because it means you are relying on a build order for your advantage then solid mechanics and decision making.
In starcraft your mindset has a huge impact on how well you play and when a player goes into a game thinking they are at a disadvantage then you will be affected. So get rid of the 'oh I'm at such a disadvantage mindset' scout and play a good solid game.
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I say if you've taken the time to learn 9 matchups as opposed to mastering 3, then you've earned the right to have an advantage to play against me
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My favorite part of this debate is the "I know Random players just cheese so I just 4Gate/6Pool/ProxyRax to show them!" Playing Random - I got cheesed far more often than I ever cheesed myself.
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On August 20 2012 02:21 Arghmyliver wrote:
My favorite part of this debate is the "I know Random players just cheese so I just 4Gate/6Pool/ProxyRax to show them!" Playing Random - I got cheesed far more often than I ever cheesed myself.
In addition to that, I see no problem with random. Have you ever failed a cheese? Your opponent then whispers you with righteous indignation, "gg nice cheese bro" as though right as triumphed over wrong.
Take away the perceived disadvantage and where will they put their soap box?
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On August 20 2012 02:20 ChiknAdobo wrote:
I think the presumed advantage and disadvantage of playing against random players are not as big as you think. Terran can 1 rax FE in all matchups, Protoss can 1 gate FE, and Zerg can 14 pool 16 hatch in all matchups. So there is a safe 'macro' build that you can play. If your complaint is that you don't get good practice against random players then that is BS because it means you are relying on a build order for your advantage then solid mechanics and decision making.
In starcraft your mindset has a huge impact on how well you play and when a player goes into a game thinking they are at a disadvantage then you will be affected. So get rid of the 'oh I'm at such a disadvantage mindset' scout and play a good solid game.
The issue in P v random(zerg) is that the zerg knows that his opponent will go gateway first into either an allin or expansion. He doesn't have to worry about cannon rushes and knows that warpgate will be out quickly. Its not about how 1gate expanding is inferior to ffe, but about how the zerg can already predict your opener.
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On August 20 2012 02:30 soccerdude wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:20 ChiknAdobo wrote:
I think the presumed advantage and disadvantage of playing against random players are not as big as you think. Terran can 1 rax FE in all matchups, Protoss can 1 gate FE, and Zerg can 14 pool 16 hatch in all matchups. So there is a safe 'macro' build that you can play. If your complaint is that you don't get good practice against random players then that is BS because it means you are relying on a build order for your advantage then solid mechanics and decision making.
In starcraft your mindset has a huge impact on how well you play and when a player goes into a game thinking they are at a disadvantage then you will be affected. So get rid of the 'oh I'm at such a disadvantage mindset' scout and play a good solid game. The issue in P v random(zerg) is that the zerg knows that his opponent will go gateway first into either an allin or expansion. He doesn't have to worry about cannon rushes and knows that warpgate will be out quickly. Its not about how 1gate expanding is inferior to ffe, but about how the zerg can already predict your opener.
I can definitely see how P v Random(zerg) would cause the most problems but at the end of the day unless you are in GM or tip top Masters then the player with the better mechanics should win. And zerg doesn't absolutely know what protoss is doing they still have to scout for an all in or the expansion. It is also still possible for a protoss to scout a hatch first and still cannon rush after going gateway first. Maybe not on condemned ridge if they are scouted last but most maps it is still viable.
I still want to emphasize that the advantages/disadvantages are negligible especially from bronze to mid masters.
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I feel robbed of a game when I get a random player matched against me.
Most of them have no idea what they're doing, and it's hard to practice strict builds when the opponent can't play well.
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My only problem is that they TEND to be a lot more cheesy than your average player, but not all of them are. I actually have a lot of respect for random players just because I am so bad at offracing, and learning 9 different matchups must be really challenging
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On August 19 2012 21:56 Antares_ wrote:I don't care, I just go 1 rax FE and depo scout. When I play random on my smurf acc I reveal my race if opponent asks nicely
¨This is the way to do it as terran
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Playing against randoms, especially as the league goes down, is a free win.
Randoms either don't know the match up. And the chances that they actually get their best match up is pretty low.
Or what I see more often, is the all-in type play. Which if held, they might as well just leave the game.
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random isn't worth shit. i just all in depending on the map that can work on all races (masters). its worthless for practice that i have to be subjected to some bullshit RNG just because it doesn't show me what race they are.
if they can't decide what race they are gonna play, thats fine, but at least let it show up on the loading screen. it's not worth my time to get proxy raxed, cannon rushed, or 7 pooled blindly, or have to be forced to at least 1gate robo before expo.
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I like how many people in this thread don't understand the concept of a trade-off. They only whine about what they loose and don't have a thought about what they gain.
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The advantage stated in the OP is that a random zerg vs him as toss means he cannot safely forge expand.
I'm afraid that the disadvantage of learning 9 matchups instead of 3 HUGELY outweighs this, and if you really think random is easy/an advantage then why aren't you random??? And in PvZ v random, then send 2 scouts out to 2 bases, sure you'll lose income, but unless you're top masters, you're probably not going to notice the lack
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You're not really behind if you open 1 base vs a zerg, just use Naniwa's build as a followup once you scout that your opponent is Z.
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On August 19 2012 21:46 Tao367 wrote:
So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE).
...so, instead of even mentioning your opponent...just learn to play from behind. That is most definitely an alternate solution over which you have control...
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I sometimes play random on ladder to chill and it amazes how many people get angry. 60% of the games I just get cheesed or allined.
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One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that Random players at Masters and higher level have the best grasp of game balance. Most of the QQ about imbalance comes from people who play only one race, but when you play all the races you understand the strengths and weaknesses of the races and are more objective in determining which races are op.
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On August 20 2012 02:20 Capulet wrote:I say if you've taken the time to learn 9 matchups as opposed to mastering 3, then you've earned the right to have an advantage to play against me
What are the chances you play a random that have learnt 9 matchups? Most of them can play like 2-3 matchups "normally" for the level of play you are at and then they just suck ass in the rest. And most randoms doesn't even play random to learn 9 matchups and have fun, they do it because they can abuse their advantage and cheese/allin/economy advantage. That is why playing against random on ladder is such a waste if you use the ladder as a source of practice. Luckily you can "meta" pretty hard with Terran vs Random. I feel for Protoss the most.
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When I play against random I just all-in. Usually just a 4gate to get it over with fast. Tends to bag me a fast win, especially versus the ones that random in as Zerg, if I scout a Protoss I might switch it up, but I just don't like even tryin' versus random. Doesn't help me at all prepare for someone who plays one race strictly.
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If ladder actually meant something, it would have been a farce that the loading screen doesnt tell what race your opponent randommed.
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On August 20 2012 02:21 Arghmyliver wrote:
My favorite part of this debate is the "I know Random players just cheese so I just 4Gate/6Pool/ProxyRax to show them!" Playing Random - I got cheesed far more often than I ever cheesed myself.
And because of this random player has to scout or prepare for proxies and other cheeses/all-ins every match if he wants to be safe. It is not too uncommon to face _blind_ aggressive cheeses or extra greedy openings from opponents who think that random players get too big advantage due that their race is not revealed in the beginning. Thankfully lots of these people who are more likely to do blind cheeses reveal themselves by starting to complain about random or demanding you to tell your race in the beginning of the match.
And if they someday decide to reveal random player's race during the loading screen, I truly hope they do not also reveal that he is a random player. Some of these same 'random haters' would then deduct that their opponent may be lower level in that match-up and then proceed to cheese or do some all-in.
(By the way as trivia: Currently the random player gets to know his race only when the match starts and then has to choose his strategy on fly. His race is not revealed to him during the loading screen.)
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On August 20 2012 01:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
What's wrong with scouting incredibly earlier than usual? You lose mining time, but regardless, that small amount of mining time doesn't play that huge of a role given how imperfect your play is.
The argument that "Oh, your play is not perfect so is doesn't matter" is flawed.
An advantage is an advantage no matter what skill level it is presented to. changes in builds and scout patterns might actually hurt lower level players more, considering they have to do something they are unacustomed to.
The facts are, a random player has a real advantage over the other player because one players race is declared and the others is not. This akin to one player having the map explored with only FoW, and the other player not knowing what formations are on the map until he explores it (for those who played some of the older RTS games.)
basically my point is this. Random is getting an advantage THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR PLAY before the game even starts. The only thing that midigates this is the meta-game, which changes all the time.
Random should be and option for bored people, or people that like all the races, but what race they are going to spawn as sould be displayed on the loading screen.
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Random should reveal the race they are playing in my opinion. I don't like having that last scout on a 4 player map and not knowing what is coming. Especially as Protoss. But they do have less skill in each race. But I think their race should be revealed because I don't like the coin flip aspect of it.
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At least in Broodwar people had the dignity to tell you the race the got. I didn't get tricked or anything once when someone played Random against me. But maybe I was just lucky?
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Random was put in the game to have that advantage if you can play all the matchups well. Why shouldn't it affect you? People dont play random soley for the reason of variety when they play. They also do it to gain the advantage they have in the early game. To say it shouldnt affect you is a little absurd.
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On August 20 2012 02:12 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I just 2 gate proxy vs random. I refuse to play normal vs someone who has an unfair advantage at the start of the game and who will most likely be trying to cheese me anyway
I had to start with this but now to the serious stuff :
Most people i am sure have a standard opening for example and since the most hate protoss vs random(zerg) i am gonna point out these the most. Versus zerg as protoss usually you go nexus first or forge nexus into voidrays, imortal sentry,7 gate, blink stalkers etc. Most of you use that build almost always so you have the best win rate. So you have 3 standard openers versus the 3 races , what random does it forces you ( sadly it forces protoss more then others it seems to adapt ) , you have to LEARN another opener to adapt to the "4'th race". So all i can say is ... try and look up some strategy that might work versus random zerg.
I am masters as random (used to be master with terran )and the false impresion that random players cheese comes from the fact that they get cheesed so much it's incredible especially by protoss ( they seem to have the hardest versus random) so i just adapt going into a very "cheesey get a lot of units early/sacrifice a little tech and economy - defend - win mode" .
My advice would be , don't fear random , if you are afraid of cheese just scout a little better and you will be ok.
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its called the 4th race for a reason. Learn to play against random.
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For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics.
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Random have to learn 9 matchups, however it is imbalanced against Protoss, especially on big maps, because of bad game design. Blizzard has created a game with ONE viable build in a match-up and that is retarded.
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The fact that it is called random shows it should have no place in a strategy game.
you can choose random but the race it determines should be displayed otherwise it isn't a strategy game but one of chance.
Also "throwing off the game compensates because they lack the refined play of a single race" how is this good for a game of skill and strategy
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I think random should reveal what race they spawn as on the loading screen. Absurd how they haven't done that yet.
To the people saying that random is supposed to have a small advantage over you, it's the player who picks random who CHOOSES to gimp himself by needing to learn three races. It's HIS fault that he wants to play random. I should not be affected in any shape, way or form by HIS choice. If someone chooses to play on a laptop with the touchpad, it's HIS fault that he is gimping his performance and I should not be forced to use a touchpad instead of a mouse because of this.
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I can't believe this is a topic spanning 12 pages about being able to random race on sc2 ladder. I mean, come on.
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On August 20 2012 03:17 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:
If ladder actually meant something, it would have been a farce that the loading screen doesnt tell what race your opponent randommed.
You realize that in tournament the loading screen won't show the race either, don't you ?
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On August 20 2012 03:37 Savant.GL wrote:
The fact that it is called random shows it should have no place in a strategy game.
you can choose random but the race it determines should be displayed otherwise it isn't a strategy game but one of chance.
Also "throwing off the game compensates because they lack the refined play of a single race" how is this good for a game of skill and strategy
You're attaching more significance to it than is deserved.
At the end of the day you're still playing against a Zerg a Terran or a Protoss. The only thing that changes is that you have to slightly adjust your starting build if you don't scout your opponent right away.
That's all that changes. Randoms aren't making this game require any less strategy, they're just requiring YOU to scout more and not rely on a gimmick opening.
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It shouldn't matter that someone is playing random. A random player will win about 50% of the time just like everyone else.
There is also a reason there is no successful random pro. Apparently the advantage given doesn't outweigh the disadvantage.
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On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics.
Totally agree with this 100%.
Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first.
Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it.
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On August 20 2012 03:36 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Random have to learn 9 matchups, however it is imbalanced against Protoss, especially on big maps, because of bad game design. Blizzard has created a game with ONE viable build in a match-up and that is retarded.
Except there's more than 1 viable opening for any Protoss match up. You just have stop relying on the crutch that is the Forge Fast Expand to figure that out.
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On August 20 2012 03:27 ODKStevez wrote:
Random should reveal the race they are playing in my opinion. I don't like having that last scout on a 4 player map and not knowing what is coming. Especially as Protoss. But they do have less skill in each race. But I think their race should be revealed because I don't like the coin flip aspect of it.
So we should ban all ins and cheese strategies too right because no one likes them and they're coin flippy right?
Randoms are as much a part of the game as anything else. You don't have to like them to accept that they belong right where they are.
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On August 20 2012 02:20 ChiknAdobo wrote:
I think the presumed advantage and disadvantage of playing against random players are not as big as you think. Terran can 1 rax FE in all matchups, Protoss can 1 gate FE, and Zerg can 14 pool 16 hatch in all matchups. So there is a safe 'macro' build that you can play. If your complaint is that you don't get good practice against random players then that is BS because it means you are relying on a build order for your advantage then solid mechanics and decision making.
In starcraft your mindset has a huge impact on how well you play and when a player goes into a game thinking they are at a disadvantage then you will be affected. So get rid of the 'oh I'm at such a disadvantage mindset' scout and play a good solid game.
You can't 1gate fe vs protoss. There is no protoss build that is "safe" vs everything.
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T v R--
TvP 1 rax expo TvZ 1 rax expo TvT 1 rax expo
P v R--
PvT Set up for a 1 gate expo and react to your probes scout into 3 gate expo (PvZ) or tech/4 gate (PvP) depending
Z v R--
ZvP Set up for a 14 hatch and pool if you see the probe ZvZ 14 Hatch 14 pool ZvT 14 hatch 14 pool
There that wasnt so hard
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I play random and am at 1100 point masters right now. I play random because I believe in playing on my toes and forcing other players to play like this as well. It makes them uncomfortable and they play badly when they are out of their routine. I feel like if someone truly understands the game then they should have no problem against Random.
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1gate nexus pvz is good opening done by many pro players. There is no problem with random at all. (unless ur autopilot player unable to react to what he sees)
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On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it.
I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game.
Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
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On August 20 2012 03:38 Daimai wrote:
I think random should reveal what race they spawn as on the loading screen. Absurd how they haven't done that yet.
To the people saying that random is supposed to have a small advantage over you, it's the player who picks random who CHOOSES to gimp himself by needing to learn three races. It's HIS fault that he wants to play random. I should not be affected in any shape, way or form by HIS choice. If someone chooses to play on a laptop with the touchpad, it's HIS fault that he is gimping his performance and I should not be forced to use a touchpad instead of a mouse because of this.
Shouldn't you be punished for choosing to learn how to play only 1/3 of the game?
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The only problem I can perhaps see is if a random inconsistently reveals the race. A random who gets higher in the ladder without revealing the race and then starts revealing will lose more at the onset of revealing. A random who climbs the ladder with revealing the race and then stops revealing the race will win more at the stopping of revealing. It shouldn't matter as long as people are consistent with their revealing or not revealing.
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So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random?
Man, suck it up. Grow some balls, and learn to respect a guy who can play every race as well as you play your one race. This isn't worth a thread.
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I'm a random player myself. I go for random in all of my games and in 1v1s I tell my race at the start of the beginning. I fully support the idea of showing the race beforehand though as some matchups create retarded games. Especially PvR and RvR. My experience from RvR is that nearly every random doesn't tell you his race or straight up lies to get an advantage. I remember two RvRs where I tell my race (zerg) he responds with terran and then hardcore cannon rushes my hatch first.......
The argument of having to learn more matchups is cheap and stupid. It's not like I am forced to play random and need some counterweight advantage. I play random for the sole purpose of variety and the problems is that many of the matchups arent actually TvZ, Tvp, PvP they are RvT, RvP, RvZ which sucks and as random is basically not present at pro level some "equalizing advantage" is useless.
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On August 19 2012 22:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games. The Ladder isn't the pro-scene. Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game? See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong. The ladder is not the pro scene, you are correct, but Blizzard have made the statement many many times that they like the idea of ladder being really competetive and tournament like.
And you have random players in tournaments just like ladder unless we are talking GSL or high end tournaments where the pros are playing.
People need to get over the fact that they are not going pro and should be playing Sc2 to enjoy the game and not waste their time complaining about every little thing.
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I like random players, but I think that if you are going professional playing random does not cut it. You need to practice one race and be godlike with it. But I don't dislike random players, besides if you scout early it should not be a problem unless it's a big map and they decide to 6pool or proxy you for some strange reason.
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On August 20 2012 03:50 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:20 ChiknAdobo wrote:
I think the presumed advantage and disadvantage of playing against random players are not as big as you think. Terran can 1 rax FE in all matchups, Protoss can 1 gate FE, and Zerg can 14 pool 16 hatch in all matchups. So there is a safe 'macro' build that you can play. If your complaint is that you don't get good practice against random players then that is BS because it means you are relying on a build order for your advantage then solid mechanics and decision making.
In starcraft your mindset has a huge impact on how well you play and when a player goes into a game thinking they are at a disadvantage then you will be affected. So get rid of the 'oh I'm at such a disadvantage mindset' scout and play a good solid game. You can't 1gate fe vs protoss. There is no protoss build that is "safe" vs everything.
So react to the fact that you scouted protoss and swap the nexus for something else.
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8748 Posts
You should practice gateway openings in PvZ to fix this problem.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
if random players had such a "huge advantage" then you would see professional players play random. although it provides a superficial advantage that you have pointed out, that advantage is meaningless when you play against a competent player. you are losing all of these PvR because you arent addressing them correctly and instead are trying to do cookie cutter builds that you apparently already know are ineffective. try doing a new strategy and see how it works out for you instead of complaining about the "imbalance" of something nobody who is good would ever complain about.
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I have always the problem (I'm random) that protoss players just go blind forge and cannon rush me in the case I'm not zerg.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
PvR when they're Zerg is the hardest because you're not able to FFE, that I agree with. However, not being able to FFE will not cost you the game. 1 gate expand is still a viable choice vs Zerg, just not as strong as FFE.
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I think the random players race should be displayed somewhere for the same reason that everybody is basically saying, its an unfair advantage, they chose to pick random they should be able to accept not being able to do bullshit plays just because they picked random....hide my race too, then see how the game plays out.
In the end a person that wants to truly learn all 3 races will benefit from their race showing because they get to practice vs real strategies, not some stitched together crap after the guy finds out what you are.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
You are losing PvR(Z) because you don't know any other viable PvZ openers, and because you spend too much time on this forum complaining when Blizzard clearly won't be making a change due to this thread (instead of practicing a 1gate expand, for example).
If it bothers you that much just leave the game.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
You realize that there's a lot more openings than ffe in PvZ?
And you realize that ZvP is the hardest matchup for random players, because it's impossible to practice it?
MMR statistics don't lie, Random is by far the weakest race on the ladder. I'm always happy when I play against random, because it means an easier win for me. That stuff about cheesing makes no sense as well. Regardless of the matchup being PvR, PvZ, PvT or PvP, either I scout the cheese and can prepare for it or I don't scout it and am most likely screwed. Since I scout earlier vs Random as well, it's way more easy for me to hold a random cheese than a protoss cheese, which is somewhat impossible, since I scout very late if I know my opponent is toss.
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I ask for the race at the beginning, if they wont tell me or tell me the wrong race, i just leave...
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On August 20 2012 04:17 Vinc wrote:
I ask for the race at the beginning, if they wont tell me or tell me the wrong race, i just leave...
Same. No point of being forced to choose a sub-optimal build against a player who's rating is inflated because he chooses random. I ladder to improve my mechanics, not to flip coins aka good luck vs random as protoss on tal darim.
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On August 20 2012 04:10 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random. You realize that there's a lot more openings than ffe in PvZ? And you realize that ZvP is the hardest matchup for random players, because it's impossible to practice it? MMR statistics don't lie, Random is by far the weakest race on the ladder. I'm always happy when I play against random, because it means an easier win for me. That stuff about cheesing makes no sense as well. Regardless of the matchup being PvR, PvZ, PvT or PvP, either I scout the cheese and can prepare for it or I don't scout it and am most likely screwed. Since I scout earlier vs Random as well, it's way more easy for me to hold a random cheese than a protoss cheese, which is somewhat impossible, since I scout very late if I know my opponent is toss.
I switched through races and one thing I noticed was no matter what race I played there were opponents telling me in the first minute of the game how cheesy my race would be.
So I now avoid to think of other races as cheesy, but the players I'm facing.
And to OP, one Protoss I know of to 1Gate expand ist axslav, and I like his builds.
Playing vs Protoss is just another challenge, and thats what sc2 is about.
I can take a risk and play Nexus first vs Zerg and complain about scouting his 8pool too late or play gate expand and maybe have a slight disadvantage.
I think there are many more skills involved during a match of sc2 that determine who wins, so try to play to your strengths.
If you lose, gg and try to improve.
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learn to scout and stop whining, you can 9 pylon scout and still FFE or nexus 1st...... there is nothing wrong with random on the ladder, if anything its good, forces new/less experienced players to actually scout....
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On August 20 2012 04:27 Th30nE wrote:
learn to scout and stop whining, you can 9 pylon scout and still FFE or nexus 1st...... there is nothing wrong with random on the ladder, if anything its good, forces new/less experienced players to actually scout....
lol, yes sure we will nexus first, autoloss vs P, we can FFE too autoloss if vs P, or we can open with gate, good vs P/T but almost autoloss vs Z, all people scout in 9-15 even in bronze random doesn't make you learn nothing new
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On August 20 2012 04:27 Th30nE wrote:
learn to scout and stop whining, you can 9 pylon scout and still FFE or nexus 1st...... there is nothing wrong with random on the ladder, if anything its good, forces new/less experienced players to actually scout....
um... no.
I cc first vs zerg, gas first vs terran, and 1 rax fe vs protoss. So I should be forced to pull a scout insanely early, making my build worse, and have a chance of not seeing anything in time on a 4 player map? Na, would rather just leave. Plus I've played enough randoms to, personally, see justification in the stereotype that they favor gimmicky play and are unpredictable due to their lack of understanding of each race.
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Berceno,
in Bronze you don't know you have an opponent to learn.
Assuming Nony knows his stuff, gateway openings are far from being bad.
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Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed.
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I play random because i like all races equally. If an opponent is nice I'll tell him my race, even if he's not even asking for that information.
Be nice to random players on ladder and they might do likewise.
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every random player I've encountered so far has told me their race when I asked them, so it isn't much of an issue
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if you think FFE is the ONLY viable opener against a zerg, you should be blaming blizzard and not random players.
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Yeah I hate playing random players. But then 9 times out of 10 they are really bad and it's a free win anyway.
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On August 20 2012 04:24 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:17 Vinc wrote:
I ask for the race at the beginning, if they wont tell me or tell me the wrong race, i just leave... Same. No point of being forced to choose a sub-optimal build against a player who's rating is inflated because he chooses random. I ladder to improve my mechanics, not to flip coins aka good luck vs random as protoss on tal darim.
More likely the random player's MMR is not inflated, but much lower than it would be if he used his 'best' race. When you have to manage 9 different match-ups you always have your good and bad mu:s and get much less practice time for each. And the level difference between the best and worst mu may be big. The MMR of the random player is still an average of how he handles all his 9 mu:s. This leads to situations, where the random player may have very high winratios in some mu:s, but very low in some others. So when facing a random opponent at ladder, it is a good chance that he actually is higher level player in that mu than the race picker (or the other way around).
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whiners... try playing random urself and see how u manage. Playing random means that u need 2 know nine diffrent matchups and also random vs random.
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LOL at people thinking that there is an advantage to playing random.
There is a reason why no pro player picks random.
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At my level of play random players will usually tell you the race if you ask them, 4 out of 5 that is. They understand that they gain an unfair advantage over you, this only increases their skill artificially and if they care about getting better more than winning this means it actually does them more harm than good.
It is stupid that you have to rely on your opponent's discretion though. I think all players should have equal chances when the game starts.
I understand that random players have to learn more matchups than others thus I think they should have the dice symbol plus the specific race they rolled shown at the loading screen to give them credit for playing random.
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I am a random player who switched from purely Terran to purely Zerg to Random and I have to say that 1) I get cheesed a hell of a lot 2) it's much more difficult trying to work on three races' mechanics, timings, and unit control than focusing on one and 3) I get insulted, called cheesy, etc when I go for macro games for each and every race.
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To be honest, random shouldn't be secret. Just random. So when you get into the loading screen, you actually see the race. Dunno, maybe it's me, if people play random for the secret, it's because most people want to cheese/get their opponents offguard. If you honestly want to improve with other races, you wouldn't care if your opponent knows your race.
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Is there some reason why this "[D]" has to be had every couple of months? Seriously no one has anything new to say about this. The op lost a pvz. Does that really warrant yet an another thread like this?
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It's a 4th race and should be treated as such.
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This is like complaining about 6 pool. Get better and you won't have to worry about it.
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People seem to underestimate the economy differences of an early scout combined with enemy's no scout. If anything, this will actually affect the lower skill levels more, considering less effort is needed to refine a cheesy or timing-oriented builds. Of course this applies more to those random players who play to win instead of improving.
Maps also have a large part to play. Blind cheeses are less likely to work on 4 player map.
As zerg, i have to take risks in some way or another if i am behind right from the start. It's easier to play a tech/upgrade-centric style though, since playing the drone game is pretty much walking on razor's edge especially when you are behind.
If you want proper practice on ladder, just go blind greed to counter their greed. If you happen to face early cheeses, just quit and get done over with. Playing when behind is also good practice though.
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Random is obviously really underpowered in the pro scene as almost no one plays R and absolutely no one does any good with them.
From personal experience I was stuck in silver league as R for ages and about equally good at each race. But when I chose to play as Zerg I almost instantly jumped straight up to platinum just from being able to focus on mechanics and timings. I haven't played in ages but I'm about to start again and play as random. I will be playing at least a league lower than I would if I chose one of the other races, but I will be having more fun.
So empirically random is heavily disadvantaged for GM+ and from my own experience random is heavily disadvantaged for bronze-platinum. It's possible that there could be a sweet spot in diamond and masters where being random actually helps but I see very little reason to think that would be so and it definitely would not fit the pattern.
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On August 20 2012 04:49 uberism wrote:
LOL at people thinking that there is an advantage to playing random.
There is a reason why no pro player picks random.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho
This guy qualified for one of the GSL open seasons as random.
Just saying.
People need to step their game up, though, instead of complaining and rallying for changes to the game when they are having a problem. I honestly don't even feel like the 'balance changes' that have been made throughout WoL have really been anything much more than the design team saying "Hey, guys, use these units more, like this." If queen range went back to being whatever it used to be, I'm still pretty sure we'd see these heavy queen openers in ZvT. People need to play with mindset that the problem lies with their gameplay, and not with the game itself, because 99.999999% of the time, it does. Oye.
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It's not that big of a deal to gateway expand vs Zerg, a few pro-players have experimented with this (Nony, Naniwa (?)), so if it works on their level, it shuold definitly work at bronze to masters level...
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This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand
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You should be able to do a 1gate expo PvZ no problem. There was a time when no one FFE'd, and even after it became standard it was a really long time before it became so exclusive... gate expands are still quite viable. You really shouldn't have such a tough time playing against random.
I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races
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Not sure how anyone can have fun playing random, it's just going to be non-standard practice since a lot of players tend to freak out when against a random, either doing something weird/chessy aka what you won't see much of in a real game.
And I don't really get the "focused practice" argument, I'm mid master and often run into players with 600+ games this season alone, while I barely play enough to empty my bonus pool. Should I get a couple more scvs at the start of a game because they've had more "focused practice" than me?
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From my limmited experience of sc2 ladder random was manageable but okay, since you can use the same opening (1 raxx FE) in all matchups and then adapt when you scout.
I'd hate playing vs random as toss, cus if they hit zerg you dont know if you can forge FE
In BW I hate random players with a passion, but that is because I am a racepicker, so people who random piss me off as I dont play zvz (add to the fact that the vast majority will throw some stupid cheese but predictable cheese at you just adds oil on the fire).
I suppose I could just quit racepickin but playing PvZ is so much more fun than ZvZ :p
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On August 20 2012 04:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
You should practice gateway openings in PvZ to fix this problem.
Fucking Liquid Nony up in this bitch. I agree with this sentiment.
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I recently started playing again, after 1-2 months pause. I was Zerg back then, now I switched to random. I always tell my race at the beginning of the game (whether the opponent believes it is another problem). Now here is how it went:
1. Lose a shit ton of games.
2. Play poorly, recognize how terrible you are.
3. People talking shit before the game even begins: "Oh fuck not a cheesy random again." Or after I tell my race: "Yeah, as if I would believe that."
4. Start to get better but still getting flamed eventhough I am playing a macro game every time.
I'm pretty frustrated at the moment but I know that the bad reputation is well earned by random players who just want to trick their opponent, rather than playing straight up. But here is some advice for all the non-random players. Just play safe against random. If they still win, it is only your own fault, because you should be way better than them at that matchup.
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i think the funny thing is the randomer's bad reputation is caused by bad whiners, which makes the reputation moot.
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On August 20 2012 05:23 Penecks wrote:
Not sure how anyone can have fun playing random, it's just going to be non-standard practice since a lot of players tend to freak out when against a random, either doing something weird/chessy aka what you won't see much of in a real game.
And I don't really get the "focused practice" argument, I'm mid master and often run into players with 600+ games this season alone, while I barely play enough to empty my bonus pool. Should I get a couple more scvs at the start of a game because they've had more "focused practice" than me?
some people play the game just for fun, not to "practice" or "get better." i dont understand how people can stand playing so seriously all the time. why turn a hobby into a job?
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On August 20 2012 05:08 JJoNeEightY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:49 uberism wrote:
LOL at people thinking that there is an advantage to playing random.
There is a reason why no pro player picks random. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMihoThis guy qualified for one of the GSL open seasons as random. Just saying. People need to step their game up, though, instead of complaining and rallying for changes to the game when they are having a problem. I honestly don't even feel like the 'balance changes' that have been made throughout WoL have really been anything much more than the design team saying "Hey, guys, use these units more, like this." If queen range went back to being whatever it used to be, I'm still pretty sure we'd see these heavy queen openers in ZvT. People need to play with mindset that the problem lies with their gameplay, and not with the game itself, because 99.999999% of the time, it does. Oye.
What's the point of bringing up Gumiho? He's the one and only random player to ever get through the GSL qualifiers (in 2010), only to drop out in the RO64. He switched to Terran the following season. If anything it exemplifies why no "pro" player would ever pick random.
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On August 20 2012 05:23 Penecks wrote:
Not sure how anyone can have fun playing random, it's just going to be non-standard practice since a lot of players tend to freak out when against a random, either doing something weird/chessy aka what you won't see much of in a real game.
Is it really bad if games play out non-standard? For me it's way more exciting. I get bored just playing one race really quickly and yet many people in this thread whine because they can't play their one standard build they play every fucking game. Now playing one build over and over THAT would bore me to death. Well people are different I guess.
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On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races
You sure that's because of your race choice?
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On August 20 2012 05:39 Rah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races You sure that's because of your race choice?
You can make unrelated jokes and poke fun all you want, but when I play random I play on a different account under a different name, so what you're implying is not the case.
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On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:You should be able to do a 1gate expo PvZ no problem. There was a time when no one FFE'd, and even after it became standard it was a really long time before it became so exclusive... gate expands are still quite viable. You really shouldn't have such a tough time playing against random. I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races
Why not just flip a coin before race select to determine what race you'll be. Why must you start the game with an unfair advantage. You obviously aren't playing random solely because you like every race-- part of it is the advantage.
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On August 19 2012 22:07 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to). I disagree. Its absolutely not hard to have a safe opening that "branches" out into race-specific strats after you scout. The whole "random players get a secret build-order" thing only applies if you get unlucky on a 4-player map. The exceptions to this are PvZ (but GW expands aren't that bad, see Adelscott) and ZvR where you gamble slightly on pool- or hatch-first. Terrans in particular have it easy vs random, I 1-rax FE and very rarely have to do anything different to the normal matchups.
Online or irl it fucking baffles me sometimes how people say things and then don't realize the contradictions they're making.
You say random is fine as is, then later say that there are situations where 4 player maps occur and you get, "Unlucky."
........
Random needs to display the race before the match starts, it makes no sense in a competitive game for some gimmicky wins to be allowed based on a computer generated number.
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On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:You should be able to do a 1gate expo PvZ no problem. There was a time when no one FFE'd, and even after it became standard it was a really long time before it became so exclusive... gate expands are still quite viable. You really shouldn't have such a tough time playing against random. I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races
You're getting trashtalked because you start the game with hidden information whereas the opponent does not. There's simply no reason for random to not show what race it selects for you on the loading screen. It limits one players' early game options whereas the other can act with full knowledge of the matchup he is playing.
You can't 6 pool, proxy gate or cannon rush when you don't know what race your opponent is spawning and you have to scout earlier to account for all the variables that the unknown race brings, yet the random player can do whatever he pleases because he has been randomly assigned a significant information advantage.
The notion that random players deserve an edge because they have to learn more MU's than other players is ridiculous. If you choose to play 3 races instead of one you're accepting the burden of having to learn 3 times more. You can't willingly choose to play with such a handicap and then pretend you're entitled to some arbitrary equaliser.
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I played zerg during release. After months of inactivity I played random to get a better feel for each race it filled that desire for variety.
I understand arguments from bothsides and honestly you shouldn't try and enforce limitations of play. Openings shouldn't have to be this or that. Part of what's great about the game is the variety. Not all randoms are cheesers and even if they were, it's really their call to make. One race players can also be cheesy or standard. Even learning to survive cheese from a random can help you become a better player. Suck it up
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On August 20 2012 04:31 Berceno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:27 Th30nE wrote:
learn to scout and stop whining, you can 9 pylon scout and still FFE or nexus 1st...... there is nothing wrong with random on the ladder, if anything its good, forces new/less experienced players to actually scout.... lol, yes sure we will nexus first, autoloss vs P, we can FFE too autoloss if vs P, or we can open with gate, good vs P/T but almost autoloss vs Z, all people scout in 9-15 even in bronze random doesn't make you learn nothing new
if you actualy READ what i said instead of blasting off irrelevant whining, i said 9 PYLON SCOUT!, then you can make your decision based on what you scout, which is what you should do regardless, if you build blind you deserv an autoloss
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On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed.
Well put.
This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start.
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On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand
Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg.
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Random players almost never cheese, 'cos you're just scouted every single time. I used to play random (about 400 games), and in almost everygame I got super early scout. How do you want to cheese that?
And every race has some good opening vs random. Terran can go 1 rax expand, zerg 14 pool or 15 hatch, protos should scout after first pylon is up (it's good vs zerg, you can block hatches, and goof vs terran 'cos there is no wall yet) and decide after that.
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout.
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I agree, as a protoss player, playing vs R is dumb.
I understand you want to play random. If your goal is to learn all the MU's, then you wouldn't oppose the 'loading screen showing your race. Your still random, but the game should show which race after the countdown before the game begins.
People are saying 1 gate expand/etc, learn a safe build for only random. This doesn't matter. Random shouldn't give any advantage at all to the person choosing it, and people who say it should give an advantage are not the people who are playing to learn the game, they are the people who want an unfair advantage early game so they can cheese.
Not a single post ive seen can argue against the 'loading map' part of the screen displaying the race. Your still random even if it does that.
edit: I know no pro's use Random effectively. But there is an argument for it imo, Random would still give an advantage in a series because the opponent wouldn' t know your race untill the map starts to load, so for every map in the series, theyd have to prepare 3x as much as vs a non random player, fair enough imo
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On August 20 2012 05:47 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:14 -orb- wrote:You should be able to do a 1gate expo PvZ no problem. There was a time when no one FFE'd, and even after it became standard it was a really long time before it became so exclusive... gate expands are still quite viable. You really shouldn't have such a tough time playing against random. I feel biased in completely the opposite way, because I get trash talked on a daily basis just for being random. Many games start with my opponent (whom I have never played or talked to before) calling me a fucking asshole etc and just continue with relentless trash talk just because I like playing all 3 races Why not just flip a coin before race select to determine what race you'll be. Why must you start the game with an unfair advantage. You obviously aren't playing random solely because you like every race-- part of it is the advantage.
some of us just dont give a shit and play the game. blizzard put this nice function in there allowing us to play random, and we do it.
can any of you even provide a replay where you lost because of the "random factor" rather than you not playing well?
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GM protoss here, 13 scout against randoms because I know how to play against all 3 races with identical gateway openings if I so choose. Random is perfectly fine on ladder, you just don't know how to play it. Don't call it broken. How on earth can you play a strategy game and then give up without doing ANY creative thinking when a difficult scenario arises?
Anyway, with that said, I think banning the 4th race from tournaments is very justified.
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i can provide many, all of them cheeses and direct build order losses
can you provide a reason why the race shouldn't show up on the loading screen?
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its always toss players complaining about this. look, the random players have a disadvantage because they have to play as all the races. you do not. If u play against a random u should gateway expand. I guarantee u ur pvz is probably better then theirs because they have so many other MU to play
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There are ways to recover as toss against a random zerg. Mostly it involves a 1 gate FE into 3 gate sentry play.
A lot of the newer (just turned 1 in sc2) don't know what that is. It doesnt actually give zerg an advantage, and can hold a 6 pool quite easily.
There are some nice pylon gate wall offs that arent too bad PvZ and PvP, and you normally scout them by the time you want to place your gate. 9 scout ftw.
It bothers me that ye, I like to FFE, but generally, a gate in base holds their 6 pool better anyways.
Also, TLO played competitive random in the GSL, as did a few of the other players (I think Gumiho was random at one stage, and GuineaPig was definitely random. Made for some fun GSTL games)
Tbh, if they want to play it in a tourney, and they can get there. Good on them
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On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg.
u can 2 gate fe and pressure....
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On August 20 2012 05:57 ohampatu wrote:
I agree, as a protoss player, playing vs R is dumb.
I understand you want to play random. If your goal is to learn all the MU's, then you wouldn't oppose the 'loading screen showing your race. Your still random, but the game should show which race after the countdown before the game begins.
People are saying 1 gate expand/etc, learn a safe build for only random. This doesn't matter. Random shouldn't give any advantage at all to the person choosing it, and people who say it should give an advantage are not the people who are playing to learn the game, they are the people who want an unfair advantage early game so they can cheese.
Not a single post ive seen can argue against the 'loading map' part of the screen displaying the race. Your still random even if it does that.
I would like to see more randoms in tournaments, but no one is using it so it's not that OP as you say it is.
About protos you can just scout at 9 pylon or open 13 gate or something. Almost every protos uses FFE now, so they don't even know that they are good gateways openers too.
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On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start.
Random is banned from tournaments? Excatly which tournaments are you talking about?
I get that you need to convince yourself that every random player you lose to just won because he has an "unfair" (lol) advantage over you and that he can't possibly be better than you.
Let's put it this way: There is no notable pro player that play random and no random isn't banned from most tournaments. What conclusion can we draw from this fact? Right, a player concentrating on one race only will always be better than a random player if they are both equally talented and invest the same amount of time. You might even say the non random player has an unfair advantage! :p
So next time you lose to a random player, just remember that he would very likely stomp you even more if he would concentrate on one race only.
(I know I'm exaggerating but some of the arguments in this thread are really funny...)
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On August 20 2012 05:50 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:07 Kasu wrote:On August 19 2012 21:53 Maluk wrote:
Random is a race on its own to me. Random players who think they are more objective because they get to play all the matchups don't get that Terran vs Random is a whole other matchup than Terran vs Terran/Protoss/Zerg, for example. If you don't know the race of your opponent, any specific opener you have is screwed. So basically every random player starts with a slight build order advantage.
I don't think this kind of advantage is game breaking, though ; it seems to compensate nicely for the fact that the random player will often be slightly worse with the race he'll end up having during the game than your average opponent who race picks.
To me, random is fine as it is, and displayed as "random", because it's a way to have fun (I go random myself when I want to go for funny build based on the fact my opponent has no clue about what I could be up to). I disagree. Its absolutely not hard to have a safe opening that "branches" out into race-specific strats after you scout. The whole "random players get a secret build-order" thing only applies if you get unlucky on a 4-player map. The exceptions to this are PvZ (but GW expands aren't that bad, see Adelscott) and ZvR where you gamble slightly on pool- or hatch-first. Terrans in particular have it easy vs random, I 1-rax FE and very rarely have to do anything different to the normal matchups. Online or irl it fucking baffles me sometimes how people say things and then don't realize the contradictions they're making. You say random is fine as is, then later say that there are situations where 4 player maps occur and you get, "Unlucky." ........ Random needs to display the race before the match starts, it makes no sense in a competitive game for some gimmicky wins to be allowed based on a computer generated number.
You can always get unlucky on 4 player maps. PvZ, you scout Zerg last and he early pools -> auto loss, PvP you scout Toss last and he cannon rushes or 2gate proxies -> auto loss.
If you lose to cheese it has nothing to do with whether you know what race he is. Because you can't say "oh he's zerg, so he's gonna 6pool". You need to scout him first. Same goes for random.
Personally I always go double scout vs Z when I don't scout him first, so I just do the same thing with random.
On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg.
Gateway openings are perfectly viable on any map. At least I haven't played any map where I'd lose a lot more than on others in PvZ. Also there's ffe openings where you put your forge in your main, which you can still decide after pylon scout.
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On August 20 2012 06:00 ohampatu wrote:
i can provide many, all of them cheeses and direct build order losses
can you provide a reason why the race shouldn't show up on the loading screen?
because its unnecessary.
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On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed.
If it's an unfair advantage, why don't you play random?
It's not so easy to practice for all match ups. Not all tournaments historically have banned random and including the GSL. Where is our random champion? It's not a flawed design. It's a flawed design in the eyes of a number of people who are having issues with it. So maybe you should look in your own play rather than restructuring the design for all random players.
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On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start.
And are monumentally disadvantaged if you don't roll the one in three chance you get your main race. I'd love to know which (relevant) tournament a random player has won. Or the winrates of random since release. This is such a dumb argument.
On August 20 2012 06:00 ohampatu wrote:
i can provide many, all of them cheeses and direct build order losses
can you provide a reason why the race shouldn't show up on the loading screen?
Because random is hugely disadvantaged in every other possible way at equal skill levels. Now list your build order losses.
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On August 20 2012 06:01 Wrathsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote:On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. u can 2 gate fe and pressure....
you know how awful that logic is? We are FORCED to use sub optimal builds that we don't want to just because someone picks random? Awesome. Random makes it fun for one guy while not fun for the other, while if random just randomly chose your race no one would suffer.
There is no legitimate argument for random hiding your race. None.
