EPTwhat technique should i try?
Every time ive played this map its been a sentry/immortal/stalker push with a lot of sentries . . this the going rate for this map and the toss?
[Q] ZVP Pylon block on taldarim what do?
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
what technique should i try? Every time ive played this map its been a sentry/immortal/stalker push with a lot of sentries . . this the going rate for this map and the toss? | ||
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Stipulation
United States587 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
There's two main options you can do: 1. have your drone scout go to the desired 3rd base after scouting; timed properly so that you get there early enough for around when the hatchery needs to go down. If the natural gets blocked, build it there. 2. Run 11 overlord 10 pool (or 11 overlord 11 pool). This way if they pylon block you won't lose a whole lot of hatchery time, since you can have 4 (or even 6) lings out pretty quick. This opening will not hurt your economy much. It's worse than a hatchery first build, but should be —at least theoretically— better economy than something like 14 pool into x hatch — especially in pylon block situations. I guess there's also a 3rd option which pros maybe seem to do occasionally— taking more than one drone along to the natural and somehow block a pylon block and/or slip a drone in before the probe builds a pylon (while the player is still trying to block with the probe) | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
no replay, just need answer to if i get pylon blocked on THIS MAP not too bad on all others, what should i do. ive seen some pros put it at the 3rd but next to the rocks before they have been destroyed. . . . thinking about it, this may not be a bad idea cos then when i do kill the roicks it can serve as a macro . . .hmmmmmmm | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
the 4 lings you make will make him take the forge before the nexus, and sometimes punish them if they are too greedy. you can also 10 pool and make the lings only if he hasn't scouted yet and go cause terrible damage. and if he was lucky to scout you first, wait until the pool is done to make 3 drones instead of lings (or just 1 pair of lings to kill the probe). He will probably overreact, cut probes to add cannon and an extra gateway to block his expo (it is very wide). and if they put the cannon too deep inside the wallin (good against a roach bust), sometimes they don't reach the whole wallin and you can kill a pylon with just a couple lings. if you drone scout you can build a hatch inside their base and all that stuff. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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Drunken.Jedi
Germany446 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On May 30 2012 04:02 Xapti wrote: This should be the "zerg help me thread" or simple questions simple answers. There's two main options you can do: 1. have your drone scout go to the desired 3rd base after scouting; timed properly so that you get there early enough for around when the hatchery needs to go down. If the natural gets blocked, build it there. 2. Run 11 overlord 10 pool (or 11 overlord 11 pool). This way if they pylon block you won't lose a whole lot of hatchery time, since you can have 4 (or even 6) lings out pretty quick. This opening will not hurt your economy much. It's worse than a hatchery first build, but should be —at least theoretically— better economy than something like 14 pool into x hatch — especially in pylon block situations. I guess there's also a 3rd option which pros maybe seem to do occasionally— taking more than one drone along to the natural and somehow block a pylon block and/or slip a drone in before the probe builds a pylon (while the player is still trying to block with the probe) 1. He's asking about taldarim, where noone goes fast third because you can't defend it against a half decent protoss. It's simply too far away from your main to get units there fast enough to defend it from any 4 gate +1 warpin with a voidray. 2. Overpool still doesn't get lings out fast enough to deny cannon rush - I don't know how many threads I have to post this in, for some reason people still think you don't have to pull drones if you're going overpool. You do. And on TDA, unless you've drone scouted WHILE going overpool (this doesn't make any sense) and got lucky to find him first, he's still going nexus first and defending it ezpz. Honestly, there's no reason to go overpool when it puts you behind in economy versus a 14 pool and is no safer against cannon rushing. Multiple people have done these tests, it's time to finally let this opening die unless you're going overpool with ling speed to do a baneling bust allin, which I've also seen work against greedy toss. You can pull some extra drones to try and get the hatch down, sure, I've seen pros do this multiple times. I just don't care too much on TDA because it's not like you're going fast third base anyway. | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
