EPTI understand arguments from bothsides and honestly you shouldn't try and enforce limitations of play. Openings shouldn't have to be this or that. Part of what's great about the game is the variety. Not all randoms are cheesers and even if they were, it's really their call to make. One race players can also be cheesy or standard. Even learning to survive cheese from a random can help you become a better player. Suck it up
Random and its place on the ladder - Page 16
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spiralkill
United States17 Posts
I understand arguments from bothsides and honestly you shouldn't try and enforce limitations of play. Openings shouldn't have to be this or that. Part of what's great about the game is the variety. Not all randoms are cheesers and even if they were, it's really their call to make. One race players can also be cheesy or standard. Even learning to survive cheese from a random can help you become a better player. Suck it up | ||
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Th30nE
United States44 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:31 Berceno wrote: lol, yes sure we will nexus first, autoloss vs P, we can FFE too autoloss if vs P, or we can open with gate, good vs P/T but almost autoloss vs Z, all people scout in 9-15 even in bronze random doesn't make you learn nothing new if you actualy READ what i said instead of blasting off irrelevant whining, i said 9 PYLON SCOUT!, then you can make your decision based on what you scout, which is what you should do regardless, if you build blind you deserv an autoloss | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote: Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does. Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent. I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. | ||
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RedMosquito
United States280 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:13 reki- wrote: This is the worst whining topic ever, next thing will be "please give us 5minutes of enemy base view at the start so we can see what build we are up against". Playing against random learns you how to scout and react instead of trusting you can fast expand Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. | ||
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Avicularia
540 Posts
And every race has some good opening vs random. Terran can go 1 rax expand, zerg 14 pool or 15 hatch, protos should scout after first pylon is up (it's good vs zerg, you can block hatches, and goof vs terran 'cos there is no wall yet) and decide after that. It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
I understand you want to play random. If your goal is to learn all the MU's, then you wouldn't oppose the 'loading screen showing your race. Your still random, but the game should show which race after the countdown before the game begins. People are saying 1 gate expand/etc, learn a safe build for only random. This doesn't matter. Random shouldn't give any advantage at all to the person choosing it, and people who say it should give an advantage are not the people who are playing to learn the game, they are the people who want an unfair advantage early game so they can cheese. Not a single post ive seen can argue against the 'loading map' part of the screen displaying the race. Your still random even if it does that. edit: I know no pro's use Random effectively. But there is an argument for it imo, Random would still give an advantage in a series because the opponent wouldn' t know your race untill the map starts to load, so for every map in the series, theyd have to prepare 3x as much as vs a non random player, fair enough imo | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:47 xrapture wrote: Why not just flip a coin before race select to determine what race you'll be. Why must you start the game with an unfair advantage. You obviously aren't playing random solely because you like every race-- part of it is the advantage. some of us just dont give a shit and play the game. blizzard put this nice function in there allowing us to play random, and we do it. can any of you even provide a replay where you lost because of the "random factor" rather than you not playing well? | ||
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
Anyway, with that said, I think banning the 4th race from tournaments is very justified. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
can you provide a reason why the race shouldn't show up on the loading screen? | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
A lot of the newer (just turned 1 in sc2) don't know what that is. It doesnt actually give zerg an advantage, and can hold a 6 pool quite easily. There are some nice pylon gate wall offs that arent too bad PvZ and PvP, and you normally scout them by the time you want to place your gate. 9 scout ftw. It bothers me that ye, I like to FFE, but generally, a gate in base holds their 6 pool better anyways. Also, TLO played competitive random in the GSL, as did a few of the other players (I think Gumiho was random at one stage, and GuineaPig was definitely random. Made for some fun GSTL games) Tbh, if they want to play it in a tourney, and they can get there. Good on them | ||
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Wrathsc2
United States2025 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote: Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. u can 2 gate fe and pressure.... | ||
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Avicularia