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It is dumb. Using the 'we have a disadvantage for choosing it so you should have a disadvantage' is a dumb argument.
build order losses: any 13 gate against a competent random who rolls zerg. they preemptively have enough information to deny you from ever expanding, and if its a 4 player map and you scout last, gg. They have enough information to do speedling build that can prevent any 1 gate to 3 gate expand, and you dont know they are even doing the build order until 2 minutes+ into the game, i haven' t played R in the last few days, ill search for replalys, maybe some of you are shitty random players?
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On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start.
Are you sure it's banned in all of them? I thought it was you were just stuck with random once you've picked it, in other words, you can't change race based on map/opponent etc.
That aside, I do see how it's an advantage at the start but I don't think it's that game breaking, maybe at lower levels of play I could see it but better players should know more than just 1 build against any race. From my experience from playing random purely as high as top 10 masters with mostly no cheese on my part, most of those players don't seem to be affected by playing against random. Also, random players also have to vs other random players so we do get a taste of it.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
What strategies are you talking about? I can only think of cc first and hatch first in ZvP, you can punish any other greed. You can't really punish a cc first anyway unless you're metagaming and according to Belial's ZvP guide a gateway expand can scout your hatch first, throw a forge and cannon rush anyway.
When you lose games because you're not able to FFE it's your problem for not being able to gateway expand, it's completely viable. (unless you're talking about Tal'darim, but what protoss doesn't veto that map?)
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On August 20 2012 06:10 kranten wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random. What strategies are you talking about? I can only think of cc first and hatch first in ZvP, you can punish any other greed. You can't really punish a cc first anyway unless you're metagaming and according to Belial's ZvP guide a gateway expand can scout your hatch first, throw a forge and cannon rush anyway. When you lose games because you're not able to FFE it's your problem for not being able to gateway expand, it's completely viable. (unless you're talking about Tal'darim, but what protoss doesn't veto that map?)
If you open 13 gate (since people seem to think thats the safest build vs R), and they roll zerg. All they have to do is a proper speedling opening to stop you from ever expanding.
totally fair
edit: 1 gate expand is viable in pvz, but its not viable in pvr when r is z, we can't perform the build order properly because we wont know to do it untill a minute or so in when we scout them
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On August 20 2012 05:51 Th30nE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:31 Berceno wrote:On August 20 2012 04:27 Th30nE wrote:
learn to scout and stop whining, you can 9 pylon scout and still FFE or nexus 1st...... there is nothing wrong with random on the ladder, if anything its good, forces new/less experienced players to actually scout.... lol, yes sure we will nexus first, autoloss vs P, we can FFE too autoloss if vs P, or we can open with gate, good vs P/T but almost autoloss vs Z, all people scout in 9-15 even in bronze random doesn't make you learn nothing new if you actualy READ what i said instead of blasting off irrelevant whining, i said 9 PYLON SCOUT!, then you can make your decision based on what you scout, which is what you should do regardless, if you build blind you deserv an autoloss
On 4 player maps, it can be the case that you don't find your opponent in time to determine if you want to gateway or nexus-first (or FFE or whatever), even if you 9-scout.
I agree with the OP in that the loading screen should already have the race that the random player has rolled. Look at League of Legends, among other games. If you choose random, it randomly picks a character for you. In the loading screen everyone sees the character rolled and not a question-mark or something that says Random.
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Gateway core openings are just as viable as FFE. On certain maps I feel like they are even stronger.
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to your poit that it bothers you to not ffe in pvz i can only say there are a few really good protosses for example react.kanadan who never.makes ffe vs zerg cus it "slows down the game so much" and also more famous players like mc play 3 gate expo on certain maps stm. like at ipl fc vs stephano.
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On August 20 2012 06:13 BearStorm wrote:
Gateway core openings are just as viable as FFE. On certain maps I feel like they are even stronger.
Then why is only 1/100 games of pvz non ffe? Literally 99% of pvz games in tournaments are ffe. If they were stronger, pros would use them more often.
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On August 20 2012 05:51 Th30nE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:31 Berceno wrote:On August 20 2012 04:27 Th30nE wrote:
learn to scout and stop whining, you can 9 pylon scout and still FFE or nexus 1st...... there is nothing wrong with random on the ladder, if anything its good, forces new/less experienced players to actually scout.... lol, yes sure we will nexus first, autoloss vs P, we can FFE too autoloss if vs P, or we can open with gate, good vs P/T but almost autoloss vs Z, all people scout in 9-15 even in bronze random doesn't make you learn nothing new if you actualy READ what i said instead of blasting off irrelevant whining, i said 9 PYLON SCOUT!, then you can make your decision based on what you scout, which is what you should do regardless, if you build blind you deserv an autoloss
I disagree with this topic with every fiber of my body, since there is a perfectly good 13 gate build that works vs all races at high master+ when you 9 pylon scout, regardless of how unlucky you are with spawns.
However, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You cant ffe vs random because the 9 pylon vs zerg has to be on the low ground, there is literally 1 solid and safe opening available and a lot of P just dont know it or have forgot how to gateway exp vs zerg and play vs early speedlings instead of 3 hatch.
Either way, the fact that this topic isn't closed is really disheartening and makes me lose quite a bit of respect for the tl admins, since its nothing more than a huge whinefest from people(mostly P) unwilling to learn followups vs zerg after opening gateway first.
Please deal with it and stop whining already, there are TONS of resources in the SC2 strategy forum here on TL to get you started, just by scimming the front page i see Naniwas gateway exp into phoenix play, go learn that, you can do it vs random that spawns as zerg on ANY map in the pool with 9 pylon scout and gate on 13.
Against T and P, well, 13 gate is standard anyway.
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On August 20 2012 06:05 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:01 Wrathsc2 wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote:On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. u can 2 gate fe and pressure.... you know how awful that logic is? We are FORCED to use sub optimal builds that we don't want to just because someone picks random? Awesome. Random makes it fun for one guy while not fun for the other, while if random just randomly chose your race no one would suffer. There is no legitimate argument for random hiding your race. None.
I'm also forced to play a style I don't want to play when Terran 111s or when Zerg goes Mutas. Should we ban that as well?
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On August 20 2012 06:15 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:13 BearStorm wrote:
Gateway core openings are just as viable as FFE. On certain maps I feel like they are even stronger. Then why is only 1/100 games of pvz non ffe? Literally 99% of pvz games in tournaments are ffe. If they were stronger, pros would use them more often.
Gate openings are actually quite strong. The difference from 2 years ago PvZ is that you do in fact make a forge because cannons are just plane necessary.
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On August 20 2012 06:17 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:05 xrapture wrote:On August 20 2012 06:01 Wrathsc2 wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote:On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. u can 2 gate fe and pressure.... you know how awful that logic is? We are FORCED to use sub optimal builds that we don't want to just because someone picks random? Awesome. Random makes it fun for one guy while not fun for the other, while if random just randomly chose your race no one would suffer. There is no legitimate argument for random hiding your race. None. I'm also forced to play a style I don't want to play when Terran 111s or when Zerg goes Mutas. Should we ban that as well?
That's completely different and you know it. This is not anywhere near comparable to random.
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Playing as random is completely ridiculous. All the times i just risked my opening fora 2/3 chance of being viable. Complete bullshit. Thankfully there's a lot of random players that reveal their race when you ask them, to those random players, i <3 you.
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On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start.
I've never heard of random being banned from tournaments. If anything people don't play random in tournaments because you're at a disadvantage for playing random and not getting to hone your skills for just one race.
Blizzard decided to make it so that random players get to show "Random" on the loading screen. Deal with it like we have to deal with learning three times the match ups and mechanics you do. "Suboptimal builds" being a problem - scout early or choose a build which diverges post-scout based on what the race is like random players do when we match against a random player.
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On August 20 2012 06:18 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:17 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 06:05 xrapture wrote:On August 20 2012 06:01 Wrathsc2 wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote:On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. u can 2 gate fe and pressure.... you know how awful that logic is? We are FORCED to use sub optimal builds that we don't want to just because someone picks random? Awesome. Random makes it fun for one guy while not fun for the other, while if random just randomly chose your race no one would suffer. There is no legitimate argument for random hiding your race. None. I'm also forced to play a style I don't want to play when Terran 111s or when Zerg goes Mutas. Should we ban that as well? That's completely different and you know it. This is not anywhere near comparable to random.
It's perfectly comparable. The only difference you have as protoss is that you don't go forge->expand or expand->forge, but gate->expand->forge or whatever else seems fit. You still have the freedom to follow it up with any style you want.
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On August 20 2012 06:21 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:18 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 06:17 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 06:05 xrapture wrote:On August 20 2012 06:01 Wrathsc2 wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote:On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote:
This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against".
Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. u can 2 gate fe and pressure.... you know how awful that logic is? We are FORCED to use sub optimal builds that we don't want to just because someone picks random? Awesome. Random makes it fun for one guy while not fun for the other, while if random just randomly chose your race no one would suffer. There is no legitimate argument for random hiding your race. None. I'm also forced to play a style I don't want to play when Terran 111s or when Zerg goes Mutas. Should we ban that as well? That's completely different and you know it. This is not anywhere near comparable to random. It's perfectly comparable. The only difference you have as protoss is that you don't go forge->expand or expand->forge, but gate->expand->forge or whatever else seems fit. You still have the freedom to follow it up with any style you want.
Point is, when you see zerg/terran on the loading screen you know full well that they're possibilities of potential strategies your opponent could use. When random, early game strategies are that much more deadly.
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The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
You are like whining about first world problems
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So i just throw a question to random players. Do you play random because you want to play the 3 races and get better at them? Then, what is the problem if the loading screen actually tells you and your opponent what race you got randomly?
There is no handicap. If you are a silver terran player, a silver protoss player, and a plat zerg player, you will be stuck at high silver till your get better at your worst races. As simple as that.
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Random players might believe they learn all matchups, but infact they almost never face a proper opening against the race they roll.
So since its not possible to play a proper early game vs random anyways I usually just fool around with some quick cheese or simply quit if my initial race guess was incorrect. I want to learn the matchups, and don't have time to try out how PvT builds work out against Zerg or the other way around, or how to play from behind from a safety build that I would not do in any matchup.
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On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
You are like whining about first world problems
Yes, pretty much. A random player will have significantly less experience in different situations than someone who focuses on one race. MMR doesn't really balance it out, from my experience random players I get matched with generally tend to seem like they play on a bit of a lower level than I do. It's not like there's many random players on the ladder anyways. Ladder isn't the biggest deal, losing a game out of 50 or 100 where you played a random as P that spawned Z and opened with a terrible build is so insignificant. Also... if you recall recent tournaments you'll remember the gateway into expand openings that Sase/Naniwa displayed that performed quite well. Learn that build if you're so concerned with facing randoms on ladder that may spawn as Z.
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On August 20 2012 06:34 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
You are like whining about first world problems Yes, pretty much. A random player will have significantly less experience in different situations than someone who focuses on one race. MMR doesn't really balance it out, from my experience random players I get matched with generally tend to seem like they play on a bit of a lower level than I do. It's not like there's many random players on the ladder anyways. Ladder isn't the biggest deal, losing a game out of 50 or 100 where you played a random as P that spawned Z and opened with a terrible build is so insignificant. Also... if you recall recent tournaments you'll remember the gateway into expand openings that Sase/Naniwa displayed that performed quite well. Learn that build if you're so concerned with facing randoms on ladder that may spawn as Z.
Actually, if they are worse players than you, why are they around your MMR ?
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I can't help but laugh at the people who say they are mad they have to prepare a 4th build order to deal with randoms. Think about your own comment for a second. Think about that from a random player's perspective.
Oh, now instead of 4 build orders, there are 12 that I need to know as a random player. ( zvz, zvp, zvt, pvz, pvp, pvt, tvz, tvp, tvz, zvR, pvR, tvR )
Cry me a river. My lack of thousands of games played as a single race will benefit you when I have to play a race I only play 33% of the time and instead of knowing 4 different build orders I need to know 12. Everyone saying that Random is unbalanced because of what it does to them as a T/P/Z player, look at it as a R player and think about that for a little while before you post. It's an extra element of the game that I love to see now as this game is 2 years old and i need something different than playing the same 3 build orders all day every day.
Thank random players for playing random and allowing you to step up your scouting skills and refine build orders.
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On August 20 2012 06:23 Tao367 wrote:Point is, when you see zerg/terran on the loading screen you know full well that they're possibilities of potential strategies your opponent could use. When random, early game strategies are that much more deadly.
No.
When you play against random they don't get any magical new openings. Terran means: 1rax gasless expand, 2rax gasless expand, mass rax allin, proxy rax, gas opening. After you scout you cross the odd ones out. Zerg means: Early pool, Gas->pool->expand, expand->pool->gas, pool->gas->expand. After you scout you cross the odd ones out. Protoss means: Cannon rush, Proxy Gates, 1gas opening (4gate basically), 2gas opening. After you scout you cross the odd ones out. Random has the exact same possible openings and not a single opening more.
Every race has so many openings that they are all deadly when unscouted, because you can't just guess what your opponent does, even if you know his race.
Or tell me, why should a proxy rax by a random player be more difficult to hold than a proxy rax by a terran player? Either you scout and have an easy time to hold or you don't scout and have a tough time to hold. Don't tell me it's more difficult to scout a random player.
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are people bashing random, really feel they lost when lose because they were playing against a random?
some people are so full of themselves.
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There are so many problems with random that make me want to leave every single time I find a random opponent...
First off the obvious:
As Protoss you need to know a build for every matchup that is absolutely identical up until you scout.
I for one am not willing to learn a build like that and 3 different transitions, it will defenitely be weaker than any of my current builds and therefore I will only use it vs random, about 5% of my games..
Also it had to be 4Gate, 6Pool, Proxy Rax, 5Rax etc etc etc proof, which is close to impossible.
The second big problem is not as easy to see but just as significant.
Say I like Terran the most but play Random.
Now I have this friend who plays Zerg and we play a lot of 1v1s for fun and because he wants to improve.
Now me TvZ is by far my best matchup.
So my opponents are screwed whenever it is TvZ.
They simply don't stand a chance, my PvP ZvP ZvZ etc etc match me way lower than my Terran skills and especially TvZ.
It is very frustrating to get roflstomped, it is way more frustrating to me when it happens vs Random.
Why not make it so that you can check a box, "I want to know my opponents race if he is random" "I don't" and then Random players get to check if they are cool with both or only one.
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On August 20 2012 06:32 perestain wrote:
Random players might believe they learn all matchups, but infact they almost never face a proper opening against the race they roll.
So since its not possible to play a proper early game vs random anyways I usually just fool around with some quick cheese or simply quit if my initial race guess was incorrect. I want to learn the matchups, and don't have time to try out how PvT builds work out against Zerg or the other way around, or how to play from behind from a safety build that I would not do in any matchup.
Not even close, PvZ is the only matchup where it's affected and even then, I've played against plenty of FFE, especially on 2 player maps. I actually have probably played against less cheese than most players just due to the fact that they don't know which cheese to pick.
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Random is and has always been a legitimate choice. There have also been some Random pros for a time (even though they didn't go super far AFAIK). You just have to deal with it and develop tactics against the fourth race.
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On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
Complete Bullshit, if I would start playing random on a new account, for the next MONTH I would win 100% of my games as Protoss while losing every single game with Terran.
So the game is already decided the second we spawn.
How is that fun OR fair for my opponents!?
You are like whining about first world problems
Yeah now shit sherlock, that is the case every single time someone coplains about a PC game.
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On August 20 2012 06:37 jinorazi wrote:
are people bashing random, really feel they lost when lose because they were playing against a random?
some people are so full of themselves.
Yeah that's how I feel. It's not like we didn't know about randoms until recently. We've been playing against them for years and should have developed good openings against them by now. Obviously you can't be optimal vs random due to early scouting and building placement, but it's not the biggest difference.
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Scout earlier
they have more matchups to learn than you
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On August 20 2012 06:35 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:34 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
You are like whining about first world problems Yes, pretty much. A random player will have significantly less experience in different situations than someone who focuses on one race. MMR doesn't really balance it out, from my experience random players I get matched with generally tend to seem like they play on a bit of a lower level than I do. It's not like there's many random players on the ladder anyways. Ladder isn't the biggest deal, losing a game out of 50 or 100 where you played a random as P that spawned Z and opened with a terrible build is so insignificant. Also... if you recall recent tournaments you'll remember the gateway into expand openings that Sase/Naniwa displayed that performed quite well. Learn that build if you're so concerned with facing randoms on ladder that may spawn as Z. Actually, if they are worse players than you, why are they around your MMR ?
That was a personal observation based upon my own experience and the least relevant part of my post. People complaining about this are so full of themselves, no one owes it to you to let you know which race they spawned as. There definitely are openings for every race that transition into the mid-game well enough regardless of what race your opponent is. Also for whoever said random is banned from tournaments because of an unfair advantage, it's not. Guess what? It's just that no pros play random because they can't compete at the highest level with it due to how much extra work they need to invest. Every pro that has started as random has picked a race eventually, and no random player has advanced far in a major tournament.
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On August 20 2012 06:42 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
Complete Bullshit, if I would start playing random on a new account, for the next MONTH I would win 100% of my games as Protoss while losing every single game with Terran. So the game is already decided the second we spawn. How is that fun OR fair for my opponents!?
Now that's bs.
When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. Also naturally you will not be gold-level on your off race when you're masters on your main. It will be more like masters on main and diamond on off. And in that case your winrate with terran will be at about 30% while your winrate with toss will be at about 70-75% to begin with.
I don't complain and I don't see my opponents complaining about the match being already decided with my PvT winrate being about 33% and my PvZ winrate about 63%. It's only natural to have good and bad matchups as a player. And with some players it's even more extreme.
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On August 20 2012 06:45 BearStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:37 jinorazi wrote:
are people bashing random, really feel they lost when lose because they were playing against a random?
some people are so full of themselves. Yeah that's how I feel. It's not like we didn't know about randoms until recently. We've been playing against them for years and should have developed good openings against them by now. Obviously you can't be optimal vs random due to early scouting and building placement, but it's not the biggest difference.
The thing is, it is a "fourth race", you cannot play against random like you play against any of the other races.
However it is not 25% of the players, not even close. It is more like 5-7% and not worth putting time in.
HOWEVER it is possible to play against random like 5 times in a row and get frustrated.
Then I put time in it and think about a build figure it out, lost a day of SC2 and I don't play against random for the rest of the week.
Wow, why would that upset me? Must be something wrong with me.
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I am a diamond random player who enjoys playing all 3 races, and I love the fact that I can go random without having the other person know my race. You know why? It forces people to think on their feet. I feel like one of my biggest strengths is being able to analyze a situation on the fly and make decisions based on what I scout/see, so I love the ability to force my opponent to do the same, instead of just going through the motions of some rehearsed build they've learned from a pro or from Liquipedia. It keeps the game from being stale (for me).
What the people that are attracted to these "random is imba" whine threads like moths to a light bulb need to realize is that they're complaining about the wrong things. For example, when you say, "Random is given an unfair information advantage at the beginning," what you really mean is, "It hurts my ego to know that this guy I just got matched against on the ladder can play all 3 races as well as I can play one."
It is absolutely ludicrous and illogical to claim, "It's their choice to play Random, but that should have no affect on how I play the game." This is pretty much the same thing as saying, "It's their choice if they want to proxy 2 gateways and chrono zealots into my base, but that shouldn't affect my decision to fast expand."
The bottom line is this - if going random is so overpowered, why aren't YOU doing it? If you're not sure of the answer, I'll go ahead and tell you: it's too difficult. We random players enjoy playing all the races, and as a result of not picking a race, we're all actually ranked lower on the ladder than we would be otherwise. There is a reason everyone in favor of random staying the way it is uses the argument, "...but they have to learn 9 matchups instead of 3." It's because it's the only argument needed to justify the way random is currently implemented into the game. As a random player, I have to learn 6 extra matchups. This means learning all the new hotkeys, knowing tons more timings, knowing what units work well in given situations, knowing how much things cost, how long things take to build, etc. etc.
It's a heck of a lot of work, and you know what you have to do to negate ALL of that extra effort? Send a scout earlier than usual. It's destructive to your own playstyle to complain about this kind of thing instead of just dealing with it by learning to think on your feet.
While I hate reading everything all the whiny little kids here have to say, one thing I absolutely LOVE about these kinds of threads is that as long as Blizzard doesn't implement what you're saying, I can laugh, sit back, and enjoy this amazing game the way it was intended to be.
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The only true test of SC2 skill is RvR Those are always the most fun matches to watch as well.
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On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start.
Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively.
Just some figures:
Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random.
Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems.
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On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout.
Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it.
I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make)
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On August 20 2012 06:39 Utukka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:32 perestain wrote:
Random players might believe they learn all matchups, but infact they almost never face a proper opening against the race they roll.
So since its not possible to play a proper early game vs random anyways I usually just fool around with some quick cheese or simply quit if my initial race guess was incorrect. I want to learn the matchups, and don't have time to try out how PvT builds work out against Zerg or the other way around, or how to play from behind from a safety build that I would not do in any matchup.
Not even close, PvZ is the only matchup where it's affected and even then, I've played against plenty of FFE, especially on 2 player maps. I actually have probably played against less cheese than most players just due to the fact that they don't know which cheese to pick.
Your anecdotical evidence is subjective and not relevant,
lets look at statistics:
Against random, you can play
a) a safe-against-everything bullshit buildorder, hoping R somehow cheeses you (proper earlygame for the matchup 0% of the time)
b) a XvZ Build, hoping its zerg (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times)
c) a XvT Build (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times)
d) a XvP Build (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times)
So you will get a proper earlygame in less than 33% of all games, which makes random worse than any other race to learn proper matchups.
Even if protoss for example can combine c) and d) by early scouting, its quite apparent that you will still get a lot of bullshit games if random is involved.
And I simply don't have time for such shenanigans. I'd rather cannonrush or quit instantly and practice the matchups of my race against non-random players instead.
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When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more.
That's why I said "the first month"
Also naturally you will not be gold-level on your off race when you're masters on your main.
Never played a single game of Terran other than Monobattles, trust me I would (this is eu ladder I am talking about)
It will be more like masters on main and diamond on off.
nope.
And in that case your winrate with terran will be at about 30% while your winrate with toss will be at about 70-75% to begin with.
nope
I don't complain and I don't see my opponents complaining about the match being already decided with my PvT winrate being about 33% and my PvZ winrate about 63%.
Sticking to one race, you get somewhat even practice in all matchups.
I think my 2000 Protoss games would make me A LOT better with Protoss than I am with Terran on 0 games.
It's only natural to have good and bad matchups as a player. And with some players it's even more extreme.
Yup.
Say ZvP was my best match-up and Protoss have to play a build they are not comfortable with (gateway expand vs zerg). How is that any fun for them?
And if you say that you don't have a problem playing against random, well good for you. I do and you can not convince me that I have no right to or whatever it is you are trying to tell me.
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On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make)
Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds.
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On August 20 2012 04:58 LordOfDabu wrote:
It's a 4th race and should be treated as such.
This is all that needs to be said. Be happy that it's not balanced to be viable at a professional level.
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On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds.
start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information?
going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe
because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg will not be the sole reason why a protoss would lose.
this is like saying protoss not going nexus first will NEVER win against a 14cc, plainly retarded and this is what so many of you guys are fighting over.
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I cant believe people are actually whining about this. You guys are actually asking for a nerf to Random. LOL
Yes having your race shown to your opponent if you chose Random is a nerf. A retarded one. My mind is blown. Never knew Randoms were such scum that they have to be removed. Chill out.
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I agree random shoudnt be allowed in competitive play, though I dont know about ladder.
The fact that they have to learn more mathcups so your build is fucked is bs.
You have rank X that means you can play at rank X with all 3 races.
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On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:That's why I said "the first month" Show nested quote + Also naturally you will not be gold-level on your off race when you're masters on your main. Never played a single game of Terran other than Monobattles, trust me I would (this is eu ladder I am talking about) nope. Show nested quote +And in that case your winrate with terran will be at about 30% while your winrate with toss will be at about 70-75% to begin with. nope Show nested quote +I don't complain and I don't see my opponents complaining about the match being already decided with my PvT winrate being about 33% and my PvZ winrate about 63%. Sticking to one race, you get somewhat even practice in all matchups. I think my 2000 Protoss games would make me A LOT better with Protoss than I am with Terran on 0 games. Show nested quote +It's only natural to have good and bad matchups as a player. And with some players it's even more extreme. Yup. Say ZvP was my best match-up and Protoss have to play a build they are not comfortable with (gateway expand vs zerg). How is that any fun for them? And if you say that you don't have a problem playing against random, well good for you. I do and you can not convince me that I have no right to or whatever it is you are trying to tell me.
I expect you to watch some games of Starcraft II every now and then since you're posting on teamliquid. So you should be aware of the basics of every matchup. Having played 2000 games regardless of your race additionally gives you the mechanical ability to play any race on a decently high level. Perhaps you should try playing zerg or terran against friends and you'll see that you should be at worst one league behind your protoss level. I know that I always easily roll my platinum neighbour with any race and can do the most crazy builds, even though I'm a protoss player. It's all about the superior mechanics. That's why a pro will always kill the usual player, even if he goes mass scvs.
Always playing a style you're comfortable with is not what ladder is about and is not what you'll ever find on ladder. SC2 is a strategy game and adapting to your opponent is an essential part of it. Without doing that, you just outright die. Not that playing against random would dictate anything else than the early game.
And actually I can't see how it's any more fun to play exactly the same style for hundreds of games, than having a bit of diversion every 20 games or so.
On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds.
Btw, gateway expand.
On August 20 2012 07:12 CrtBalorda wrote:
I agree random shoudnt be allowed in competitive play, though I dont know about ladder.
The fact that they have to learn more mathcups so your build is fucked is bs.
You have rank X that means you can play at rank X with all 3 races.
I absolutely agree, random in competitive play is a really big concern, because there's just so many of them random pros.
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On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose.
Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes?
Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game?
So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first.
And don't give me bullshit that I overestimate the dangers of those cheeses, I played against enough proxy gates/cannrushs from master players to know what I'm talking about.
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On August 19 2012 21:50 justinpal wrote:If you ask me what race I am I tell you unless you are mean.
unfortunately you can't always believe people on the internet.
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On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:That's why I said "the first month"
Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument.
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On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first.
13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout.
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On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first.
if you really think the game is decided on how many chrono boosts used on what or gas timings are the reasons why a person would win or lose, you're seriously delusional(especially in a non pro level). crisis management (vs cheese) is all about proper response and from that point your build order becomes moot, you adapt to the situation.
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There's a tradeoff to playing random. You have to put it more effort to be as good as someone who sticks to one race, and get a tiny advantage as a bonus.
Shouldn't change.
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On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout.
9Scout and 13 Gate?! I don't think that fits very well...
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On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?!
why not?
oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right?
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On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! I don't think that fits very well...
I've never had any problems with it in the last 6 months.
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It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary.
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On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument.
Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins?
After that I get matched vs Master level players.
If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain.
The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin.
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On August 20 2012 06:56 perestain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:39 Utukka wrote:On August 20 2012 06:32 perestain wrote:
Random players might believe they learn all matchups, but infact they almost never face a proper opening against the race they roll.
So since its not possible to play a proper early game vs random anyways I usually just fool around with some quick cheese or simply quit if my initial race guess was incorrect. I want to learn the matchups, and don't have time to try out how PvT builds work out against Zerg or the other way around, or how to play from behind from a safety build that I would not do in any matchup.
Not even close, PvZ is the only matchup where it's affected and even then, I've played against plenty of FFE, especially on 2 player maps. I actually have probably played against less cheese than most players just due to the fact that they don't know which cheese to pick. Your anecdotical evidence is subjective and not relevant, lets look at statistics: Against random, you can play a) a safe-against-everything bullshit buildorder, hoping R somehow cheeses you (proper earlygame for the matchup 0% of the time) b) a XvZ Build, hoping its zerg (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times) c) a XvT Build (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times) d) a XvP Build (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times) So you will get a proper earlygame in less than 33% of all games, which makes random worse than any other race to learn proper matchups. Even if protoss for example can combine c) and d) by early scouting, its quite apparent that you will still get a lot of bullshit games if random is involved. And I simply don't have time for such shenanigans. I'd rather cannonrush or quit instantly and practice the matchups of my race against non-random players instead.
PvP = unaffected, everyone starts off gate/gas/core
vsT, I'd say it's a safe bet that most people 1 rax fe, hence me being random doesn't matter.
vsZ = Pool first or hatch first, I should be scouted by then, pretty standard builds there. Yes a lot of people hatch first against random.
I could provide replays if you actually care to look through my games.
Lastly, not everyone has your attitude towards it and just blows the game off.
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On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right?
nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
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On August 20 2012 07:23 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right? nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
I started 9scouting in PvP since cannonrush had somewhat of a comeback and a 9 scout makes that a freewin.
But 9 scout forces 12 Gate otherwise you waste like 3/4 of a Chronoboost.
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On August 20 2012 07:23 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right? nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
...that is extremely discouraging and repulsive. do what needs to be done, in this case, knowing what your opponent is doing. i think my build being little bit off beat to know what my opponent is doing is worth it. if the build i'm doing requires me to scout after gateway, it better be damn sure that it doesn't need the extra little scout timing.
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On August 20 2012 07:23 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right? nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
I didn't know a gateway/core/zealot being a half a second slower correctly described a 'messed up build.'
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On August 20 2012 07:23 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right? nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
Unless you're gm (where you won't play against randoms anyways) the 9scout won't affect your build at all. Especially considering you're already playing against a random player, who just can't be on your level.
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Wait what the fuck? I play at masters and 9 scout 90% of the time. At the top pro level it might make a significant difference but even high masters it's not going to matter. It's funny seeing people think that they actually play at a high enough level that a probe or chrono boost will determine the outcome of a game.
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On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary.
Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
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On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin.
It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play). If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better.
So lets see, you play random and win 1/3 of your games when you get the race you play (only because of the huge advantage you got from picking random!), or you can continue playing the race you play and win around 50%. Sounds like a good deal to me.
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
Nonono ! You chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" playing a fixed race and having it announced on the loading screen.
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
Is it even a disadvantage on a game to game basis? Seeing as the ladder sets you up with players of your own skill, you are playing someone who is as good with random as you are with your own race. Except they have the advantage of you being blind.
Personally, if it's a 2 player map I just scout immediately and take the mineral disadvantage. If it's not, I go 1rax FE and hope they didn't spawn zerg because I really hate 1rax FEing against zerg.
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On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better.
Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess.
What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her.
If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then.
And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more.
Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words.
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I started playing random because I felt it would make for the biggest challenge to get into masters. If someone asked me what race I was, I always told them.
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On August 20 2012 07:48 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better. Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess. What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her. If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then. And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more. Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words.
That's called smurfing, except using random as a means to do it. You lose more than you win intentionally, but you win convincingly in those that you do win because your opponents are inferior. Anyone can do the same thing without picking random by just leaving 2/3 of their games.
Like you do realize you're basically resigning to the fact you're going to only win 33% of the time right? Just straight up basic smurfing right there.
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On August 20 2012 07:46 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. Is it even a disadvantage on a game to game basis? Seeing as the ladder sets you up with players of your own skill, you are playing someone who is as good with random as you are with your own race. Except they have the advantage of you being blind. Personally, if it's a 2 player map I just scout immediately and take the mineral disadvantage. If it's not, I go 1rax FE and hope they didn't spawn zerg because I really hate 1rax FEing against zerg.
Yes, because you may have a weaker race, you may suffer against certain timing attacks because you don't get as much experience as someone who only plays one race; you constantly have to change your mindset based on what race it gives you, etc. While you play be playing against people close to your MMR, it can be harder to progress and move up.
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On August 20 2012 07:52 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:48 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better. Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess. What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her. If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then. And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more. Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words. That's called smurfing, except using random as a means to do it. You lose more than you win intentionally, but you win convincingly in those that you do win because your opponents are inferior. Anyone can do the same thing without picking random by just leaving 2/3 of their games.
Are you KIDDING ME!?
I never said anything about losing intentionally.
I just play Protoss at a pretty high level and Terran really shitty.
My Zerg is pretty ok as well.
SO I LOSE 1/3rd of the games because i suck as Terran.
It has nothing to do with smurfing or anything like that
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As an occasional random, I use it as a manner check. I give a "gl hf!", and if I get one back, I tell him my race.
It's just part of the game. You're playing a weak opponent (because he doesn't know the lategame of the race he rolled as well as you probably do), who has an early advantage of hiding his race for the first 2 minutes or so.
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I hear a lot of randoms on TeamLiquid say that they announce their race at the beginning of the game, but I've never encoutered a single random in my history of StarCraft playing that has done that. Either some people are just not telling the truth, or I've just not played against any. Probably the second one, but still... I'd expect to see more.
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(zerg)
I always 9 scout against random. Problem solved.
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On August 20 2012 07:29 IcedBacon wrote:
Wait what the fuck? I play at masters and 9 scout 90% of the time. At the top pro level it might make a significant difference but even high masters it's not going to matter. It's funny seeing people think that they actually play at a high enough level that a probe or chrono boost will determine the outcome of a game.
Yeah I 9 scout too and I don't feel it hurts my match ups at all. The only time the 9 scout really hurts is if you are playing PvP on altar. Even in Diamond you still need to be as fast as possible to hold off the 4gates on that map.
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I never really understood why Blizz doesnt solve this simple problem by revealing what the race the random got while loading the game. After all, its already loading the specific race units onto the map so its not like the server doesnt know. and if the server knows why not show it to everyone else?
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Well I just watched the first 5 minutes of your replay and nothing about it seemed broken to me. I'm a 1300 masters zerg and I'm pretty sad that you just wasted my time with your newb league imba complaints. You should really make more of an effort to accept that you don't know what you're talking about for this game. It doesn't matter what happens after initial scouting of normal things because you have established, and quite early on, that you're in a fairly normaal looking ZvP and the fact that he was random was not in any way exploited. His play looks totally standard, btw. Your one gate no wall off is non-standard and outright bad, btw.
tl;dr = Shut up
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you will never lose a game simply because your opponent spawned random. For every race you are against random so long as you actually scout you have solid builds that only deviate after you scout their race.
in my opinion people just like to have a reason for why they lost other than their own bad play, people don't like to face their own inadequacies and its a nice excuse, but in reality no you didn't lose because you had to pylon scout, or went pool first or whatever.
if you just do one strategy for each matchup every game then you'll have problems versus random, so try and learn some new strategies. so many protoss players seem to think that if they don't ffe they automatically lose
the funniest thing is when the other player loses and then tries to call you out on playing an OP race xD
@ice bacon above, yeah what i do is often i just dedicate a bit of time to one race to get that roughly in line with my others.
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On August 20 2012 07:55 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:52 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:48 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better. Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess. What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her. If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then. And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more. Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words. That's called smurfing, except using random as a means to do it. You lose more than you win intentionally, but you win convincingly in those that you do win because your opponents are inferior. Anyone can do the same thing without picking random by just leaving 2/3 of their games. Are you KIDDING ME!? I never said anything about losing intentionally. I just play Protoss at a pretty high level and Terran really shitty. My Zerg is pretty ok as well. SO I LOSE 1/3rd of the games because i suck as Terran. It has nothing to do with smurfing or anything like that
Alright so two races you're decent at. You really think losing all the games you roll Terran as will tank your MMR enough that every opponent you play as P and Z will be 'extremely uneven matched'? It won't, and at most you'll be playing people slightly worse than you usually do. Barely any GMs win 66% of their games. You'll definitely get outplayed even when you roll P or Z.
Now in contrast, if you can only win 33% of your games, then yes that's what I was talking about being essentially the same as smurfing. You know you're going to lose as the other races but you'll win as your main because that amount of losing will certainly drop your MMR down. Anyone actually trying to get better will be able to take the lower MMR opportunity to improve at the other two races. But it's hardly optimal for learning the other races and yes you'll destroy opponents when you get your main. You learn optimally by playing one of the other races from the lowest level you can win at until it's comparable in skill to your main, then do it with the last race. Then you play random and everyone is happy because you're around equally good at all races.
The point was that if you play random and end up playing people at a lower MMR because you suck as the other two races, it's the same thing as what smurfs do and it doesn't mean random is broken. There are ways to go about getting better at all races without playing people much worse than you if that's what concerns you so much.
Have fun with this thread though, keep complaining about random. I have no issues with it because it's not a big deal.
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
You're just being a shit player man. The burden to know what you opponent is doing and to come out ahead against him is ALWAYS on you as someone who is PLAYING THIS GAME. PERIOD. If you have to scout a little bit earlier, boo fucking hoo. Everybody else sucks it up and comes out ahead because random players are universally shit. I swear you're just consoling yourself by trying to turn this, which isn't even close to a molehill, into an entire mountain range. I delight in knowing that your own laziness and feeling entitled to not have to adapt to them is going to make you continue to lose games to them. I don't think you have much of a future in SC2 because you have an extremely self-convenient way of looking at your difficulties, rather than an adaptive and forward moving attitude. In any event, I'm sure our community would appreciate it if you'd stop creating god awful threads. I legit feel like you have to be a troll because this is so ridiculous.
User was warned for this post
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The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course.
It's a game. People just need to understand that not let themselves get bogged down in all this other garbage about fairness and balance of ladder.
You don't see this problem in the competitive scene so it's actually not a problem with the game. Just suck it up and play it for fun, or stop playing and move on with your life because this game is not for you.
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On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it.
why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont
i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use
if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind
if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there
The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course.
wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race
unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time
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was there just as much of a cry in bw too? i dont recall
(i know random pickers were kicked in custom 1v1 race most of time, but because of match up practice...ladder is different)
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
That's the most ridiculous mindset ever.
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No because they would simply ban randoms from their games. :/
"Race?
Race?
No ran"
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On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever.
So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion.
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On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there Show nested quote +The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time
"learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent.
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Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned.
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On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion.
What's ridiculous about their mindset? They skip getting really good with one race to gain the advantage of being able to mess with your head and perhaps get you to play overly safe or overly cheesy to make up for it.
You in turn have the advantage of being practiced with one race against all the races, which should make you better prepared for whatever they throw at you.
Scout early, scout actively, and play accordingly. It's not hard.
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On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion.
Why is it a disadvantage to have to scout your opponent? How late do you normally scout that this is even an issue? :x
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On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned.
why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly because opponent's job will be to disrupt that flow. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not pick on random players.
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On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent.
below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway
also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt
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On August 20 2012 08:38 NrG.ZaM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion. Why is it a disadvantage to have to scout your opponent? How late do you normally scout that this is even an issue? :x
Lol?
It's not a disadvantage having to scout, it's a disadvantage because you don't know their race until you scout them. On a 4 player map this is especially bad if unless you luck out and scout them first otherwise you cut your economy a lot by doing a super early scout or you scout them super late and either way it screws up your opening build order. in ZvP for example you need to know that your opponent is Zerg before you even drop your first pylon, if you don't then you won't be able to FFE and you will likely be behind in economy from the very first moment of the game by no fault of your own.
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On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there Show nested quote +The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time
What?
Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that.
At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random?
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Everybody has forgotten how to 1 gate expand. The players I play on the ladder - very few complain, and most who do aren't gm.
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On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random?
I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. The only way you could not think it's a huge advantage is if you're simply not good enough at this game to understand the importance of information.
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On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players.
Quick answer?
I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight.
I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents..
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I'm always very impressed by people I face who are random cause it means they can do what I do with all races which is really impressive to me
That being said, it is kinda annoying. I'm very glad I rarely face random players cause it adds this element of...well, randomness to the game that doesn't really belong in a game of sc2 imo.
Blizzard could of course instantly solve this if they showed us what race the random player got when the game begins...God that would be nice! Even more of a challenge for the random player of course, but it's a good kind of challenge and being random is already a challenge to overcome in itself.
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On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random?
because i hate playing Toss and Terran
its not just 50-75 minerals, its alot more then that even just looking at lsot mining time and in a ZvZ that means my opponent is 150 minerals ahead of me which is huge
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On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage.
I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random.
Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop.
The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop.
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On August 20 2012 08:44 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players. Quick answer? I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight. I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents..
Sounds like it's your issue, not the random player's.
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On August 20 2012 08:45 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? because i hate playing Toss and Terran its not just 50-75 minerals, its alot more then that even just looking at lsot mining time and in a ZvZ that means my opponent is 150 minerals ahead of me which is huge
Why don't you use the 9scout to block the hatchery if it's such a big deal? Most people don't do it anymore but you can open 15h in ZvZ - if your opponent attempts 15h you can block the hatch, if he opens 15p 16h you've evened out anyway.
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On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly because opponent's job will be to disrupt that flow. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not pick on random players.
As I and many other players have stated already, we have absolutely nothing against the random players. Were debating the mechanic here. Terran basically have nothing to fear vs random, due to 1rax fe neon viable for all matchups. I'm not sure about zvt or zvz,but I think 15 pool 14 hatch is "okay", for all matchups (correct me if I'm wrong). Protoss however have massive changes to their early game depending on their opponent, in which no 1 build is safe vs all 3 matchups.
Please don't claim that we're picking on the players themselves, because we aren't. At least not me.
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Well, with the one-gate expands recently being done by people like Naniwa and Squirtle, all your problems are solved with PvZ.
Seriously, just use the one-gate expand opening (9 pylon, 13 gate, 15 assimilator) and by that time you will know what you're up against and you can branch out from there.
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On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop.
Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR.
There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck.
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I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe.
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On August 20 2012 08:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:45 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? because i hate playing Toss and Terran its not just 50-75 minerals, its alot more then that even just looking at lsot mining time and in a ZvZ that means my opponent is 150 minerals ahead of me which is huge Why don't you use the 9scout to block the hatchery if it's such a big deal? Most people don't do it anymore but you can open 15h in ZvZ - if your opponent attempts 15h you can block the hatch, if he opens 15p 16h you've evened out anyway.
with a drone scout im pretty sure 15 pool into hatch still puts you ahead considering all the minerals you dont have because your drone was wasting time on the other side of the map instead of mining
and what if he does some early pool? you need as many drones as possible to actually hold it and the forewarning doesnt really do anything for you
I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe.
hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so)
plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent
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On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt
Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways.
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On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR. There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck.
What race do you play?
I play all three races individually, and random
TvR: I go 1rax CC depot scout.
PvR: I go 1gate expo (nexus after core) with pylonscout
ZvR: I go 9scout ->15hatch - only don't get 15hatch if I see early pool.
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16 pool 15 hatch is safe vs all types of cheeses and actually puts you ahead in larva because of the queen timing. 1 rax expand is a pretty common build in all matchups anyways. Most people who complain are protosses who are unable (or have forgotten) to 1 gate expand. (even with the recent developments of builds by players such as Naniwa and Squirtle)
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On August 20 2012 08:49 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways.
What if it's a 4player map and you scout them last, now all of that is out the window.
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On August 20 2012 08:46 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:44 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players. Quick answer? I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight. I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents.. Sounds like it's your issue, not the random player's.
Well if 60% of players have the same issue maybe there is a better way than saying "fuck you, deal with it".
Something like... Oh I don't know.. Show the race because transparently it does not make any difference according to you glorious random players
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On August 20 2012 08:49 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways.
its not that cut and dry with blocking a 15 hatch like that, and if your only slightly better then your opponent then he wins because of the leas he got early game
plus in a ZvZ he has better Overlord spread since he knew he could have them whereever he wanted and you couldnt
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On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent
What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters.
Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall.
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On August 20 2012 08:42 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:38 NrG.ZaM wrote:On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion. Why is it a disadvantage to have to scout your opponent? How late do you normally scout that this is even an issue? :x Lol? It's not a disadvantage having to scout, it's a disadvantage because you don't know their race until you scout them. On a 4 player map this is especially bad if unless you luck out and scout them first otherwise you cut your economy a lot by doing a super early scout or you scout them super late and either way it screws up your opening build order. in ZvP for example you need to know that your opponent is Zerg before you even drop your first pylon, if you don't then you won't be able to FFE and you will likely be behind in economy from the very first moment of the game by no fault of your own.
You don't have to FFE pvz though, there are perfectly valid gateway expand builds. On 4 player maps you can send out a second scout to figure out what they are, it's not that big a deal. It's not like you need to send one of your initial 6 workers to scout, just send one after pylon, one after gateway or something, there's no way you'll still be in the dark by the time you have to choose whether you want to expand or tech up or something.
And saying it's a disadvantage because you don't know their race until you scout them is saying it's a disadvantage that you have to scout. Throwing additional conditions on doesn't change what you're whining about, if you complain about having to scout their race, you're still complaining about having to scout. People have brought up situations of proxy gate/rax that you apparently have to see in order to react to, but its only bad if a random is doing it? Just fucking scout their empty main and deal with it, not a problem, you figured out what's going on regardless of their race by scouting. Your build up to that point should be insanely similar already to begin with, it isn't much to ask that you scout before branching off into race-specific strategies.
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On August 20 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:49 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways. What if it's a 4player map and you scout them last, now all of that is out the window.
Then if it was an early pool, you lose. But the other 67% you scout the early pool in the other two positions it's an insta-win. I'll take those odds anyday.
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On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall.
if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win
if they dont do that then there dumb
Then if it was an early pool, you lose. But the other 67% you scout the early pool in the other two positions it's an insta-win. I'll take those odds anyday.
holding an ealry pool is 100% your opening BO not how soon you scout it
no matter how soon you know its coming if you 15 hatch and he pulls all his drones your dead
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On August 20 2012 08:51 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:46 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players. Quick answer? I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight. I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents.. Sounds like it's your issue, not the random player's. Well if 60% of players have the same issue maybe there is a better way than saying "fuck you, deal with it". Something like... Oh I don't know.. Show the race because transparently it does not make any difference according to you glorious random players
Yeah, there is a better way: get better at the game. Your suggestion is ridiculous and entirely unnecessary. By the way, which bodily orifice did you pull 60% out of?
On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb
Send overlord across scout path. See probe. Pull drone and block ramp. Collect ladder points when they try and fail.
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On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb
You can block it with drones. I've stopped many cannon rushes - you get experience doing it.
But the point stands - 2/3 of the time on a 4-player map you will know your opponent is a Protoss so if you really don't want to hatch-first, then fine. Nerchio sends out a scout in ZvP (12scout) now, so the 9scout isn't a huge loss - you can use it to block a FFE nexus.
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On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Then if it was an early pool, you lose. But the other 67% you scout the early pool in the other two positions it's an insta-win. I'll take those odds anyday. holding an ealry pool is 100% your opening BO not how soon you scout it no matter how soon you know its coming if you 15 hatch and he pulls all his drones your dead
Do you even play?
You 9scout - 2/3 of the time you will see your opponent's early pool before you put the hatch down - you can transition into a 15pool and hold easy.
EDIT: Before the 15pool became popular as a standard build top level pros like Dimaga 9scouted all the time.
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On August 20 2012 08:54 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb You can block it with drones. I've stopped many cannon rushes - you get experience doing it. But the point stands - 2/3 of the time on a 4-player map you will know your opponent is a Protoss so if you really don't want to hatch-first, then fine. Nerchio sends out a scout in ZvP (12scout) now, so the 9scout isn't a huge loss - you can use it to block a FFE nexus.
i dont know why he 12 scouts but i can gurantee it is 100% unneccesary lings/overlord will let you know its FFE before you drop your third anyway
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On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb
Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!?
cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate
User was warned for this post
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On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate
pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps...
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On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps...
yeah also you can make all of your drones attack the pylon at the same time -.-
This way.
I see you must be very well informed and up to date on SC2
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On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:54 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb You can block it with drones. I've stopped many cannon rushes - you get experience doing it. But the point stands - 2/3 of the time on a 4-player map you will know your opponent is a Protoss so if you really don't want to hatch-first, then fine. Nerchio sends out a scout in ZvP (12scout) now, so the 9scout isn't a huge loss - you can use it to block a FFE nexus. i dont know why he 12 scouts but i can gurantee it is 100% unneccesary lings/overlord will let you know its FFE before you drop your third anyway
Because you can block Protoss nexus for a long time.
I'm not wasting any more of my time here, you're just set that Random players have this huge hidden advantage - my guess is seeing a random player tilts you and you end up losing lots. Or you just end up cheesing against random players.
So, as other people said: Learn to play and it won't be a problem.
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On August 20 2012 08:57 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... yeah also you can make all of your drones attack the pylon at the same time -.-
you realise im talking about WALLLING in the ramp with pylons? cant get suround when your drones cant get past the ramp
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On August 20 2012 08:58 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:57 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... yeah also you can make all of your drones attack the pylon at the same time -.- you realise im talking about WALLLING in the ramp with pylons? cant get suround when your drones cant get past the ramp
Check the link and shut up.
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On August 20 2012 08:59 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:58 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:57 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... yeah also you can make all of your drones attack the pylon at the same time -.- you realise im talking about WALLLING in the ramp with pylons? cant get suround when your drones cant get past the ramp Check the link and shut up.
drone drill shouldnt really be considered and effective method of breaking that since you lose so much mining time that the Protoss proably still comes out of it way ahead
plus drone drill isnt that easy to do and its nowhere close to being common knowledge
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Generally if people ask what race I play and/or are nice in beginning conversation, I tell them what race I'm playing as
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On August 20 2012 09:01 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:59 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:58 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:57 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... yeah also you can make all of your drones attack the pylon at the same time -.- you realise im talking about WALLLING in the ramp with pylons? cant get suround when your drones cant get past the ramp Check the link and shut up. drone drill shouldnt really be considered and effective method of breaking that since you lose so much mining time that the Protoss proably still comes out of it way ahead plus drone drill isnt that easy to do and its nowhere close to being common knowledge
You do know that Protoss spend AT LEAST 450 minerals on 3 Pylons + Cannon VERY early on, meaning he had to cut a lot of Probes. If Protoss does that you got a freewin. (Again showing 0 knowledge)
And If you lose to it and don't bother spending 5 seconds on google to find out how to deal with it don't bother talking about to the grown-ups pls.
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I switched from random to alternating races every time I queue because people cheesed/did all-ins against me way too much. I don't see the problem with it existing, but it's useless if you want to play regular games. I've certainly enjoyed less cheesing and not having to type my race every game now that I stopped queuing as random, but if I am just playing weird/stupid builds I like the option.
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On August 20 2012 09:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:01 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:59 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:58 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:57 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so)
plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... yeah also you can make all of your drones attack the pylon at the same time -.- you realise im talking about WALLLING in the ramp with pylons? cant get suround when your drones cant get past the ramp Check the link and shut up. drone drill shouldnt really be considered and effective method of breaking that since you lose so much mining time that the Protoss proably still comes out of it way ahead plus drone drill isnt that easy to do and its nowhere close to being common knowledge You do know that Protoss spend AT LEAST 450 minerals on 3 Pylons + Cannon VERY early on, meaning he had to cut a lot of Probes. If Protoss does that you got a freewin. (Again showing 0 knowledge) And If you lose to it and don't bother spending 5 seconds on google to find out how to deal with it don't bother talking about to the grown-ups pls.
You are incredibly rude and ignorant.
Drone drill doesn't work 90% of the time and is a joke, try actually using the strategy next time instead of preaching it when it's so painfully clear you have 0 real experience trying it.
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On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds.
Stop with the caps, you'll come off a bit simple.
If you want a build to 100 food thats safe against everything, damn I hope there isn't one... this would be a terrible terrible game. You're supposed to scout and adjust as part of your build in order to make it safe..
Do you really want to play by following a build order flowchart? But OK I'll humour you, lets start you off, try: a pylon->probe scout, a gate, gas, core (a zealot unless scouting's shown you don't need him)-> after that respond to what you've seen/not seen and cook it up with a bit of what you feel like. Pressure build if they've been over greedy, all in if super greedy, expo if it's safe, you can even come out of gas to speed it up. If a builds so macro you can't keep up because you made a gateway you can almost always kill him with a 4 gate... Hell 3 should do it...
You dont even really need your gate and core up at the ramp, sim it up by your nexus and you're better off vs P or T. You can put 2 more gates at the ramp if needed and if early zerglings you can be safe with a bit of fun micro. You'll probably be in better shape than if a 6-7pool denied your FFE.
Damn I love this game. This stuffs the best part of it, and the best part is you get more of it when vs unannounced randoms‼
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pylon->probe scout, a gate, gas, core
and then the Zerg outmacros you and win
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On August 20 2012 09:22 Forikorder wrote:and then the Zerg outmacros you and win
yep, quite easily. 1gate expo not bad but if you're taking gas and core before your nexus it's set you back decently unless you also risk more money into a stalker or something and can manage to make your enemy stop droning enough.
When you get up to higher leagues it's aaallll about cutting as many corners as possible and utilizing every little advantage you can get, no info at the start of the game is really hard to play from.
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On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR.There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck.
Likewise, the random advantage means nothing as the random who wins by abusing this advantage has MMR that matches his opponent.
I'm a random that announces my race at the start. It's up to my opponent to choose whether to believe me. They'll usually early scout and be surprised when I'm actually the race that I announced. So I guess even with race announcing, I still gain a random advantage
I don't really care how random is handled on the ladder. I'm OK with it being hidden. It takes more work to get to a certain level as random than it does with a single race, but for me personally, I'd like it more if my race was revealed during the loading screen. It saves me a few key strokes and it removes any advantage that I don't want. I'd also like the reveal to be during the load screen instead of after the game starts because some people might need a few seconds to mentally prepare for a certain mu on a certain map
Maybe it would be OK if there was a checkbox that reveals my race when I choose random. It wouldn't make anyone any more happy vs randoms who don't announce, but it would make me happy and my happiness is obviously worth more
+ Show Spoiler +
As for why I random:
1) The line in the ke$ha spoof that goes "I roll with random every game cuz that's the only way to play"
2) Achievements. That's right. Achievements
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On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps...
Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above.
And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff.
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On August 20 2012 09:22 Forikorder wrote:and then the Zerg outmacros you and win
You paint quite the picture.
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On August 20 2012 09:30 Purind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR.There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck. Likewise, the random advantage means nothing as the random who wins by abusing this advantage has MMR that matches his opponent. I'm a random that announces my race at the start. It's up to my opponent to choose whether to believe me. They'll usually early scout and be surprised when I'm actually the race that I announced. So I guess even with race announcing, I still gain a random advantage I don't really care how random is handled on the ladder. I'm OK with it being hidden. It takes more work to get to a certain level as random than it does with a single race, but for me personally, I'd like it more if my race was revealed during the loading screen. It saves me a few key strokes and it removes any advantage that I don't want. I'd also like the reveal to be during the load screen instead of after the game starts because some people might need a few seconds to mentally prepare for a certain mu on a certain map Maybe it would be OK if there was a checkbox that reveals my race when I choose random. It wouldn't make anyone any more happy vs randoms who don't announce, but it would make me happy and my happiness is obviously worth more + Show Spoiler +
As for why I random:
1) The line in the ke$ha spoof that goes "I roll with random every game cuz that's the only way to play"
2) Achievements. That's right. Achievements
Well you're wrong about your first point. See, if you have to learn 3 races your MMR is automatically to be adjusted meaning you play people of generally equal skill to you. Since you play random and they don't know your race, now you simply have an information advantage vs a person of otherwise equal skill to you. MMR doesn't account for metagame advantages.
Also I'm sure you think you're being a nice guy by announcing your race but it's an empty gesture, your opponent has literally 0 reason to believe you and many random players will straight up lie to them about what race they are anyways so there's no way your opponent can blindly trust you. If you really wanted your opponent to know your race you would pick a race.
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random forces the other player to open up weird, i guess playing against a random you really just have to scout really early
but playing random can be a lot of fun, it allows you to get a great overall feel of the game, every match up, every map
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On August 20 2012 09:22 Forikorder wrote:and then the Zerg outmacros you and win
Yeah, because no pro ever uses a gateway first build.
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On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR. There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck.
Absolute rubbish. As terran or toss you can totally do a build that deviates AFTER you scout, and as zerg you can early scout on a 2-player map and chance a hatch-first on 4-player maps. At worst, its a calculated risk. "Pure luck", rofl.
Edit: Not saying there is no advantage to playing random but its slight, almost negligible with decent build choice, and due to mechanics it will even out if the game goes to midgame. Don't be so utterly sensational about it lol, its hard to take the rest of what you say seriously.
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There's this odd defeatist attitude lurking around this thread. A player's economy doesn't take that much of a hit from an early scout. You might be a few seconds behind, but you gain valuable information and generally peace of mind.
The only real complaint I see on here is that people are annoyed that they "have" to be the one to scout earlier.
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On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned.
Get some new builds?
And your reasons for not wanting to play random obviously don't apply to everyone who plays random. In fact, as a random player, none of those translate to my mentality. I play random for fun, and that's it. I like winning, but I value fun over winning. I will continue to play random until I stop playing the game.
This whole fairness argument is complete and utter bullshit. This game isn't built on a level playing field. Some people have better mechanics, other have better mindsets, others better reactions and others think the game better. If you can't adapt to not going FFE vs zerg then you deserve to lose the game. If you can only win by FFE you are the inferior player and need to learn some new builds. No race is equal, and no player is equal. SC2 is a game of inequalities and is just about managing those differences. You just need to figure out how to.
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On August 20 2012 09:35 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:30 Purind wrote:On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR.There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck. Likewise, the random advantage means nothing as the random who wins by abusing this advantage has MMR that matches his opponent. I'm a random that announces my race at the start. It's up to my opponent to choose whether to believe me. They'll usually early scout and be surprised when I'm actually the race that I announced. So I guess even with race announcing, I still gain a random advantage I don't really care how random is handled on the ladder. I'm OK with it being hidden. It takes more work to get to a certain level as random than it does with a single race, but for me personally, I'd like it more if my race was revealed during the loading screen. It saves me a few key strokes and it removes any advantage that I don't want. I'd also like the reveal to be during the load screen instead of after the game starts because some people might need a few seconds to mentally prepare for a certain mu on a certain map Maybe it would be OK if there was a checkbox that reveals my race when I choose random. It wouldn't make anyone any more happy vs randoms who don't announce, but it would make me happy and my happiness is obviously worth more + Show Spoiler +
As for why I random:
1) The line in the ke$ha spoof that goes "I roll with random every game cuz that's the only way to play"
2) Achievements. That's right. Achievements
Well you're wrong about your first point. See, if you have to learn 3 races your MMR is automatically to be adjusted meaning you play people of generally equal skill to you. Since you play random and they don't know your race, now you simply have an information advantage vs a person of otherwise equal skill to you. MMR doesn't account for metagame advantages. Also I'm sure you think you're being a nice guy by announcing your race but it's an empty gesture, your opponent has literally 0 reason to believe you and many random players will straight up lie to them about what race they are anyways so there's no way your opponent can blindly trust you. If you really wanted your opponent to know your race you would pick a race.
So, your MMR is automatically adjusted for you having to learn three races, but it isn't automatically adjusted for any perceived build order advantage you may have........? Good logic there.
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I believe that random is in a certain sense its own race. The player risks the possibilty of getting a bad race for the addition of the mystery factor. Since it is its own race you need builds for it that may look similar to ffe but cant be teched out of it. Have you tried gateway first in PvZ? Random has its own balance which is why it effects both opponents
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On August 19 2012 21:54 Tao367 wrote:
Also, while this seems like a small point to bring up, as a follow up point, pros will never have to deal with random players. If Blizzard wants to make the ladder similar to tournaments as they say, random is directly countering that philosophy.
pros will never have to deal with random players because pros focus on 1 race. it is far easier to learn 1 race than all 3 and get success. can you even name one pro that plays random AND gets success?
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On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it.
This exact thing
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Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum.
Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players.
So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE).
I understand many players will not agree with this, but why?
My personal opinion is this:
A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong).
Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience.
Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why.
To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself.
You're acting like a child. Why shouldn't it affect you? If they choose zerg, it affects you. If they choose toss, it affects you. Suck it up, cry baby, and send an earlier scout. That's what a random player gets: a few minerals advantage because they can scout later than you. Just get better and deal with it.
Why don't you argue that toss players have to use a different server then? Or zerg? Gotta change things up against them too, you know- or don't you?
Somebody's got to close this thread, this is an eyesore.
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On August 20 2012 09:39 CptCutter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:54 Tao367 wrote:
Also, while this seems like a small point to bring up, as a follow up point, pros will never have to deal with random players. If Blizzard wants to make the ladder similar to tournaments as they say, random is directly countering that philosophy. pros will never have to deal with random players because pros focus on 1 race. it is far easier to learn 1 race than all 3 and get success. can you even name one pro that plays random AND gets success?
Guinea Pig and Gumiho both played random during the open seasons of the GSL (2010) but later switched to focus on one race. =
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One time I was playing a PVZ and the zerg 6 pooled me, so my FFE was useless. What the hell is that? Blizzard should incorporate something so that if someone 6 pools you, it lets you know so you're able to prepare for it. Someone being able to use a build against you without you knowing just gives them an unfair advantage.
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On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff.
so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone
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On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone
So pay attention and micro better.
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On August 20 2012 09:41 Natespank wrote:Show nested quote +
Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum.
Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players.
So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE).
I understand many players will not agree with this, but why?
My personal opinion is this:
A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong).
Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience.
Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why.
To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself.
You're acting like a child. Why shouldn't it affect you? If they choose zerg, it affects you. If they choose toss, it affects you. Suck it up, cry baby, and send an earlier scout. That's what a random player gets: a few minerals advantage because they can scout later than you. Just get better and deal with it. Why don't you argue that toss players have to use a different server then? Or zerg? Gotta change things up against them too, you know- or don't you? Somebody's got to close this thread, this is an eyesore.
Way to miss the entire point of the thread.
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On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone
Then you deserve to lose because you aren't paying attention/can't spare the 3 extra apm to bring another drone and send the other one back to mine -- and I'm pretty sure 99% of Terrans have learned to do this by gold league.
edit: Turns out in base proxies can kill you if you aren't paying attention. Solution: remove inbase proxies.
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On August 20 2012 09:56 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone Then you deserve to lose because you aren't paying attention/can't spare the 3 extra apm to bring another drone and send the other one back to mine -- and I'm pretty sure 99% of Terrans have learned to do this by gold league. Turns out in base proxies can kill you if you aren't paying attention. Solution: Remove inbase proxies.
then you have 2 drones not mining so your losing even more minerals and are behind even without him having to pylon wall
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Why the fuck is there a pylon block discussion in this thread. Even when you know you're against toss you have to like 9pool to get lings out in time to stop it. And terran can 11/11 bunker rush just as easily. That's not a random issue at all, you just NEED to watch your natural. Always.
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On August 20 2012 09:58 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:56 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone Then you deserve to lose because you aren't paying attention/can't spare the 3 extra apm to bring another drone and send the other one back to mine -- and I'm pretty sure 99% of Terrans have learned to do this by gold league. Turns out in base proxies can kill you if you aren't paying attention. Solution: Remove inbase proxies. then you have 2 drones not mining so your losing even more minerals and are behind even without him having to pylon wall
Are you for real? You have one drone not mining with a brief second that the second drone won't be mining. How in the fuck has any Terran on this Earth ever won against probe micro, considering a Protoss forces way more SCV pulls than a Zerg would ever dream of having to. I guess an SCV dying is the better alternative.
First world problems, dood.
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Artosis himself said the RvP was the most imba MU in the game. I agree. It's fine if they spawn P or T since openings for PvT and PvP are similar enough up until you can scout them. If they end up being Z tho it's a bummer for sure since you're forced into 1 base play instead of FFE is which is the standard. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about it but as a P player it is really frustrating
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On August 20 2012 09:58 Kasu wrote:
Why the fuck is there a pylon block discussion in this thread. Even when you know you're against toss you have to like 9pool to get lings out in time to stop it. And terran can 11/11 bunker rush just as easily. That's not a random issue at all, you just NEED to watch your natural. Always.
if they pylon wall and you 14 pool the lings jsut kill the pylons and then go kill the toss...
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On August 20 2012 10:01 VictorJones wrote:
Artosis himself said the RvP was the most imba MU in the game. I agree. It's fine if they spawn P or T since openings for PvT and PvP are similar enough up until you can scout them. If they end up being Z tho it's a bummer for sure since you're forced into 1 base play instead of FFE is which is the standard. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about it but as a P player it is really frustrating
You can totally gateway expand you know. There are plenty of 1- and 2-gate options with earlier pressure than FFE. The followups are a bit more limited, yes, but they are absolutely viable expand builds.
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If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time.
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Russian Federation390 Posts
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random
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On August 20 2012 06:50 SnareSpectre wrote:
I am a diamond random player who enjoys playing all 3 races, and I love the fact that I can go random without having the other person know my race. You know why? It forces people to think on their feet. I feel like one of my biggest strengths is being able to analyze a situation on the fly and make decisions based on what I scout/see, so I love the ability to force my opponent to do the same, instead of just going through the motions of some rehearsed build they've learned from a pro or from Liquipedia. It keeps the game from being stale (for me).
I've seen the argument of "I like thinking on my feet and my opponents should have to do so too!" a few times now. It makes no sense as you as a random instantly knows the matchup when you load the map and can use whatever standard build-order you use against that race, where as your opponent is the only one needing to scout super-early and from there adapt whatever build order they chose to start out with. The random-player does not need think on his feet at any point and does not need to "analyze a situation on the fly" more than any other race in any other match-up. Regardless whether the random race should be shown or not, this is a poor argument.
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On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time.
Rofl, why would it bother you that much?
SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes.
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On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random
odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts"
probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude
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On August 20 2012 10:02 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:58 Kasu wrote:
Why the fuck is there a pylon block discussion in this thread. Even when you know you're against toss you have to like 9pool to get lings out in time to stop it. And terran can 11/11 bunker rush just as easily. That's not a random issue at all, you just NEED to watch your natural. Always. if they pylon wall and you 14 pool the lings jsut kill the pylons and then go kill the toss...
Wrong.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340956#13
This guy tested it, 11pool doesn't kill it before cannon is up. You HAVE to stop the 3 pylons going down.
Edit: Unless the toss does some shitty late half-ass attempt at it I guess.
Edit 2: I guess you might get a couple of lings outside your base. But then you still have a cannon below your ramp and toss will have one up in his base too so that's hardly a solution.
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On August 20 2012 10:07 Aelos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:50 SnareSpectre wrote:
I am a diamond random player who enjoys playing all 3 races, and I love the fact that I can go random without having the other person know my race. You know why? It forces people to think on their feet. I feel like one of my biggest strengths is being able to analyze a situation on the fly and make decisions based on what I scout/see, so I love the ability to force my opponent to do the same, instead of just going through the motions of some rehearsed build they've learned from a pro or from Liquipedia. It keeps the game from being stale (for me). I've seen the argument of "I like thinking on my feet and my opponents should have to do so too!" a few times now. It makes no sense as you as a random instantly knows the matchup when you load the map and can use whatever standard build-order you use against that race, where as your opponent is the only one needing to scout super-early and from there adapt whatever build order they chose to start out with. The random-player does not need think on his feet at any point and does not need to "analyze a situation on the fly" more than any other race in any other match-up. Regardless whether the random race should be shown or not, this is a poor argument.
As a random player, I've had people blind 14 CC, blind proxy gate, blind 15 hatch, blind 10 pool, etc. There are plenty of times I'm actually at a BO disadvantage unless I scout early.
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Whats with all the animosity towards random players lol. Its no problem as a zerg, I scout at 13 and work he matchup from there.
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On August 20 2012 10:13 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:02 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 09:58 Kasu wrote:
Why the fuck is there a pylon block discussion in this thread. Even when you know you're against toss you have to like 9pool to get lings out in time to stop it. And terran can 11/11 bunker rush just as easily. That's not a random issue at all, you just NEED to watch your natural. Always. if they pylon wall and you 14 pool the lings jsut kill the pylons and then go kill the toss... Wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340956#13This guy tested it, 11pool doesn't kill it before cannon is up. You HAVE to stop the 3 pylons going down. Edit: Unless the toss does some shitty late half-ass attempt at it I guess.
Or 14 pool and use your queen to take out the cannon from the high ground and then baneling bust/roach all in them, use the drone mineral trick to take down the wall before the cannon finishes, etc. I've never lost a pylon wall when I 14 pool.
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On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude
I have
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On August 20 2012 10:15 Advocado wrote:
Whats with all the animosity towards random players lol. Its no problem as a zerg, I scout at 13 and work he matchup from there.
Yeah its very rarely an issue unless they cheese, in which case guess what they could have done that with a dedicated race and it's a less entertaining game either way. I think some people just don't like adjusting their play, and some just tell themselves "random OP" so they can pretend for yet another game that they didn't deserve to lose.
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On August 20 2012 10:16 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:13 Kasu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:02 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 09:58 Kasu wrote:
Why the fuck is there a pylon block discussion in this thread. Even when you know you're against toss you have to like 9pool to get lings out in time to stop it. And terran can 11/11 bunker rush just as easily. That's not a random issue at all, you just NEED to watch your natural. Always. if they pylon wall and you 14 pool the lings jsut kill the pylons and then go kill the toss... Wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340956#13This guy tested it, 11pool doesn't kill it before cannon is up. You HAVE to stop the 3 pylons going down. Edit: Unless the toss does some shitty late half-ass attempt at it I guess. Or 14 pool and use your queen to take out the cannon from the high ground and then baneling bust/roach all in them, use the drone mineral trick to take down the wall before the cannon finishes, etc. I've never lost a pylon wall when I 14 pool.
Yeah should have said that I meant survive without being a long way behind. True you can just all-in and hope as in any other case when you get behind, but you should lose if you play standard and about equal to toss.
Edit: Also if the cannon is within queen range from the top of the ramp then that's a shit execution by toss. It should be pylons only, leaving you with the choice to spread creep and spine them down, use a queen, or run units by for your all-in because there's no way you're even close to economically level by this stage.
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Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds.
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I play P as a mid-diamond, and in the PvR matchup I just nexus first... it gives me about a 2/3 win chance, which is pretty good.
If they are T or Z, they normally aren't used to playing against a nexus first from P, so I am normally able to beat them in the macro game (I find they rarely cheese), since their build will be behind from what they are used to.
Just remember that assuming the random player's MMR has stabilised, it will normally be against sub-optimised builds that they have the 50% win-rate against, meaning that if you are using an optimised build (nexus first), you are going to be the favoured player.
If they roll P... well I lose about 70% of the time. However the other 30% of the time they go for a 1-2 gate expand, or go for a phoenix build, both of which actually lose to nexus first on most maps.
You can also roll the dice a bit more by hiding the nexus first (daybreak and cloud kingdom are great maps for this), which increases your chances against P, but makes it harder against Z, and about the same chance against T if you go for a 2 base timing.
Edit: Also, I run into random players in about 10-15% of games, which means it is pretty much a free win for me in 7-10% of games XD.
After all, if a random player is rolling the dice, you simply need to rig that die in your favour.
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On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude
I've seen at least 10 people say that so far. I've always told my race when asked.
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On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude
about 3 or 4 people said that they tell people their race within the first 5 pages lol
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On August 20 2012 07:53 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:46 The KY wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. Is it even a disadvantage on a game to game basis? Seeing as the ladder sets you up with players of your own skill, you are playing someone who is as good with random as you are with your own race. Except they have the advantage of you being blind. Personally, if it's a 2 player map I just scout immediately and take the mineral disadvantage. If it's not, I go 1rax FE and hope they didn't spawn zerg because I really hate 1rax FEing against zerg. Yes, because you may have a weaker race, you may suffer against certain timing attacks because you don't get as much experience as someone who only plays one race; you constantly have to change your mindset based on what race it gives you, etc. While you play be playing against people close to your MMR, it can be harder to progress and move up.
This is getting much much closer to the truth. We random players get our macro practice split between 3 different mechanics, our tech builds very diverse race-to-race and situation-to-situation and so are rarely getting focused practice. The numbers tell the tale: Only 3 Random players sit in grandmasters. Randoms take up 4.0% in masters, 6.3% in diamond, 8.3% in platinum ... this is not a mechanism to rise high and sit atop everybody with the early game scouting, economy, or tech advantage. For every Random player competing in masters, there's 8 protoss, 7 terran, and 9 zergs. I take these statistics from "NA" server for reference.
On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
Oh, its not a one-for-one exchange, quid pro quo. I am introducing to you a 4th matchup and you preparing for 3 matchups is unwise if ladder is your thing (If you're at the level of qualifying for tournaments at the highest level, you will find much fewer randoms than on ladder). That's the burden. Randoms also play other randoms and you know what ... it's usually (for me) accompanied by friendly banter from people that have fun on the ladder. I have an early scouting build for when I RvR. Drone scout, scv scout, probe scout. Relax, learn to have fun laddering. If you make it to GSL, the last time a random competed there was in Ro64 in 2010. He did not advance to the round of 32. GL!
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On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds.
Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups.
Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head.
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On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head.
GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
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Just putting it out there, but as a random player, I can tell you that it affects more than just pvz. It affects zerg most, as they dont know whether to hatch first or gas first or pool first. Yes it affects pvz too though, I understand...even randoms play vs randoms haha. Bare in mind this also works the other way around. If you were toss, i was R and spawned as Z, I could not, as I would if I were just straight zerg, know for almost certain that you would FFE and thus take early hatches because you know I'm Z...you might end up 4gating or w/e, which would be unexpected...it works both ways.
RE the FFE...there are viable 1gate expands vs zerg, even at pro level.. learn one of them, naniwa does some good ones.
RE revealing race: I personally tell anyone who asks what race I spawn as, because I don't use it to gain an advantage, I use it because I love the challenge and I love all the races. That said, you would think I wouldn't mind if my race was revealed at the start. But I would. I feel those who do play it for an advantage deserve it because, as you said, they have to learn more matchups, more builds, more tactics....everything. The way I see it, if you lost a game to a random player with him playing random, if he'd played one race his whole career, he'd be much better than you anyway, so you've not lost any points as a result of him playing random.
RE the "cheesed by randoms"....if you lose to cheese, you did something wrong, or they got lucky with spawns or w/e (which will happen less than half the time, so wins>losses), regardless of what race they are. In terms of not learning anything from the matchup....neither do people who cheese, but thats still fine. You play what you enjoy, and if you enjoy cheesing, its just as viable a way of winning, and it also takes skill to do consistenly well with it in a high league....look at korea.
In summary, for those with a lack of attention span...no I don't agree it should be done, I'd recommend asking each person their race, you might get lucky. Though you might end up with a suboptimal build, they suffer from suboptimal builds because they do them 66% less than they would otherwise, so its subop vs subop anyway. Finally, you should always be ready to defend or lose to and learn from cheese.
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Went from zerg to random purely to fuck with protoss who can't FFE if i roll zerg. This thread confirms I made the right choice.
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On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude
I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same.
Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat.
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On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss.
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On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
vs gateway expands you can take a 6-630 minute third and max out slightly later. P has comparatively even more delayed econ so it doesn't matter. If they don't expand, you just stay on 2.
It's a pain in the ass playing random and not getting to play real ZvP games, anyways - nobody's going to do a FFE, and who the hell practices anything else? People will default to going all-in in a ton of the cases. Yeah, I could pre-pick my race with a die or something but I also like being able to say 'look, I play entirely random, and can get to X rank on the ladder'. Sure, I tell people my race if they ask, but if I was playing main race vs random and someone told me, I wouldn't trust them for a second.
Add a way to display it, and you fix some problems :/
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On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss.
You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus.
On August 20 2012 11:32 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. vs gateway expands you can take a 6-630 minute third and max out slightly later. P has comparatively even more delayed econ so it doesn't matter. If they don't expand, you just stay on 2. It's a pain in the ass playing random and not getting to play real ZvP games, anyways - nobody's going to do a FFE, and who the hell practices anything else? People will default to going all-in in a ton of the cases. Yeah, I could pre-pick my race with a die or something but I also like being able to say 'look, I play entirely random, and can get to X rank on the ladder'. Sure, I tell people my race if they ask, but if I was playing main race vs random and someone told me, I wouldn't trust them for a second. Add a way to display it, and you fix some problems :/
Get a smurf account? You aren't playing zerg, you're playing random.
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On August 20 2012 11:35 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss. You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus.
You take a 4 minute third vs FFE because it can't put on aggression.
You take a 6-630 third vs gateway expand and the game plays out the same way only slightly delayed - only if anything, P's econ takes a bigger hit.
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I play random because I like doing all 3 races.
I get cheesed more than I cheese the opponents. I will all-in on 2 mirror matchups and that's really it. 4-3-2 ratio of early expand/early aggression/cheese builds.
I think people really do underestimate the increased difficulty involved with learning 3 times the builds. I understand that it can be frustrating to not know, and real frustrating to get surprise 6-pooled, but consider the fact that even if you added a 4th build to your reproitoire to deal with randoms, you would still be using 5 fewer builds than a random player, and you would be doing yourself a favor by learning a new build that was viable in many situations.
The only race really boned by randoms early on is toss, and that's mostly because of building placement issues. Zergs complain about not being able to 15 hatch, but expo blocking is common anyway so it shouldn't be that crazy to have have an answer. Terran has pretty much no penalty for walling off, their builds deviate from one another more slowly, and can build an expo in their base if they're super paranoid, so I really don't sympathise with them much at all.
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On August 20 2012 11:37 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:35 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss. You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus. You take a 4 minute third vs FFE because it can't put on aggression. You take a 6-630 third vs gateway expand and the game plays out the same way only slightly delayed - only if anything, P's econ takes a bigger hit.
Quotee insinuated you could max on roaches like it'd hit before any relevant pressure and walk over the protoss. P's econ only takes a bigger hit if you can't force lings with a build suited towards fast pressure, not econ.
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On August 20 2012 11:41 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:37 Dfgj wrote:On August 20 2012 11:35 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss. You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus. You take a 4 minute third vs FFE because it can't put on aggression. You take a 6-630 third vs gateway expand and the game plays out the same way only slightly delayed - only if anything, P's econ takes a bigger hit. Quotee insinuated you could max on roaches like it'd hit before any relevant pressure and walk over the protoss. P's econ only takes a bigger hit if you can't force lings with a build suited towards fast pressure, not econ.
It looks more like he was asking how they fared.
Early max roaches (with burrow) wrecked P for ages when 3gate expand was the norm, but that was also on less defensible maps.
On August 20 2012 11:40 FuzzyYeti wrote:
I think people really do underestimate the increased difficulty involved with learning 3 times the builds.
You're not learning 3x the builds. You're learning 1/3 the builds per matchup that a single-race player would. Your post even explains how your play is relatively limited in variety within each matchup.
At master league random I don't have a fraction of the depth I do in my main race.
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its deffinitely annoying. i used to FFE vs random back when Oz showed that it was possible to FFE vs terran, and if they were protoss i'd just cannon rush.
now i just do the in base pylon again as naniwa has shown u can do it against zerg to meta game them since they dont open gas anymore
since most maps are 2 player these days its pretty easy to 9 scout and if theyre zerg u can nex first or w/e
but if its a 4 player map like entombed or antiga and u scout last (which always happens) then suck it up and play from behind. not much else you can do im afraid, toss deffinitely has the hardest time opening against random than the other 2 races imo.
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On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same. Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat.
If you play random you are no different from them
If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him.
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On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
That actually happens to me a lot. You have to stay on 2 base longer against a gateway expanding toss, they can hit their offensive timing pushes much faster with that build especially if you don't put on heavy pressure earlier.
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On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes.
It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random.
I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional.
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Just do some cheese vs random.
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On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional.
It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it.
The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional.
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On August 20 2012 12:11 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it. The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional.
You have literally no argument for your completely wrong statement and I can also promise you I play this game more and at a higher level than you.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional.
SC2 is a game of unfair, balanced advantages. Learn to deal with it. I'm just gonna paste my original quote because again, picking random is apparently SO advantageous that you will win lots of tournaments. Or at the very least rank high on ladder. Maybe not, but you'll get lots of portraits.
+ Show Spoiler [random statistics] +Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random.
Also, lol @ proper game.
On August 20 2012 12:12 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it. The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional. You have literally no argument for your completely wrong statement and I can also promise you I play this game more and at a higher level than you.
Which level is that? If it was high enough you'd play few to virtually no random players, lol! (see spoiler above, again).
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On August 20 2012 12:12 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it. The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional. You have literally no argument for your completely wrong statement and I can also promise you I play this game more and at a higher level than you.
And what argument do you have for your wrong statement. You basically just did an "i'm right, you're wrong." without a shred of reasoning to back it up.
Look, if Random was truly an unfair advantage, there'd be pro players playing Random. The fact is there aren't any because playing Random is too difficult at any level compared to playing a single race. Go and ask TLO yourself the next time you see him, he'll admit to it just like everyone that's actually tried played Random for a long period of time will admit to it. It's not an opinion it's fact.
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On August 20 2012 12:14 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. SC2 is a game of unfair, balanced advantages. Learn to deal with it. I'm just gonna paste my original quote because again, apparently picking random is SO advantageous that you will win lots of tournaments. Or at the very least rank high on ladder. Maybe not, but you'll get lots of portraits. + Show Spoiler +Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random. Also, lol @ proper game.
You're really trying to use tourney winnings to make your point? I'm intellectually insulted you need me to explain why that is retarded. These people make SC2 their entire career, they spend all day playing this game, obviously when you're at that point you don't have the time to be learning 3 races when there is an infinite amount of practice to be putting into winning with just 1 race and in a tourney setting MMR means nothing unlike in ladder.
Also yes, I put "proper" in quotations because technically there is no thing but what I mean is a game where neither player has an inherent advantage.
And what argument do you have for your wrong statement. You basically just did an "i'm right, you're wrong." without a shred of reasoning to back it up.
Look, if Random was truly an unfair advantage, there'd be pro players playing Random. The fact is there aren't any because playing Random is too difficult at any level compared to playing a single race. Go and ask TLO yourself the next time you see him, he'll admit to it just like everyone that's actually tried played Random for a long period of time will admit to it. It's not an opinion it's fact
Well I just explained the whole part about why pros don't play random. As for the other part, playing Random gives an inherent advantage in the fact that one player doesn't know the starting race of the other player, BAM inherent advantage. Also, in ladder you are both bound to the same MMR so even though your attention is divided between 3 races you're still at the same skill level, just with an advantage every single time.
This should really all be common sense, kinda sad and just so delusional.
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Can we close this thread? This arguement won't ever be decided. There are 3 groups of people:
1. Random players
2. Others that hate Random
3. Those that are indifferent.
People aren't going to be swayed to change groups. There is no reason to keep brining this up.
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On August 20 2012 12:18 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:14 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. SC2 is a game of unfair, balanced advantages. Learn to deal with it. I'm just gonna paste my original quote because again, apparently picking random is SO advantageous that you will win lots of tournaments. Or at the very least rank high on ladder. Maybe not, but you'll get lots of portraits. + Show Spoiler +Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random. Also, lol @ proper game. You're really trying to use tourney winnings to make your point? I'm intellectually insulted you need me to explain why that is retarded. These people make SC2 their entire career, they spend all day playing this game, obviously when you're at that point you don't have the time to be learning 3 races when there is an infinite amount of practice to be putting into winning with just 1 race and in a tourney setting MMR means nothing unlike in ladder. Also yes, I put "proper" in quotations because technically there is no thing but what I mean is a game where neither player has an inherent advantage.
It's just over-the-top evidence that implies that when you're at any relevant level of skill in SC2, random players will take very few to no games off of you. They're extremely rare in higher leagues because it's difficult to win consistently against much more consistent players. Not just pro players. You'd know that if you read any further.
Please re-read the edited post of mine you quoted, I'd love to be humored by the response. I hope you realize the monumental irony in whining about random, while simultaneously boasting your own skill level. At that point you should probably realize your opinion is fairly irrelevant. There is no issue with random. Deal with it. Thousands of others have by literally in the most plainest form, getting better. GG.
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On August 20 2012 12:00 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same. Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat. If you play random you are no different from them If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him.
Just one simple question, why?
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On August 20 2012 12:20 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:18 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 12:14 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. SC2 is a game of unfair, balanced advantages. Learn to deal with it. I'm just gonna paste my original quote because again, apparently picking random is SO advantageous that you will win lots of tournaments. Or at the very least rank high on ladder. Maybe not, but you'll get lots of portraits. + Show Spoiler +Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random. Also, lol @ proper game. You're really trying to use tourney winnings to make your point? I'm intellectually insulted you need me to explain why that is retarded. These people make SC2 their entire career, they spend all day playing this game, obviously when you're at that point you don't have the time to be learning 3 races when there is an infinite amount of practice to be putting into winning with just 1 race and in a tourney setting MMR means nothing unlike in ladder. Also yes, I put "proper" in quotations because technically there is no thing but what I mean is a game where neither player has an inherent advantage. It's just over-the-top evidence that implies that when you're at any relevant level of skill in SC2, random players will take very few to no games off of you. They're extremely rare in higher leagues because it's difficult to win consistently against much more consistent players. Not just pro players. You'd know that if you read any further. Please re-read the edited post of mine you quoted, I'd love to be humored by the response. I hope you realize the monumental irony in whining about random, while simultaneously boasting your own skill level. At that point you should probably realize your opinion is fairly irrelevant.
I did read what you wrote, unlike most people in this thread I actually read things before I respond. Ok since you're still clearly missing the basic point I'm going to give you the simplistic version of it to grasp.
Playing Random DOES NOT help you get to GM or likely even high Masters.
Playing Random DOES help you in every specific individual match you play.
Learning 3 races doesn't matter on ladder because of MMR.
Learning 3 races does matter in tournaments because there is NO MMR.
Got it? Good.
On August 20 2012 12:29 FaiL_SaFe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:00 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same. Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat. If you play random you are no different from them If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him. Just one simple question, why?
Because something close to half the people who say what race they got are lying, from my experience.
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Random is like ladder fear. It sticks out and people think it should be changed. I think not; the tradeoff is fine.
Basically, random opponents give you a chance to practice fundamentals, like scouting and reacting to what the opponent is doing. If going 1 gate expand or gas/pool every once in a while is so terrible that you feel you're behind, good. You've probably won a game from behind before, so do it again and pretend you're better than your opponent just like in every other victory.
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On August 20 2012 12:29 FaiL_SaFe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:00 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same. Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat. If you play random you are no different from them If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him. Just one simple question, why?
If I was to roll ZvP and say 'hi, I'm zerg, please FFE', anyone who trusts me on the ladder is insane. I wish that wasn't the case, but they have no way of knowing I'm not trying to fool them and there are a lot of people who would try that.