On May 30 2012 05:28 Drunken.Jedi wrote: The lings from 12 pool are actually not that much faster than from 14 pool. Even with 12 pool you can still lose to a cannon rush, especially the one where they block your ramp with 3 pylons. And on a big map like Tal'Darim Altar, protoss can usually still get away with Nexus first. I think 12 is considerably faster than 14 pool, which is nice cause you can kill the pylon before it is finished. That is important cause else he can put down a gateway to delay you even longer. In case of 3pylon block you also get to hit the wall earlier, forcing more wallin, and you get an earlier queen also. Which means also getting an earlier second queen, which you need to spread creep to the pylon wall to take it down with a spine AND inject. Plus, with the range buff of the qeen, you can hit the pylons at the wall from upper ground in all maps or from the same ground without taking hits from the cannons in some circumstances. Maybe 14 is better as you suggest, but i've had more success with 12 pools. Maybe it throws them off, which is good enough. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
also, if Toss pylon blocks you, just wait for your 4 lings. Toss is just as behind as you are. The cost of maynarding drones to your third is like 160 minerals if you take it was your natural (some people do it, but i wouldn't recommend it because of this). That is important cause else he can put down a gateway to delay you even longer. if toss puts down a core, not a gateway (same cost but has more HP), you just make an extra pair of lings, for 6 lings total. Toss is more delayed than you are. What toss are you playing that make gateways?? Also, 11 pool is worse than 12 pool, and 11 pool is WAY behind 14 pool in economy. 14 pool gives you 300 minerals to take a natural ~22 supply, and banks you about 800 minerals by about 30 (which is when you would have taken 2 bases), whereas 11 pool means no natural (or less drones when you take it) and a very, very late third. You can have success with any build on ladder, and just because you use a bad build on ladder, doesn't make it a superior build. Please use evidence and facts to back up what you say, otherwise, keep statements about what builds you prefer to yourself, as you make it seem as though 12 pool is in any way better economically than 14 pool, when you are actually wrong. You will not hit the wall earlier with a 12pool, the cannon will be finished before your lings can take down the pylon. This has been posted a million times by people including myself, as well as in the ZvP guide. You can msg me on bnet Belial.869 and I'll show you how you will always lose with a 12 pool against a cannon rush or a ramp block if you expect to hold it without pulling drones. And staying on 1 base vs a 1 base toss until you use a queen to attack the cannons, is not a good idea at all (for example, TDA has no ramp...). And going 12 pool to throw off a bad toss is not a good reason to use it. Any good toss will see a pool was made well before 1:55-2:00, and is obvoiusly a ~11 pool. You are killing yourself economically because of the possibility of Toss throwing down a gateway, but Toss is the only one being put behind by making a gateway. You should hope that Toss puts a gateway in your natural, and you just make 2 extra lings to tear it down and take a slightly later natural while Toss is wayyyy behind. And it's a cybernetics core, not gateway. If you are playing low level Toss who make gateways, or cores, against pool first, just be happy about it that you are getting a free advantage. Don't ruin your build by falling 3-5 drones behind and 200-300 minerals behind by going 12 pool instead of 14 pool. Totally not worth it. And you will autolose to cannon rushes without pulling drones just the same. But at the lower levels, people don't cannon rush properly, so I imagine 12 pool works just fine there, but it won't work anywhere else. | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
On May 30 2012 06:20 Belial88 wrote: veto this horrible map. You can't go hatch first in zvz because no way to block the ramp, and you can't take a fast third before lair which is the standard these days in zvz, zvp, and zvt. Not to mention other balance problems. also, if Toss pylon blocks you, just wait for your 4 lings. Toss is just as behind as you are. The cost of maynarding drones to your third is like 160 minerals if you take it was your natural (some people do it, but i wouldn't recommend it because of this). if toss puts down a core, not a gateway (same cost but has more HP), you just make an extra pair of lings, for 6 lings total. Toss is more delayed than you are. What toss are you playing that make gateways?? Also, 11 pool is worse than 12 pool, and 11 pool is WAY behind 14 pool in economy. 