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Just going to throw in my .02 and say that strong conventional play will outpower any random player we run into on the ladder... it isn't like MKP is playing random toss at my MMR, so it doesn't really matter to me. =/
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On August 20 2012 12:33 Ansinjunger wrote:
Random is like ladder fear. It sticks out and people think it should be changed. I think not; the tradeoff is fine.
Basically, random opponents give you a chance to practice fundamentals, like scouting and reacting to what the opponent is doing. If going 1 gate expand or gas/pool every once in a while is so terrible that you feel you're behind, good. You've probably won a game from behind before, so do it again and pretend you're better than your opponent just like in every other victory.
Playing against Random is good for nothing except practicing my blind 6 pool.
Just going to throw in my .02 and say that strong conventional play will outpower any random player we run into on the ladder... it isn't like MKP is playing random toss at my MMR, so it doesn't really matter to me. =/
True for the most part except even winning against a Random player is a hollow and meaningless victory, better to just instantly leave or do some blind all-in like a 6 pool and just end the pointless match as soon as possible unless you're the type of person who really cares about ladder points.
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On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random
There can only be one proper answer to the question of race.
"Scout it"
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On August 20 2012 12:38 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:33 Ansinjunger wrote:
Random is like ladder fear. It sticks out and people think it should be changed. I think not; the tradeoff is fine.
Basically, random opponents give you a chance to practice fundamentals, like scouting and reacting to what the opponent is doing. If going 1 gate expand or gas/pool every once in a while is so terrible that you feel you're behind, good. You've probably won a game from behind before, so do it again and pretend you're better than your opponent just like in every other victory. Playing against Random is good for nothing except practicing my blind 6 pool. Show nested quote +Just going to throw in my .02 and say that strong conventional play will outpower any random player we run into on the ladder... it isn't like MKP is playing random toss at my MMR, so it doesn't really matter to me. =/ True for the most part except even winning against a Random player is a hollow and meaningless victory, better to just instantly leave or do some blind all-in like a 6 pool and just end the pointless match as soon as possible unless you're the type of person who really cares about ladder points.
On the contrary, using it as practice for different builds and situations is exactly why it's worth playing out and blind cheesing is 'really caring about ladder points'.
Unfortunately, that's often annoying as hell to bother with.
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On August 20 2012 12:30 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:20 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 12:18 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 12:14 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. SC2 is a game of unfair, balanced advantages. Learn to deal with it. I'm just gonna paste my original quote because again, apparently picking random is SO advantageous that you will win lots of tournaments. Or at the very least rank high on ladder. Maybe not, but you'll get lots of portraits. + Show Spoiler +Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random. Also, lol @ proper game. You're really trying to use tourney winnings to make your point? I'm intellectually insulted you need me to explain why that is retarded. These people make SC2 their entire career, they spend all day playing this game, obviously when you're at that point you don't have the time to be learning 3 races when there is an infinite amount of practice to be putting into winning with just 1 race and in a tourney setting MMR means nothing unlike in ladder. Also yes, I put "proper" in quotations because technically there is no thing but what I mean is a game where neither player has an inherent advantage. It's just over-the-top evidence that implies that when you're at any relevant level of skill in SC2, random players will take very few to no games off of you. They're extremely rare in higher leagues because it's difficult to win consistently against much more consistent players. Not just pro players. You'd know that if you read any further. Please re-read the edited post of mine you quoted, I'd love to be humored by the response. I hope you realize the monumental irony in whining about random, while simultaneously boasting your own skill level. At that point you should probably realize your opinion is fairly irrelevant. I did read what you wrote, unlike most people in this thread I actually read things before I respond. Ok since you're still clearly missing the basic point I'm going to give you the simplistic version of it to grasp. Playing Random DOES NOT help you get to GM or likely even high Masters. Playing Random DOES help you in every specific individual match you play. Learning 3 races doesn't matter on ladder because of MMR. Learning 3 races does matter in tournaments because there is NO MMR. Got it? Good. Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:29 FaiL_SaFe wrote:On August 20 2012 12:00 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same. Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat. If you play random you are no different from them If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him. Just one simple question, why? Because something close to half the people who say what race they got are lying, from my experience.
1) That wasn't the part of your post I was referring to. I was asking about the first part. I don't play exceptionally greedy, I almost never cheese and I try my best to play as straight up as possible. Lumping all random players together is just absurd. I'm in Plat on the NA server. I'm fucking GARBAGE. The thing is it doesn't actually much matter what race I play because my general mechanics, multitasking and decision making are crap. Playing random gives me a chance to experience and practice every single matchup and get insight into all three races. If I ever, by some miracle managed to get into masters, I'd almost certainly settle down and pick a race. I also definitely wish that instead of waiting to spawn to find out what race you rolled the game simply told both my opponent and myself what I was playing as at the loading screen.
2) I'm not suggesting that everyone should take my word for it (although If you meet me on ladder I'm not going to lie about what race I spawned as). Of course they should check, but as people have pointed out it really only massively affects one matchup out of 9. Also, that statement about how about half of the people who tell you their race are lying about it absolutely fucking reeks of some combination of confirmation bias and a limited sample size. All that means is that in the minuscule subsection of bnet that you play in you may, or may not have encountered a large number of assholes. Hating random players unconditionally is like wanting to kill every New York Giants fan on the planet because some guy in a car with Giants plates cut you off on the highway. It's completely irrational.
3) Apollo plays random. Why do you hate Apollo so much? That's just mean.
4) I actually happen to like playing Random. I'm sure as hell not going to apologize for that fact and when I ladder I try my best to play as normally and fairly as possible. So don't fucking put me on or near the same level as people who hack.
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random has no place on the ladder or in a competitive setting; given an unlimited skill and knowledge ceiling the random player would always be at an advantage. It is true that it takes more commitment to play 3 races well instead of one but that does not excuse the disadvantage it puts the other player at.
If people want to mix it up that's great, but if random is to be part of the ladder the other player should be informed of the race that was randomed. Many people I've played will honestly share their race when they random (which in many ways speaks for the former argument) but it only takes a few assholes to discount the goodwill of many.
tl:dr, it should say what they randomed.
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The OP's argument makes no sense at all. "They choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me." When they choose to play terran, or protoss, or zerg, it all still affects you. You have to adapt your play to the matchup. Random is simply another matchup you have to adapt to. Basically the argument boils down to "I'm not comfortable in this matchup and so I'm gonna whine about it." The same way people complain about imbalance in other matchups. You can put a pylon on your natural on most maps and scout your opponent in time to decide forge or gateway. You can learn to go gateway openings against zerg. You can scout hatch first and simply go nexus or a slightly later low ground forge. Random is fine.
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Random is a 4th race. It's fun and suitable for ladder but not so much at tournaments. There are viable ways to play against random that will not leave you behind whatsoever. I do the same buidl PvZ that I do PvR(z) completely uninterrupted. You have to learn how to play against random in the same way you have to learn how to paly against other races. Everyone go home.
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You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.
Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
In team games I keep my race a secret but when I random on 1v1 ladder I always tell my opponent what race I am when they ask. I don't cheese unless I am really bored so it doesn't bother me to reveal my race.
Random player disadvantages:
Can't plan a build until the game starts
Need to learn more matchups, more builds, more everything
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On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.
Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).
But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features.
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On August 20 2012 13:08 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.
Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).
But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features.
Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied.
There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it.
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My policy for random is simple. I ask for race, and if they don't respond within 10 second, or give a non-response, I leave the game or proxy 2 rax. I don't care about my ladder ranking enough to play against random.
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On August 20 2012 13:10 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:08 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.
Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).
But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features. Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied. There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it.
...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages?
And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players.
Should probably read the posts I quote.
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Random players aren't going to be refined so my philosophy is scout early and play safe. Sure you lose out initially but you are a better more refined player.
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On August 20 2012 12:34 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:29 FaiL_SaFe wrote:On August 20 2012 12:00 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same. Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat. If you play random you are no different from them If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him. Just one simple question, why? If I was to roll ZvP and say 'hi, I'm zerg, please FFE', anyone who trusts me on the ladder is insane. I wish that wasn't the case, but they have no way of knowing I'm not trying to fool them and there are a lot of people who would try that.
This.
I played a ZvR once... I don't ask for race, but someone told me he was P... he was T lol
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I play random, personally I would prefer it says your race (as in Zerg/Terran/Toss) at the map/player load screen, so that it doesn't even appear as you played random.
Would lead to better games all around (imo).
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On August 20 2012 13:16 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:10 Dfgj wrote:On August 20 2012 13:08 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.
Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).
But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features. Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied. There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it. ...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages. And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players.Should probably read the posts I quote.
I'm high master P/master R. I do not like not being able to play standard games on my random account.
You do not get to play normal games in some circumstances when playing Random, a fact entirely caused by the lack of information of race: something that is always provided in other cases. This does not have any impact on things in-game, it does not change balance - it simply enables normal gameplay in a situation where it is impeded This is more than just the ZvP situation (and sure, I've gotten free wins from that at times), but also people being far less willing to play normal against someone picking Random.
A single glance through the thread displays the problems that leaving Random displayed as 'Random' causes in terms of how games play out. As I said, there's no reason for Random to have this difference, this comparative lack of information.
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On August 20 2012 04:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
You should practice gateway openings in PvZ to fix this problem.
Nony da man
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On August 20 2012 00:21 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:19 Vallros wrote:
I don't get why random players have search for matches using the random option. Just roll a dice between games and let it decide, instead of playing with an advantage that encourages coin-flip situations And I don't understand why players like you feel like playing Random encourages more coin-flip situations. Is the first minute or two THAT important to you that you feel completely pressured into all inning or playing ultra greedy once you find out what race I am? Just probe scout at 9, and play the game out standard from there.
Yeah sure us protoss players will probe scout at 9 and wait on pylon placement and give you a small econ lead at the beginning of the game because you cant roll a dice to choose you race. Then hope we placed a pylon in the right spot or get completely behind because you get that advantage of knowing right after teh game starts what race your facing and how greedy you can be.
If you spawn zerg against toss then its just "oh look speedling rush to deny natural because they have to go some suboptimal build and barely wall off or you 6 pool and its an auto BO win" You spawn terran "oh look free pylon during a gateway expand marine rush to take down the pylon and go back home laughing" You spawn as toss " oh look suboptimal gateway expand because im random lets just do some type of rush take out pylon and win because he has to scout early and lose econ and i know the suboptimal build vs random so he has no units after the pylon dies"
Jesus the only person almost everyone knows that actually isn't some guy making up excuses and being a dick and hiding his race when he plays random is Apollo. Otherwise the rest of you are just a bunch of jokes.(except those few posts i read about them wanting blizzard to show their race at the loading screen. good people you are :D) "oh i have to learn more matchups. Oh i have to learn more builds. Oh i get called a liar and a cheeser when people enter the game. Oh i want to test out a new build against something suboptimal just so i can say i won with it"
You stuck up randoms (except those proper ones with respect for playing straight up games) need ot get taht stick out of your ass and see if from our end. We leave and assume those things because the large percent of random's do all that cheese and lying garbage to get an edge. Most people go on ladder to get better and practice legit matchups and BO's and dont want to have to deal with the garbage that is facing opponents blindly and having suboptimal openers while you can open standard and just rush and win games.
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On August 20 2012 13:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:16 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 13:10 Dfgj wrote:On August 20 2012 13:08 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.
Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).
But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features. Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied. There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it. ...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages. And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players.Should probably read the posts I quote. I'm high master P/master R. I do not like not being able to play standard games on my random account. You do not get to play normal games in some circumstances when playing Random, a fact entirely caused by the lack of information of race: something that is always provided in other cases. This does not have any impact on things in-game, it does not change balance - it simply enables normal gameplay in a situation where it is impeded This is more than just the ZvP situation (and sure, I've gotten free wins from that at times), but also people being far less willing to play normal against someone picking Random. A single glance through the thread displays the problems that leaving Random displayed as 'Random' causes in terms of how games play out. As I said, there's no reason for Random to have this difference, this comparative lack of information.
What's your point? You play random and that is how the game pans out. I don't pick Zerg and expect to be successful at early aggression with any remote consistency at high levels. It's a component of the race, that owes absolutely nothing to your personal grievances. If it's such a big issue that you'd spend this much time posting about it, then I don't see why you can't better spend that time rolling a die between queues. The only difference at that point is portraits.
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Zerg is a race. Random is not. It's a tool to allow you to play all the races freely.
If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool.
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The problem with random is that the race is incredibly easy to use to screw over other players but it screws you over as well.
Why ? Because there are match ups and match ups. As a protoss i get why they are annoying but as a T you fucking roll over them... its not like the CC first expand has that much variation depending on match up anyway.
Same with Z, if said random player spawns as T or as Z he will likely get dominated ( with the mention that T can 2 rack ) and seeing as diamond + zerg are good against 1base cheese and poorly executed 2 base cheese even for P nowadays the same argument could be made for protoss. Hell, even vs P if they spawn as T they are generally screwed from the get go.
What im trying to say is that tho random might seem like a coin flip for many, it's a coin flip for them as well... and one that doesn't favor them at that, thus the amount of random slowly decreases as you move further on the ladder.
I do agree random is a problem, someone shouldn't get an advantage... especially if said advantage is bigger vs certain races, just cuz they play all 3 races, its there choice and only because they fell like having fun in a certain way it doesn't mean that it has to ruin the fun of other. The fact that random is allowed to hide there race its the same as a sniper being able to chose the option to play without a scope and get + x hp for doing that, it will not favor him in the end but it will annoy other people. However blizzard is known not to care about this sort of things and until a good chunk of random player will reach rating high enough so that i face them in more than 1 out of 50 games I will happily say "meh".
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As a zerg player, 9/10 times I will beat a random player in the late game unless they are just flat out a better player than myself. As protoss it must be annoying but after scouting i dont see why you cant go for a naniwa-esque gateway first expand. You might be slightly behind at the start, but unless its an experienced zerg player messing around playing random, you have an overwhelming advantage in late game experience.
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On August 20 2012 13:43 Dfgj wrote:
Zerg is a race. Random is not. It's a tool to allow you to play all the races freely.
If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool.
Random is a race. The "tool" that allows you to play all the races freely is the ability to choose a race before you queue. Neither the race or tool have any problems -- you simply think they were made for different functions that cater or should to what you want.
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Fuck them, even if they tell you their race, 90% of the time its some stupid all in that doesnt make sense--so even if you win, there is nothing learned. Fuck randoms.
Although there are a few randoms who are fun too play. But for the most part, fuck them.
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On August 20 2012 13:51 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:43 Dfgj wrote:
Zerg is a race. Random is not. It's a tool to allow you to play all the races freely.
If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool. Random is a race. The "tool" that allows you to play all the races freely is the ability to choose a race before you queue. Neither the race or tool have any problems -- you simply think they were made for different functions that cater or should to what you want.
You are incorrect. Random does not have its own units. It does not have its own gameplay changes. It is an entirely out-of-game tool to select one of the races. Once the game has begun, there is only Z, P, T. The only 'advantage' random has is in muddling the standard amount of information about the races within the game.
There is no reason for choosing to select Random having an impact on how a game plays out between the races.
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Random? no prob, just scout at 9..hell I even do it at 7 on 4 player maps..just send ur 6 probes at the start n pick 1 after it sends its first batch of mins...at the absolute latest, you will find what race/ and get a read on the random player by 16 supply...if you cant deal with it..tough luck bro.
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Honestly, I wish they would just tell you what race they rolled in the loading screen. It helps both players. When I played random, I hated having my fingers on 3 keys so I could be ready to immediately make a worker.
In my experience, most random players are cheesy. Yes, they need to know all 4 matchups for all 3 races, but the simple way past that is to cheese in nearly every matchup. I've never cheesed, though I have changed my builds if I saw my opponents (usually Zerg) being greedy, meaning hatch first back then on smaller 2 player maps and small 4 player maps with close spawns. I promptly punished them for it and moved on to the next game. Although I did plenty of 2 base all ins/pushes against Zerg, because that was the metagame at the time.
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On August 20 2012 13:54 honkeybeef wrote:
Fuck them, even if they tell you their race, 90% of the time its some stupid all in that doesnt make sense--so even if you win, there is nothing learned. Fuck randoms.
Although there are a few randoms who are fun too play. But for the most part, fuck them.
You really need to resolve your anger issues there champ..."Fuck them"? just because most of the time they all in u?
Good scouting can do wonders and usually gives u a free win.
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On August 20 2012 13:55 Apparatus wrote:
Random? no prob, just scout at 9..hell I even do it at 7 on 4 player maps..just send ur 6 probes at the start n pick 1 after it sends its first batch of mins...at the absolute latest, you will find what race/ and get a read on the random player by 16 supply...if you cant deal with it..tough luck bro.
But the fact is, this is STILL a build order disadvantage because you lose quite a bit of income early on compared to a normal build. Although you are more likely to choose the correct build, you are still behind. But at least you won't deal with a build order loss. It's not much different than going for a Banshee expand against a 15 Nexus when you could've gone for a 1 Rax expand with an attempt at an aggressive Bunker or a 14 CC.
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Random has been a part of the game for something like 14 years. And it's the weakest race by far (judging by tournament results of all level). Should be time for people to stop whining and start actually learning to play the game.
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One good thing about random players is that they are generally less stuck up and BM than everyone else, even if their way of winning games is underhanded in certain situations
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On August 20 2012 12:12 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it. The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional. You have literally no argument for your completely wrong statement and I can also promise you I play this game more and at a higher level than you.
Oh, you just want to rant and be mad instead of posting anything worth a damn. Gotcha. Looks like I might as well check out of this thread.
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If someone asks me what race I am, I make them choose red or black. If they get it right I tell them my race. In about 1000 games played at random I've been asked what race I am in lets say 200 games. I've only had to tell my race MAYBE 10 times.
It's black every time, but everyone guesses red. It's very interesting how this has worked out. I still don't know why basically no one chooses black.
Edit - And as for all this unfair rabble, I think you're crazy. There is an advantage in that I fast expand in every matchup, but if you scout and expand as well we're on even terms. Then there's a higher chance of the game going to mid/late game, where a non random player should be better at anyways.
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I 7pool or bling bust or do some other stupid shit vs randoms, having to play suboptimally by sending an early scout is something I have no plans of doing
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On August 20 2012 12:49 jdseemoreglass wrote:
The OP's argument makes no sense at all. "They choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me." When they choose to play terran, or protoss, or zerg, it all still affects you. You have to adapt your play to the matchup. Random is simply another matchup you have to adapt to. Basically the argument boils down to "I'm not comfortable in this matchup and so I'm gonna whine about it." The same way people complain about imbalance in other matchups. You can put a pylon on your natural on most maps and scout your opponent in time to decide forge or gateway. You can learn to go gateway openings against zerg. You can scout hatch first and simply go nexus or a slightly later low ground forge. Random is fine.
This is a really good sum up of how I feel on the matter also.
The way I see it, the majority of "anti random" arguments in this thread is just whining about another race in the same way they whine about any of the other match ups but they feel justified in their hatred because Random players are a minority.
It's just whining at the end of the day. There's nothing fundamentally different about playing against someone whose race you don't know about beforehand. It just forces safer openings and earlier scouting. If you can't do that then you are not a fundamentally sound player and you're just complaining rather than adapting. That's all there is to it.
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I used to random just to get the feel of each race and decide which was best for me. But i always used to tell the opponent my race. It is much better to play against an opponent who is ready and uses a practiced build order against a certain race than a opponent using a sub-par build that is safe.
But anyway, if u can play random, play random. I treat lit like a race by itself, where i play slightly more defensive and avoid FE unless im sure of what the opponent is doing.
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On August 20 2012 14:30 diddLY wrote:
If someone asks me what race I am, I make them choose red or black. If they get it right I tell them my race. In about 1000 games played at random I've been asked what race I am in lets say 200 games. I've only had to tell my race MAYBE 10 times.
It's black every time, but everyone guesses red. It's very interesting how this has worked out. I still don't know why basically no one chooses black.
Clearly, they haven't seen Passenger 57.
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It's pretty dumb in a game where you try to be truly competitive. It's not the end of the world or anything but it's silly. You should always know what race you are up against. Let there be a random button for those that can't decide, but let me know which race was selected on the loading screen. I don't play anymore though, so I don't really care.
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I have been playing random alot lately. I have found that people tend to BM me more when I beat them as random then when I main as zerg. Also, i get all ined A FUCK TON as a rand.
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Random player here, but I'm in a lower league and when I occasionally play I like to try a bit of everything rather than skill up in something specific.
And yeah randoms actually get all-ined as much as they all-in. It's a safer bet most of the time hehe. In lower leagues I don't get much BM that is unusual for the league.
And I sort of agree with the idea that the race should show at open. I only random so I don't choose my race because I like to play them all, not to get an advantage at the start.
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Random has no place on the ladder. The purpose of random is to have the game chose your race for you. Its not to give you a potentially game ending advantage.
Players DO NOT pick random because they want to fool their opponent. They pick because they don't want to chose their race. In no way should the other player be put at an disadvantage for it. Their race should always be revealed. Its bullshit thats not addressed because no one that plays this game competitivly plays random anyway
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Playing random is not much of an advantage. All those people whining about the random advantage should notice that no pros play random. Wanna know why? There's too much to learn to get to a highly competitive level. People who play random and want to be competitve should pick a race. People who play for fun can play random and do at least slightly better with the little advantage you get.
I played random for around a year and topped out in plat for a couple months. I picked a race and within 2 weeks moved up to diamond and am still improving. It's really hard to play random well. I don't know why people complain.
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I still hope that one day someone will be good enough to play random professionally. But it's HIGHLY unlikely
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On August 20 2012 15:09 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:
I have been playing random alot lately. I have found that people tend to BM me more when I beat them as random then when I main as zerg. Also, i get all ined A FUCK TON as a rand.
I see this as well. People expect it so much out of random so they do it themselves. But most arn't comfortable with it and I'm able to defend for a win.
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Random is there because it's been there since the dawn of time in almost any game. If it bugs you that you can't open ideally against a specific race, I suggest just trying to cheese and end the game quick and move on with your life. Or even just quit the game and queue up a new game. Unless ladder wins REALLY matter to you that much.
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There is an advantage i dont agree with I play protoss
Example
I would wall off my natural with my first pylon, to ffe but if hes random, i cant do that because if hes terran or protoss i could get run over for building my gateways down my small ramp. Just because a player has selected random doesnt mean he should get a in-game gimmic advantage. A player might be really good with one race then gets it with random and gets a free advantage, what then? A game mode should not affect builds in game.
I think alot of pros dont play random because you also have to say your race alot in tournaments so players can practice builds
Random selecting but tells race imo
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On August 20 2012 15:32 Luoson wrote:
There is an advantage i dont agree with I play protoss
Example
I would wall off my natural with my first pylon, to ffe but if hes random, i cant do that because if hes terran or protoss i could get run over for building my gateways down my small ramp. Just because a player has selected random doesnt mean he should get a in-game gimmic advantage. A player might be really good with one race then gets it with random and gets a free advantage, what then? A game mode should not affect builds in game.
I think alot of pros dont play random because you also have to say your race alot in tournaments so players can practice builds
Random selecting but tells race imo
OH NO YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW TO 1 GATE OR 3 GATE EXPAND!!!! HOW TERRIBLE!!!
You don't have to say your race in tournaments. The majority of tournaments accept random players. It's just not much of an advantage. You say a player might be really good with one race, well then what happens when he gets the other two? There isn't an advantage compared to how much extra time has to be put in to learn 3x the matchups...
Or, to all these people who think it's unbalanced: Try it. I dare you. You'll find yourself losing way more. It's not an advantage.
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Random should be hard to use, not gain an unneeded advantage. Selecting it means skills, not the ablity to do gimmic cheeses
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On August 20 2012 15:36 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 15:32 Luoson wrote:
There is an advantage i dont agree with I play protoss
Example
I would wall off my natural with my first pylon, to ffe but if hes random, i cant do that because if hes terran or protoss i could get run over for building my gateways down my small ramp. Just because a player has selected random doesnt mean he should get a in-game gimmic advantage. A player might be really good with one race then gets it with random and gets a free advantage, what then? A game mode should not affect builds in game.
I think alot of pros dont play random because you also have to say your race alot in tournaments so players can practice builds
Random selecting but tells race imo OH NO YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW TO 1 GATE OR 3 GATE EXPAND!!!! HOW TERRIBLE!!! You don't have to say your race in tournaments. The majority of tournaments accept random players. It's just not much of an advantage. You say a player might be really good with one race, well then what happens when he gets the other two? There isn't an advantage compared to how much extra time has to be put in to learn 3x the matchups... Or, to all these people who think it's unbalanced: Try it. I dare you. You'll find yourself losing way more. It's not an advantage.
Pretty much this. I hate it when people feel like FFE is the ONLY way to play PvZ. 3gate expand was a decent build back in the day, and it's still a pretty decent build. Most zergs nowadays are not as used to its timings compared to back then when that was the standard. Heaven forbit you remember two builds as opposed to the tons and tons of builds a Random player has to use. I bet most people's win ratio here is well above 50% against Randoms as well.
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That was just an example, Another one is you cant go a standard build if he 6 pools or proxy gateways u and your the last spot you scout on a 4 player map
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On August 20 2012 15:52 Luoson wrote:
That was just an example, Another one is you cant go a standard build if he 6 pools or proxy gateways u and your the last spot you scout on a 4 player map
If he 6 pools you on a 4 player map he's a dumbass because he also has to scout which reduces the strength of 6 pool massively, plus 4 player maps are usually larger. You should have more than enough time to hold off a 6pool especially if you went something normal like gate on top of your ramp at 12.
Edit: Also there's no random advantage there. The way to hold off any of those is basically the same -_-'' You're just saying cheese is impossible to hold off if you last scout on a 4 player map (which is untrue anyway)
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I want to play all three races because I like them all and I get 9 matchups instead of 3. The way I see it, I have 2 options to do so: Either I handpick and switch between the races or I play random. I'm a diamond level protoss and zerg, but platinum level (at best) terran. If I play 10 games protoss, 10 games zerg and then 10 games terran I usually go something like 7-3, 6-4, 2-8 because my MMR goes up first as I play toss & zerg and then plummets as I get destroyed as terran. So if I want my MMR to stay more stable I have to switch races every game anyway so It's easier to just keep it on random. I would love to hand pick my race if i could have a different MMR for every race, maybe even different ladder ranks.
Oh, and about randoms being cheesy and whatnot, I almost always play "straight up" macro games unless I see a really greedy build or a weakness I can take advantage of. Quite often I get blindly proxy gated/6 pooled/proxy raxed by someone who says "randoms always cheese so I cheese them first." Oh, and I tell my race when my opponent asks.
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Australia189 Posts
Would anyone agree with me that when you choose random it should shows the race of the random player at the load screen? Would solve the problem...
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On August 20 2012 15:18 boxman22 wrote:
Playing random is not much of an advantage. All those people whining about the random advantage should notice that no pros play random. Wanna know why? There's too much to learn to get to a highly competitive level. People who play random and want to be competitve should pick a race. People who play for fun can play random and do at least slightly better with the little advantage you get.
I played random for around a year and topped out in plat for a couple months. I picked a race and within 2 weeks moved up to diamond and am still improving. It's really hard to play random well. I don't know why people complain.
Implying everyone plays in grand masters. Seriously, random players might just like or dislike a given match-up, which is normal, but they use the fact that the opponent is in the dark to get a big lead/cheese. I am still loosing games when I open 15 hatch and the random player goes for an early pool, and the only early pools I had to face were frome rnds.
On August 20 2012 15:36 boxman22 wrote:
OH NO YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW TO 1 GATE OR 3 GATE EXPAND!!!! HOW TERRIBLE!!!
You don't have to say your race in tournaments. The majority of tournaments accept random players. It's just not much of an advantage. You say a player might be really good with one race, well then what happens when he gets the other two? There isn't an advantage compared to how much extra time has to be put in to learn 3x the matchups...
Or, to all these people who think it's unbalanced: Try it. I dare you. You'll find yourself losing way more. It's not an advantage.
So what? I do not think that I have to lose games just because my opponent is unemployed and plays the whole day. Have you ever played vs random as non random? try it. I dare you (lol). 75% of the games you get cheesed or all-inned, in the other, you spend your time looking for the cheese. And to thoose saying they tell their opponent which race they got, that is not helpfull, there are enough random "players" who lie about this.
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It wastes my time and I've grown to really hate randoms. I usually have to do a bad opening that will counter their cheese and render the game useless, which really makes no sense as to why random would cheese when they will almost certainly be scouted earlier than usual; otherwise, they play a fairly normal game in which they just don't play very well.
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On August 20 2012 16:06 Svenny90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 15:18 boxman22 wrote:
Playing random is not much of an advantage. All those people whining about the random advantage should notice that no pros play random. Wanna know why? There's too much to learn to get to a highly competitive level. People who play random and want to be competitve should pick a race. People who play for fun can play random and do at least slightly better with the little advantage you get.
I played random for around a year and topped out in plat for a couple months. I picked a race and within 2 weeks moved up to diamond and am still improving. It's really hard to play random well. I don't know why people complain. Implying everyone plays in grand masters. Seriously, random players might just like or dislike a given match-up, which is normal, but they use the fact that the opponent is in the dark to get a big lead/cheese. I am still loosing games when I open 15 hatch and the random player goes for an early pool, and the only early pools I had to face were frome rnds. Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 15:36 boxman22 wrote:
OH NO YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW TO 1 GATE OR 3 GATE EXPAND!!!! HOW TERRIBLE!!!
You don't have to say your race in tournaments. The majority of tournaments accept random players. It's just not much of an advantage. You say a player might be really good with one race, well then what happens when he gets the other two? There isn't an advantage compared to how much extra time has to be put in to learn 3x the matchups...
Or, to all these people who think it's unbalanced: Try it. I dare you. You'll find yourself losing way more. It's not an advantage. So what? I do not think that I have to lose games just because my opponent is unemployed and plays the whole day. Have you ever played vs random as non random? try it. I dare you (lol). 75% of the games you get cheesed or all-inned, in the other, you spend your time looking for the cheese. And to thoose saying they tell their opponent which race they got, that is not helpfull, there are enough random "players" who lie about this.
If you actually read my posts you quoted, I specifically said I did pick a race. I play toss so I face the "horrendous" PvRZ where you have to GATE EXPAND O.O And to those who say only randoms all-in, LOOOOL. Such bullshit. At best it's a little more common from randoms, but not even that much more likely.
Edit: Also if you face so many early pools, just do a slightly more defensive build and crush them in a macro game. Supposedly all they can do is cheese. And if you only know one build, then there's another problem eh?
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If blizzard does a unraked ladder like they have promised, maybe its the right place to be a random?
People are hating random so much, ok you can say them are childish, but its a "culture" factor growing..
like 2v2 from broodwar experience, the ideas are changing..
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On August 20 2012 16:06 nicknack wrote:
Would anyone agree with me that when you choose random it should shows the race of the random player at the load screen? Would solve the problem...
I would be fine with this. (As a random player).
On August 20 2012 16:06 Svenny90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 15:36 boxman22 wrote:
OH NO YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HOW TO 1 GATE OR 3 GATE EXPAND!!!! HOW TERRIBLE!!!
You don't have to say your race in tournaments. The majority of tournaments accept random players. It's just not much of an advantage. You say a player might be really good with one race, well then what happens when he gets the other two? There isn't an advantage compared to how much extra time has to be put in to learn 3x the matchups...
Or, to all these people who think it's unbalanced: Try it. I dare you. You'll find yourself losing way more. It's not an advantage. So what? I do not think that I have to lose games just because my opponent is unemployed and plays the whole day.
lol, what?
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On August 20 2012 15:55 boxman22 wrote:
If he 6 pools you on a 4 player map he's a dumbass because he also has to scout which reduces the strength of 6 pool massively, plus 4 player maps are usually larger.
You're wrong. 6 pool is actually stronger on 4 player maps, zerg knows in time which spawn you are even if he scouts after he has enough minerals for 6 first lings and there's possibility protoss scouts wrong direction first and doesn't see it coming. Another reason why random race and random spawns on map are bad.
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On August 20 2012 16:18 Ogww wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 15:55 boxman22 wrote:
If he 6 pools you on a 4 player map he's a dumbass because he also has to scout which reduces the strength of 6 pool massively, plus 4 player maps are usually larger. You're wrong. 6 pool is actually stronger on 4 player maps, zerg knows in time which spawn you are even if he scouts after he has enough minerals for 6 first lings and there's possibility protoss scouts wrong direction first and doesn't see it coming. Another reason why random race and random spawns on map are bad.
If you scout after pylon and built pylon and gate on top of ramp, you should scout before the lings can reach your base no matter what and be able to wall off.
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On August 20 2012 16:21 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:18 Ogww wrote:On August 20 2012 15:55 boxman22 wrote:
If he 6 pools you on a 4 player map he's a dumbass because he also has to scout which reduces the strength of 6 pool massively, plus 4 player maps are usually larger. You're wrong. 6 pool is actually stronger on 4 player maps, zerg knows in time which spawn you are even if he scouts after he has enough minerals for 6 first lings and there's possibility protoss scouts wrong direction first and doesn't see it coming. Another reason why random race and random spawns on map are bad. If you scout after pylon and built pylon and gate on top of ramp, you should scout before the lings can reach your base no matter what and be able to wall off.
I don't think that's the case on Taldarim unless you doublescout, but I might be wrong as I dont play zerg nor protoss anymore.
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On August 20 2012 16:06 nicknack wrote:
Would anyone agree with me that when you choose random it should shows the race of the random player at the load screen? Would solve the problem...
There is no problem. There are two kinds of people responding here who don't play random: those who've simply found a way to adapt and play well against random players, and those who refuse to learn/figure out how to play against them and instead just whine about it.
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On August 20 2012 16:35 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:06 nicknack wrote:
Would anyone agree with me that when you choose random it should shows the race of the random player at the load screen? Would solve the problem... There is no problem. There are two kinds of people responding here who don't play random: those who've simply found a way to adapt and play well against random players, and those who refuse to learn/figure out how to play against them and instead just whine about it.
Also there's two kinds of people playing random; those who want to play every race, and those who want to play every race with an information advantage.
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On August 20 2012 16:34 Ogww wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:21 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:18 Ogww wrote:On August 20 2012 15:55 boxman22 wrote:
If he 6 pools you on a 4 player map he's a dumbass because he also has to scout which reduces the strength of 6 pool massively, plus 4 player maps are usually larger. You're wrong. 6 pool is actually stronger on 4 player maps, zerg knows in time which spawn you are even if he scouts after he has enough minerals for 6 first lings and there's possibility protoss scouts wrong direction first and doesn't see it coming. Another reason why random race and random spawns on map are bad. If you scout after pylon and built pylon and gate on top of ramp, you should scout before the lings can reach your base no matter what and be able to wall off. I don't think that's the case on Taldarim unless you doublescout, but I might be wrong as I dont play zerg nor protoss anymore.
Well I hate taldarim anyway and have it banned. What toss would ever want to do 4gate wars? It's such a terrible map for pvp. I don't even know if it's still in the ladder pool because I just haven't bothered with it in so long -_-
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It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices.
EDIT: And if your argument is "Random should get an advantage because it's harder to play", then my counter-argument is that Blizzard should allow us filter away random games. If they can pick to have an advantage, I should be able to pick so I'm not matched against players using that advantage.
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On August 20 2012 16:37 Ogww wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:35 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 16:06 nicknack wrote:
Would anyone agree with me that when you choose random it should shows the race of the random player at the load screen? Would solve the problem... There is no problem. There are two kinds of people responding here who don't play random: those who've simply found a way to adapt and play well against random players, and those who refuse to learn/figure out how to play against them and instead just whine about it. Also there's two kinds of people playing random; those who want to play every race, and those who want to play every race with an information advantage.
Again if you think the information advantage is sooo large, try and play random. See how it works out for you.
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On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices.
I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices.
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On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices.
There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening.
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On August 20 2012 16:38 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:37 Ogww wrote:On August 20 2012 16:35 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 16:06 nicknack wrote:
Would anyone agree with me that when you choose random it should shows the race of the random player at the load screen? Would solve the problem... There is no problem. There are two kinds of people responding here who don't play random: those who've simply found a way to adapt and play well against random players, and those who refuse to learn/figure out how to play against them and instead just whine about it. Also there's two kinds of people playing random; those who want to play every race, and those who want to play every race with an information advantage. Again if you think the information advantage is sooo large, try and play random. See how it works out for you.
It's not that large, it's retarded design.
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On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening.
Give me one example of a game you couldn't learn from because you had to do a shitty opening. Random has next to no advantage at all. The only one where MAAAYBE they have an advantage is ZvP, but gate expands aren't as bad as everyone thinks.
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On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening.
There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players.
Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage.
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I can see the argument against Random for ladder purposes. However, that sort of goes out the window when you're in a tournament setting. As previously mentioned, a majority of tournaments do not prohibit the choice of Random for your race. When faced with this, what are you really going to do? Ask your opponent for his or her race? The goal, now, is to win the game by whatever methods you can employ.
If I can take advantage of an information advantage in a tournament setting, I'm definitely going to do it.
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Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups, duh. What about the random players who regularly/always cheese on ladder, hoping that the unknown factor will help them to get an easy win? Pathetic. I've lost games to such "strategic masterminds", i just smile and queue the next game.
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you can switch to random too.
I am master in random on NA/ grandmaster in terran on SEA.
as a matter of fact, FFE gives you an unfair advantage when against zerg, but when you encounter a random player in ladder, you would need to consider what to do because race info is not clear.
you need to wall off against early zergling run-by, but if you do so it will give you a disadvantage in a PvP etc etc.
Anyway, you can try random, you will feel the pain when terran is picked.
Also, random players accomplish least in all the tournaments.
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Dat QQ thread... Random is so OP. Random shouldn't be able to play in tournament. Why can't I see the race of my random opponent. I can't FFE. Random people cheese more. Life is so unfair.
Everyone should just remember that there are four races, and the game was designed so that one of the four would be the strongest.
You play the weakest.
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan.
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On August 20 2012 16:56 VyingsP wrote:
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan.
On August 20 2012 16:54 Psyclon wrote:
Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups
Seriously it would be so cool if there were someone good enough to play random at a professional level
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On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage.
No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant.
Point is, they get an advatange, which:
A) They don't deserve.
B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game.
Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
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Australia189 Posts
On August 20 2012 16:59 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:56 VyingsP wrote:
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan. Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:54 Psyclon wrote:
Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups Seriously it would be so cool if there were someone good enough to play random at a professional level
Didn't GuineaPig play random in gsl team league all the time.
If the load screen shows both races, should be standard, any advantage of not knowing the race goes away.
When I play random I would love to know the race before hand even if its only a few seconds, have my build ready, my scout paterns, know what to look for cheese wise and ovi placements if zerg, I know its only a new seconds but I think it would be great.
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On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
Your post reminds me of a match, I believe it was a TvZ but I can't recall who played in it, and the Terran ultimately managed to get a draw by lifting his buildings. There were people who reacted like it was a scandal, some kind of game abuse, an unfair mechanic, a bad design...
No, there a simply people who play this game to win. You think you know why people play random, and according to you, it is not in order to win the game. Good for you. Now, people who actually play random might have a slightly different opinion.
Seriously, this thread has gone from "I hate random and I would love to know if I am the only one" into "I am terrible at dealing with cheese even though I know it is coming". Should be closed imho.
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On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
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I don't have a problem with random players. All that happens is that I have to send out a drone scout earlier so I can figure out whether I should hatch first or pool first. The disadvantage they get is that they can't always have their strongest race. I don't need to know what race they are before the game starts.
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On August 20 2012 17:18 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
There's examples in the OP, did you forget to read it? Obviously, it doesn't stop at that. Point being that most players, even on gold level, are good enough where they have specific builds for each matchup. As a zerg, it could be hatch first vs terran, 14pool16hatch vs toss and 14gas/14pool vs zerg. Which one do you pick vs a random? Well, you'll pick 14gas/14pool unless you want to risk getting countered, and now you suddenly threw off your game vs terran/protoss. Doesn't mean you'll lose, just means "I'll never play like this vs a real terran or protoss, so this was a waste of time". Especially since the odds of you meeting a random player in a tournament setting is so low.
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On August 20 2012 17:17 VyingsP wrote:
Seriously, this thread has gone from "I hate random and I would love to know if I am the only one" into "I am terrible at dealing with cheese even though I know it is coming". Should be closed imho.
Then you're paying attention to the wrong posts.
When I play random, I do not want to be forced to play 2010 ZvP instead of getting to try newer builds. I do not want to get cheesed over and over by people who hate playing against Random, not because I lose, but because I don't get to play out standard games, when getting to play out a 'full' game as the other races is the whole reason I play Random. And these exact arguments go the other way from the vR side, because a matchup with a Random player, lacking in information, is far more likely to be cheese from someone due to that fact.
And all of that is unnecessary.
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On August 20 2012 17:27 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:18 boxman22 wrote:
You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
There's examples in the OP, did you forget to read it? Obviously, it doesn't stop at that. Point being that most players, even on gold level, are good enough where they have specific builds for each matchup. As a zerg, it could be hatch first vs terran, 14pool16hatch vs toss and 14gas/14pool vs zerg. Which one do you pick vs a random? Well, you'll pick 14gas/14pool unless you want to risk getting countered, and now you suddenly threw off your game vs terran/protoss. Doesn't mean you'll lose, just means "I'll never play like this vs a real terran or protoss, so this was a waste of time". Especially since the odds of you meeting a random player in a tournament setting is so low.
14 pool 16 hatch works vs all 3 races and doesn't put you particularly behind in any. 14 gas 14 pool is generally a really aggressive build vs zerg, if you can't do a defensive one then that's your own problem. If you combine that with a 9/10/11/12 scout you should be able to find an early pool or proxy rax/gates before your hatch finishes. From then on out you're playing a slightly defensive game against someone who plays that matchup 1/3 of the time you do. If you can't win, then your problem is not vs random but just your play itself.
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On August 19 2012 21:53 Capped wrote:
Random players i experience are just cheesey. I just 4 gate them as protoss nowadays, as it works for all 3 races and crushes whatever shit they're trying to pull.
I played terran as plat and protoss atm as silver / gold and just experience cheese.
The way to get around random players is to just to standard builds that work as openers against all 3 races. For protoss something like a 1 gate FE or 4 gate works well. You want to be able to defend against cheesey crap and probably send out a scout earlier
Chances are random players are either cheesers, or worse with that race and matchup then you are. You have the advantage.
many have this.. or atleast had this.. a while ago i was high diamond as a random.. never told my race, but i didnt cheese either.
instead i faced a myriad of cheese/ 4gates from protoss players
it got to the point where i expected 4 gates and simply countered it for easy wins
and for those who "demand" that randoms should tell their race at the start... grow some balls... in most cases you would win late game anyways.. that or you need more training
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If they play as random, they are most likely choosing it to cheese, from personal experience. You have no idea whats coming from any of the three races, so you're extremely limited in what you can do build wise.
Some people just choose random because they enjoy all three races. That's legit.
Therefore... I think it would be best if random showed your race on the load screen. It would be fairer for both players, plus those who actually want to play a random race still can, they lose nothing.
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On August 20 2012 17:34 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:27 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:18 boxman22 wrote:
You still haven't given me a "shitty opening" that you "couldn't learn from". Give me one example.
There's examples in the OP, did you forget to read it? Obviously, it doesn't stop at that. Point being that most players, even on gold level, are good enough where they have specific builds for each matchup. As a zerg, it could be hatch first vs terran, 14pool16hatch vs toss and 14gas/14pool vs zerg. Which one do you pick vs a random? Well, you'll pick 14gas/14pool unless you want to risk getting countered, and now you suddenly threw off your game vs terran/protoss. Doesn't mean you'll lose, just means "I'll never play like this vs a real terran or protoss, so this was a waste of time". Especially since the odds of you meeting a random player in a tournament setting is so low. 14 pool 16 hatch works vs all 3 races and doesn't put you particularly behind in any. 14 gas 14 pool is generally a really aggressive build vs zerg, if you can't do a defensive one then that's your own problem. If you combine that with a 9/10/11/12 scout you should be able to find an early pool or proxy rax/gates before your hatch finishes. From then on out you're playing a slightly defensive game against someone who plays that matchup 1/3 of the time you do. If you can't win, then your problem is not vs random but just your play itself.
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy. In the case of protoss, it doesn't matter how fast you scout, there's no way you can scout your opponent fast enough to put down an FFE pylon unless you send it immediately as the game starts and find your opponent on your first try.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents?
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If they play as random, they are most likely choosing it to cheese, from personal experience. You have no idea whats coming from any of the three races, so you're extremely limited in what you can do build wise.
That is exactly why I think playing against random right now is no fun at all
Some people just choose random because they enjoy all three races. That's legit.
Therefore... I think it would be best if random showed your race on the load screen. It would be fairer for both players, plus those who actually want to play a random race still can, they lose nothing.
They would actually get to learn the matchups the way they are played instead of some twisted version of it with an opening that is somewhat safe to 100 different cheeses.
And yet many of the random players in this thread spit fire against this idea.
Now guess what sort of random players those are.
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On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents?
Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect.
And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game.
The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone.
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lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time.
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On August 20 2012 17:44 rEalGuapo wrote:
And yet many of the random players in this thread spit fire against this idea.
Now guess what sort of random players those are.
When I played random I loved messing with peoples heads. My favorite example is in TvP. Get gas and make a reactor on your barracks. The toss will immediately get really defensive and think 1-1-1 or 2/3 rax pressure/all-in. After you chase the scout and get 50 gas, pull SCVs from gas and get 2 CCs. Laugh when the toss tries to immortal all-in when they realize they're far behind or tries to play a macro game with fewer probes than you have scvs.
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On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone.
So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race.
Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well.
Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening.
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Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect.
To work on mechanics you need to know what to in the game and when to do it in advance, only that way you can work on mechanics without over-thinking strategy-wise and taking up too much brain capacity for that.
So I have to 9 Scout and from there improvise, making it a wasted game if I want to improve, in my eyes.
And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game.
Random players make up less than 5%, that is just annoying to deal with since it can differ a lot how often you meet them.
Sometimes I meet 4-5 a day, now I haven't played against random for at least 100 games.
The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone
The information advantage is probably bigger than you think since Starcraft is a game of information.
Learning how to deal with random will never be a goal of mine since I don't play against random often enough to influence my position in ladder.
Playing against 3 Races is enough for me and I don't see the harm in knowing the race I am up against, since it does make almost no difference for you (as you said) but it makes the match 100 times more fun for me.
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On August 20 2012 17:49 Gamegene wrote:
lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time.
As a random player, I'm perfectly fine playing against other random players.
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On August 20 2012 17:55 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:49 Gamegene wrote:
lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time. As a random player, I'm perfectly fine playing against other random players.
I'm sure a maphacker isn't mad if he plays against another maphacker, still it is no fun for the rest of us.
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3 times out 4 randoms attempt to cheese me, badly. Like, they can't even execute the cheese properly.
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On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:
Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening.
If you're a pro, then yes it makes perfect sense to leave vs randoms. There are no randoms good enough to be professional. The pros are playing for money and need to get better against only the races they play against. Are you anywhere near pro? I highly doubt it, therefore play against random, have some fun with it. If you crush random so hard, then why are you complaining so much? Take the free win whenever you play them (~8% globally)
May I ask what league you're in?
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On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong.
A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning.
B) I don't find playing against random "more boring". If anything, it's more challenging. Don't make generalities of your own tastes.
Why not consider random like a 4th race against which you have to have specific builds too (probably safe builds) ? Also, I think if you're below Master/GrandMaster and you think you're loosing to random because of their advantage at the start, you're just wrong.
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People that whine about random, probably are just able to make just one build for each race and they don't scout.
I have no idea how a good player, that knows several builds, is used to scout, can adapt to many playstyles can complain about random.
And that is all about late scout, 'cos it send your probe/drone/scv and 9 supply it's just super standard game, 'cos you will be able to make any opening at the proper time.
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On August 20 2012 17:54 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. To work on mechanics you need to know what to in the game and when to do it in advance, only that way you can work on mechanics without over-thinking strategy-wise and taking up too much brain capacity for that. So I have to 9 Scout and from there improvise, making it a wasted game if I want to improve, in my eyes.
Since when is learning to improvise not a skill in SC2. The people who hate randoms are all the people who want sc2 to be a game of who can do the 1 build I learned better than the 1 build you learned.
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On August 20 2012 17:57 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:55 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 17:49 Gamegene wrote:
lol. let's be honest and state that no one enjoys playing random players.
i just had to endure playing a random player two times (6 pool and proxy 2 gate). it was a waste of time. As a random player, I'm perfectly fine playing against other random players. I'm sure a maphacker isn't mad if he plays against another maphacker, still it is no fun for the rest of us.
When I pick a race, I still have no problem playing against random. If you can't figure out a way to deal with it, then that's your own problem.
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On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems.
You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho.
I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
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On August 20 2012 17:59 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:
Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. If you're a pro, then yes it makes perfect sense to leave vs randoms. There are no randoms good enough to be professional. The pros are playing for money and need to get better against only the races they play against. Are you anywhere near pro? I highly doubt it, therefore play against random, have some fun with it. If you crush random so hard, then why are you complaining so much? Take the free win whenever you play them (~8% globally) May I ask what league you're in?
Sure, I'm high platinum. I'm certainly not a pro, and I don't leave against randoms, I'm just saying, randoms make up a very small percentage and you have to play differently against them. Even if it's a freewin, that doesn't make the game more rewarding. If you play on the ladder to get better, you will have the same problem as a pro, even though it certainly doesn't have the same impact.
Problem is, you seem to think it's fun to play against randoms, because it's different. I, and tons of other people, think it's boring for that very reason. If your random opponent plays seriously and just wants a random race, he wouldn't mind you knowing his race (which is why a lot of randoms tell their race immediately), so not having it shown in the loading screen makes no difference. Vs a player who desperately doesn't want you to know his race, it's in 90% of the cases because he somehow wants to abuse this advantage, which makes it boring for that reason. It's very very rare to run into a player who does not let you know his race, yet plays for the late-game, and those are the only games where your situation actually happens and random acts as a "fourth race"... but again, it's just you playing a normal matchup with a suboptimal opening.
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If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
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I started playing random because of the way starcraft changed. I used to be a Mech player in BW. I love my mech. Oh how much I loved it. I was only C- so I got crused a billion times by my stupidly executed pushes.
But man, that feeling when your hardpush finally reaches his base and his army stumbles into your defense... An orgasm falls short to that. Of course it was hard, because to properly execute you had to think of so many things. Still, my heart was in it.
That being said, with sc2 being all about mobility with all races I have just not found my niche. They all feel so much the same. Sure you have Queens for zerg and the necessity to fland, Forcefields for toss and the kinda Ball-Style and Mules as Terran and so A-moving Stimtrain. But in the end they are not all that different.
But feel free to ask my race politely on ladder and I will always ask. Also, I don't cheese regularly. Every 1 in 20-30 games maybe, but not more.
Oh and just in general, when you play a random dude, stop flaming what an imba shit he is for playing the race he does, because he did not pick it. Think before you flame :D
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I'm a random player myself and tell my race, if I don't get bmed at the start (A lot of people tend to just insult me at the beginning of a game).
I like playing longer games and just cheese in about 1 game of 30 or so.
I even stopped to mix in a 6pool here and there, which I did when I was playing only zerg.
Do I feel like there is an advantage to random players?
Not really, you just have to scout them with your workers.
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Best part about being a random player: winning a game and having people say stuff like "you zerg players are all skilless scum"
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On August 20 2012 18:19 Prugelhugel wrote:
Do I feel like there is an advantage to random players?
Not really, you just have to scout them with your workers.
How is that not an advantage, especially in situations like toss vs zerg where you need to make a decision before you can scout?
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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason.
Name them please
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Say ffe is the optimal build versus zerg. How early does toss have to scout to be able to still ffe? Unless you can make ffe viable in every matchup, then this has to be an advantage for you, unless you want to make a good argument for why players are making a mistake by not scouting this early versus non random opponents. When you choose random, why wouldn't you scout with, say, your first worker? I would say thank god people that don't see the advantage aren't working on balancing this game, but then again, with the lack of a fix... maybe they are. Again, random is too rare the higher you go, so I don't intend on facing it that often, but it's just so silly to me that they won't make it fair.
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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:
Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively.
Just some figures:
Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
GSL, MLG, NASL, IPL all allow random I know that for sure. I haven't bothered to check ESL, Dreamhack and HSC but they probably do too...
Edit: Also from experience I know playhem and z33k dailies allow random as well
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On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense.
"Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time."
-> Marine
provide an advantage? check!
easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!)
Ok, stop wasting time.
It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it.
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On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it.
Wow, you must be very proud to make such an superb analogy.
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On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it.
Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game.
Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre.
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On August 20 2012 18:38 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it. Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game. Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre.
Of course Random has an information advantage, it's the design of the race! It's not enough though since it's the weakest race by far.
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On August 20 2012 18:44 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:38 playa wrote:On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it. Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game. Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre. Of course Random has an information advantage, it's the design of the race! It's not enough though since it's the weakest race by far.
So, say zvt were imbalanced (not saying it is or isn't), but I'm now at a disadvantage because I just randomed zerg? So, I would have an inherent information advantage + mu advantage, but since I picked random, I'm weak. I think random is weak because no one freaking plays random compared to the other races. If only 10k people in the world played zerg, zerg would be the "worst" race. When you factor in that playing random probably does require a lot more games, combined with only casual players playing random (players that don't play enough to get good), then yeah that's why you don't see random high up.
Naturally, one might ask then, why don't more players play random in tournaments. Whether based in principle or not, even most players that random on ladder end up with matchups that are distinctively better than others, thus think picking one mu will outweigh any possible advantage of picking random in a tournament. Thus, it's probably not worth pursuing.
But, until picking random causes your units to have like 10% less HP, it's not the race that is weak... it's you... ugh. Unless random truly has you spawn as some fourth race that can't otherwise be chosen.
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Why when you play you need to learn something? I play random just to have fun, to force players all-in me, to get awesome BM. I can understand it's a different type of fun, but i think i'm not alone there... if you don't like playing against Random, you can always leave (i mean it), because percent of games against random is soooo minor it will not affect your MMR at all.
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Wow, PartinG is playing a PVZ and building a pylon INSIDE HIS MAIN. He's clearly guaranteed to lose now with such a massive disadvantage.
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I play random and I have to say I kinda agree with the original poster, when I get a RvR and I end up in a PvZ, its basically auto loss if my opponent plays correctly. Other than that it definitely narrows down the builds I can use but doesn't really effect the outcome. I announce my race when I play random, usually (sometimes I forget). However I couldn't care less about ladder points, I play only for fun and you can't play proper games otherwise. I really wish random displayed your race in the loading screen - it would let me get ready to build the correct worker and lets my opponent know my race.
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I was playing at like 3:am, a time where the player pool is obviously smaller. I got matched up against a random player 7 times in a row. I insta left every time, on principle and that it's pointless practice. If you're playing against random, your mmr is probably too low and you do simply need to get better, as hardly anyone plays random. So, there are always bigger things to focus on. That said, what probably tilted me the most as a beginning player was that 99% of the time it seemed, I would always be slightly favored against random opponents. Just that irony, as a toss player, where all your builds vary vastly depending on the race would piss me off. If I can't tell what race the guy is without basically donating a bunch of minerals to him, don't make me favored unless the guy is playing blind folded. Can I at least ask for that.
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Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Personally I'm randoming atm, telling my opponent my race at the start of the game so I get real games. Sadly some of them seriously don't believe me and ruin their experience and my own as well T.T
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It has been mentioned on this thread before , but I would love it if blizzard display's the random race during the loading screen , this way the random player gets to play whatever race he gets and the opposition isn't at a disadvantage early on.
example
Player Y
Random (zerg)
Edit : the spaces didn't display like I wanted
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On August 20 2012 19:51 Lorch wrote:
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Personally I'm randoming atm, telling my opponent my race at the start of the game so I get real games. Sadly some of them seriously don't believe me and ruin their experience and my own as well T.T
Play once against a "Zerg" and open FFE to get 4Gated. You will never trust a Random player again.
Which is exactly the problem with not showing the race during loading screen. It would just create better matches.
On August 20 2012 19:56 Tchado wrote:
It has been mentioned on this thread before , but I would love it if blizzard display's the random race during the loading screen , this way the random player gets to play whatever race he gets and the opposition isn't at a disadvantage early on.
example
Player Y
Random (zerg)
Edit : the spaces didn't display like I wanted
I'd rather not have it saying "Random" since it would probably affect the game.
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Play once against a "Zerg" and open FFE to get 4Gated. You will never trust a Random player
My favourite was the guy I played against who spent the first two minutes of the map complaining about how he'd rolled Zerg and had been getting it all day. Scouted him last and he was Terran. Promptly hit with a full-on Marine/SCV all-in.
Never trust a random. Proxy 2-gate all of them. Gets the game out of the way so can just move on. Works a lot of the time as well.
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On August 20 2012 19:51 Lorch wrote:
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with terran if the fucking game would just show me what's behind his wall in main.
Random race is part of this game and it's the hardest one.
I really would love to see great random pro player in torunament doing well. That would give so much more adrenaline.
About the ladder. Random is just another race so they have also about 50% winrate. That is, you have about 50% to win. How is this not balanced?
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I'm loving the stories about people saying they've rolled X when they actually rolled Y, just to throw their opponents off
Shows how lame some of the people playing random are.
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On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening.
Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race.
What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it.
Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are?
BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random?
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On August 20 2012 18:38 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:30 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 18:09 playa wrote:
If you're not playing random to gain an advantage, then you're saying you don't care what race you play. If you're not trying to gain an advantage, then I don't see why you can't choose random and have it pick your race on the spot and show it (to you and your opponent). Now, if you're playing random for an advantage and this game is supposed to strive for balance, then it makes next to no sense to allow an inherent advantage to be had when it's the easiest thing to balance: show both races. It really makes balance whining seem futile when obvious advantages are overlooked for w/e reasons. It seems hypocritical to me.
Blizzard has made it very clear that the question isn't whether something is imbalanced, but it's whether something meets their magical 55% in favor of one race imbalance. The question "can we easily make this game more balanced even if we don't think our magical number of having to give a shit has been met?" doesn't seem to be very important. Or, simply, the answer is why give a shit?
It's the principle more than the advantage that bothers me. I usually just leave versus random, depending on mood. Since there is an advantage for them, if you scout them on your first try and you're not bo fucked, you pretty much are going to win (inflated mmr). If it's pvz and you didn't take a bad 33% gamble on ffe, then you should prob lose. It's just bad practice, either way. And, until players are actually using random in tournaments, it's not really worth the practice. And, if they were, more prominent people might bitch about it and blizzard might have to magically start giving a shit.
I don't think playing random is that much of a disadvantage in that you have to be able to play all the races. If you have played both sides of a mu, then you will know your understanding of the matchup is pretty much better than anyone that doesn't play both sides of it. Call me crazy, but it's a pretty big advantage that should negate the disadvantages that come with having to practice every mu.
Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time.
You make no sense. "Keep it simple. Does something provide an advantage. Yes. Can it easily be fixed. Yes. Ok, stop wasting time." -> Marine provide an advantage? check! easily fixed? check! (just hafta remove them!) Ok, stop wasting time. It's your problem if you do not want to play the game, let random players, actually playing the game, out of it. Are you seriously going to make that parallel? Tell me why you think random doesn't provide an advantage or stfu. If you think tvz is imbalanced then it's your problem. Let the zerg players that enjoy their advantage take your points or find another game. Believe it or not, this game wasn't made by god. It was probably made by fallible people that couldn't even see it becoming the esport that it has become. Things aren't set in stone (shouldn't be at least). The question for blizzard isn't whether it's unfair. It's whether it's 55% unfair. If you don't see this as an advantage then you might be blind. If you can't answer the question of who has an advantage when one person knows their opponent's race and the other player doesn't know theirs, then maybe you should try playing another genre.
You really stepped into exactly his point: if you think PvR is imbalanced, then it's your problem.
Nobody's claiming that there isn't an advantage. We're saying that the advantage is part of the game. Just like regular race balance. Marines are a very good, very cost effective unit. They give Terrans an advantage. That doesn't mean that it's imbalanced, merely something you can use.
You can win vs. Random. You just have to stop playing the matchup like it's one of the other three races. If you treat it as a proper race, distinct from the rest, then you can develop builds that work well against the three races until you find out what they really have.
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On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random?
Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it.
If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!!
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On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zergs, it's identical to me playing a zerg, I don't need to change everything. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally
Then it's not identical to you playing Zerg, is it?
If you have to do something differently vX then you do vY, then it's a different matchup.
On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:
so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it.
Whether it is an unsafe opening is up you you and your skills. Whether it is unsatisfying is up to your opinion. And since the opening dictates the pace of the game, it will be quite different from a regular match.
Your problem is that you consider this to be negative. That one matchup being different from another is a bad thing. That's your right, but that doesn't mean you get to change the rules of the game.
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On August 20 2012 20:43 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zergs, it's identical to me playing a zerg, I don't need to change everything. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally Then it's not identical to you playing Zerg, is it? If you have to do something differently vX then you do vY, then it's a different matchup. Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:
so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it.
Whether it is an unsafe opening is up you you and your skills. Whether it is unsatisfying is up to your opinion. And since the opening dictates the pace of the game, it will be quite different from a regular match.
I hope you're realizing that you're more or less saying "A ZvT matchup is a COMPLETELY different matchup if the Z did a non-hatch first opening", because that's exactly what Random is. It's a normal run in the mill matchup, only that you don't know which opening to do. Would it be a fifth race if I could play terran but it actually shows as random to my opponent?
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On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!!
Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years.
Nobody leaves the game because random is in.
If you remove random, people WILL leave the game.
Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon.
Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway.
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On August 20 2012 18:25 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. Name them please
I was about to ask this as well, which tournaments don't allow random?
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On August 20 2012 20:28 Avicularia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 19:51 Lorch wrote:
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with terran if the fucking game would just show me what's behind his wall in main. Random race is part of this game and it's the hardest one. I really would love to see great random pro player in torunament doing well. That would give so much more adrenaline. About the ladder. Random is just another race so they have also about 50% winrate. That is, you have about 50% to win. How is this not balanced?
Did you seriously compare perfect information with knowing ones race? As I said I am a random player myself and I let my opponents know my race because I'd rather play real games then get an advantage for having to play all matchups...
Also lol at saying 50% winrate equals balance in a system that is programmed to put everyone at 50/50.
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for what its worth this is what i find as a zerg against random players . .the MU's are quite easy in 90% of the cases
i wanted to find all my random replays (im now adding a ZvRZ to my rep names ^^ cos i cant find them)
a random Z either mass lings 21-31 supply of them
a random toss - immortal timing or 4gate or mass proxy zealots
a random terran - mostly go for the bunker rush 2 rax Or a standard heliions into 1 cloacked banshee and then MMM but you can clearly see when its not their prefered MU as they cant drop and multitask so you nearly always wina base race
I see where you are coming from but as a z player i have a pre set opening for all mu and then depending on the drone scout and the 5 min ovie scout is where i start the teching
my vs random mu is alwaus 15G15P15Hatch
edit: just to add why in tournament conditions would you choose to play random, im a butterfly swimmer . . why would i practice front crawl?
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Well as P I just open pylon in main. Then pylon scout and then either 13 gate or nexus first, depends on what I scout. If i scout fast pool i just make another gate and pylon and wall off no problem.
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On August 20 2012 20:49 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!! Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years. Nobody leaves the game because random is in. If you remove random, people WILL leave the game. Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon. Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway.
You're right, I won't leave the game because random is in. That doesn't mean I can't be in a topic about it, arguing that it sucks and could be easily fixed by Blizzard.
And people who would leave the game because Random being forced to show their race at load, I would not be sad to see them go, they are worse that normal cheesers, who are bad enough as is.
Another easy way Blizzard could fix random: Make it work like any other competitive game, such as fighting games. Make random a button which picks a race at random, before you even press find match.
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On August 20 2012 21:01 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:49 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!! Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years. Nobody leaves the game because random is in. If you remove random, people WILL leave the game. Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon. Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway. You're right, I won't leave the game because random is in. That doesn't mean I can't be in a topic about it, arguing that it sucks and could be easily fixed by Blizzard. And people who would leave the game because Random being forced to show their race at load, I would not be sad to see them go, they are worse that normal cheesers, who are bad enough as is. Another easy way Blizzard could fix random: Make it work like any other competitive game, such as fighting games. Make random a button which picks a race at random, before you even press find match.
but there is nothing to fix, random is working as intended.
it is a fun alternative to the 3 other races that do not offset the balance of the game (weakest results). it is made for people that like weird games and/or want to mindfuck their opponents and/or do not want to choose a race because they judge it boring. Blizzard care a lot more about keeping these people playing the game than about satisfying the haters, that won't leave the game anyway.
You have to keep in mind that the lack of information provided by the random choice is a focal point of the race.
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On August 20 2012 21:01 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:49 freakhill wrote:On August 20 2012 20:40 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 20:34 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. So basically, your whole argument comes down to ad hominem. I apparently suck against randoms (which I don't. You hold their pathetic cheese and crush them because they are terrible and play random to cheese using an unfair advantage) and I don't think, which is why I don't want a 4th race. Truth is, it's NOT a forth race, no matter how much you'd like to think so. It's a dice throw, coupled with an unfair information advatange which makes the game boring. Nothing else. As soon as you hold their pathetic cheese, or at least get to the midgame after using a suboptimal build, it's just a normal vT, vP or vZ game, only difference being that you're opening might have sucked against said race so you're not at the economy you'd like... but you still win, because random players are, generally, shit in the late game since they don't know the races as well. Random is not great, and not fun. it does not add more openings and more strategies. It adds a block to properly using your strategies which you've made up for the real matchups. Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. Random is a fourth race. You have to prepare different builds, just as you would for the other three races. The game displays it differently from the other three races on the load screen. Etc. In every way, you have to treat vR differently than you would any other race. What you're trying to do is turn it from being a fourth race to a player just rolling dice on which race to pick. You're trying to remove an element from the game, just because you personally do not like it. Who are you to decide what "properly using your strategies" and "real matchups" are? BTW, is it wrong if all this QQ is making me want to start playing random? Your definition of a race is pretty damn open if "having it's own loading screen picture" makes it a race. Random is not a race. If I play a random and he gets Zerg, it's identical to me playing a normal zerg, I don't need to change anything past the opening. The ONLY thing which changes anything is the fact that I know he will probably cheese me AND I don't know which opening I can do optimally, so I have to do a safe unsatisfying opening. After that point, there's literally nothing different about it. If you find this is enough to call a forth race, cool by me and lovely for blizzard, they could add a ton more races to this game so easily. How about tetoss? Basically, you have your own loading screen, and you spawn as either protoss or terran!! Random is a part of the game and has been for 14 years. Nobody leaves the game because random is in. If you remove random, people WILL leave the game. Thus Blizzard will not remove it anytime soon. Deal with it the way you want, you will never stop playing SC2 because of random anyway. You're right, I won't leave the game because random is in. That doesn't mean I can't be in a topic about it, arguing that it sucks and could be easily fixed by Blizzard. And people who would leave the game because Random being forced to show their race at load, I would not be sad to see them go, they are worse that normal cheesers, who are bad enough as is. Another easy way Blizzard could fix random: Make it work like any other competitive game, such as fighting games. Make random a button which picks a race at random, before you even press find match.
I'm sorry, but you're just coming off as a whiny complainer. If the advantage of random were so large, we would see professional random players --- we don't. If you're having a tough time against randoms, play better, random is inferior to selecting a race.
As to the "It's not a real XvX matchup because the openings are different" or "it won't help me get better because the opening is different". It's rubbish, playing against a random puts you in a different situation, knocks you off your typical playstyle. It can be very useful to play against a good random player, you start in a small hole and you need to play differently from how you normally play to get out of it. Just because an opening isn't standard doesn't mean there's nothing to learn from it. It's tantamount to complaining about a player going for a 2 base aggressive build if you wanted to play a macro game.
Some players like to play random and have their race hidden. Why should your enjoyment be more important than their enjoyment?
Finally, how many times do you actually run into random players? Back in beta or first couple of seasons it was maybe 10% for me, nowadays I'ld say maybe 2-3% of players I run into are random.
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Here I looked up the stats for everyone: www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all You see how randoms pool towards the bronze and there are fewer and fewer as you go towards grandmaster? That's because random is much more difficult. I reiterate if everyone thinks cheesing as random is so easy, they should just go try it. Spend tonight playing 10-15 matches as random (I assume you're going to go as hardcore cheese as possible = 5-10 minute matches) and keep track of your record. If you really want a challenge, try to learn to play the races correctly and see how crushed you get.
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Whenever I played random, I always gave my race to anyone who said "gl hf" or something similar. Later on I begun quizzing people for my race, as that is much more fun, but have never lied. Of course you can't always believe your opponent, but anyone who has played me more than twice stopped doubting it.
Oh also: I was a high masters Terran for 3 seasons before playing a season of Random, where I dropped to diamond before I quit.
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On August 20 2012 19:56 Tchado wrote:
It has been mentioned on this thread before , but I would love it if blizzard display's the random race during the loading screen , this way the random player gets to play whatever race he gets and the opposition isn't at a disadvantage early on. You are not at a disadvantage. You get matches versus a player because of the expected win chance of 50%, regardless of race. You cannot open with the perfect BO since you need to scout very early, but you still have the same chance of winning the game because this is how the match-making works.
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On August 20 2012 20:52 Lorch wrote:
Also lol at saying 50% winrate equals balance in a system that is programmed to put everyone at 50/50.
It makes sense actually. Poeple whine that they lose to random and they're OP. If they have 50% chance to win how is it not fair? Also random players need to put much more effort to improve than all those whiners.
EDIT: I would rather like to see threads like "How to improve random, se we can see pro players choosing it" or something like that. Makes much more sense at the momment when there is almost no random players in masters and higher.
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If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss).
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On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss).
This.
I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me.
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On August 20 2012 17:09 nicknack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 16:59 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:56 VyingsP wrote:
If there was at least one progamer who played Random, I would be such a fan. On August 20 2012 16:54 Psyclon wrote:
Personally, i wish i was good enough to play random. I even dream of winning GSL with random Why? Because this shows you have mastered all races and all match-ups Seriously it would be so cool if there were someone good enough to play random at a professional level Didn't GuineaPig play random in gsl team league all the time. If the load screen shows both races, should be standard, any advantage of not knowing the race goes away. When I play random I would love to know the race before hand even if its only a few seconds, have my build ready, my scout paterns, know what to look for cheese wise and ovi placements if zerg, I know its only a new seconds but I think it would be great.
i would rather say not to show both players' race in screen
that's more fun
and many builds should be refined
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Random should be revealed what race he spawns as in the loading screen. I don't have anythign against random players myself either, but it does fuckup the matchup a ton. If you want to play all the matchups, good on you. But it should not affect your opponent. Random is not "a race", but it is behaving like one right now.
Random players can go whine all they want with "but we have to learn 9 matchups", that is your choice. you're the one who's choosing to be a jack of all trades and master of none. You should not have an extra bonus in form of your opponent having to scout a lot earlier than he wants to and possibly go the wrong build.
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On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me.
Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race).
After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win.
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We're finally here. The day has come when people are arguing that Random is imbalanced. Wow...
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On August 20 2012 20:58 StatixEx wrote:
for what its worth this is what i find as a zerg against random players . .the MU's are quite easy in 90% of the cases
i wanted to find all my random replays (im now adding a ZvRZ to my rep names ^^ cos i cant find them)
a random Z either mass lings 21-31 supply of them
a random toss - immortal timing or 4gate or mass proxy zealots
a random terran - mostly go for the bunker rush 2 rax Or a standard heliions into 1 cloacked banshee and then MMM but you can clearly see when its not their prefered MU as they cant drop and multitask so you nearly always wina base race
I see where you are coming from but as a z player i have a pre set opening for all mu and then depending on the drone scout and the 5 min ovie scout is where i start the teching
my vs random mu is alwaus 15G15P15Hatch
edit: just to add why in tournament conditions would you choose to play random, im a butterfly swimmer . . why would i practice front crawl?
its not all truth what you say! You forget that most randoms started with1 race maybe then even switched races then ended up playing random! Same with me I started with toss then played terran for 6 moths and now random only so my zerg is lacking wich is keeping me in a lower leaugue then I would only playing terran/toss. Wich means if you play me and I spawn terran or toss I can use all builds and openings while if I spwan zerg I would be limited!
but still having good winrate with zerg because vs t you kinda have an advantage because you can keep droning behind 6 queens. and vs Z i can go hatch first wich usualy means an eco lead
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On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win.
A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else.
This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing,
This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning.
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On August 20 2012 22:16 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win. A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else. This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing, This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning.
The problem is not considering vs. random something you have to get good at. Why not?
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On August 20 2012 22:13 labbe wrote:
We're finally here. The day has come when people are arguing that Random is imbalanced. Wow...
You've obviously not read a single post in this thread. Get out.
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On August 20 2012 22:19 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:16 Excludos wrote:On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win. A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else. This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing, This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning. The problem is not considering vs. random something you have to get good at. Why not?
Why do you have to get good vs randoms when none plays them? There are literally no good random players in any tournaments. If its limited to the ladder, and you're using ladder to practice, then obviously you're not going to take a vs random match seriously because it wont affect you later on anyways.
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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
At least GSL allow random players. I think if random had an advantage, we would have seen more random koreans in Code A/Code S. But we don't.
Lookint at the liquidpedia page, it seems only Gumiho qualified for GSL playing random.
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It should be obvious that the benefits of random fail to exceed the disadvantages. How many established, successful pros play random?
There is importance in being consistent with telling or not telling your race with random so that the ladder properly places you where you need to be. Don't sometimes tell; do it always or never. The around 50% winrate is what is important, not the preferences of some crybabies.
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On August 20 2012 22:22 Excludos wrote:
Why do you have to get good vs randoms when none plays them? There are literally no good random players in any tournaments. If its limited to the ladder, and you're using ladder to practice, then obviously you're not going to take a vs random match seriously because it wont affect you later on anyways.
Again the VAST majority of the people complaining seem to be plat and under. At those levels just playing and learning to deal with different situations, learning to think on your feet will help you a lot anyway.
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On August 20 2012 22:23 31415926535 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P At least GSL allow random players. I think if random had an advantage, we would have seen more random koreans in Code A/Code S. But we don't. Lookint at the liquidpedia page, it seems only Gumiho qualified for GSL playing random.
I checked GSL, MLG, IPL and NASL. All allow random. 4/4 I checked allow it. I've played playhem and z33k dailies as random before, so those allow it. I have, in fact, never seen a tournament disallow random.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
I have no problem with random though it would be nice if the loading screen showed race
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There is a huge problem from the random standpoint aswell.
I, for example, started to play random when beta came - why? - because I absolutely loved the game and didn't want to miss on anything that it has to offer. While months and now years passed, i fell in love with the Mutalisk portrait and while on the road to obtaining it I played so much random that now I don't know which race to choose.
I love all races and I feel I would get bored excluding one. Also i'd miss that race and it's dynamics a lot. Now, why don't I alternate between races? It's not that easy to answer but I get so much pleasure from the sheer randomization - or more like it from the feeling when the game chooses instead of me. I can play all of them so why wouldn't I use that option the game offers.
Now, from my standpoint as Random, I get absolutely terrible games pretty often. As a zerg I can't play a straight up 3 hatch game vs Protoss because noone believes me when i tell my race at the start. And even if they do / or see my race fast alot of people prepare the worst cheese they have in their store. Just because I chose random and also tell them my race.
So yeah.. playing random is not a nice experience alot of the time - and it's the non-random players that make it that way. They absolutely want to ruin my day in every way possible.
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On August 20 2012 22:16 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:11 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 22:04 Avicularia wrote:On August 20 2012 22:02 Adrianzo wrote:
If those who go Random does it to cheese only, then they would benefit from it if their race showed instead of "Random" at the loading screen. This is because everyone will scout a random player at 9, no matter what (at least for Zerg and Protoss). This. I have no idea where comes the myth of random cheesers from. Actually as a random player I'm getting cheesed a lot, but it's fine for me. Pretty much, I get cheesed a LOT when I used to play random/when I smurf random, because they assume I won't scout or they don't want to play against random or whatever. I still standard scout in all matchups when I play random (don't try to "not scout" to hide my race). After reading this thread I smurfed as random yesterday, played a guy who asked me for my race, told it to him (I was Z, he was T), he proceeded to try and proxy 2rax me but because I standard 12scouted in the ZvT matchup I caught it and it was an easy win. A lot of people who play on the ladder plays to get good at their respective 3 matchups. If they meet a random, you already know its going to be a fucked game because you're going to have to play unnaturally until you find out what race your opponent is. A lot of the time the game will end up so unnatural that you don't feel like you're learning anything by it, and thus its much more effective to just 6pool or something of the sorts of get the match over with, so you can start a real match with someone else. This affects Random players who just wants to learn all 9 matchups and not be cheesy as well, because their opponent will do stupid things either because of lack of scouting, or because he doesn't care about the game you're playing, This problem would be eliminated if the race of the random player showed in the beginning.
How would you not improve by playing against random? Yeah sure, you might not get to use a specific build aimed at a specific matchup, but getting out of your comfort zone and having to use pure mechanics really isn't that bad practice; even in "ordinary" games weird shit tend to happen, and getting used to responding on the fly is one of the things you get from playing against, and as, random.
If one cannot play a decent game without using a super-specific build against each matchup, they should really take a look at their fundamentals before whining about that "unfair advantage" random players get, because it sure ain't a big one.
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I never understand why people QQ about random when it is the least played 'race' at GM level.
Random players stop cheesing after diamond anyway, and those who do keep cheesing have no idea how to macro. Deal with it, seriously this has been around since BW.
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I find my most fun match ups on ladder end up being random vs random. And cool thing about it random players never care about your race! so we never ask Pure freestyle games are most fun for me!
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My problem with random is that no matter what you do against a random, the early game will never be representative of a normal PvZ, or PvT, or whatever, so you're really just getting practice against random, which doesn't help much since everyone in a real tourny will choose their race. Nothing against random players, but its just a waste of time to play against them if you're trying to practice and improve. I proxy or 4gate against random depending on map.
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On August 20 2012 22:43 _indigo_ wrote:
There is a huge problem from the random standpoint aswell.
I, for example, started to play random when beta came - why? - because I absolutely loved the game and didn't want to miss on anything that it has to offer. While months and now years passed, i fell in love with the Mutalisk portrait and while on the road to obtaining it I played so much random that now I don't know which race to choose.
I love all races and I feel I would get bored excluding one. Also i'd miss that race and it's dynamics a lot. Now, why don't I alternate between races? It's not that easy to answer but I get so much pleasure from the sheer randomization - or more like it from the feeling when the game chooses instead of me. I can play all of them so why wouldn't I use that option the game offers.
Now, from my standpoint as Random, I get absolutely terrible games pretty often. As a zerg I can't play a straight up 3 hatch game vs Protoss because noone believes me when i tell my race at the start. And even if they do / or see my race fast alot of people prepare the worst cheese they have in their store. Just because I chose random and also tell them my race.
So yeah.. playing random is not a nice experience alot of the time - and it's the non-random players that make it that way. They absolutely want to ruin my day in every way possible.
So throw a dice. If it's 1 or 2, pick terran. If it's 3 or 4, pick protoss. if it's 5 or 6, pick zerg. Redo for every game.
That way, you get to play all the races randomly, yet no one will know you're playing random, so no games ruined. Fun and awesome for everyone.
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On August 20 2012 23:26 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:43 _indigo_ wrote:
There is a huge problem from the random standpoint aswell.
I, for example, started to play random when beta came - why? - because I absolutely loved the game and didn't want to miss on anything that it has to offer. While months and now years passed, i fell in love with the Mutalisk portrait and while on the road to obtaining it I played so much random that now I don't know which race to choose.
I love all races and I feel I would get bored excluding one. Also i'd miss that race and it's dynamics a lot. Now, why don't I alternate between races? It's not that easy to answer but I get so much pleasure from the sheer randomization - or more like it from the feeling when the game chooses instead of me. I can play all of them so why wouldn't I use that option the game offers.
Now, from my standpoint as Random, I get absolutely terrible games pretty often. As a zerg I can't play a straight up 3 hatch game vs Protoss because noone believes me when i tell my race at the start. And even if they do / or see my race fast alot of people prepare the worst cheese they have in their store. Just because I chose random and also tell them my race.
So yeah.. playing random is not a nice experience alot of the time - and it's the non-random players that make it that way. They absolutely want to ruin my day in every way possible. So throw a dice. If it's 1 or 2, pick terran. If it's 3 or 4, pick protoss. if it's 5 or 6, pick zerg. Redo for every game. That way, you get to play all the races randomly, yet no one will know you're playing random, so no games ruined. Fun and awesome for everyone.
Random portraits?
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On August 20 2012 18:03 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:51 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively. Just some figures: Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list), 0 random players have won GSL. 0 random players have won MLG. 0 random players have won ESL. 0 random players have won IPL. 0 random players have won NASL. 0 random players have won Dreamhack. 0 random players have won HSC. Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0. Of all the players in grandmasters, NA has three. EU has one. KOR has zero. Of all the players in masters, 4.2% of NA play random. 3.1% of EU play random. 3.7% of KOR play random. Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems. You know, most tourneys doesn't allow random... for a very obvious reason. The % of players who play random doesn't matter. If you play random and want it to be hidden because that keep your opponents on his toes, you are just a minority of players who isn't getting better because isn't getting real openings. Have fun with your circular logic tho. I don't care btw, people who honestly just enjoy playing 3 races and getting better with them will just tell the race at the beginning like d.apollo does. ;P
I'll butt into this too: Which of the tourneys that I listed disallow choosing random as a race? And for which obvious reason would it be disallowed -- so that no one will pick it anyways because it'd be virtually impossible to win? You go even further on a tangent about why none of what I said matters at all yet you haven't even attempted to make an argument other than an obvious reason I'm left to imply on my own.
But don't worry, my logic is circular. (lol)
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I think it would be fine if there were randoms on ladder its just I want their race to be revealed before the game. Its frustrating having to go pool first every time no matter what race they are playing. Like I like to go hatch first vs terran and occasionally against Zerg I just get pissed off that I am put at a huge disadvantage because they are playing random.
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I think random is are fine, you not knowing their race is an advantage they get for knowing how to play all the races.
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On August 21 2012 00:03 FlukyS wrote:
I think it would be fine if there were randoms on ladder its just I want their race to be revealed before the game. Its frustrating having to go pool first every time no matter what race they are playing. Like I like to go hatch first vs terran and occasionally against Zerg I just get pissed off that I am put at a huge disadvantage because they are playing random.
9scout - problem solved.
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People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish.
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while my experiance of random is same as most lot of cheese (not sure this is cause they always cheese more than they good with 2 out of 3 races and when they get the other race they just cheese)
I would say to the OP guessing you always FFE vs zerg do you also always do a certain start vs other 2 if so you need a 4th opening thats good vs all geared towards being best vs zerg to make you comfortable vs your worse matchup SC2 is more about mentality than you think
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On August 21 2012 00:10 FairForever wrote:
9scout - problem solved.
Still at a disadvantage because I only 9 scout in ZvT.
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As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad.
Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that).
People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish.
Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak)
Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss.
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On August 20 2012 18:26 playa wrote:
Say ffe is the optimal build versus zerg. How early does toss have to scout to be able to still ffe? Unless you can make ffe viable in every matchup, then this has to be an advantage for you, unless you want to make a good argument for why players are making a mistake by not scouting this early versus non random opponents. When you choose random, why wouldn't you scout with, say, your first worker? I would say thank god people that don't see the advantage aren't working on balancing this game, but then again, with the lack of a fix... maybe they are. Again, random is too rare the higher you go, so I don't intend on facing it that often, but it's just so silly to me that they won't make it fair.
There is NO optimal build in a good strategy game. That would be imbalanced and stale. Multiple styles and builds are viable, even in PvZ, hence why people are saying that you don't have to FFE in PvZ. Not being able to do the build you want to do is not a disadvantage. Having to scout earlier doesn't put you at a disadvantage. Having less minerals from sending out the scout doesn't put you behind because you got information on the opening build in return, it's a trade.
In a strategy game like SC2 there are asymetrical advantages and disadvantages; a zerg may open hatch first and try to secure an economic advantage, but he has to sacrifice an army and tech advantage in that time to do so. A protoss could not FFE and be behind in the economic aspect but that doesn't mean you are actually behind in the game, as you have advantages in other aspects of the strategy game.
Everyone whining about being at a disadvantage has yet to show that they are actually at a disadvantage, which is quite difficult and probably impossible to make a case for in less than a page of text for such a complicated game. And even if they were at a disadvantage, no game of SC2 is ever lost because of only one thing. It is always a combination several factors which cause a loss; solely your opponent being random is not what made you lose the game.
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On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). Show nested quote +People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss.
When your opponent goes hatch first you can easily go nexus first. Especially on maps like daybreak.
If it's a four player map where you don't scout him first you chrono out 3 zealots and attack after the first two. (When he does hatch first, his lings will be very late)
Or you just expand after gateway. Since a gate and a forge cost exactly the same your expansion is down at the same time as with a ffe. And don't tell me you cannon rush players who go hatch first. Every decent player can hold that off and be ahead. But judging from your post, you don't seem to be on a level where strategy even matters.
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On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). Show nested quote +People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss.
I do a gateway expand and suitable followup a la Adelscott or Naniwa -which I have seen both of these players use successfully against hatch-first zergs at the pro level- and take it to a macro game where my superior play will give me an advantage. If these players can beat the opponents they have with this "build-order loss" then it's certainly nothing like as one-sided as you claim.
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The small advantage you get or disadvantage you have is the same as when playing another race, other then random, who chooses a different (wonky) build order (a build order you are not expecting) which results in you being slightly behind or ahead.
i really dont get what the problem is.
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last scout place find on big maps vs him going two hatch mass lings especially on taldarim is pure death but u have to count with it they risk more than you and u know they will do 2 base or cheese in many cases so only play save.......
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On August 21 2012 00:24 FlukyS wrote:Still at a disadvantage because I only 9 scout in ZvT.
Still no disadvantage in reality because the match maker matches you versus opponents of equal skill.