14 pool gives you 300 minerals to take a natural ~22 supply, and banks you about 800 minerals by about 30 (which is when you would have taken 2 bases), whereas 11 pool means no natural (or less drones when you take it) and a very, very late third. You can have success with any build on ladder, and just because you use a bad build on ladder, doesn't make it a superior build. Please use evidence and facts to back up what you say, otherwise, keep statements about what builds you prefer to yourself, as you make it seem as though 12 pool is in any way better economically than 14 pool, when you are actually wrong. You will not hit the wall earlier with a 12pool, the cannon will be finished before your lings can take down the pylon. This has been posted a million times by people including myself, as well as in the ZvP guide. You can msg me on bnet Belial.869 and I'll show you how you will always lose with a 12 pool against a cannon rush or a ramp block if you expect to hold it without pulling drones. And staying on 1 base vs a 1 base toss until you use a queen to attack the cannons, is not a good idea at all (for example, TDA has no ramp...). And going 12 pool to throw off a bad toss is not a good reason to use it. Any good toss will see a pool was made well before 1:55-2:00, and is obvoiusly a ~11 pool. You are killing yourself economically because of the possibility of Toss throwing down a gateway, but Toss is the only one being put behind by making a gateway. You should hope that Toss puts a gateway in your natural, and you just make 2 extra lings to tear it down and take a slightly later natural while Toss is wayyyy behind. And it's a cybernetics core, not gateway. If you are playing low level Toss who make gateways, or cores, against pool first, just be happy about it that you are getting a free advantage. Don't ruin your build by falling 3-5 drones behind and 200-300 minerals behind by going 12 pool instead of 14 pool. Totally not worth it. And you will autolose to cannon rushes without pulling drones just the same. But at the lower levels, people don't cannon rush properly, so I imagine 12 pool works just fine there, but it won't work anywhere else. Well, i know you are way better than me, so you are very likely to be right and i'm wrong. But have you tried it? It -may- not be so onesided as you think. Plus, i'm not sure what you are calling low level toss. Maybe compared to you (gm i recall?) these are terrible, but i'm having "success" hovering around 1200th placement (not points, points inflate  ) in NA masters. And if it works for me, it should work for others around or below that.First of all, yeah, a core is better, but they can make a core only if they already have a gate, correct? Which is sometimes not the case if they went nexus forge or forge nexus. And why are you so sure that the protoss is behind? He dalayed your expo for a long time and will cancel before it is done and use that cash on something else, you are stuck with 6 lings without much use. On maps like antiga where you have creep close to the ramp from the start, you can spam spines close to the ramp just as the pool finishes. The cannons will probably be done sooner (seen that cannon rush against the corner? ), but you only need to kill whatever he puts up the ramp to gain vision, and sniping the probe is easy with the early spines. But starting the spines just some seconds later could kill you.Anyway, it's been a while since i went 14 pool, i'll give it another try and see how it feels  .----------- Oh! and to the original poster. Given you couldn't expand, you will float minerals, so you can use the drone scout to build a hatch in his natural if he hasn't already, then cancel it and if you are fast enough, you can build an evo chamber in the small creep patch left by the hatch. Even Steven! | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
When base trading Protoss I find if you take out the pylons powering their production, and then keep massing yourself [preferably mutas since they will escape the base], you will be able to win a final fight. I wouldnt try base trading against a 7 gate though... The final army is probably too strong to fight, without spines supporting you. 7 gate is the most difficult thing about this opening. It can be difficult to handle but it can be defended. It just requieres a good preparation. It's not as easy to blink into your main on this map so that's a plus. What you may want to do is open speed on this map and deny the protoss from scouting whether you have a 3rd. This way he does not know you are going muta, makes a 7 gate less likely. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I posted the rep somewhere here... Anyways, I know 12 pool is not the same as 11 pool, but they are similar, and the pool is actually later than 11 pool. Others have tested it though, proving it's worse economically than 11 pool and 14 pool. Yes, having your natural come slightly later does suck, but you have to remember Toss is investing in a pylon super early in the game, it's not like the pylon is free for Toss. So Toss is being put behind just as much as you are for putting that pylon up. If he puts a gateway up, he's really far behind, it's a lot of money. Toss is behind because of instead of getting a core or more probes, he's putting down a pylon. I think someone did the math on the cost of a delayed natural, and it's around 100 minerals. I've done testing on my own, 14p16h vs 14p22h, and yea there is a difference, of about 3 drones by the 8:00 mark, but Toss is put behind similarly for that quite pylon. First of all, yeah, a core is better, but they can make a core only if they already have a gate, correct? Which is sometimes not the case if they went nexus forge or forge nexus. im an idiot On maps like antiga where you have creep close to the ramp from the start, you can spam spines close to the ramp just as the pool finishes. The cannons will probably be done sooner (seen that cannon rush against the corner? ), but you only