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On August 21 2012 00:49 Artimo wrote:
The small advantage you get or disadvantage you have is the same as when playing another race, other then random, who chooses a different (wonky) build order (a build order you are not expecting) which results in you being slightly behind or ahead.
i really dont get what the problem is.
A player of at least a decent level would not do "wonky" build orders in a normal game.
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this thread brings luls. please people, i urge you to switch to random and try to maintain your ladder rank. you have no idea how much more skill you need
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random is really way to hard to play with
that being said the ability to throw your opponents off in the early game (for instance, i'm toss so where i put my first pylon (lowground or close to nexus for a 1gate fe or ffe?) against a random player can be quite the pain since i'm not going to 6 scout or something dumb like that)
people played random on wc3 too and I always thought it was pretty nifty honestly-its a good feature
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On August 21 2012 02:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:49 Artimo wrote:
The small advantage you get or disadvantage you have is the same as when playing another race, other then random, who chooses a different (wonky) build order (a build order you are not expecting) which results in you being slightly behind or ahead.
i really dont get what the problem is.
A player of at least a decent level would not do "wonky" build orders in a normal game.
even the pros do it. how often have you heard the casters say someone has a slight advantage because of the build order they did vs another?
and the likelyhood of someone not in GM doing a different (wonky) build is much larger.
people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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The game wasn't meant to have just one build order for the matchup i.e. ffe pvz. If it was the ge would be incredibly one dimensional. It seems you are complaining about the fact you can't use just one b.o. in every matchup vs a specific race. Innovation and forward thinking is part of the game. Just because a build isn't featured on youtube doesnt mean it isn't good.
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I guess what im trying to also say is the disadvantage or advantage one gets could just as easily be realized in any mirror matchup where you know you are playing a mirror matchup. perhaps even more so in mirror matchup then matchups of different races.
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the annoying thing about random players is that they have 1 strong race and 2 not so strong races. These 2 races are the only reason that they are in whatever league. for example a diamond random player with be a master zerg and then diamond level terran and protoss. As a result, if you get their "off" races, then you have a good game, if you get their strong race, then you just get raped.
Random really fucks up MMR sometimes in terms of weaker players being smashed by masters level players who are only in diamond because of their terrible ZvZ and ZvP...
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Anti-random is anti-fun.
I play this game for fun, and playing random is a big part of that. I rarely cheese. I will usually tell a person what race I am. I just want to play random, and I'd be a lot less inclined to play the game if I had to choose a race everytime I queue for a match.
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On August 21 2012 03:25 SpeCtor wrote:
the annoying thing about random players is that they have 1 strong race and 2 not so strong races. These 2 races are the only reason that they are in whatever league. for example a diamond random player with be a master zerg and then diamond level terran and protoss. As a result, if you get their "off" races, then you have a good game, if you get their strong race, then you just get raped.
Random really fucks up MMR sometimes in terms of weaker players being smashed by masters level players who are only in diamond because of their terrible ZvZ and ZvP...
not only that, i myself have best match ups and not particularly dependent on race. tvp, pvt, zvt, tvt are my best/favorite match ups and zvz, pvz at worst.
random was shunned in custom 1v1 games in bw, they'll ask you to pick race or kick you. i understand this because they want match up practice but ladder is different where it isn't about match up practice and just a 1v1 with no specifics. random gain no advantage as much as they lose advantage. you cannot see this per game because random plays a different game every time they click on that find match button. and the mmr takes care of imbalance on strong/weak match ups but how is this any different than anyone picking their race? pvt could be someone's best match up and pvz their worst, this is no different for random players too but just in wider range.
as said many times before, if a protoss player finds FFE is the only viable build order vz zerg, 1) blame blizzard for game design, 2) get better at gateway expand. its really no different than complaining that FFE should be viable in pvp also.
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Opinion: I'm sure playing random is super fun, but it sucks for Protoss players since bnet matches you with equally skilled opponents except in PvR they have the advantage of you not knowing their race. It's that simple. I don't like PvR, I think it's an automatic unfair advantage against the P player (however slight people want to mince it, it IS an advantage) because of so many different factors, and that is not cool in a strategy game that supposedly starts every match off on equal grounds. Basically, if any of these factors force me as the Protoss player to play against, say, Random-Zerg differently than I would Zerg, it's an advantage. I'm high masters, and I play FFE against Zerg always. Clearly you can't play PvR with a FFE, but the presence of the R option forces me as a player to play gate-expand which is not the way I would play the normal matchup because of certain disadvantages I believe to exist in playing gate-expand vs Zerg. It was flawed like this in BW when I played it but it didn't matter so much as there was no matchmaking system like there is in SC2, and yet it found its way into the game. As far as SC2 goes, it has been championed by Blizzard (though never logically defended) and, again, as an opinion, I really don't think Random has a place in any sort of ranked play.
Bottom line is that if Random were to be implemented right so that it confers no advantage to any player, once the loading screen is finished the race that the other player randomed as should be displayed on the race button when you click it. In my opinion, disagreeing with this last point is tantamount to acknowledging that there is an advantage for the R player otherwise you wouldn't care if the race you randomed was displayed to your opponent. People who talk about how to play correctly against Random race as Protoss are talking truthfully, but skirting the whole point in that choosing Random as a race in an RTS confers an unfair advantage to the R player.
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On August 21 2012 00:14 Kasu wrote:
People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish.
How is this better than having the loading screen show what race(s) was randommed?
Of course, what you say is absolutely correct, but it's just poor design, giving the games a wierd dissymmetry, with the random player having an information advantage and the other player being better at the game.
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Why even show any race on the ladder even if a race was picked ?
It would be better if all race choices were hidden and that players have to scout what there opponent really is, this would lead to better games because people dont go into their auto build ordermode from loading screen second one.
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On August 21 2012 04:01 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:14 Kasu wrote:
People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. How is this better than having the loading screen show what race(s) was randommed? Of course, what you say is absolutely correct, but it's just poor design, giving the games a wierd dissymmetry, with the random player having an information advantage and the other player being better at the game.
This is incorrect.
For example in masters league in an XvR match-up, R has an information advantage and is a master level player. X has an information DISadvantage and is also a master level player. Maybe it took R longer to get to master league, but now he's there he's still playing at the same level. And probably has even more of an advantage of knowing your race better than you know his.
On August 21 2012 04:12 Holy_AT wrote:
Why even show any race on the ladder even if a race was picked ?
It would be better if all race choices were hidden and that players have to scout what there opponent really is, this would lead to better games because people dont go into their auto build ordermode from loading screen second one.
Please tell me you're joking, right? lol
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On August 21 2012 04:13 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:01 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 00:14 Kasu wrote:
People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. How is this better than having the loading screen show what race(s) was randommed? Of course, what you say is absolutely correct, but it's just poor design, giving the games a wierd dissymmetry, with the random player having an information advantage and the other player being better at the game. This is incorrect. For example in masters league in an XvR match-up, R has an information advantage and is a master level player. X has an information DISadvantage and is also a master level player. Maybe it took R longer to get to master league, but now he's there he's still playing at the same level. And probably has even more of an advantage of knowing your race better than you know his. Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:12 Holy_AT wrote:
Why even show any race on the ladder even if a race was picked ?
It would be better if all race choices were hidden and that players have to scout what there opponent really is, this would lead to better games because people dont go into their auto build ordermode from loading screen second one. Please tell me you're joking, right? lol
Lack of understanding fail.
If you're saying that the Random player theoretically has a better than 50% win rate over you (equally matched), then he would already have a higher MMR.
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I like where this thread is going, makes me wonder why every single thread about random posted before were all locked.
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I am not joking, it is a design choice of the game to show the races at the start even though they are not scouted witch does not make sense in a way. If the loading screen would only show Playername X vs Playername Y. The advantage of the random player would be taken away because the racechoice is hidden and every race would have to choose openings to fit this new situation. The assumptions that you have to know the races is not valid or necessary.
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Random players are doing far the worst. The information advantage gets overcompensated by having to learn 3 races. Cometetively there are no random players, and also GM had barely any random players. At least let them have one thing. If a random player managed to play competitively it would create huge hype (just look at TLO). It is good for the game.
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On August 21 2012 04:13 ArchAngelSC wrote:
This is incorrect.
For example in masters league in an XvR match-up, R has an information advantage and is a master level player. X has an information DISadvantage and is also a master level player. Maybe it took R longer to get to master league, but now he's there he's still playing at the same level. And probably has even more of an advantage of knowing your race better than you know his.
Your argument is flawed. Here's why: you assume R is at the same level as X. This implies that the random factor (playing as a random race) IS part of is rank. The MMR only takes into account wins and losses against your oponents, not your race, macro skills, build orders, or whatever. If you play against an oponent who is said to have the same level as you as a random player, this is already taking the information advantage into account for his ranking.
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I agree with everyone here who treat random as another matchup. Why treat them as just one of 3 matchups? Why not as a separate matchup that you have to prepare different builds for (at least for the start of the game). If there were more random players at a higher level i believe we would see the evolution of these builds.
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On August 21 2012 04:23 Leafty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:13 ArchAngelSC wrote:
This is incorrect.
For example in masters league in an XvR match-up, R has an information advantage and is a master level player. X has an information DISadvantage and is also a master level player. Maybe it took R longer to get to master league, but now he's there he's still playing at the same level. And probably has even more of an advantage of knowing your race better than you know his. Your argument is flawed. Here's why: you assume R is at the same level as X. This implies that the random factor (playing as a random race) IS part of is rank. The MMR only takes into account wins and losses against your oponents, not your race, macro skills, build orders, or whatever. If you play against an oponent who is said to have the same level as you as a random player, this is already taking the information advantage into account for his ranking.
True I hadn't thought about that.
I still hate playing against random cause it's a waste of time not knowing what you're playing against so you can't actually practice anything useful.
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Randommers getting a "secret buildorder" is another total bs argument, every protoss should worry you about a possible cannonrush/proxygate and every terran should worry you about bunkerrush/proxyrax/whatever and every zerg should worry you about a 6pool or baneling bust.
That's why you scout.
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Play random if it's such a big advantage! Feel the joy of 15 game win streaks, and then the torment of 20+ game losing streaks. Depends on what match ups you get. I love it.
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Wow this is amazing. When i started playing, i played Terran, and everyone on TL was always complaining about overpowered Terrans. At some point I switched to P just to again play the "OP" race. When I eventually went back to T the ghost was to strong and everyone on TL ranted about it...so when i switched to random i thought that curse would have been broken... .
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I have no problem with their natural advantages.
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On August 21 2012 05:01 diddLY wrote:
Play random if it's such a big advantage! Feel the joy of 15 game win streaks, and then the torment of 20+ game losing streaks. Depends on what match ups you get. I love it.
No one forces you to play Random, BNet forces us to play against Random.
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first it was terran...then protoss...then zerg...and now maybe random?
its hilarious lol
playxp needs to add random in jingjing/QQ/TT poll and let little to no hilarity ensue
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As a random player you all make me laugh... We have to learn x3 the match ups, which believe it or not is much harder than x3 the difficulty. Random is not banned in tournaments, random is not banned in the GSL. Seriously some of you are hilarious xD.
Learn safe builds, learn to 1 base pvz. God I can't believe that people actually are complaining about this.
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On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). Show nested quote +People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss.
I think that's the problem right there
assuming random race has an "advantage", u should be alot better than him if u are at the same mmr as him lol
u lose simply you are bad(not good enough), that is all
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It's just ladder... Can't understand why people are seriously raging about shit like that.
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On August 21 2012 03:25 SpeCtor wrote:
the annoying thing about random players is that they have 1 strong race and 2 not so strong races. These 2 races are the only reason that they are in whatever league. for example a diamond random player with be a master zerg and then diamond level terran and protoss. As a result, if you get their "off" races, then you have a good game, if you get their strong race, then you just get raped.
Random really fucks up MMR sometimes in terms of weaker players being smashed by masters level players who are only in diamond because of their terrible ZvZ and ZvP...
Someone who has his main race is not real random. Other than that, I bet you also have your weaker match up... Let's say you're zerg, you're good at ZvZ, ZvT but your ZvP sucks. It's same story there.
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On August 21 2012 05:24 zala2023 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss. I think that's the problem right there assuming random race has an "advantage", u should be alot better than him if u are at the same mmr as him lol u lose simply you are bad(not good enough), that is all
It's not an assumption, it's a fact.
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I play Random.... but only in 2v2,3v3, 4v4.
Otherwise you end up playing against someone who doesn't know your race and consequently won't be able to do their usual build orders. Its kind of an advantage but at the same time it kind of sucks because the games are so "random" (har har) that it is no longer a good learning experience.
If I'm practicing 1v1 and I choose to play random instead of race picking I'll usually tell the other player what race I spawn as, that way we can both be like, "Oh, OK, its a TvZ" or whatever.
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I find it funny that a game that's so complicated and beautiful such as SC2 gets bashed because people HAVE TO PLAY their robot-build without even considering that playing vs random might just help them with their decision making skills and build order variations.
Why would you bother THINKING your game when you can just go into robot mode and do the same build you do OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
Must be fun.
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I have raged against Random a lot. Basically I used to play Protoss and absolutely HATED PvR since if they were Zerg I was already behind after going Gateway first. Eventually I just started 5:25 3 gating every game because at least I did not just die to Zerg and sometimes I could kill them off if they did not know what they were doing.
Also I remember back when I was in platinum I would occasionally get crushed and the guy would say something like he was Masters with Terran and lower with Protoss or Zerg. I actually did not mind those games so much because they were good learning experiences.
Now I play a bunch of random myself and it is fun. I do not think it gives an unfair advantage because it is tough to master all three races. Basically there is a reason that none of the pros play random.
In general I would not mind Bnet giving you race or even matchup specific MMRs.
Back when I played mostly Toss, my PvP was stellar, my PvT pretty bad and my PvZ really bad.
I could trash Master's players in PvP by just 4 gating (back then that was still good), but my FF casting sucked which really hurt my other matchups.
Now it has evened out a bit more so it is less of an issue, but I have a lot of sympathy for those complaining.
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It's a selection that benefits you with a particular advantage. If random is an actual advantage then play it yourself. If you don't want to play random , that's you choice don't bitch that other people made the choice to play it. You are given an equal as advantage to take advantage of this scenario. You must accept that different build orders are required as opposed to simply whining you can't do the only one opening you've practiced per matchup.
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Players should be able to choose random, but in my opinion the random players race should not be secret during the loading.
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On August 21 2012 05:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's a selection that benefits you with a particular advantage. If random is an actual advantage then play it yourself. If you don't want to play random , that's you choice don't bitch that other people made the choice to play it. You are given an equal as advantage to take advantage of this scenario. You must accept that different build orders are required as opposed to simply whining you can't do the only one opening you've practiced per matchup.
Some of us don't have time to spend on learning all matchups and like being in the league we're in so that's not a solution. Your "tough love" standpoint doesn't really address the OP's complaint either; the main point as I read it was that Protoss gets shafted more so by PvR than any other race because although Terran is always going to place a barracks and Zerg is always going to place a spawning pool, P has a bidirectional choice when it comes to their first building and both are played differently and come with their own pros and cons, the pros of one keeping you on more equal footing vs a particular race than the other option. If you see what I'm getting at you might say learn a gate-expand for PvZ, but thats total bs becuase I, along with other P players, believe that the best option in PvZ is the FFE not the gate-expand but that is not a safe option by any means in PvR.
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On August 21 2012 06:05 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's a selection that benefits you with a particular advantage. If random is an actual advantage then play it yourself. If you don't want to play random , that's you choice don't bitch that other people made the choice to play it. You are given an equal as advantage to take advantage of this scenario. You must accept that different build orders are required as opposed to simply whining you can't do the only one opening you've practiced per matchup. Some of us don't have time to spend on learning all matchups and like being in the league we're in so that's not a solution. Your "tough love" standpoint doesn't really address the OP's complaint either; the main point as I read it was that Protoss gets shafted more so by PvR than any other race because although Terran is always going to place a barracks and Zerg is always going to place a spawning pool, P has a bidirectional choice when it comes to their first building and both are played differently and come with their own pros and cons, the pros of one keeping you on more equal footing vs a particular race than the other option. If you see what I'm getting at you might say learn a gate-expand for PvZ, but thats total bs becuase I, along with other P players, believe that the best option in PvZ is the FFE not the gate-expand but that is not a safe option by any means in PvR.
then the problem lies within blizzard's game design, not randomers.
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On August 21 2012 00:46 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss. When your opponent goes hatch first you can easily go nexus first. Especially on maps like daybreak. If it's a four player map where you don't scout him first you chrono out 3 zealots and attack after the first two. (When he does hatch first, his lings will be very late) Or you just expand after gateway. Since a gate and a forge cost exactly the same your expansion is down at the same time as with a ffe. And don't tell me you cannon rush players who go hatch first. Every decent player can hold that off and be ahead. But judging from your post, you don't seem to be on a level where strategy even matters.
He's just trolling. Hatch first is cheese?
The only real problem with random is people who 'offrace' as random. (and maybe someone who cannonrushes in PvP on a 4 player map and you scout him last, but come on, when does that ever happen?) I've noticed this myself (I play terran). I either stomp them when I spawn as terran, or spawn as zerg/protoss and have a tough time.
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I like the fact that your race is not revealed, because this means: You have to learn hard to learn all 6 match-ups, but if you do it we reward you by a small advantage. It at least has a payoff to learn everything, even if it cannot compensate for the distribution of the learning.
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On August 21 2012 06:05 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's a selection that benefits you with a particular advantage. If random is an actual advantage then play it yourself. If you don't want to play random , that's you choice don't bitch that other people made the choice to play it. You are given an equal as advantage to take advantage of this scenario. You must accept that different build orders are required as opposed to simply whining you can't do the only one opening you've practiced per matchup. Some of us don't have time to spend on learning all matchups and like being in the league we're in so that's not a solution. Your "tough love" standpoint doesn't really address the OP's complaint either; the main point as I read it was that Protoss gets shafted more so by PvR than any other race because although Terran is always going to place a barracks and Zerg is always going to place a spawning pool, P has a bidirectional choice when it comes to their first building and both are played differently and come with their own pros and cons, the pros of one keeping you on more equal footing vs a particular race than the other option. If you see what I'm getting at you might say learn a gate-expand for PvZ, but thats total bs becuase I, along with other P players, believe that the best option in PvZ is the FFE not the gate-expand but that is not a safe option by any means in PvR.
And what solution would you propose that doesn't shaft every random player who also enjoy the advantage of a hidden race? OP's complaint doesn't have to be addressed because it's not an issue.
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On August 21 2012 06:15 kranten wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:46 Zetter wrote:On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss. When your opponent goes hatch first you can easily go nexus first. Especially on maps like daybreak. If it's a four player map where you don't scout him first you chrono out 3 zealots and attack after the first two. (When he does hatch first, his lings will be very late) Or you just expand after gateway. Since a gate and a forge cost exactly the same your expansion is down at the same time as with a ffe. And don't tell me you cannon rush players who go hatch first. Every decent player can hold that off and be ahead. But judging from your post, you don't seem to be on a level where strategy even matters. He's just trolling. Hatch first is cheesing?
It is not cheesing, but I wouldn't recommend it. Most protoss players cheese the random players (cannon rush, proxy 2 gate).
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On August 21 2012 06:20 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:15 kranten wrote:On August 21 2012 00:46 Zetter wrote:On August 21 2012 00:35 falaakr wrote:As a toss, i used to cheese every random i encountered, while kindly asking them to die as the fucking cheesers they are, even sometimes continuing after the game finished if they were bad. Now i first ask their race (even adding a gl hf before) and play as i would if they answer, and only cheese+bm when they dont answer (or when they lie, but then the cheese is usually pretty bad, and they get *2 the bm for that). People need to stop with the whole "random gets an unfair advantage" thing. If you meet a random player on ladder, they have the same MMR as you and the match is around 50-50 as to which way it will go. This is calculated from their previous results WHICH INCLUDE THE ADVANTAGE OF SPAWNING RANDOM.
THUS RANDOM IS ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR WITHIN THEIR MMR SCORE. You are balanced AFTER you include that fact, so you and your random opponent are still level, i.e. you are not at a disadvantage.
Edit: To clarify further for the hard-of-reading:
Any random opponent you meet will be slightly worse than you, which is compensated for by their random information advantage. Take this away by scouting and you are effectively trading a few minerals to force a straight-up game against someone worse than you.
Of course, if you're playing to improve that's no help. But let's hear no more of the "boo-hoo, its not fair, I'm at a disadvantage against random" rubbish. Please tell me how you beat a cheeser (aka random player) that hatch first when you have to go gate first ? (especially on maps like daybreak) Even if you're slightly better than him, you don't have the two ligue difference it takes to balance such a bo loss. When your opponent goes hatch first you can easily go nexus first. Especially on maps like daybreak. If it's a four player map where you don't scout him first you chrono out 3 zealots and attack after the first two. (When he does hatch first, his lings will be very late) Or you just expand after gateway. Since a gate and a forge cost exactly the same your expansion is down at the same time as with a ffe. And don't tell me you cannon rush players who go hatch first. Every decent player can hold that off and be ahead. But judging from your post, you don't seem to be on a level where strategy even matters. He's just trolling. Hatch first is cheesing? It is not cheesing, but I wouldn't recommend it. Most protoss players cheese the random players (cannon rush, proxy 2 gate).
I know ^^ I was referring to the who got quoted by the guy I quoted.
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My only issue with random players is random cheesers (I am Terran). Cheese is quite a bit stronger when you do not know it is coming, which is impossible if they are random cheesing.
I think the game should have a pie fly out of the screen and hit random cheesers in the face. Other than that, random is fine and if they go for macro, I know I have an experience advantage. I do have to depot scout, which is usually not normal, and lose a bit of econ there, but overall I usually end up feeling comfortable in the long haul.
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People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ.
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There is a minimum of random players at mid-high masters. A few of them tell right out what race they get. That said, it really does change things except if you're terran (you pretty much can 1rax expand anyway)
As zerg, the minimum of things i have to do to deal with random players isn't that big of a deal. I don't dronescout vs zerg, i do agains't P and T, worst case scenario: i scout him as Z and i get to see gases. Or i scout him as T after going 14p, no big deal except that it feels awkward vs T. Random players tend to cheese more often, if you keep that in mind, you are at a slight disadvantage if the player is actually good (some players are good at masters, as it is much harder to improve yourself.) but you are at a very big advantage if they actually do cheese. I will admit that it is kind-of like playing against a 4th race (not Moon.), with less to take for your improvement, the mechanical skills you gained still remain.
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@jinorazi: Yes, if anything I believe the gripe is with game design that on one hand wants to be well-balanced, but on the other hand provides a way for imbalance to exist.
@rd: I offered my solution earlier. Allow Random as a race but make the race that was randomed be visible in game when you click the alliance button or whatever that is in the top right of the game. The point is if Blizzard intends for Random to have an advantage, there's nothing that can be done about it; that's how the game works. It's stupid, illogical, and unfitting for an RTS, but that's how it is and a single complaint post isn't going to change anything. I've always thought that it existed so that you could add some spice for casuals who like for whatever reason having a random result determine their race at game-time and that it wasn't intended to be anything but that. Like I said before as well, when you have a good matchmaking system and PvZ/PvP/PvT as they currently are the matter gets really complicated, moreso than it ever was for BW. I would just prefer Blizzard to, if they don't know already, take a look at how PvR is different from the other XvR matchups and realize how P gets the shaft and then decide whether they want that to happen or not, that's all.
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On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ.
Implying NonY faces random in gm.
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On August 21 2012 06:17 Sandermatt wrote:
I like the fact that your race is not revealed, because this means: You have to learn hard to learn all 6 match-ups, but if you do it we reward you by a small advantage. It at least has a payoff to learn everything, even if it cannot compensate for the distribution of the learning.
there's 9 match ups not 6. Mirrors count too.
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On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm.
No. It's implying that NonY uses Gateway Expand builds vs Zerg.
The FFE or die mentality is a crutch.
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On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm.
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die.
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On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die.
No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
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Sc2 being a strategy game does require decisionmaking on your gameplan in every matchup. Most sc2 players being copiers will do gameplans that tehy see from pros. This means people know what they have to do PvP, PvT and PvZ. If they cant be creative though finding openers for PvR is just a result of them not having the skill for that. You can be creativ and strategic, finding things such as FFE and canon rush if no zerg or just gateway expand against zerg which is viable if you follow it up with a quick 6 gate. You think you are behind because the gameplan you copy from others doesnt apply. This doesnt mean you cant make PvR even.
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On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
I have a hard time believing the majority of people complaining about random are anywhere even remotely close to GM.
Which is what the nested quote implies in defense of random players. I agree with him.
The idea that most people playing against random players don't need to do the openings that random would make difficult, like FFE specifically.
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gotta say i agree with it beign a bit bm to ask a random what race he is.
Wish there was an otion to play random against a random opponent though
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On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you?
It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely.
It's stupid.
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On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid.
The simple issue is that people do not enjoy playing against random at all.
Say everytime you search for a game you get a little electro shock.
That would get a lot of complaints and people would want that to be changed.
Exact Same Issue.
People dislike a completely useless feature (Random not showing the race)
So they hope by giving voice to their complaints in whatever form, something might change.
Now how is that so freaking hard to understand!?
The Issue is not if it is truly imbalanced or balanced or what are the possible ways.
There is just no necessity for me not to know what race I am up against in a game of Starcraft, so I don't want that.
Also I have yet to read a single reason why it provides huge advantages in terms of enjoyment or game depth for any of the players in a Random v X match not to see the Race one is up against.
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this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen)
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On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid.
I think a better point would be how FFE works better for a great number of other, more successful Protoss players (no slight to Tyler really, the comment just serves a point) and that it's not about having to open in ways we're not used to or learning other builds, but more about wanting to open with what is widely considered the best opener PvZ and not being able to because of some silly option that has nothing to do with the game really.
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On August 21 2012 08:00 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. I think a better point would be how FFE works better for a great number of other, more successful Protoss players (no slight to Tyler really, the comment just serves a point) and that it's not about having to open in ways we're not used to or learning other builds, but more about wanting to open with what is widely considered the best opener PvZ and not being able to because of some silly option that has nothing to do with the game really.
Go pylon in base first and then FFE, then. If builds usable by GM players aren't good enough, then maybe a build usable by top progamers is.
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On August 21 2012 07:01 tehemperorer wrote:
@jinorazi: Yes, if anything I believe the gripe is with game design that on one hand wants to be well-balanced, but on the other hand provides a way for imbalance to exist.
@rd: I offered my solution earlier. Allow Random as a race but make the race that was randomed be visible in game when you click the alliance button or whatever that is in the top right of the game. The point is if Blizzard intends for Random to have an advantage, there's nothing that can be done about it; that's how the game works. It's stupid, illogical, and unfitting for an RTS, but that's how it is and a single complaint post isn't going to change anything. I've always thought that it existed so that you could add some spice for casuals who like for whatever reason having a random result determine their race at game-time and that it wasn't intended to be anything but that. Like I said before as well, when you have a good matchmaking system and PvZ/PvP/PvT as they currently are the matter gets really complicated, moreso than it ever was for BW. I would just prefer Blizzard to, if they don't know already, take a look at how PvR is different from the other XvR matchups and realize how P gets the shaft and then decide whether they want that to happen or not, that's all.
When you say Random shafts protoss, do you mean the Protoss loses 95% of the time and it's unwinnable, or that Protoss MAY lose 5-10% more often for reasons that might not even be due to random? Cause it's been laid out pretty plainly you can play as P vs R just fine.
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At my place on the ladder (gold 1's diamond team's) random really doesnt bug me. I have very mineral oriented builds like timed out expos and things. so my build doesn't really ever changed based on race or what i see(most of the time). I'm just a different kind of player, i guess i play a very straight up style. just get more units than my opponent/
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On August 21 2012 07:50 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. There is just no necessity for me not to know what race I am up against in a game of Starcraft, so I don't want that.
Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting!
Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please.
Edit: watching Ret's stream right now where he is matched up against adelescott who *gasp*, did not FE!
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]Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting!
Yeah why not simply start the game with random resources in both players bases, one gets 4 Gases the other none. Make the game interesting!
I could play PvZ for the rest of my life and it would stay interesting, if you really are bored with SC2 already why even bother posting here!?
Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please.
Don't be so snappy bitch.
I don't have to "learn more than one build pvz" I have to either learn a completely different build for like 3% of my games or leave them. Both seems no fun to me and the people I talked to.
Why not make stop punishing maphackers? If they enjoy it, let them.
One single reasonable argument is all I ask for. And enjoyment clearly doesn't count.
I say I do not enjoy it one bit. You do not care about that, so obviously it can not count for you either.
So...... go!
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On August 21 2012 08:11 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:50 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. There is just no necessity for me not to know what race I am up against in a game of Starcraft, so I don't want that. Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting! Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please. Edit: watching Ret's stream right now where he is matched up against adelescott who *gasp*, did not FE!
Fuck you and your attitude, asshole!
User was temp banned for this post.
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8748 Posts
On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream).
the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o
there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
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On August 21 2012 08:00 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). The point is, if Gateway expand builds vs Zerg can work for NonY they can work for any of the Protoss complaining about Randoms in this thread. I don't see any players arguing against Randoms in here that are on a higher tier than NonY do you? It's not an argument at this point about what's fair or what's not fair, it's simply a matter of Protoss players in this thread not wanting to open in a way they aren't used to. So rather than learn a new build that might help them improve anyway they want to completely change the way ladder works for all Random players just so they can Forge Fast Expand freely. It's stupid. I think a better point would be how FFE works better for a great number of other, more successful Protoss players (no slight to Tyler really, the comment just serves a point) and that it's not about having to open in ways we're not used to or learning other builds, but more about wanting to open with what is widely considered the best opener PvZ and not being able to because of some silly option that has nothing to do with the game really.
Alright I'll bite.
Give me a progamer more successful than Naniwa. Naniwa who specifically opted to go for gateway expands as part of his plan to defeat DRG, Naniwa who took games off of DRG one of the most successful top tier Zergs in the world with gateway expands.
Give me a progamer more successful than Naniwa who thinks that you HAVE to FFE against Zergs and I might concede you have a point.
The fact is, no one at the top level is complaining about Random because it isn't a problem for them. It's just a problem for people down in the lower leagues who would rather complain than adapt their play in the 5-10% of games where they go against Random players.
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On August 21 2012 08:20 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +]Actually, there is no necessity for you TO know the race you are up against. I agree with what someone said a while back. There should be no races displayed at all. Make the game interesting!
Yeah why not simply start the game with random resources in both players bases, one gets 4 Gases the other none. Make the game interesting! I could play PvZ for the rest of my life and it would stay interesting, if you really are bored with SC2 already why even bother posting here!? Show nested quote +Also, what if people enjoy playing random just so they can have the little advantage at the start, and enjoy cheesing, and are good enough to win in masters with it. Why take that away because you can't learn more than one build pvz? Please. Don't be so snappy bitch. I don't have to "learn more than one build pvz" I have to either learn a completely different build for like 3% of my games or leave them. Both seems no fun to me and the people I talked to. Why not make stop punishing maphackers? If they enjoy it, let them. One single reasonable argument is all I ask for. And enjoyment clearly doesn't count. I say I do not enjoy it one bit. You do not care about that, so obviously it can not count for you either. So...... go! They're fixing it in HotS with the Mothership Core and more viable Stargate tech, so in theory you could 1g FE into gateway units plus Phoenix for harassment and map control and Tempests in the late-game. Though, I'm not 100% sure if the Mothership Core would be able to hold a 12 minute max, I'm inclined to since at the moment in the HotS custom it does something like 75 damage with a very long range. (10+)
Until then, it is an issue.
Edit: Maybe not?
On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
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On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
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On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
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On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: Show nested quote +there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
I was just about to quote that same line.
It almost appeared like he didn't even read what he wrote.
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On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: Show nested quote +there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever, and the zerg can do absolutely nothing to deny that nexus?
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![[image loading]](http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/Myrkskogg/random.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever?
No, but you can say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game.
There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his.
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This isn't adding to the conversation, it's just going to incite more trolls and flamers. Take it off please.
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On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his.
And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this.
Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will.
And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic.
Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. .
How is what I quoted any different from normal PvZ where the Zerg assumes the Protoss is going for a FFE or TvZ where Terran assumes the Zerg is 15 hatching.
It doesn't matter what you're assuming you still have to scout and react if something is going differently. I don't ever assume my Protoss opponent is gateway expanding when I random against Protoss. I've had situations where they're blindly Nexus firsting (this one is actually pretty common), going for 1 base all ins, Forge Fast Expanding even though I randomed Terran, there's a ton of things I've encountered all of which force me into scouting just because I'm almost as confused how to open as they are.
The way you're making it sound is that Random players have a hidden map hack that completely eliminates their need to scout for all ins, and cheeses because they automatically know what their opponent is going to do.
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
As a random player, when zerg I've played against:
1) Gateway in main into expand builds
2) Blind FFE builds/fast scout FFE
3) Pylon in base followed by FFE
4) Pylon in base followed by nexus
5) Proxy gates
6) Gateway in main into 4 gate
7) Gateway in main into some kind of all in
Etc, etc. It's not like random players have some magical ability to know what their opponent is doing.
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On August 21 2012 07:56 jinorazi wrote:
this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen)
That was always so much fun It even happened in tourney games sometimes albeit rarely.
Also it's quite awesome to see Nony show up. If he says there isn't a direct counter to his build I'm far more inclined to believe him than the nobodys who are complaining against randoms. His build really is super solid, and then OP still attempts to poke holes in his reply and fails. Lol, this thread is hilarious xD.
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Sweden126 Posts
On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:You missed a line here: Show nested quote +there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast.
Well, if you know what you're opponent ISN'T doing at the start of the game (since in PvR it's safe to assume that he won't be FFE'ing) and the only other reliable opening is some sort of gateway expo then you can probably find something that counters that gateway expo or he could possibly do some sort of 1base allin which with proper scouting probably wont be too hard to hold.
If say, 1gate expo or 2gate sentry expo always is "the zerg can never get an advantage here no matter what build he does if I am playing just as well", then it makes no sense that players like Puzzle, Parting, Naniwa, Seed etc don't actually always go for said opening. Since SC2 is such a fluid game, I'd bet on that whatever you do, if the opponent knows what you're doing from the start (since you're not FFE'ing) you can eliminate a lot of the possible builds from the list before even sending your first drones to mine-
Well, actually on the topic, it doesn't actually feel like most of the players playing random do so for the said "advantage" of playing random but for the enjoyment of playing all 3 races. Maybe then it would just be better to show the players race in the beginning/in the loading screen as (Random - Zerg) or something.
And by the way, people saying that you should not know your opponents race at all before the game just haven't got a lot of experience playing. I wouldn't play the game if every game I had to go for a 3gate robo expo because I had no idea what risks I could afford since I didn't know what race I was up against. Say, you go nexus first into partings 3nexus build vs a terran. You'll die vs any aggression before the 8-9 minute mark, since that's when you get your warpgates into production mode. But if you did not know that it was a terran (say that races were hidden) that you were up against, would you want to go for a nexus first, knowing that it could be a pvp and you'd just die vs the first zealot/stalker?
I'd say that you wouldn't, and knowing what race the opponent is actually gives me the chance in the loading screen to take some time to figure out what I want to do in said game. For example, I'd definately go triple nexus vs a terran on Ohana, while the same map vs zerg I'd go for some sort of robo play.
TL;DR: There is no "build order solution" that P can do to completely crush PvR. P would be broken in that case. Random players race should show in the loading screen, since people play random for the enjoyment and not for the inheritant advantages of playing random.
PS. If someone actually replies to the arguments for shown races with "lol 9 scout", I am so sorry.
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On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better
To give you an example, I went to your latest streaming session and found a PvZ on Cloud Kingdom.
You went 2g expo with no probe scout, then you made a 7:00ish pushout with 2 sentries and 5 zealots and turned around upon seeing a spine crawler, then you proceeded to check for a third in the normal third location, then you went home and made 2 additional sentries (for a total of 6 now) and a robo at 7:51.
Are you claiming this isnt abusable by a hatch hatch (2nd hatch hidden location) pool into ridiculously hardcore droning and muta-ling play, with just a single spine at his front at 7min?
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On August 21 2012 08:50 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:56 jinorazi wrote:
this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen) That was always so much fun It even happened in tourney games sometimes albeit rarely. Also it's quite awesome to see Nony show up. His build really is super solid, and then OP still attempts to poke holes in his reply and fails. Lol, this thread is hilarious xD.
Someone did that against Jaedong in WCG. Incidentally, it didn't work out too well.
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On August 21 2012 08:54 droken wrote:
TL;DR: There is no "build order solution" that P can do to completely crush PvR. P would be broken in that case. Random players race should show in the loading screen, since people play random for the enjoyment and not for the inheritant advantages of playing random.
1. Same could be said for any build in any match up. Why do you feel entitled to one? Game would be broken if there was a BO solution to EVERY race as Protoss.
2. Your opinion. And it's wrong. Back in the early days I highly doubt Gumiho and GuineaPig were playing random competitively just for the lulz.
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I wonder what these people would do when facing a random player in tournaments? Moan and bitch or adapt?
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On August 21 2012 08:57 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:50 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 07:56 jinorazi wrote:
this reminds me, i loved switching race in bw the last 3 seconds of countdown and throw my opponent off XD
(the race change does not update on opponent's screen) That was always so much fun It even happened in tourney games sometimes albeit rarely. Also it's quite awesome to see Nony show up. His build really is super solid, and then OP still attempts to poke holes in his reply and fails. Lol, this thread is hilarious xD. Someone did that against Jaedong in WCG. Incidentally, it didn't work out too well.
to be fair JD was playing against the computer
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On August 21 2012 08:54 droken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. Well, if you know what you're opponent ISN'T doing at the start of the game (since in PvR it's safe to assume that he won't be FFE'ing) and the only other reliable opening is some sort of gateway expo then you can probably find something that counters that gateway expo or he could possibly do some sort of 1base allin which with proper scouting probably wont be too hard to hold. If say, 1gate expo or 2gate sentry expo always is "the zerg can never get an advantage here no matter what build he does if I am playing just as well", then it makes no sense that players like Puzzle, Parting, Naniwa, Seed etc don't actually always go for said opening. Since SC2 is such a fluid game, I'd bet on that whatever you do, if the opponent knows what you're doing from the start (since you're not FFE'ing) you can eliminate a lot of the possible builds from the list before even sending your first drones to mine- Well, actually on the topic, it doesn't actually feel like most of the players playing random do so for the said "advantage" of playing random but for the enjoyment of playing all 3 races. Maybe then it would just be better to show the players race in the beginning/in the loading screen as (Random - Zerg) or something. And by the way, people saying that you should not know your opponents race at all before the game just haven't got a lot of experience playing. I wouldn't play the game if every game I had to go for a 3gate robo expo because I had no idea what risks I could afford since I didn't know what race I was up against. Say, you go nexus first into partings 3nexus build vs a terran. You'll die vs any aggression before the 8-9 minute mark, since that's when you get your warpgates into production mode. But if you did not know that it was a terran (say that races were hidden) that you were up against, would you want to go for a nexus first, knowing that it could be a pvp and you'd just die vs the first zealot/stalker? I'd say that you wouldn't, and knowing what race the opponent is actually gives me the chance in the loading screen to take some time to figure out what I want to do in said game. For example, I'd definately go triple nexus vs a terran on Ohana, while the same map vs zerg I'd go for some sort of robo play. TL;DR: There is no "build order solution" that P can do to completely crush PvR. P would be broken in that case. Random players race should show in the loading screen, since people play random for the enjoyment and not for the inheritant advantages of playing random. PS. If someone actually replies to the arguments for shown races with "lol 9 scout", I am so sorry.
The way it is now both players play at a disadvantage when Random is involved.
Random players have to be ready to play any one of 3 match ups when their opponent's race is revealed, and their opponent has to do the same thing. The only window where the Random player has the advantage is the time between the two players spawning and the time of the first scout. That is the only window where the Random player has the advantage.
The disadvantages of playing Random go without saying, lack of experience with mechanics, timings, metagame shifts, or even game sense in a match up all from being forced to learn 9 match ups instead of 3.
My point in bringing all of this back up is that from my point of view, rather than Random players having an advantage just for rolling Random, the fact that my opponent doesn't know what race I am in the first 2 minutes evens the playing field.
What you're suggesting would just punish players for playing Random because they would be still playing with all of the disadvantages that comes from learning Random without any of the current gains that off set that disadvantage.
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On August 21 2012 08:56 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better To give you an example, I went to your latest streaming session and found a PvZ on Cloud Kingdom. You went 2g expo with no probe scout, then you made a 7:00ish pushout with 2 sentries and 5 zealots and turned around upon seeing a spine crawler, then you proceeded to check for a third in the normal third location, then you went home and made 2 additional sentries (for a total of 6 now) and a robo at 7:51. Are you claiming this isnt abusable by a hatch hatch (2nd hatch hidden location) pool into ridiculously hardcore droning and muta-ling play, with just a single spine at his front at 7min?
Wait, so you're saying if they hide an expansion and Nony doesn't see it he'll be behind? What a novel idea!
On an unrelated note, I play random because of the advantage I feel like it gives me. I can go hatch first in ZvZ and it forces protoss players to play more safely against me in PvZ. I think this is the inherent advantage you get at the penalty of having to learn all 9 matchups. If it really made such a huge difference, every pro would play random for the advantage they got. Just because you can't FFE as protoss doesn't mean you are behind, it just means that you weren't quite optimal. 3gate expand strictly speaking isn't as good, but it's not bad to be forced to do it against a zerg player.
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On August 21 2012 09:20 nkr wrote:
I wonder what these people would do when facing a random player in tournaments? Moan and bitch or adapt?
The deeper you get into a tournament the less likely you're going to see a random player. This is where the oft-touted disadvantage of not focusing on one skillset starts to become a serious problem.
However, everyone has to start somewhere. A lot of people start practicing on the ladder. Practice against R players on the ladder turns out to be comparatively less worthwhile no matter what skill level you're at.
There's actually a whole host of other problems that could hypothetically turn up if R players actually made it into tournies. Like if the game drops after a few seconds: do they have to play the same race? Do they get to start as R again? If they can start as R again, how do we know they aren't dropping on purpose to force their way into playing the race they'd actually prefer to play right at that moment?
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
The opponent doesn't know, he assumes. And you imply that this is so problematic that random as an entire race must be nerfed to the point theres no reason to even play it bar portraits. Why can't you understand that this is utterly irrelevant at higher skill levels where random is virtually non-existent?
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On August 21 2012 09:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. The opponent doesn't know, he assumes. And you imply that this is so problematic that random as an entire race must be nerfed to the point theres no reason to even play it bar portraits. Why can't you understand that this is utterly irrelevant at higher skill levels where random is virtually non-existent?
It does exist on high levels.
I remember Polt playing vs random on KR ladder (when he was ranked #1 for many weeks), typing chat in how it's bad practice and is upsetting to play against, after getting like 3-4 randoms in a streaming session.
IM-MVP and IM-Happy were both known for playing random on ladder, assumingly for practice reasons.
Personally, when playing vs Random, I try to politely ask if they mind telling me their race, if they don't, simply scout 10/11 supply.
I don't think it's the worst practice ever, but it certainly isn't ideal.
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On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
No. Your random opponents cannot make assumption that you won't be FFEing. Yes likelihood for that is lower, but they cannot assume that (If they assume they are taking a big risk). As a random player you will be facing a full spectrum of openings from your opponents. As you have already read from this thread some dislike playing against randoms and do blind cheeses/all-ins (early pools, proxies, etc) even if some of these strategies are usually not viable against certain races. Some will start with greedy economy builds such as nexus/CC first. Some will start FFE's too. Forge also gives you an opportunity to cannonrush if you see a juicy opportunity. Some do a safe opening and choose their strategy based on scouting information. Some just throw a dice and assume that their random opponent has a certain race or races and base their build on that.
As said: As random player you may be facing almost any opening. You cannot assume that your opponent is not doing a certain build, such as FFE. You have to scout and/or prepare for different possibilities (even illogical ones). And as both aggressive cheese and greedy economy cheese are quite common (not too common thankfully), neglecting scouting (both for proxies and opponents location) easily throws the random player behind if either of these happen. I personally often feel that I play too careful when checking proxies and what my opponents are doing (much more careful than when I pick a race) and lose mining time by doing so. And when I check replays often the opponents just play greedy and 'cut corners' as much as possible.
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I like how some of you guys are talking about random in tournaments as if you'd ever be a contender and win a tournament or something.
Notice that players that actually contend to win tournaments aren't bothered by random players.
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I usually meet nice random players who tell me their race, most of the time if they don't its someone who's going to cheese.
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Australia189 Posts
This thread is great "Random and its place on the ladder" everyone meantions professional tournament results, gg tl.
If someone chooses random and their race isn't shown, then my race shouldn't be shown either, fair?
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On August 21 2012 09:45 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 09:40 rd wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. The opponent doesn't know, he assumes. And you imply that this is so problematic that random as an entire race must be nerfed to the point theres no reason to even play it bar portraits. Why can't you understand that this is utterly irrelevant at higher skill levels where random is virtually non-existent? It does exist on high levels. I remember Polt playing vs random on KR ladder (when he was ranked #1 for many weeks), typing chat in how it's bad practice and is upsetting to play against, after getting like 3-4 randoms in a streaming session. IM-MVP and IM-Happy were both known for playing random on ladder, assumingly for practice reasons. Personally, when playing vs Random, I try to politely ask if they mind telling me their race, if they don't, simply scout 10/11 supply. I don't think it's the worst practice ever, but it certainly isn't ideal.
Virtually non-existent, i.e. very, very rare. Less than 1 in 20 games unless you happen to chain queue the same guy multiple times.
I never thought of players at the top of the ladder on a main race playing random, but I'm fine with it as they're essentially gambling their rating away provided their off-races aren't significantly better than their opponent's, which in a perfect GM world they shouldn't be. Also not sure why there are complaints about practice on the ladder as it's counter-intuitive to it's intended design -- not that it can't be an excellent way to practice.
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Isn't the simplest solution to all the complaints about cheese and randoms just don't leave the game against randoms? Especially since that unless you're in masters, Sc2 won't show a loss on your record and ladder points don't have much meaning. Also, the games mostly for entertainment (and some self benefit if you're trying to improve).... if you don't enjoy or see a benefit of playing against certain people or certain styles or certain races, then don't. Just leave. And go on to the next game.
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On August 21 2012 10:03 nicknack wrote:
This thread is great "Random and its place on the ladder" everyone meantions professional tournament results, gg tl.
If someone chooses random and their race isn't shown, then my race shouldn't be shown either, fair?
People are talking about tournament results because people keep saying that Random has an unfair advantage.
If playing Random was actually advantageous for the Random player, people would have already used that advantage in tournaments. The fact is, Random is actually disadvantageous because of the difficulty involved with playing all 3 races.
Long story short. Random doesnt give the Random player a real advantage. What it does is force an earlier scout and a non-gimmicky safer build from the opponent.
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On August 21 2012 06:05 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 05:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's a selection that benefits you with a particular advantage. If random is an actual advantage then play it yourself. If you don't want to play random , that's you choice don't bitch that other people made the choice to play it. You are given an equal as advantage to take advantage of this scenario. You must accept that different build orders are required as opposed to simply whining you can't do the only one opening you've practiced per matchup. Some of us don't have time to spend on learning all matchups and like being in the league we're in so that's not a solution. Your "tough love" standpoint doesn't really address the OP's complaint either; the main point as I read it was that Protoss gets shafted more so by PvR than any other race because although Terran is always going to place a barracks and Zerg is always going to place a spawning pool, P has a bidirectional choice when it comes to their first building and both are played differently and come with their own pros and cons, the pros of one keeping you on more equal footing vs a particular race than the other option. If you see what I'm getting at you might say learn a gate-expand for PvZ, but thats total bs becuase I, along with other P players, believe that the best option in PvZ is the FFE not the gate-expand but that is not a safe option by any means in PvR.
What you said isn't relevant. "not having time to spend on learning all the matchups" doesn't even make sense unless you're a progamer. League you're in? I don't even understand your point.
Protoss gets shafted more is not an issue either. It just means when Protoss has to face a random player, it must adapt to a different style of play than if it were playing vs Terran, Protoss, or Zerg.
What you "believe" is the best answer is the only relevant answer, but it's still a stupid one. So vs random, you're less likely to pick the optimal build order. Since when in the world is complaining you didn't pick the most optimal build order even a remotely valid argument?
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On August 21 2012 09:36 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 09:20 nkr wrote:
I wonder what these people would do when facing a random player in tournaments? Moan and bitch or adapt? The deeper you get into a tournament the less likely you're going to see a random player. This is where the oft-touted disadvantage of not focusing on one skillset starts to become a serious problem. However, everyone has to start somewhere. A lot of people start practicing on the ladder. Practice against R players on the ladder turns out to be comparatively less worthwhile no matter what skill level you're at. There's actually a whole host of other problems that could hypothetically turn up if R players actually made it into tournies. Like if the game drops after a few seconds: do they have to play the same race? Do they get to start as R again? If they can start as R again, how do we know they aren't dropping on purpose to force their way into playing the race they'd actually prefer to play right at that moment?
You could argue the same with a lot of maps (eg. Metalopolis when it was played for Zerg) - there are small positional imbalances on many maps that pros know about. It's all about trust. Just like a lot of pros trust that people aren't streamcheating when they play them on playhem daily and stuff.
Also if they're gunning for a certain race, doing this disconnect thing increases their chance from 1/3 to 5/9. Good odds, but not going to win you a tournament there. (I'm presuming they can't do it more than once before it becomes suspicious)
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On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
No they cannot. I play random and I'd say nearly 33% of my Protoss opponents still forge fe. They simply go Nexus before forge.
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On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow.
I feel like you just don't have much experience using gate expands or you just have really weak opponents. After practicing some gateway expands and reviewing the replays, it was very clear that the dynamics of the early game has shifted drastically compared to FFE. Gateway expands generally mean that the zergs has to react to you in the early game instead of the mid game. Not the other way around. Zerg can't just do a build that counters all gateway expands because no such build exists. He should be trying to figure out his response to builds as diverse as 4gate nexus cancel, super fast tech such as double stargate or DT expand, or economic 1gate expands. So I don't understand how your random opponents are countering every single one of these builds by only knowing you are gateway expanding.
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Hang on, let me get this right. There are people that complain about playing vs random?
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On August 21 2012 11:04 MrBitter wrote:
Hang on, let me get this right. There are people that complain about playing vs random?
only cause the cube is so much better looking than their own race icons
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On August 21 2012 11:04 MrBitter wrote:
Hang on, let me get this right. There are people that complain about playing vs random?
Hard to believe isn't it?
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On August 21 2012 09:58 nGBeast wrote:
I usually meet nice random players who tell me their race, most of the time if they don't its someone who's going to cheese.
I play random and will always tell someone who asks what race I am at the start but you would be amazed how many think you are lying to them.
I don't know about other players opinions but I play random because I enjoy all 3 races and like the change of pace you get from not knowing which one you will be, so to me some solution like showing your race on the loading screen would be fine. I still get to play as random and you know what race I am.
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GSL level qq.
GM level ego.
Master league theory crafting
Bronze level skill.
Pretty much describes all these threads popping up.
How do u all spend so much time posting and not get better?
really wish tl shows the league like bnet. so we can see how scrubby these qqers are
But then I guess they will resort to levelling seeing how insecure they are about a video game and care so much about their ladder points.
Lol. "need practice" "not real game". If u play lots of random, let's just say u r not winning anything soon.
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8748 Posts
On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here.
You are so worried about a counter build to gateway opening being discovered and used against you that you won't use it while it remains a viable build? That makes no sense to me. What builds are you doing now and why are you so confident counters will never be discovered against them?
I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter.
I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build.
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On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build.
If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
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Well i didn't read the whole thread obviously but to answer the OP, when i see random i just 1 rax FE or gaz 13.
Even if it's a zerg i just tell myself that he is random, no way i can lose in macro game.
Of course sometimes there are random players who tell their race, but you mainly find them in master league.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
...Go on...
There are no purely random players on this planet who are as good as Stephano in ZvP. Not to mention, no random player would come remotely close to his MMR. There is pretty much no reason to debate what any top level zerg can or can't do because it's not a frequent (if at all) scenario that Stephano ladders as random.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Now now, first you go find me a Stephano level RANDOM zerg player on ladder.
Plus btw, if you read the title and his post, this is about ladder discussion not some tourney issue.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
And by "somewhat decent" you mean best in the world, which is basically what Stephano is, or close to it.
And when you're that good you can win without abusing your opponent's opening, you can win just by playing your own style.
Imagine that.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Holy crap you are not going to get a person of higher skill to debate this with than Nony. So now he's here PLEASE don't confine your argument to "nuh-uh you're wrong" with absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever. Nobody who posts is going to be better placed to give you a good analysis of the situation than this guy, so take your head out of your ass and CONSIDER what he says, at least to the point of actually trying to use some reason to disagree with him. This level of close-mindedness is utterly stupid.
Edit: Guess I fell for a troll, but leaving this here in case anybody genuinely adopts this attitude, because quite a few posters in this thread have been close.
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Now now now, this is just ridiculous. You're losing all credibility with comments like that. Stop trolling please, it is not funny anymore...
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
Holy crap you are not going to get a person of higher skill to debate this with than Nony. So now he's here PLEASE don't confine your argument to "nuh-uh you're wrong" with absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever. Nobody who posts is going to be better placed to give you a good analysis of the situation than this guy, so take your head out of your ass and CONSIDER what he says, at least to the point of actually trying to use some reason to disagree with him. This level of close-mindedness is utterly stupid.
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On August 21 2012 12:26 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. Now now now, this is just ridiculous. You're losing all credibility with comments like that. Stop trolling please, it is not funny anymore...
Wait... this guy had credibility?
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On August 21 2012 12:26 Kasu wrote:Holy crap you are not going to get a person of higher skill to debate this with than Nony. So now he's here PLEASE don't confine your argument to "nuh-uh you're wrong" with absolutely no fucking evidence whatsoever. Nobody who posts is going to be better placed to give you a good analysis of the situation than this guy, so take your head out of your ass and CONSIDER what he says, at least to the point of actually trying to use some reason to disagree with him. This level of close-mindedness is utterly stupid.
Edit: Guess I fell for a troll, but leaving this here in case anybody genuinely adopts this attitude, because quite a few posters in this thread have been close.
On August 21 2012 08:56 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better To give you an example, I went to your latest streaming session and found a PvZ on Cloud Kingdom. You went 2g expo with no probe scout, then you made a 7:00ish pushout with 2 sentries and 5 zealots and turned around upon seeing a spine crawler, then you proceeded to check for a third in the normal third location, then you went home and made 2 additional sentries (for a total of 6 now) and a robo at 7:51. Are you claiming this isnt abusable by a hatch hatch (2nd hatch hidden location) pool into ridiculously hardcore droning and muta-ling play, with just a single spine at his front at 7min?
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Scout on 6. Unless you get really unlucky on a map like TDA, you'll know what race they are before it's time to commit to a Gateway/Forge/Nexus.
I always tell my race if the opponent asks.
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On August 21 2012 12:32 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:26 freakhill wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. Now now now, this is just ridiculous. You're losing all credibility with comments like that. Stop trolling please, it is not funny anymore... Wait... this guy had credibility?
How would credibility make any point I make any less or more relevant?
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On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way.
I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way.
Edit* You know the opening
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On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening?
You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario.
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When I see Random, I think Cheese, all in play, and no skill outside of those traits.
On a 4 player map, it is VERY hard to guess what race your opponent is, and prepare accordingly for the ensuing cheese, until you scout the race, and the cheese which is being prepared. On 2 player maps, the cheese is even more agressive - I sometimes will scout with my 7 probe to get the race proper, so I can take appropriate action immediately.
As such, I give Random players no ground or respect- I simply cannot be bothered to play against an opponent that cannot even decide what race he wants to be, and moreso they have no desire to learn the minute intricacies related to a specific race. I just leave the match, Random's are not worth my time whatsoever. They can have the points, it's their reward for being a waste of time.
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Nony just won this thread. I don't know how people are still arguing about this. The people hating on random players will not listen to any argument, regardless of how good it is.
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On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 06:45 JDub wrote:
People are blowing this way out of proportion. Only a tiny fraction of people play random, and being random gives you only a slight advantage in the early game. If you are Zerg or Terran, 15 hatch or 14p/16h and 1 rax fe work in all matchups. I know what you are thinking: "omg, they are not always optimal, I have to scout slightly earlier, I'm economically behind it's unfair!!" -- please, you can more than make up for that slight disadvantage by outplaying your opponent.
As for Protoss players, either learn a gateway expand for PvZ (this is the best solution -- if Nony can win with it on ladder at his level, so can you), or just open gate-first and 4-gate against Zerg and play standard against T and P. Oh no, that means 1/3 of your games against Random players may be a worthless 4-gate PvZ. Seeing as how Random players are <10% of players, that means you'll have to waste about 6 minutes of your time in 3% of your games on ladder.
Definitely worth 38 pages of QQ. Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario.
No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; you're trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable.
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"they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play"
If they chose any race, it would affect you and how you play. It sounds to me that you're just upset that you can't take short cuts. If you're so concerned with being able to predict your opponents opener so that you can feel safe, you need to send out an early scout against a random player. It's as simple as that.
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On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; it's trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable.
You dont seem to understand what abuse means. In my example, how could the risk not pay off?
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On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; you're trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable.
That's why we see so many top Korean Protosses rely on gateway expands as their reliable build and only FFE when they want to "metagame"?
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On August 21 2012 13:07 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; it's trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable. You dont seem to understand what abuse means. In my example, how could the risk not pay off?
By losing the hidden third because you have no units for one. Nony has spent quite a lot of time making his build quite solid. A troll who just joined tl today isn't going to convince anyone that it's not a viable build with poor theorycrafting like that.
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On August 21 2012 13:16 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:07 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:
[quote]
No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; it's trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable. You dont seem to understand what abuse means. In my example, how could the risk not pay off? By losing the hidden third because you have no units for one. Nony has spent quite a lot of time making his build quite solid. A troll who just joined tl today isn't going to convince anyone that it's not a viable build with poor theorycrafting like that.
Why am I even bothering posting at all. Too many brain-damaged noobs here. Consider this my resignation.
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On August 21 2012 13:18 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:16 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 13:07 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:
[quote]
the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o
there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; it's trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable. You dont seem to understand what abuse means. In my example, how could the risk not pay off? By losing the hidden third because you have no units for one. Nony has spent quite a lot of time making his build quite solid. A troll who just joined tl today isn't going to convince anyone that it's not a viable build with poor theorycrafting like that. Why am I even bothering posting at all. Too many brain-damaged noobs here. Consider this my resignation.
And TL became a slightly better place to be
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On August 21 2012 13:18 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:16 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 13:07 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 13:03 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 21 2012 12:44 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:42 BearStorm wrote:On August 21 2012 12:16 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 12:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:
[quote]
the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o
there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. I've played against people who know to expect gateway openings from me. In fact, they know to expect 2gate expand from me so they know I won't be aggressive while on one base and they know my production directly after expanding is limited. I still haven't seen a direct counter. No, I'm not playing against Stephano and shit, but neither are you. And you are worried that a random player who plays ZvP 1/9 of the time is going to come up with a direct counter. I've gone 3-0 against zergs on ladder doing identical builds up to 7:30 game time. I beat zergs that blindly do things that would be stupid as hell against any other protoss but neatly work against my exact build. If your opponents were somewhat decent (e.g. stephano) there is no way they would be able to lose if they abuse your opening in an intelligent way. I didn't know Stephano would be considered "somewhat decent". Makes me wonder who I can call "good". Also the thing about safe openings is that they are really hard to outright counter. You might be able to take risks and get ahead, but that's the nature of any opening. So how can you claim there is "no way they would be able to lose"? Why don't you explain how you would abuse the opening? That is unless you are claiming you don't know how to abuse it in an intelligent way. Do you even know the opening? You can call whoever you consider good good. I quoted the post where I explained an example of a way to abuse. As far as your stating that all openings can be abused, I agree, it's just that FFE has a better worst case scenario. No, that was not a good example of abuse. Hiding a base and crossing your fingers hoping it works out is not a good way to abuse any build; it's trying to exploit a solid build by doing something really exploitable. Taking a risk and being greedy like that can pay off, but if it's unwarranted then it just ends up being a bad play, even if it does last long enough to pay off. And FFE having a better worst case scenario than gateway expands is highly debateable. You dont seem to understand what abuse means. In my example, how could the risk not pay off? By losing the hidden third because you have no units for one. Nony has spent quite a lot of time making his build quite solid. A troll who just joined tl today isn't going to convince anyone that it's not a viable build with poor theorycrafting like that. Why am I even bothering posting at all. Too many brain-damaged noobs here. Consider this my resignation.
shoo! troll. this is no place for you.
i dont think you're actually a troll but your last comment was appropriately ironic.
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On August 21 2012 12:54 Grimmyman123 wrote:
When I see Random, I think Cheese, all in play, and no skill outside of those traits.
On a 4 player map, it is VERY hard to guess what race your opponent is, and prepare accordingly for the ensuing cheese, until you scout the race, and the cheese which is being prepared. On 2 player maps, the cheese is even more agressive - I sometimes will scout with my 7 probe to get the race proper, so I can take appropriate action immediately.
As such, I give Random players no ground or respect- I simply cannot be bothered to play against an opponent that cannot even decide what race he wants to be, and moreso they have no desire to learn the minute intricacies related to a specific race. I just leave the match, Random's are not worth my time whatsoever. They can have the points, it's their reward for being a waste of time.
Man you sound really ignorant.
So I guess Gumiho (only person to qualify for GSL as random) has no respect and can't play the game?
Only reason I play random is because of three reasons:
1) I don't play this game in hopes of being a professional.. so I just play casually.
2) I don't prefer a particular race, I like ALL of em.
3) I can appreciate watching all matchups during tournaments, because I've experienced them all.
_____
I played Terran only in Brood War, but I realized that I never watched ZvP or Z/P mirror matches in Proleague or OSL because if Terran wasn't on my screen I didn't see the point of watching Toss/Zerg. I missed out on a lot of quality games not involving Terran.
I always enjoy when people leave the game instantly because it just means instant MMR increase.
___________
*EDIT* Blizzard should just stop all the tears and butt hurt whiners, and make random show their race when the game starts, but still show the "dice" to let their opponent know that it's a random player. That way when they lose to random they have no excuse for when they get owned.
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"Only reason I play random is because of three reasons:"
why? piss all the gamma police off that's why.
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To be completely honest, I mainly play Random because I think I'm better than others.
The fact that people get angry solely because I'm Random just makes the feeling better.
So I continue playing Random, and continue owning nerds.
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Have 0 problem as a Terran. Just 14 depot wall off and scout them. Normally wouldn't wall vs t, but has the extra advantage that they don't know if you took gas.
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Sweden126 Posts
On August 21 2012 15:21 TRaFFiC wrote:
Have 0 problem as a Terran. Just 14 depot wall off and scout them. Normally wouldn't wall vs t, but has the extra advantage that they don't know if you took gas.
But that is as a terran. What do you think happens if you don't know your playing a PvP? PvP has been so far at least accepted as the most coinflip matchup, and not knowing it's a PvP from the start just makes it more of a coinflip. I actually think that it would be better if the dice showed so we all could see we were facing a random player, but showed the race since all the people here obviously play random just for the sake of playing all three races and as such, they wouldn't mind showing their own race in the beginning. It would save a lot of tears playing the ladder.
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On August 21 2012 15:27 droken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 15:21 TRaFFiC wrote:
Have 0 problem as a Terran. Just 14 depot wall off and scout them. Normally wouldn't wall vs t, but has the extra advantage that they don't know if you took gas. But that is as a terran. What do you think happens if you don't know your playing a PvP? PvP has been so far at least accepted as the most coinflip matchup, and not knowing it's a PvP from the start just makes it more of a coinflip. I actually think that it would be better if the dice showed so we all could see we were facing a random player, but showed the race since all the people here obviously play random just for the sake of playing all three races and as such, they wouldn't mind showing their own race in the beginning. It would save a lot of tears playing the ladder.
Scout at 9, always scout at 9 if you're paranoid.
I don't think random players have enough advantage to warrant a change. There was random in Sc1, and Wc3, I really don't see it as a big deal.
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On August 21 2012 13:43 Silentness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 12:54 Grimmyman123 wrote:
When I see Random, I think Cheese, all in play, and no skill outside of those traits.
On a 4 player map, it is VERY hard to guess what race your opponent is, and prepare accordingly for the ensuing cheese, until you scout the race, and the cheese which is being prepared. On 2 player maps, the cheese is even more agressive - I sometimes will scout with my 7 probe to get the race proper, so I can take appropriate action immediately.
As such, I give Random players no ground or respect- I simply cannot be bothered to play against an opponent that cannot even decide what race he wants to be, and moreso they have no desire to learn the minute intricacies related to a specific race. I just leave the match, Random's are not worth my time whatsoever. They can have the points, it's their reward for being a waste of time. Man you sound really ignorant. So I guess Gumiho (only person to qualify for GSL as random) has no respect and can't play the game? Only reason I play random is because of three reasons: 1) I don't play this game in hopes of being a professional.. so I just play casually. 2) I don't prefer a particular race, I like ALL of em. 3) I can appreciate watching all matchups during tournaments, because I've experienced them all. _____ I played Terran only in Brood War, but I realized that I never watched ZvP or Z/P mirror matches in Proleague or OSL because if Terran wasn't on my screen I didn't see the point of watching Toss/Zerg. I missed out on a lot of quality games not involving Terran. I always enjoy when people leave the game instantly because it just means instant MMR increase. ___________ *EDIT* Blizzard should just stop all the tears and butt hurt whiners, and make random show their race when the game starts, but still show the "dice" to let their opponent know that it's a random player. That way when they lose to random they have no excuse for when they get owned.
Sound? No, I am a bit ignorant. I'll admit that.
Re: Gumiho - could you imagine how good he'd if he picked one race and really hashed it out?
You have good reasons for your play. I'll hand that.
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Where does this overarching stereotype of Random players as 2gate/2rax/6pool whores come from? I played all 3 races in BW and I wanted to learn all the new mechanics in SC2 so I started off as Random. I couldn't choose a favorite race so I continued to play Random. I rarely cheese when I play Random because people expect it of you, as evidenced by this thread. Everyone sends out a scout against random by 9, your only hope is 4 player maps. People relying on these cheeses coupled with the miniscule "advantage" of Random usually won't be able to progress too far on ladder... So if you're one of these people claiming that ladder is strictly for your practice, therefore you don't want to play vs Randoms, you most likely won't meet many Randoms, and they probably won't be a completely cheese oriented player.
MVP plays Random in KR GM and nobody seems to balk. Gumiho started off in Code A as a random player and Guineapig played Random in the GSL as well, no body there seems to mind, let alone cry about it. There was also a ST player who played Random in Code A I believe. None of them are still Random because it's actually much harder than playing a single race. There aren't even any pros outside of MorroW who race pick, because it's much harder.
TLDR, stop complaining about Random, it's not advantageous.
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On August 21 2012 15:27 droken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 15:21 TRaFFiC wrote:
Have 0 problem as a Terran. Just 14 depot wall off and scout them. Normally wouldn't wall vs t, but has the extra advantage that they don't know if you took gas. But that is as a terran. What do you think happens if you don't know your playing a PvP? PvP has been so far at least accepted as the most coinflip matchup, and not knowing it's a PvP from the start just makes it more of a coinflip. I actually think that it would be better if the dice showed so we all could see we were facing a random player, but showed the race since all the people here obviously play random just for the sake of playing all three races and as such, they wouldn't mind showing their own race in the beginning. It would save a lot of tears playing the ladder.
Definitely harder for protoss, but you can just pylon scout and adjust your build a bit. Vs zerg you can gateway expand into fast gateway pressure (Naniwa style). I agree it's annoying, but if you're willing to play random, it's an advantage you should have.
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whats with this metagame bullshit people using for this debate. i played a zerg other day and i massed marine after 14cc. zerg's reply: wtf you dont open hellion? fucking noob. leaves game. W.T.F this guy actually pissed me off like no other bm ever because of his astounding arrogance and ignorance.
do what is fun, do whatever and make it work. improve your mechanics to make stuff work and not rely on build orders to win. this is how you improve, not perfecting a build. embrace cheese, learn to love crisis management, it makes you a better player.
and whats with people arguing over probe timing, chronoboost and other bs. when to send/make probes, 12, 13, or 14 gate, how many chronoboosts used aren't going to determine the outcome of the game. if you truly believe this you're full of yourself. this is only to optimize your play, not to win.
make gate opening viable against zerg instead of crying about it. its simple aint it?
note: gateway. you can do whatever afterwards, expand, stargate, 4gate, mothership, colossus, templar tech, warp prism harass, w/e. or take the chance and ffe anyways, who gives a damn.
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I played protoss at high master level, but after having played them so much i felt that the game got a bit boring for me so i switched to random and got put in diamond. I love it. Now it is more exciting to press quickmatch, knowing that i can get my weakest matchups, or my strongest.
Also as one poster above said, i can enjoy watching all matchups in tournaments if i want to. Instead of just watching protoss games, like before my switch to random.
I think that everyone who isn´t playing the game to become a pro should try out random.
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I know many people do not agree, but I almost view palying random as cheating, as it gives an unfair advantage.
Say two people are of exact equal skill in PvP. If its PvR and the random rolls P, they will win more than 50% even though they have equal skill. That does not seem fair. At all. Same goes for all the matches. Its just an unfair advantage.
It seems that its generally accepted that the race a random gets would be told to the opponent. (I think at least). This would have no downside for the people playing random purely for fun, and for the people playing Random because it gives an advantage, well imo your kinda cheating, so deal with it.
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On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone.
yes it makes the game more boring because im practicing at a suboptimal level when I play against randoms.
If you dont realise how much an opening does in terms of advantage/disadvantage, you have no reason whatsoever to post here...
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On August 21 2012 19:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:48 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:40 Tobberoth wrote:
Your arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter IF you can play a certain way vs all races, the point is that you don't WANT to because it doesn't improve your game. There's is depth in SC2 in how you have different styles for all matchups, and that grows from the start of the game. You can scout on 9, sure, but there's no guarantee you'll scout your opponent fast enough to decide on opening build on some maps, so you'll have to scout even earlier, which messes up your economy.
Basically, your whole argument is something along the lines of "Random is a fourth race, you have to play differently vs randoms or you're doing it wrong", when my point is there's no fucking need, just have the race show up on the loading screen. There's no con to that, and massive benefit. Hell, the opponent shouldn't even have to know you're playing random, he's just having another normal game.
If the information advantage is so extremely minor, like you guys are saying, what's the argument for NOT removing it, when it makes the game more boring for your opponents? Ah finally the complaints. If you're below grandmaster, then you have more than enough things to work on that "wasting your time" beating a cheese with a highly defensive standard opener is going to help you. Scouting on 9 is not to decide your opener but to scout the cheese that most people seem to expect. And yes, random should be treated like a 4th race. The massive benefit is, in essence, a 4TH RACE without creating one. Just because you don't like to have to think doesn't mean that Blizz should get rid of a portion of the game. The information advantage is minor but it exists. It doesn't make the game more boring because, apparently, you have literally no clue how to deal with random. Learning how to deal with random should be a goal of yours and then all of a sudden, more fun! More strategies to have to think of. More openings to deal with. More new situations to be in. Random is great and should be left alone. yes it makes the game more boring because im practicing at a suboptimal level when I play against randoms. If you dont realise how much an opening does in terms of advantage/disadvantage, you have no reason whatsoever to post here...
And if you don't realize how much more time it takes to practice 9 matchups instead of 3, then you have no reason whatsoever to post here...
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On August 20 2012 17:59 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:53 Tobberoth wrote:
Which is why a lot of players, including IIRC some pros, who simply leave games vs randoms because it's not part of their traning "learning" to play a matchup with a suboptimal opening. If you're a pro, then yes it makes perfect sense to leave vs randoms. There are no randoms good enough to be professional. The pros are playing for money and need to get better against only the races they play against. Are you anywhere near pro? I highly doubt it, therefore play against random, have some fun with it. If you crush random so hard, then why are you complaining so much? Take the free win whenever you play them (~8% globally) May I ask what league you're in?
again, some of us dont play for ladder points but to improve... the "free win" (which by the way is such a stupid expression since most of us dont pay for wins to begin with) doesnt mean shit to me.
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On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning.
If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all...
On August 20 2012 20:28 Avicularia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 19:51 Lorch wrote:
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with random if the fucking game would just show the race during the loading screen instead of random.
Honestly I'd have 0 problem with terran if the fucking game would just show me what's behind his wall in main. Random race is part of this game and it's the hardest one. I really would love to see great random pro player in torunament doing well. That would give so much more adrenaline. About the ladder. Random is just another race so they have also about 50% winrate. That is, you have about 50% to win. How is this not balanced?
please tell me why random "is the hardest race"....
people keep talkign about random as a fourth race, but as far as I can tell, it's the same unitcompositions and mechanics as T/Z/P. And I have to counter them the same way I'd counter T/Z/P only there's a 67%chance that I'll have to do it in a sub-optimal way since I can no longer play the map or my matchup properly.
Now to all the players who are suggesting "just scout at 9" if you scout on 12 instead of 13 you lose about 180 minerals which fucks up queens/gas/hatch timings etc etc....
the best solution would be to tell your opponent (and yourself) at the loadingscreen which race u're going to be, just like a normal loading screen without even mentioning that one guy is a random player.
Hell if blizzard did that change, I'd def start playing random but as it is right now, I hate playing from unfair advantages/disadvantages since its not going to give me a good practice.
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I think it's nice meeting randoms.
Since random players exist, I like to get some experience playing them, and get better at playing randoms. It's harder for sure, since you often can't open optimally, but on the other hand the random has to learn 3 times more match-ups than I do (I know, I was one for the first year).
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On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all...
Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
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Random annoys me to no end.
I like the idea of people playing random and them even getting some bonuses for it like cooler pictures or whatever, not being able to see what race they are just frustates me to no end.
As protoss my openings highly differ against the race I play. Vs zerg it's FFE with 9 scout, vs protoss it's just 13 gate with scouting for proxies and then their main while against terran i usually don't scout and instead ops for a quick stalker. As building placement and scouting patterns/times highly differ there is no good vs everything build for me.
So from the start I'm behind and I'm limited in my tactical options. I have to play some boring, decent vs everything build. At the same time they can be throwing any cheese at me and randoms in my experience do that a lot. It can be anything from 6 pool to proxy gates, cannons, proxy rax, reapers etc.
As a result a game involving a random is way different than normal games you see in tournaments or play yourself most of the time. Because of the uncertainty some options become way too risky and are practically not doable. This makes it somewhat silly for you because you can't practice what you want (what i play vs random is different than my opening vs anything else) and even for them it's different. Random players claim they must know more strategies so it's fair but actually they never play a normal game. You practically never get cheesed as random so you're not playing ZvP for example you're playing random(zerg) v P which is totally different.
Finally the random advantage means those players are ranked higher than they should be for their mechanics because they get a lot of wins partly due to the random advantage (risky openings because they can't be cheesed, cheesing themselves etc.). So when you open somewhat correctly and it does turn into a normal game it's almost always a boring win because the random players are worse in 'normal games' with their inflated rating.
As the final nail in the coffin, random being present on the ladder actually dilutes the balance statements you can do a bit. Zerg for example is better vs random than protoss because they have a bit less deviation in their first minutes and often get in the free scout anyway.
To sum it up, games vs randoms are useless for practice because they are a different kind, the games are unfun because of poor quality (they have a cheese advantage and their rating is inflated) and it's just worse than games where you know your opponents race.
By all means give randoms some cool portraits and other cool rewards but don't give them some silly ingame advantage, especially not one which introduces another huge luck factor.
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On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
85% of your post is complete rubbish and in no way genuine arguments...
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On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
Please think before you type.
He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
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On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please.
jeez don't be such a retard.
Isn't it normal for someone to dislike the hidden information just because someone can't choose between races? By all means I approve people playing multiple races and I wished the game had three separate ratings for races so you could easily switch or play proper random (where your opponents rating is determined by the race you draw).
As it stands random not being shown is just a very weird reward for them playing more races. And because of that reward they are actually not proficient at playing the three races what you should expect. As mentioned some matchups are truly different when involving a random, most notably random(zerg) vs protoss which is very different than just ZvP because of the FFE. As a result a random player is not even familiar with 'normal' or 'real' ZvP whatever you like to call it.
Weird starting advantage plus random players being misrated just causes for less fun games for the player facing the random player. Is that truly neccesary just so there is a button that let's the computer pick a random race for them? Just get rid of the bonus and give randoms other rewards, like higher chance to be invited into beta's for example. That would actually make sense and be a fair reward outside the game itself..
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On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:On August 21 2012 07:21 Tao367 wrote:
[quote]
Implying NonY faces random in gm. Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem.
as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese.
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On August 21 2012 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem. as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese.
But if your opponent knows that you'll be going for an early-expand build, they can go for a timing attack or other form of early-game pressure and/or all-in to punish your greed.
So it all balances out in the end. You don't know if he's doing a safe opening or a dangerous one. He doesn't know if you're doing a greedy opening or a safe one. That sounds pretty fair to me.
It's different from regular matchups. But it isn't unfair.
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On August 21 2012 21:22 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:
[quote]
No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem. as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese. But if your opponent knows that you'll be going for an early-expand build, they can go for a timing attack or other form of early-game pressure and/or all-in to punish your greed. So it all balances out in the end. You don't know if he's doing a safe opening or a dangerous one. He doesn't know if you're doing a greedy opening or a safe one. That sounds pretty fair to me. It's different from regular matchups. But it isn't unfair.
I assume that you only read my latest post which is basically a follow up to my "big" post on the previous page, please go and read that, then come back and edit your reply
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It sounds like random is worse for Protoss to deal with than other races mostly because FFE is so critical in PvZ for most players. It's not totally fair, IMO.
Blizzard should just show what race the random guy gets. When I play random, I'd rather my race be displayed for the other guy anyway because I'd rather play a normal game against the opponents normal build rather than his suboptimal build (caused by wrong build order or even less minerals due to earlier scout than normal).
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On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
Except the definition of "ZvP" in this sense is not "Forge fast expand" - but rather "A Starcraft game in which one of the two players is Zerg whilst the other is Protoss." So - in every sense - you are playing a real ZvP. A match-up is not defined by a build order - and if it is - that's a problem with game balance and not the Random mechanic. Take the opportunity to diversify your gameplay and send a 12 scout. I've played both random and mained a race. There is no tangible random advantage. You tell yourself there is - and it prevents you from playing with confidence. You try to lift your ego-wing fighter out of the random swamp - and you can't.
I tell you - Random does not have a tangible advantage.
You don't believe it.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Eh, not a big fan of randoms, because it's always either proxy rax, six pool, or DT rush. One guy mixed it up and went cannons, which was a nice break.
Although the last guy I played was a legit Terran who actually played solidly.
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I can't believe how much qq there is in this thread. Seriously if you believe random is such an advantage go try it. Unlike all the people who say people who play random's mechanics are worse than their level, I would argue it's MUCH higher than their level. Random is really fucking hard to play well. To anyone who disagrees, go play random for 10-15 matches and see what your record is. I highly doubt it will be above 50%.
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On August 21 2012 15:27 droken wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 15:21 TRaFFiC wrote:
Have 0 problem as a Terran. Just 14 depot wall off and scout them. Normally wouldn't wall vs t, but has the extra advantage that they don't know if you took gas. But that is as a terran. What do you think happens if you don't know your playing a PvP? PvP has been so far at least accepted as the most coinflip matchup, and not knowing it's a PvP from the start just makes it more of a coinflip. I actually think that it would be better if the dice showed so we all could see we were facing a random player, but showed the race since all the people here obviously play random just for the sake of playing all three races and as such, they wouldn't mind showing their own race in the beginning. It would save a lot of tears playing the ladder.
If they someday decide to reveal random player's race on the loading screen they should never show that he is a random (only in the score screen & replay data). Why? The common belief especially among the 'random haters' is that the random player is automatically less skilled than their race picking opponent. Due to this these people would likely do aggressive cheese & all-ins more as they think they can end the game quickly as their 'less skilled' random opponent likely cannot hold their aggression.
On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all...
False. You would be surprised how often random players face the currently favored opening for each match-up. In some mu:s more often than in some others. But the tricky part is that against random players people open with much wider range of bo:s than they usually do against race pickers - they sometimes start even with an illogical ones for that mu. Thus if the random player is not blindly cheesing/all-inning, he has to figure out what the opponent is doing, which often means he has to play safe or scout actively both for proxies and enemy base & react based on the scouting info. See my previous post about openings against random.
On August 21 2012 20:46 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:40 Sated wrote:On August 21 2012 08:40 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:37 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:35 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:33 Fencar wrote:On August 21 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 21 2012 08:26 Liquid`NonY wrote:On August 21 2012 07:38 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 21 2012 07:34 fire_brand wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. Nony gateway expands more often than not in his PvZs and yet he's GM. This completely throws a lot of the Toss QQ out the window. Adapt or die. No offense to Liquid`Nony or his opponents, but firstly they are not top tier, secondly his opponent tends to not abuse his opening (from what I've seen on his stream). the OP's opponents are better than mine? :o there is no way to abuse my opening. i have a safe, cover-all opening. trying to "abuse" it is a sure way to get a disadvantage. i've lost early game by getting outplayed. but there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Respectfully, this makes no sense. Yes gateway openings are viable. Not disputing that. However, the random opponent (unless they're special) can make a reasonable assumption that you won't be ffe'ing. Then the opponent knows you're not going for that build, and can pretty much make a build to directly counter the gateway opening here. That's the issue me, and a lot of other people are having. The extreme majority of your opponents are not random, and are not likely to just simply assume you are going for a gateway opening. That's the issue here. You missed a line here: there's never a zerg build that can automatically get an advantage against me when im playing my build just as well or better Maybe some evidence to the contrary? Saying "You're wrong and I'm right" will get you nowhere fast. So he's saying that 100% of the time he uses this build, teh build goes according to plan and he can get a fast nexus up, with no risk whatsoever? No, but you can't say the same thing about any build that's ever existed in this game. There's no such thing as a 100% fool proof opening in Starcraft and there never will be. All he's claiming is that there isn't any standard Zerg build that specifically counters his. And that's the point, the random opponent knows you are not going for an ffe build. Therefore, he can do a build that will put him ahead, as he knows the protoss will not be doing ffe. The random doesn't have to play standard because the protoss won't be. That's why he can assume there is a gateway expand, and act on it. I don't see how ya'll fail to understand this. Nony's opponents will not be assuming he isn't doing a ffe, because they're zerg, whereas random opponents of mine will. And once again as people seem to be getting the wrong idea, nobody hates random players, just the mechanic. Edit: Have to head off for the night now, it's late in the uk. Will continue the discussion in the thread if it's still around tomorrow. There is more than one way to be ahead. Read my post earlier in this thread - if you fail to adapt to Random players because you qq too much to do anything about it, that's your problem. as a random player you know your opponent is going to do a safe opening and can take an advantage of that by going hatch/cc/nexus first in every game, and it will pay off more often than not, even though that is not an aggressive cheese, it's def an ecocheese.
No as random you do not know that your opponent is doing a safe build. You can be facing anything between aggressive cheese to greedy economy cheese.
And yes. Opening with greedy CC/Nexus first is an option for a random player (just like it's an option for his race picking opponent), but if he does that he has to be very active with scouting not to lose the game at that point. He has to have a backup plan into which he can transition if he scouts proxies or other early aggression.
Edit: Many race pickers assume lots of things regarding what playing random means. To get broader view one could recommend for them to play some hundreds games as a random to realize how varied the games can be and how small the "your race is not revealed in the beginning" advantage actually is.
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On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
OH pelase give this argument up. When I play random I DO play vs FFE! Its utter BS that no toss FFEs vs a random zerg, I do it myself where the scouting allows for it. Just in-base pylon like Sase, or go GW first and forge when you normally gate, walling to the nexus instead of at the ramp.
Its not perfect but all this "you can never ever ever FFE vs random zergs" is NOT correct.
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On August 21 2012 22:20 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP. OH pelase give this argument up. When I play random I DO play vs FFE! Its utter BS that no toss FFEs vs a random zerg, I do it myself where the scouting allows for it. Just in-base pylon like Sase, or go GW first and forge when you normally gate, walling to the nexus instead of at the ramp. Its not perfect but all this "you can never ever ever FFE vs random zergs" is NOT correct.
Indeed -- many people generalize about what builds the Random player can do in RvP, without ever having played RvP, and assuming only that the Protoss player will play PvR the same way they do.
As someone who has played Random, Terran, Zerg, and Protoss (for those who care, I'm Masters as all 4 -- not saying I'm good, I'm actually quite astoundingly terrible at this game, but I think I have a relatively unique perspective on it), I can safely say that in my experience what Kasu is saying is quite accurate. When I play R(Z)vP, I always 15 hatch, but I still face 15 nexus, 13forge into cannon rush or FFE, or a lot of the time, gateway openings (sometimes 1 base all-ins, sometimes gateway expands). I understand why, as when I play PvR, I like to mix it up, sometimes 15 nexus, sometimes standard pylon at the ramp, sometimes pylon at my natural, and hoping to scout him in time. I try to make FFE work sometimes against T or P (it fails 95% of the time). Personally, I find playing as Random and against Random to be a nice change of pace from the typical mindless follow-the-metagame openings you see when neither player is Random.
I understand why pro players might be annoyed at having to play against Random on ladder when they are trying to use laddering as practice for tournaments. I don't understand why there are so many people here who whine about not getting their perfect practice. Do you all not enjoy crazy, unorthodox situations in SC games? I think variety is part of what makes SC so much fun.
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On August 21 2012 23:54 JDub wrote:
I understand why pro players might be annoyed at having to play against Random on ladder when they are trying to use laddering as practice for tournaments. I don't understand why there are so many people here who whine about not getting their perfect practice. Do you all not enjoy crazy, unorthodox situations in SC games? I think variety is part of what makes SC so much fun.