need to kill whatever he puts up the ramp to gain vision, and sniping the probe is easy with the early spines. But starting the spines just some seconds later could kill you. While technically yes, Toss spent more money than you did, you will never win when being on 1 base long-term against a 1 base Toss who is free to take his natural. It doesn't make sense. I mean, why don't you juse go 1 base all-in against Toss in a macro game if this were true, right? You need your natural against toss, at the very least. So it's definitely worth it for Toss to invest ~500 minerals to delay/kill your natural. You just can't beat a Toss if you are trapped on 1 base, unless he fucks up like lets a nydus in, or is super greedy against a zerg who's on 1 base and can only do 1 base things. You were just talking about the merits of taking your natural so quickly with 12 pool. How long is your nat delayed when you have to use tumors, a 2nd queen, and spines? The spines actually take a while to work down a pylon, your natural will be taken soooo late, you just have no hope to win. Try playing as a 1 base Zerg and see how many games you win in a macro game when you can only take your natural after your creep gets to your ledge and then you morph a spine and then take your natural. If Toss cancels his pylon, just take the natural. He will be delayed, again, for making a pylon and cancelling it. it's not just the 25 minerals cost of cancelling a pylon, it's 100 minerals he has tied up that he didn't spend. Cancelling buildings isn't free, nor is the cost a straight 25% - making a pylon costs 100 minerals, regardless if you cancel it or not, because it's 100 minerals you no longer have, that you can no longer use. If you cancel it, you get some money back, but not all of it, and that was a building, or probes, that you could have made earlier if you just didn't make it at all. Pylon doesn't delay your natural by that much. It just delays it only a short while, you just get 4 lings out and tear it down. There's a small delay, but similarly, there's a just as small delay for Toss. It's not the end of the world, and it's no reason to lose 3-5 drones because you choose to do a sub-optimal opening. You lose way more by going 12 pool than you do by going 14 pool and having to tear down a pylon. Besides, if you go 12 pool you may still have to tear down a pylon and be forced to make 4 lings. Oh! and to the original poster. Given you couldn't expand, you will float minerals, so you can use the drone scout to build a hatch in his natural if he hasn't already, then cancel it and if you are fast enough, you can build an evo chamber in the small creep patch left by the hatch. Even Steven! He can have 2 cannons in range of the it, and take it down in time. From what I've seen of zergs doing these kinds of things (leenock did it in mlg I believe... some other zerg likes to do it a lot, forgot his name, not catz, but some guy in the gsl), toss can just react correctly and end up even or slightly ahead (judging from supply counts and where they are in the game as opposed to normal games when zerg or toss hits a certain benchmark, eg when zerg makes a third hatch toss only has X buildings usually). They will have cannons in range considering how FFE puts cannons at the wall in or nexus. Maybe on a map like antiga or Terminus where toss might make the wall-off out of range of the nexus. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On May 30 2012 07:26 ElPeque.fogata wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 30 2012 06:20 Belial88 wrote: veto this horrible map. You can't go hatch first in zvz because no way to block the ramp, and you can't take a fast third before lair which is the standard these days in zvz, zvp, and zvt. Not to mention other balance problems. also, if Toss pylon blocks you, just wait for your 4 lings. Toss is just as behind as you are. The cost of maynarding drones to your third is like 160 minerals if you take it was your natural (some people do it, but i wouldn't recommend it because of this). if toss puts down a core, not a gateway (same cost but has more HP), you just make an extra pair of lings, for 6 lings total. Toss is more delayed than you are. What toss are you playing that make gateways?? Also, 11 pool is worse than 12 pool, and 11 pool is WAY behind 14 pool in economy. 14 pool gives you 300 minerals to take a natural ~22 supply, and banks you about 800 minerals by about 30 (which is when you would have taken 2 bases), whereas 11 pool means no natural (or less drones when you take it) and a very, very late third. You can have success with any build on ladder, and just because you use a bad build on ladder, doesn't make it a superior build. Please use evidence and facts to back up what you say, otherwise, keep statements about what builds you prefer to yourself, as you make it seem as though 12 pool is in any way better economically than 14 pool, when you are actually wrong. You will not hit the wall earlier with a 12pool, the cannon will be finished before your lings can take down the pylon. This has been posted a million times by people including myself, as well as in the ZvP guide. You can msg me on bnet Belial.869 and I'll show you how you will always lose with a 12 pool against a cannon rush or a ramp block if you expect to hold it without pulling drones. And staying on 1 base vs a 1 base toss until you use a queen to attack the cannons, is not a good idea at all (for example, TDA has no ramp...). And going 12 pool to throw off a bad toss is not a good reason to use it. Any good toss will see a pool was made well before 1:55-2:00, and is obvoiusly a ~11 pool. You are killing yourself economically because of the possibility of Toss throwing down a gateway, but Toss is the only one being put behind by making a gateway. You should hope that Toss puts a gateway in your natural, and you just make 2 extra lings to tear it down and take a slightly later natural while Toss is wayyyy behind. And it's a cybernetics core, not gateway. If you are playing low level Toss who make gateways, or cores, against pool first, just be happy about it that you are getting a free advantage. Don't ruin your build by falling 3-5 drones behind and 200-300 minerals behind by going 12 pool instead of 14 pool. Totally not worth it. And you will autolose to cannon rushes without pulling drones just the same. But at the lower levels, people don't cannon rush properly, so I imagine 12 pool works just fine there, but it won't work anywhere else. Well, i know you are way better than me, so you are very likely to be right and i'm wrong. But have you tried it? It -may- not be so onesided as you think. Plus, i'm not sure what you are calling low level toss. Maybe compared to you (gm i recall?) these are terrible, but i'm having "success" hovering around 1200th placement (not points, points inflate ) in NA masters. And if it works for me, it should work for others around or below that.First of all, yeah, a core is better, but they can make a core only if they already have a gate, correct? Which is sometimes not the case if they went nexus forge or forge nexus. And why are you so sure that the protoss is behind? He dalayed your expo for a long time and will cancel before it is done and use that cash on something else, you are stuck with 6 lings without much use. On maps like antiga where you have creep close to the ramp from the start, you can spam spines close to the ramp just as the pool finishes. The cannons will probably be done sooner (seen that cannon rush against the corner? ), but you only need to kill whatever he puts up the ramp to gain vision, and sniping the probe is easy with the early spines. But starting the spines just some seconds later could kill you.Anyway, it's been a while since i went 14 pool, i'll give it another try and see how it feels .----------- Oh! and to the original poster. Given you couldn't expand, you will float minerals, so you can use the drone scout to build a hatch in his natural if he hasn't already, then cancel it and if you are fast enough, you can build an evo chamber in the small creep patch left by the hatch. Even Steven! No, Belial is mid master Zerg, not GM. I'm going to also chime in (high master zerg) and say that you CANNOT hold cannon rushes or ramp blocks going overpool or 12 pool without pulling drones. I don't know why people continue to propagate this information that somehow going 12 pool makes cannon rushes moot without having to pull your drones. It simply doesn't work. Toss is going to have your ramp walled off long before you hatch lings, and he'll have a cannon finished behind the wall by the time your lings start attacking the pylons. If you look in the Z help thread, there is a post in the last 2 pages (might have been made by belial idk) that SPECIFICALLY shows this with replays. Protoss isn't as much behind as equal. If he makes a gateway at your natural (by the way the reason people don't make a core is that they don't have a gateway finished yet when going FFE, I don't know why people haven't picked up on this yet, a standard gateway off FFE starts at 3:45 so there's no way he's going to have it done to build a core at your natural), then he's just delayed his second pylon at his base by that 150 minerals, which supply blocks him for that stage of time after you've killed the pylon at your natural off. This assumes he's going pylon -> forge -> nexus -> cannon -> gate -> pylon which is what I see in high master NA. I've seen Hero go forge nex gate pylon cannon which is super greedy and if the zerg sends lings right to him he won't have the cannon up in time, but he just blocks the natural hatch which virtually guarantees the lings will stay to kill that and give him time to get the cannon up. He delayed your expo for a long time but you're getting 3 bases up really quickly anyway for max production, and he also blocked himself at 19/18 or 20/18 food, so IMO toss isn't actually gaining any net benefit from making the gate at your natural. Basically it doesn't matter what you do. If toss gets the ramp wall done, and you're stuck cancelling your expand and trying to fight down from the top of your ramp, you are dead against a competent protoss and should just leave the game. Just go 14 pool since it's empirically the most economic build when wanting to get 3 hatch before gas, and patrol a drone at the ramp until Blizz gets their head out of their rear end and puts the neutral depot at the ramps on ladder maps. It's not that hard. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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