I also laugh that these presumably below-masters players need their "practice" exactly as they want it. Probably most of the people complaining would benefit from any SC2 and probably benefit more from having to actually think rather than mindlessly click (or look up a build that's good vs random and THEN mindlessly click).
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lol.. scrubs in this thread think that they cant get real game.
Your level of play is so bad.. it does not resemble any tournament play except for the first 30 food.
Get over yourself.
Seriously if it bothers you so much why not just leave the game.. Add all the randoms to your friend's list and then search when none of them are searching.
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I have the same annoyance versus randoms, my zerg opening is very different from my terran and protoss openings. But if you play a strong macro game vs a random they seem to fall apart so easily, since they have to learn three races they tend to specialize in one base or two base cheese and dont know the mechanics past the 12 minute mark. Thus its very rare to see a random in high masters due to that reason.
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On August 21 2012 20:34 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 20:27 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 21 2012 20:05 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2012 17:59 31415926535 wrote:On August 20 2012 17:03 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:51 NicolBolas wrote:On August 20 2012 16:43 Tobberoth wrote:On August 20 2012 16:39 boxman22 wrote:On August 20 2012 16:38 Tobberoth wrote:
It could be fixed so easily by Blizzard making it so that the race is shown on the load screen. That way players can enjoy having a random race, while their opponents aren't punished for their choices. I hate PvT, therefore I am punished any time you play terran. I have read many people don't like playing against terrans. Therefore blizzard should ban terran so their opponents aren't punished for their choices. There's a big difference disliking a certain matchup, and disliking your opponent having an unfair advantage, forcing you to play badly. You might suck against a terran, but at least you can improve your build and learn from every match, but there's nothing to learn from a game vs a random who wins because you had to do a shitty opening. There is no evidence that the random only wins "because you had to do a shitty opening." If that were true, you'd see a lot more random pro players. Just because you always lose to randoms doesn't mean that randoms have an insurmountable advantage. No one has said that randoms have an insurmountable advantage, nor that every game you lose against a random depends on their advantage, so your whole post is 100% irrelevant. Point is, they get an advatange, which: A) They don't deserve. B) Which makes the game more boring for their opponent, because it messes up the balance of the early game. Everyone bringing up performance of random players on ladder or in tournaments is completely missing the point. The advantage randoms get isn't there to make them viable in tournaments or on high level, because they aren't. If you pick random, you do so because you want to play random, not because you expect to do awesome with it, so the advantage has no place there. As a random player, if you feel you need this advantage, you're doing it wrong. A) Some people might consider that by having to be proficient at 9 matchups, random players deserve the small information advantage they have at the beginning. If you random, you wont face a "real" matchup but a suboptimal starting build that will transition into a twisted mid/late-game. so randoms do not have to be proficient at 9 matchups at all... Just like how those REAL Americans will vote for John McCain right? Just because the match-up is slightly different doesn't invalidate it. All the people saying "random players are all skill-less cheesing bastards who ruin the game for us truly dedicated REAL Starcraft players" are - funnily enough - employing an argument used in the 2008 US presidential campaign (a fact which in and of itself should make you ashamed). I played random because I couldn't decide which race to play. Now that I play Zerg - if I match up against random - do you know how many fucks I give? I'll give you a hint - the fuckometer hovers steadily around zero. Just because the opening changes SLIGHTLY and I mean SO slightly - like basically a weevil's fart - doesn't nullify the fact that all players are STILL PLAYING STARCRAFT!!!!!!@!@!@!@ OMG !@!@as Seriously - "Random" means he will spawn as one of the three established SC2 races - not that you will be forced to play a random game or something. "These random players - its like I'm not even playing SC anymore." C'mon guys - stop clenching and allow your testicles to drop out of your torso please. Please think before you type. He has a point, as a Random, you are never going to play a ZvP vs an FFE, while its the most common PvZ build. So in a sense you are not playing real ZvP.
Oh really?
I still face FFE builds as Random, they are just a slightly slower version because the first pylon is in the main followed by a Nexus. It's actually a pretty common opening that Protoss use against me.
Were I 6 pooling on a 2 player map that might be an opportunity for me to abuse my opponent's opening but that would be the same situation were he going for a Nexus first build against Zerg anyway, it's just a calculated risk my opponent takes.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I started the game playing as Zerg in the first two seasons, moved to random for a season then Terran for two more seasons(took a hiatus between random and Terran) and now I've moved back to random because I'm played enough Terran imo. I have really weak MUs and strong ones. I feel comfortable in most Terran and Zerg MUs(mirrors excluded) and less comfortable in any Protoss MUs because I don't feel experienced enough. I feel that my lack of experience is what's holding me back from getting promoted but that's fine.
I rarely cheese even when I choose a specific race. I've only 6 pooled once or twice in all my games and prefer long epic games. I don't understand the notion that going into a game with a random player means that the game will be twisted :S I still 1 rax expand or quick hellions as Terran against Zerg. I still 1 gateway expand as Protoss although I can vary it up with a nexus first or sometimes I go for a stargate or fast blink then expand behind it if I don't outright kill my opponent when I attack. I usually hatch first as Zerg but I've also gone pool first as well and I've also one based before as well.
Just the other day, I got a R(P)vZ on daybreak. I decided that I wanted to go blink stalkers so I went with 1 gate and built my archives then I cancelled it when the OL made his way to my base and rebuilt it after I killed it. I made 3 more gates and pushed into my opponent's base. I managed to outmicro him and took the game. He didn't drone as hard as he could've but he almost held it off if I didn't have blink and avoided sling surrounds. My point? He commented that it's OP and then left. Made my day lol.
Point is that even as random, I still go for macro games but I like aggression in the games and I rarely cheese. If my opponent asks my race, I'll tell them. This whole information advantage in the early game is negligible because no one commenting here is playing on any level where it makes a big difference unless of course, we have GSL players here hehe.
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I feel that Random is actually the best choice if you can possibly master all three of the races. Of course, it may not be easy or even possible for most players but I think if you can master Random, you would have a pretty good advantage even at high levels.
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Love all the people who don't play random trying to say what type of games we play. I've played probably close to 1k ladder games as random, finished top 10 on NA with pure random, managed to hang onto 1st several different seasons for a while, not the greatest but not terrible either. We actually play lots of standard games, any matchup vs terran is 99% standard, most PvPs are 99% standard, the odds of you not scouting me by the time core is done is bad. On 2 player maps, plenty of people still FE in pvz because they can scout a little earlier and easily find me as z, worst case scenario is a 4 player map with last place scout and even then, some people still say fuck it and nexus first. Tons of zergs still hatch first even if they haven't scouted me, it's really not that big of a deal, only vs zerg matchup that is a bit more sketchy is zvz and even then, not by much. I will however agree that it wouldn't be that big of a deal to show the race on the loading screen, but people need to stop acting like it's the end all of the game or matchup. I'm currently only low masters right now but i'll gladly play any of you with any of my races in a so called "fair" game where I pick my race. Utukka 783 if anyone would like to play.
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On August 22 2012 00:08 boxman22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 23:54 JDub wrote:
I understand why pro players might be annoyed at having to play against Random on ladder when they are trying to use laddering as practice for tournaments. I don't understand why there are so many people here who whine about not getting their perfect practice. Do you all not enjoy crazy, unorthodox situations in SC games? I think variety is part of what makes SC so much fun. I also laugh that these presumably below-masters players need their "practice" exactly as they want it. Probably most of the people complaining would benefit from any SC2 and probably benefit more from having to actually think rather than mindlessly click (or look up a build that's good vs random and THEN mindlessly click).
That is so true. Anyone who is complaining that they can't learn from games vR/that it's suboptimal/a waste of time/etc. will never get good at SC2 with that mentality, because they don't understand how to learn, just how to look up someone elses build order and go through the motions without actually using their brains and thinking about why in order to actually learn.
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I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2.
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On August 22 2012 01:26 tehemperorer wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2.
It's perfectly fine for an RTS. Theres no law book of arbitrary features that are and are not allowed in an RTS game. It's existed in starcraft for longer than a decade and there has never been any issues -- the current complaints of PvR(Z), are not an issue either. It's also not PvZ, it's PvR. You aren't fucking supposed to FFE safely. Stop treating random like it's not a different race requiring a different playstyle when playing against it.
Heres a good reason your suggestion isn't needed: theres no issue with random nor has there ever been. How about a good reason to implement it? You have yet to bring up one. Also don't know why we need to take out of context quotes from DB into account when they're rarely consistent in the game's design, and entirely irrelevant in the case of random.
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As protoss my openings highly differ against the race I play. Vs zerg it's FFE with 9 scout, vs protoss it's just 13 gate with scouting for proxies and then their main while against terran i usually don't scout and instead ops for a quick stalker. As building placement and scouting patterns/times highly differ there is no good vs everything build for me.
So from the start I'm behind and I'm limited in my tactical options. I have to play some boring, decent vs everything build. At the same time they can be throwing any cheese at me and randoms in my experience do that a lot. It can be anything from 6 pool to proxy gates, cannons, proxy rax, reapers etc.
What if I told you you could do gateway openers vs Z? Solves all PvR complaints about FFE. Just learn a different build. I play random, and I had to learn 9 match ups. The least you can do is learn to do other things besides FFE. Scouting for cheese is really easy and defending 6 pool from zerg or random is the same exact thing if you do the same build order. You can actually 1 gate FE vs any race and it's still viable and a great build.
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On August 22 2012 01:40 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 01:26 tehemperorer wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2. It's perfectly fine for an RTS. Theres no law book of arbitrary features that are and are not allowed in an RTS game. It's existed in starcraft for longer than a decade and there has never been any issues -- the current complaints of PvR(Z), are not an issue either. It's also not PvZ, it's PvR. You aren't fucking supposed to FFE safely. Stop treating random like it's not a different race requiring a different playstyle when playing against it. Heres a good reason your suggestion isn't needed: theres no issue with random nor has there ever been. How about a good reason to implement it? You have yet to bring up one. Also don't know why we need to take out of context quotes from DB into account when they're rarely consistent in the game's design, and entirely irrelevant in the case of random.
That's why I said it was my opinion, as you've stated yours as well; that's fine and cool. To help you out in your reasoning though, the argument "this is how it has always been" rarely holds up to any serious scrutiny.
Don't assume I think I should be able to FFE safely or that I think PvR is an issue. I can't say it enough: it doesn't bother me. I'm pretty much done trying to clarify what I thought was the OP's point because 1) no one wants to really understand the point, 2) the OP was really complaining about imbalance and I started talking about something else, and 3) there is no hope of an actual discussion where people can talk about random without sounding angry.
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As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level.
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On August 22 2012 01:57 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 01:40 rd wrote:On August 22 2012 01:26 tehemperorer wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about how to play PvR and that it is fine. I'm not disagreeing with it, I said that I don't mind PvR a few times in my posts. My complaint isn't about that, and again, the whole situation doesn't really affect me. As far as the discussion goes (I'm 1.1k Masters, fabled), it's about what place random has in an RTS game.
Read carefully right now and think about what I am saying: Why is random exist in an RTS that strives to maintain balance? I don't care about how Naniwa or Nony open, by the way, so stop bringing it up. For every high level P player that opens gate-expand there are at least three others that open FFE. My claim is that FFE seems to be the best way to play PvZ, and you can't play an FFE in PvR as you would in PvZ. That's the point. The claim is that the random race mechanic forces Protoss to play the same matchup differently, and if you believe FFE is better than gate-expand, then it's a disadvantage. It's basically opinion at this point, but I have not heard any good reason not to display the random's race in the alliance tab in-game so that P players can play a PvR*Z EXACTLY the same as they play PvZ.
Again, I'm not trying to be incendiary, and I don't really care about it when I'm laddering, but in a world where you have DB saying "so-and-so unit doesn't make sense for the setting," there is a cognitive dissonance when that statement is placed alongside the Random race as it exists right now in SC2. It's perfectly fine for an RTS. Theres no law book of arbitrary features that are and are not allowed in an RTS game. It's existed in starcraft for longer than a decade and there has never been any issues -- the current complaints of PvR(Z), are not an issue either. It's also not PvZ, it's PvR. You aren't fucking supposed to FFE safely. Stop treating random like it's not a different race requiring a different playstyle when playing against it. Heres a good reason your suggestion isn't needed: theres no issue with random nor has there ever been. How about a good reason to implement it? You have yet to bring up one. Also don't know why we need to take out of context quotes from DB into account when they're rarely consistent in the game's design, and entirely irrelevant in the case of random. That's why I said it was my opinion, as you've stated yours as well; that's fine and cool. To help you out in your reasoning though, the argument "this is how it has always been" rarely holds up to any serious scrutiny. Don't assume I think I should be able to FFE safely or that I think PvR is an issue. I can't say it enough: it doesn't bother me. I'm pretty much done trying to clarify what I thought was the OP's point because 1) no one wants to really understand the point, 2) the OP was really complaining about imbalance and I started talking about something else, and 3) there is no hope of an actual discussion where people can talk about random without sounding angry.
The question why it must exist can be answered with it has always existed. The dozen years it's been around is the silent approval of it functioning as it should be, or at least the way the community has accepted it to function. Why should it be removed on the basis of 'no argument for it' when every argument against it holds little foundation? You could literally pose that upon any feature transcended from starcraft in an attempt to justify it's removal.
1) Does understanding the OP's point require you to agree with it? Because it's been restated in some form several dozen times in this thread and has been met with the same sympathy and criticism. He's also made dozens of posts and has tried to approach this at every angle possible. Sounds like it's well understood.
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On August 22 2012 02:10 Ansinjunger wrote:
As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level.
no.... just no....
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I feel like blizzard should have a button that allows you to announce your race because lets be honest, the average Battle.net patrons aren't really noted for their honesty...
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On August 22 2012 02:30 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:10 Ansinjunger wrote:
As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level. no.... just no....
Yeah man, why would anyone want to practice anything else than their ONE SINGLE opening against each race, every once in 20-30 games? Silly geese.
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On August 20 2012 04:10 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random. You realize that there's a lot more openings than ffe in PvZ? And you realize that ZvP is the hardest matchup for random players, because it's impossible to practice it? MMR statistics don't lie, Random is by far the weakest race on the ladder. I'm always happy when I play against random, because it means an easier win for me. That stuff about cheesing makes no sense as well. Regardless of the matchup being PvR, PvZ, PvT or PvP, either I scout the cheese and can prepare for it or I don't scout it and am most likely screwed. Since I scout earlier vs Random as well, it's way more easy for me to hold a random cheese than a protoss cheese, which is somewhat impossible, since I scout very late if I know my opponent is toss.
Try Playing KnighTLighT, he is a random player
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On August 22 2012 06:29 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 02:30 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 22 2012 02:10 Ansinjunger wrote:
As I was getting at before, this dislike (or hatred) of random is just an extension of ladder fear. I don't like playing vs random either, but rather than complain about the lack of knowledge, do something smart about it in game, whether that's just playing better than usual, doing what you believe is a solid build (like Nony), or going for a blind cheese. What? Cheese isn't good practice? I'm pretty sure whenever you see a pro cheese in an important game, he practiced it. Embrace learning and challenge, leave the whining behind.
About 4% of players are random, so I doubt you'll get more practice than is "necessary" to practice what you consider an easy strat like a cheese. To the point: MC is known for having the best all-ins. Are your all-ins as good? All-ins also get a bad rap for being relatively easy to execute, but I doubt they're on MC's level, and I doubt your cannon rushing is Gaulzi's level. no.... just no.... Yeah man, why would anyone want to practice anything else than their ONE SINGLE opening against each race, every once in 20-30 games? Silly geese.
Don't you know man? There is only 1 single optimal opener for each matchup! I insta leave any game where zerg doesn't go 15 hatch, becauase you know, it's horrible practice. And ladder is all about the practice bro.
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The only advantage that random players get ends after they are scouted. It's unfortunate for Protoss players who seem to think that ALL they can do is Forge FE, but you can still do a 1 gate expo, or 3 gate Expo, or you can find a new opener that may work as well. For anyone else, you have hatch first as Zerg, which is completely safe, you can do a 1 rax FE, probably the safest build in the game, you have plenty of options vs a Random player.
I would say that it helps players practice more because it makes them think on their feet, and react to what they see and it helps them captialize when they're thrown off their game.
To be honest, sometimes I tell people my race, sometimes I don't, hell, sometimes I lie! It's all fun for me and I love watching players freak out because they don't know anything other than their typical build, maybe some players should stop being 1 trick ponies and learn something other than a Forge FE.
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On August 23 2012 04:45 FortMonty wrote:
The only advantage that random players get ends after they are scouted. It's unfortunate for Protoss players who seem to think that ALL they can do is Forge FE, but you can still do a 1 gate expo, or 3 gate Expo, or you can find a new opener that may work as well. For anyone else, you have hatch first as Zerg, which is completely safe, you can do a 1 rax FE, probably the safest build in the game, you have plenty of options vs a Random player.
I would say that it helps players practice more because it makes them think on their feet, and react to what they see and it helps them captialize when they're thrown off their game.
To be honest, sometimes I tell people my race, sometimes I don't, hell, sometimes I lie! It's all fun for me and I love watching players freak out because they don't know anything other than their typical build, maybe some players should stop being 1 trick ponies and learn something other than a Forge FE.
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!!
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On August 23 2012 05:08 P7GAB wrote:
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!!
Technically if I lied about my race that doesn't mean I'm going to do the same build lol. 1 trick pony measn that all toss want to do is FFE vs Zerg but because I'm Random, they can't safely do so. Sorry, but you should learn the 3 gate Expand or a 1 Gate expand and suck it up. No sense in being a god damn cry baby cause you can't hide beind your cannons. I also only sometimes do that since 80% of the people I play against don't believe me anyway so what's it matter lol.
You guys are so cute with your QQ about random being SOOOO advantageous in the beginning because 1 of the 9 possible match ups that a random faces is thrown off somewhat. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who are scared to experiement rather than practice what they saw MC do.
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On August 23 2012 06:03 FortMonty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 05:08 P7GAB wrote:
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!! Technically if I lied about my race that doesn't mean I'm going to do the same build lol. 1 trick pony measn that all toss want to do is FFE vs Zerg but because I'm Random, they can't safely do so. Sorry, but you should learn the 3 gate Expand or a 1 Gate expand and suck it up. No sense in being a god damn cry baby cause you can't hide beind your cannons. I also only sometimes do that since 80% of the people I play against don't believe me anyway so what's it matter lol. You guys are so cute with your QQ about random being SOOOO advantageous in the beginning because 1 of the 9 possible match ups that a random faces is thrown off somewhat. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who are scared to experiement rather than practice what they saw MC do.
I play terran.... And your a scumbag who needs to try to trick your opponents by lying to them in order tO win
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I dont understand your problems guys.
All information i need i get in the loading screen. Random!
He most likely knows one all-in for each race. Eco (most cases) or unit allin (some cases).
So you already know his strategies, whats more important than his race.
So or so its countered by an unit allin yourself.
Normally 1 base builds on this big maps dont work any-more but normal random player dont adjust to their opponent.
There are some very few random players out there that are able to play the races.
So you will autoloose because of their advantage and your 1 base allin.
But you still have over 90% winratio vs random this way.
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On August 23 2012 06:07 P7GAB wrote:
I play terran.... And your a scumbag who needs to try to trick your opponents by lying to them in order tO win
Maybe I'm a scumbag who occasionally lies to my opponents to trick them, but being naieve shouldn't be rewarded. I think you're a cry baby who needs to know every little detail about your opponent because you can't think of something clever yourself. Random opens a whole new dynamic to the game, it can even revolutionize the metagame by forcing players to play outside of their comfort zone and think of new amazing builds and strategies that you never would've thought to try because they didn't "seem" feasible.
I personally just like to add a little anarchy, throw a wrench in the machine and spill paint on the plans of the average SC2 player who just wants to do their same old normal, BORING build game in and game out. Improvize, break past your comfort zone and think of something new, in the end, people say random players are sneaky because they want ladder points, but aren't all of you QQing because you're taking the bait and losing yours?
By the way, I don't actually direct any of this to the OP, far as I can see he's not really QQing perse, but I do think he shoould try to improvize rather than complain, if you can call it a complaint.
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There is a difference between using the rules of the game as it is designed (random race not telling the opponent), and actively lying to people just to get your jollies off. Maybe "being naieve shouldn't be rewarded," but neither should being a dick.
I'd much rather there be more "naieve" players than jerks.
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Tbh, I don't like to play against random either. It's just the fact that you (at least with Toss) have to 9 scout which completly messes up your normal bo's - and if you now saying you 9scout in PvZ, this is by no means the same, because you won' go FFE when in 2 out of 3 cases your not playing PvZ - and you often have to pull a 2nd probe to scout for proxys, which in my experience is like more then 80% the case (mid-high dia on eu).
Also I never trust people on ladder, so I have no intention to believe him if he tells me what race he plays or pretends to be.
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On August 23 2012 06:50 NicolBolas wrote:
There is a difference between using the rules of the game as it is designed (random race not telling the opponent), and actively lying to people just to get your jollies off. Maybe "being naieve shouldn't be rewarded," but neither should being a dick.
I'd much rather there be more "naieve" players than jerks.
Sure, but then again, for every time I lie there 3 more times that I actually told them honestly. So in the end, it says you really shouldn't trust what a random player says in general. This all is irrelevent anyway since I would rather people simply learn to play in a way that has either high risk or high reward or absolute safety for the cost of being less optimal. Starcraft 2 is not meant to cater to players who are unwilling to change their style in reaction to the course of a game. Not to mention the majority of people who play against random cheese or all in anyway, so they play a completely unstandard piss poor way and are usually more BM to random players at all, so my little tricks are my way of getting back at people who act like scumbags to randoms.
Either way, I enjoy the unpredictability of playing random and I DO enjoy messing with peoples heads by telling a lie or telling the truth. I'm happy to be considered a "jerk" if it means people will be less gullible and a bit more alert. Oh and the next time you play a terran or zerg, or a Protoss, be sure to ask them what build they're opening with and what they intend to do that game, cause that's essentially what you're asking a random player every time you ask them their race.
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the funny thing is, i love how so many of you guys already have an image of random players.
opponent scouts my base and only sees depo or pylon.
i say: "~_^"
opponent goes nuts finding hidden rax/gate somewhere while i happily 14cc or nexus first.
its fun indeed.
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I play as random and have no trouble spawning Protoss vs Random, just learn to Gateway expand. It's safe vs everything, and doesn't make you behind (13 Gate, scout, 17 Nexus).
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On August 23 2012 07:18 Ragnarok_1er wrote:
I play as random and have no trouble spawning Protoss vs Random, just learn to Gateway expand. It's safe vs everything, and doesn't make you behind (13 Gate, scout, 17 Nexus).
Yeah that's safe against an 11gate to 3warpgate pressure on a 4 player map.
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As a Protoss player, I just quit the game against random. Its not worth the few points or whatever to have an entirely illegitimate game.
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1 gate expand is perfectly valid vs a random player, because for one, the 11 gate into 3 gate pressure is not only very hard to pull off without extensive practice (So less likely a random layer who has not had the opportunity for such practice to actually perfect it) it's also perfectly valid to go 1 gate expo or go into Sase's 2 gate aggressive expo or even into a 3 gate robo which 1 gate allows you to do. You can account for all match ups by simply 1 gating expand and scouting your opponent. Are there some difficulties that COULD arise from playing a random like for instance, you being a Protoss against a Random Zerg, and you happen to scout them last on a 4 player map and they Happen to be doing an incredibly aggressive build or an incredibly greedy build that you can no longer punish. sure, those situations can arise, but let's be reasonable, those are very unlikely to take place too often and you're still not in an absolute Terrible state if they do.
As for the players who just leave games because they don't want to play an illigitimate game, I can't wait for the day a random goes to MLG and starts claning house or a GSL or such and those players get a good wake up call. Like I said before, people are just too scared to break past their comfort zone and try something clever, they'd rather give up then try something new, such an unprogressive bunch.
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It's funny that lots of people think random doesn't have to deal with cheese.
Everyone hates playing against random, so they cheese random. Random has to really really be careful that people aren't hiding some cheese. It's especially hard against Terran, because they wall their base in and you can't tell if they are going 1rax cc or taking gas.
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On August 19 2012 21:53 FaCE_1 wrote:
i play random (mid-diamond) and I don't cheese much then anyone (pretty rarely). But i won't tell my race if someone ask.
When I meet random players who don't tell me what race they are I just proxy rax or do some weird giant 1-base Marine timing and move on with my day. It's obnoxious when Random players refuse to tell what race they are on the ladder, and I can only imagine it's worse for people who play Protoss (due to PvZ early game being far different than PvT and PvP).
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On August 23 2012 06:07 P7GAB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 06:03 FortMonty wrote:On August 23 2012 05:08 P7GAB wrote:
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!! Technically if I lied about my race that doesn't mean I'm going to do the same build lol. 1 trick pony measn that all toss want to do is FFE vs Zerg but because I'm Random, they can't safely do so. Sorry, but you should learn the 3 gate Expand or a 1 Gate expand and suck it up. No sense in being a god damn cry baby cause you can't hide beind your cannons. I also only sometimes do that since 80% of the people I play against don't believe me anyway so what's it matter lol. You guys are so cute with your QQ about random being SOOOO advantageous in the beginning because 1 of the 9 possible match ups that a random faces is thrown off somewhat. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who are scared to experiement rather than practice what they saw MC do. I play terran.... And your a scumbag who needs to try to trick your opponents by lying to them in order tO win
On August 23 2012 07:54 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:53 FaCE_1 wrote:
i play random (mid-diamond) and I don't cheese much then anyone (pretty rarely). But i won't tell my race if someone ask. When I meet random players who don't tell me what race they are I just proxy rax or do some weird giant 1-base Marine timing and move on with my day. It's obnoxious when Random players refuse to tell what race they are on the ladder, and I can only imagine it's worse for people who play Protoss (due to PvZ early game being far different than PvT and PvP).
You shouldn't be asking in the first place. Your opponent isn't obligated to tell you anything at all (besides glhf and gg unless they want to be rude). Why should they? If you asked them what their strategy/build is going to be, would you expect them answer truthfully? And announce whenever they were going to drop you and attack you ten seconds beforehand? Of course not. Deception isn't just accepted in a strategy game, it's encouraged. Play to win.
There is only one proper answer to the question of race.
"Scout it"
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On August 23 2012 07:54 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 06:07 P7GAB wrote:On August 23 2012 06:03 FortMonty wrote:On August 23 2012 05:08 P7GAB wrote:
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!! Technically if I lied about my race that doesn't mean I'm going to do the same build lol. 1 trick pony measn that all toss want to do is FFE vs Zerg but because I'm Random, they can't safely do so. Sorry, but you should learn the 3 gate Expand or a 1 Gate expand and suck it up. No sense in being a god damn cry baby cause you can't hide beind your cannons. I also only sometimes do that since 80% of the people I play against don't believe me anyway so what's it matter lol. You guys are so cute with your QQ about random being SOOOO advantageous in the beginning because 1 of the 9 possible match ups that a random faces is thrown off somewhat. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who are scared to experiement rather than practice what they saw MC do. I play terran.... And your a scumbag who needs to try to trick your opponents by lying to them in order tO win Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 07:54 The Final Boss wrote:On August 19 2012 21:53 FaCE_1 wrote:
i play random (mid-diamond) and I don't cheese much then anyone (pretty rarely). But i won't tell my race if someone ask. When I meet random players who don't tell me what race they are I just proxy rax or do some weird giant 1-base Marine timing and move on with my day. It's obnoxious when Random players refuse to tell what race they are on the ladder, and I can only imagine it's worse for people who play Protoss (due to PvZ early game being far different than PvT and PvP). You shouldn't be asking in the first place. Your opponent isn't obligated to tell you anything at all (besides glhf and gg unless they want to be rude). Why should they? If you asked them what their strategy/build is going to be, would you expect them answer truthfully? And announce whenever they were going to drop you and attack you ten seconds beforehand? Of course not. Deception isn't just accepted in a strategy game, it's encouraged. Play to win. There is only one proper answer to the question of race. "Scout it"
What I'm saying is that I do different builds for different match-ups. I know what builds I do against Terran, Protoss, Zerg, and Random. The builds I do against Random happen to be silly cheeses. If they want to play a TvT, TvP, or TvZ with me and they tell me what race they are, then I will play that match-up with them. If they would prefer for me to play TvR, then I will play TvR. But TvR means I am going to cheese.
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I think Terrans should stop walling off in order to hide their tech, It's obnoxious when you don't know if they're opening up with gas or not. And what's with Protoss! They wall off with a forge and cannon so I can't run a ling in periodically to scout everything they're doing! And for God damn sake, stop shooting my overlord marines, it's not fair that I can't scout you because MY tear 1 units can't shoot up. Gosh, I wish people would stop being so obnoxious and just give me free information that can help me win the game!
Kappa.
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On August 23 2012 06:13 skeldark wrote:
I dont understand your problems guys.
All information i need i get in the loading screen. Random!
He most likely knows one all-in for each race. Eco (most cases) or unit allin (some cases).
So you already know his strategies, whats more important than his race.
So or so its countered by an unit allin yourself.
Normally 1 base builds on this big maps dont work any-more but normal random player dont adjust to their opponent.
There are some very few random players out there that are able to play the races.
So you will autoloose because of their advantage and your 1 base allin.
But you still have over 90% winratio vs random this way.
Funny but as a random player on the other side of this thinking, that ratio looks really odd. I get a lot of wins because of this mentality. I counter all-ins by scouting them, it's super effective (it works vs the dirty kind of random player you describe too). It's fun trying to work out what he's up to based on what you've seen and then deciding how to handle it to be as far ahead as you can without being dead. Making your own blind 1 base build and rolling that dice against his isn't a much of a strat, especially if you convince yourself its some kind of moral high ground.
But then I like to play adaptive and I like to try different things. I rarely go the same build twice in a row, even in the unlikely event that I do roll the same matchup and see the same opener. It's not fun for me and fun is why I play.
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On August 23 2012 07:54 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:53 FaCE_1 wrote:
i play random (mid-diamond) and I don't cheese much then anyone (pretty rarely). But i won't tell my race if someone ask. When I meet random players who don't tell me what race they are I just proxy rax or do some weird giant 1-base Marine timing and move on with my day. It's obnoxious when Random players refuse to tell what race they are on the ladder, and I can only imagine it's worse for people who play Protoss (due to PvZ early game being far different than PvT and PvP).
Or you could just scout and find out which race your opponent spawned?!
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On August 23 2012 08:00 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 07:54 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 23 2012 06:07 P7GAB wrote:On August 23 2012 06:03 FortMonty wrote:On August 23 2012 05:08 P7GAB wrote:
Yeah guys111!!1! Lets lie about our race to players so that we can watch them do non viable builds and then call them 1 trick ponies!! Technically if I lied about my race that doesn't mean I'm going to do the same build lol. 1 trick pony measn that all toss want to do is FFE vs Zerg but because I'm Random, they can't safely do so. Sorry, but you should learn the 3 gate Expand or a 1 Gate expand and suck it up. No sense in being a god damn cry baby cause you can't hide beind your cannons. I also only sometimes do that since 80% of the people I play against don't believe me anyway so what's it matter lol. You guys are so cute with your QQ about random being SOOOO advantageous in the beginning because 1 of the 9 possible match ups that a random faces is thrown off somewhat. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who are scared to experiement rather than practice what they saw MC do. I play terran.... And your a scumbag who needs to try to trick your opponents by lying to them in order tO win On August 23 2012 07:54 The Final Boss wrote:On August 19 2012 21:53 FaCE_1 wrote:
i play random (mid-diamond) and I don't cheese much then anyone (pretty rarely). But i won't tell my race if someone ask. When I meet random players who don't tell me what race they are I just proxy rax or do some weird giant 1-base Marine timing and move on with my day. It's obnoxious when Random players refuse to tell what race they are on the ladder, and I can only imagine it's worse for people who play Protoss (due to PvZ early game being far different than PvT and PvP). You shouldn't be asking in the first place. Your opponent isn't obligated to tell you anything at all (besides glhf and gg unless they want to be rude). Why should they? If you asked them what their strategy/build is going to be, would you expect them answer truthfully? And announce whenever they were going to drop you and attack you ten seconds beforehand? Of course not. Deception isn't just accepted in a strategy game, it's encouraged. Play to win. There is only one proper answer to the question of race. "Scout it" What I'm saying is that I do different builds for different match-ups. I know what builds I do against Terran, Protoss, Zerg, and Random. The builds I do against Random happen to be silly cheeses. If they want to play a TvT, TvP, or TvZ with me and they tell me what race they are, then I will play that match-up with them. If they would prefer for me to play TvR, then I will play TvR. But TvR means I am going to cheese.
You were also saying it was obnoxious when they don't answer; but in reality it is an obnoxious question to ask. Random players get cheesed often enough that they are usually expecting it, especially if someone is so rude as to ask for their race. Many of them just do standard solid play and hold off your cheese for free ladder points if that is really your strategy vR. But to each his own.
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Russian Federation501 Posts
On August 19 2012 21:56 Antares_ wrote:I don't care, I just go 1 rax FE and depo scout. When I play random on my smurf acc I reveal my race if opponent asks nicely
same.. I go 1 rax fe or 1 rax with gas and scout at 10 or 13 and then I can do whatever I want ... race doesn't matter that much really
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The ironic thing is most people will cheese randoms, even when the random player is going absolutely standard.
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On August 23 2012 08:05 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 06:13 skeldark wrote:
I dont understand your problems guys.
All information i need i get in the loading screen. Random!
He most likely knows one all-in for each race. Eco (most cases) or unit allin (some cases).
So you already know his strategies, whats more important than his race.
So or so its countered by an unit allin yourself.
Normally 1 base builds on this big maps dont work any-more but normal random player dont adjust to their opponent.
There are some very few random players out there that are able to play the races.
So you will autoloose because of their advantage and your 1 base allin.
But you still have over 90% winratio vs random this way. Funny but as a random player on the other side of this thinking, that ratio looks really odd. I get a lot of wins because of this mentality. I counter all-ins by scouting them, it's super effective (it works vs the dirty kind of random player you describe too). It's fun trying to work out what he's up to based on what you've seen and then deciding how to handle it to be as far ahead as you can without being dead. Making your own blind 1 base build and rolling that dice against his isn't a much of a strat, especially if you convince yourself its some kind of moral high ground. But then I like to play adaptive and I like to try different things. I rarely go the same build twice in a row, even in the unlikely event that I do roll the same matchup and see the same opener. It's not fun for me and fun is why I play.
No its not a strat. I have no intrested in training vs randoms.
Its fast easy wins or fast loose. I dont enjoy games verses randoms and take the mostly free win.
I would have a problem vs guys that play save or react.
Save would not give my opponent a big advantage early and because of the lack of training and understanding of the matchups, he need this advantage to win a game.
Nothing vs you personal but i can count the amount of random that care what i build, on one hand.
Perhaps you are one of the few that does that and get a lot of free wins because of guys like me.
But we both get more wins than looses and are so t the winners of this whole situation.
To the guys who talk about save expansions.
Thats the last you want to do vs random.
All early expansions can die to allins and get far behind against super greed ( what most randoms do) .
So as protoss i would 4 gate, a random all the time. Most time he go nexus / cc first and autoloose.
1 rax fe is not a save build per se.
How save it is depends on what you do after the cc.
If you play the way its save, you are far behind a opponent who plays it not save.
But thats the normal sc2 gamble.
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Yeah, 1 rax fe = good safe build, hatch first is pretty damn safe as well, I actually feel a hatch first build is completely safe vs toss as well, but you can also do a speedling expand and maybe even put on some pressure. As for toss, 1 gate Expand perfectly valid and safe build or even a 3 gate Expand would suffice. Either way, the only thing that should really change overall is that you scout earliar than normal and you're playing a bit more cautiously. Cheesing and all inning can work vs a random, but it's better to not get overly excited on inimidated by some imaginary advantage that you THINK they have.
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On August 23 2012 08:18 aviator116 wrote:
The ironic thing is most people will cheese randoms, even when the random player is going absolutely standard.
It's not most people, at least not on EU, but it is definitely a higher proportion. (Although I announce race which may reduce it some)
It's probably enough that it's worth playing some random if you want to practice your cheese defence. You can even restore some of the balance by cheesing on your off race rolls
Early pools and 4 gates come thick and fast. I've not had many from terran that weren't their standard build (from a quick profile dive).
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It's pretty funny, but the people who cheese, all in or play overly greedy are the people I tend to exploit the most. I mean, you're really not doing yourself any favors by simply avoiding the match up and using the excuse that it's not worth the practice time. At the very least, you can work on your macro, scouting, reactive play, or other core mechanics that come with the game. The only thing you can't really practice vs a random is build order, but as far as everything else, you should be completely fine with practicing and even better, you can learn to adapt your build order to how the game is played.
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Just to say, I didn't expect this thread to get as many hits and spark as big of a debate as this when I made it.
With the benefit of hindsight, I would have not called the thread "random and its place on ladder". I understand this title made many random players assume I was insulting them personally for playing random. As a result I would like to, and have done many times in this thread, clarify I was not out to attack random players personally, just the mechanic. Had I known that this thread would have been as "popular" as this, I'd have named it something like "random in its current form".
That said, I still standby my original stance of personally believing that showing the actual race (with no indication that the player is random) is something I, and a few others would like to see as a personal preference.
Once again, apologies for any offence caused.
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On August 23 2012 10:57 Tao367 wrote:
Just to say, I didn't expect this thread to get as many hits and spark as big of a debate as this when I made it.
With the benefit of hindsight, I would have not called the thread "random and its place on ladder". I understand this title made many random players assume I was insulting them personally for playing random. As a result I would like to, and have done many times in this thread, clarify I was not out to attack random players personally, just the mechanic. Had I known that this thread would have been as "popular" as this, I'd have named it something like "random in its current form".
That said, I still standby my original stance of personally believing that showing the actual race (with no indication that the player is random) is something I, and a few others would like to see as a personal preference.
Once again, apologies for any offence caused.
But can you honestly say you never learned anything from playing against random? Like how to respond to X build or bounce back from Y situation?
Is it so horrible to have a 3% variety in your games? Even if that variety is sometimes annoying, I think it helps with your build adjusting/reactions/overall skill.
Also, saying that playing against random is unfair because the players choose random but you don't have a choice is like saying zerg is unfair because they get to choose zerg while you don't get to choose who you play against, and you just want to practice your vT and vP.
I think people are trying to revert to PGT/ICCup days when you'd join games and people would kick you if you're not the race they wanted to play against.
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On August 23 2012 11:05 CubEdIn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 10:57 Tao367 wrote:
Just to say, I didn't expect this thread to get as many hits and spark as big of a debate as this when I made it.
With the benefit of hindsight, I would have not called the thread "random and its place on ladder". I understand this title made many random players assume I was insulting them personally for playing random. As a result I would like to, and have done many times in this thread, clarify I was not out to attack random players personally, just the mechanic. Had I known that this thread would have been as "popular" as this, I'd have named it something like "random in its current form".
That said, I still standby my original stance of personally believing that showing the actual race (with no indication that the player is random) is something I, and a few others would like to see as a personal preference.
Once again, apologies for any offence caused. But can you honestly say you never learned anything from playing against random? Like how to respond to X build or bounce back from Y situation? Is it so horrible to have a 3% variety in your games? Even if that variety is sometimes annoying, I think it helps with your build adjusting/reactions/overall skill. Also, saying that playing against random is unfair because the players choose random but you don't have a choice is like saying zerg is unfair because they get to choose zerg while you don't get to choose who you play against, and you just want to practice your vT and vP. I think people are trying to revert to PGT/ICCup days when you'd join games and people would kick you if you're not the race they wanted to play against.
I'm sadly going to say no, I haven't learned much (if anything) how to improve my game vs random. As protoss that initial pylon does too much for most of the early/mid game. I'm sorry this isn't what you wanted to hear, but the only experience I've had has been sub optimal build orders and random cheese and/or 1 (rarely 2) base all ins.
That's my personal experience though, and does not reflect everyone else's.
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I don't take offence by the thread, already stated that I don't intend any of my posts to be directed at the OP, but I do direct them towards the ones who whine and moan about random. To me it seems like people will find ANYTHING to complain about that takes them out of their comfort zone. So yeah, I just joke and gibe at the people who complaing, but in the end, I would like to see people start revolutionize their gameplay by finding new and exciting ways to play against random players. Remember, no build was ever created without first taking the risk to try it.
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To the guys who talk about save expansions.
Thats the last you want to do vs random.
All early expansions can die to allins and get far behind against super greed ( what most randoms do) .
So as protoss i would 4 gate, a random all the time. Most time he go nexus / cc first and autoloose.
1 rax fe is not a save build per se.
How save it is depends on what you do after the cc.
If you play the way its save, you are far behind a opponent who plays it not save.
But thats the normal sc2 gamble.
9Scouting and regular early expansions can be very safe against allins.
Super greed can be very risky to normal play. I am interested to hear how many super greedy builds distinguish random above THE SAME player that picks his race. Your problem may be against super greedy builds and not random, since usually you have already scouted the player's race before you would radically change up your build order to something punishing super greed.
Just to say, I didn't expect this thread to get as many hits and spark as big of a debate as this when I made it.
With the benefit of hindsight, I would have not called the thread "random and its place on ladder". I understand this title made many random players assume I was insulting them personally for playing random. As a result I would like to, and have done many times in this thread, clarify I was not out to attack random players personally, just the mechanic. Had I known that this thread would have been as "popular" as this, I'd have named it something like "random in its current form".
That said, I still standby my original stance of personally believing that showing the actual race (with no indication that the player is random) is something I, and a few others would like to see as a personal preference.
Once again, apologies for any offence caused.
Point taken. If you're out here to say somebody that picks Random gets his race for the game revealed on the start screen, I'm pretty close to agreeing with you.
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There are all these random players posting in this thread about how they hold off all sorts of cheeses, but honestly when I play random players and wind up cheesing them I win a huge percentage of my games. I haven't met that many since I started playing a couple of weeks ago again, but like 5 months ago when I was mid-Masters I would win almost all of my vR games doing silly one base cheeses, and regardless of the map it was on.
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On August 23 2012 11:24 The Final Boss wrote:
There are all these random players posting in this thread about how they hold off all sorts of cheeses, but honestly when I play random players and wind up cheesing them I win a huge percentage of my games. I haven't met that many since I started playing a couple of weeks ago again, but like 5 months ago when I was mid-Masters I would win almost all of my vR games doing silly one base cheeses, and regardless of the map it was on.
Let's go son!
But I must admit, since these posts showed up I'm getting cheesed way more. 2 rax + pull SCVs, 2 gate proxy, 6 pool. But you guys are so clumsy with it! Practice practice practice! Randoms are good for ladder.
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I actually had a pretty big problem with randoms basically until I got to where I am now in mid-masters. Back then, you were screwed (especially on Tal'darim). Now I've finally gotten to the point where I can kinda do gateway expands against zerg (early ones, not sentry ones), but honestly it seems like those builds simply aren't viable in lower leagues, they're so hard to do. It really puts Protoss in particular in an uncomfortable position, it was really annoying to feel like I was completely forced to 4-gate, especially with how easy that build is to hold...
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The problem is in the game design, why are we even giving the races to begin with.
We don't know they're position... no need to know they're race either.
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EPT