540 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:57 ohampatu wrote: I agree, as a protoss player, playing vs R is dumb. I understand you want to play random. If your goal is to learn all the MU's, then you wouldn't oppose the 'loading screen showing your race. Your still random, but the game should show which race after the countdown before the game begins. People are saying 1 gate expand/etc, learn a safe build for only random. This doesn't matter. Random shouldn't give any advantage at all to the person choosing it, and people who say it should give an advantage are not the people who are playing to learn the game, they are the people who want an unfair advantage early game so they can cheese. Not a single post ive seen can argue against the 'loading map' part of the screen displaying the race. Your still random even if it does that. I would like to see more randoms in tournaments, but no one is using it so it's not that OP as you say it is. About protos you can just scout at 9 pylon or open 13 gate or something. Almost every protos uses FFE now, so they don't even know that they are good gateways openers too. | ||
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Malaz
Germany1257 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote: Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Random is banned from tournaments? Excatly which tournaments are you talking about? I get that you need to convince yourself that every random player you lose to just won because he has an "unfair" (lol) advantage over you and that he can't possibly be better than you. Let's put it this way: There is no notable pro player that play random and no random isn't banned from most tournaments. What conclusion can we draw from this fact? Right, a player concentrating on one race only will always be better than a random player if they are both equally talented and invest the same amount of time. You might even say the non random player has an unfair advantage! :p So next time you lose to a random player, just remember that he would very likely stomp you even more if he would concentrate on one race only. (I know I'm exaggerating but some of the arguments in this thread are really funny...) | ||
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Zetter
Germany629 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:50 cydial wrote: Online or irl it fucking baffles me sometimes how people say things and then don't realize the contradictions they're making. You say random is fine as is, then later say that there are situations where 4 player maps occur and you get, "Unlucky." ........ Random needs to display the race before the match starts, it makes no sense in a competitive game for some gimmicky wins to be allowed based on a computer generated number. You can always get unlucky on 4 player maps. PvZ, you scout Zerg last and he early pools -> auto loss, PvP you scout Toss last and he cannon rushes or 2gate proxies -> auto loss. If you lose to cheese it has nothing to do with whether you know what race he is. Because you can't say "oh he's zerg, so he's gonna 6pool". You need to scout him first. Same goes for random. Personally I always go double scout vs Z when I don't scout him first, so I just do the same thing with random. On August 20 2012 05:55 RedMosquito wrote: Except for protoss against zerg. Protoss is at a huge disadvantage if they cant forge fe against zerg. (I know theres 1gate fe builds now but some of those dont work on certain wide ramps, and is kind of risky in general). So if your playing random your going to most likely open gate in your main base, which would put you behind or atleast very uncomfortable against a zerg. Gateway openings are perfectly viable on any map. At least I haven't played any map where I'd lose a lot more than on others in PvZ. Also there's ffe openings where you put your forge in your main, which you can still decide after pylon scout. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:00 ohampatu wrote: i can provide many, all of them cheeses and direct build order losses can you provide a reason why the race shouldn't show up on the loading screen? because its unnecessary. | ||
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spiralkill
United States17 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote: Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does. Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent. I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. If it's an unfair advantage, why don't you play random? It's not so easy to practice for all match ups. Not all tournaments historically have banned random and including the GSL. Where is our random champion? It's not a flawed design. It's a flawed design in the eyes of a number of people who are having issues with it. So maybe you should look in your own play rather than restructuring the design for all random players. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote: Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. And are monumentally disadvantaged if you don't roll the one in three chance you get your main race. I'd love to know which (relevant) tournament a random player has won. Or the winrates of random since release. This is such a dumb argument. On August 20 2012 06:00 ohampatu wrote: i can provide many, all of them cheeses and direct build order losses can you provide a reason why the race shouldn't show up on the loading screen? Because random is hugely disadvantaged in every other possible way at equal skill levels. Now list your build order losses. | ||
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xrapture
United States1644 Posts
you know how awful that logic is? We are FORCED to use sub optimal builds that we don't want to just because someone picks random? Awesome. Random makes it fun for one guy while not fun for the other, while if random just randomly chose your race no one would suffer. There is no legitimate argument for random hiding your race. None. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
build order losses: any 13 gate against a competent random who rolls zerg. they preemptively have enough information to deny you from ever expanding, and if its a 4 player map and you scout last, gg. They have enough information to do speedling build that can prevent any 1 gate to 3 gate expand, and you dont know they are even doing the build order until 2 minutes+ into the game, i haven' t played R in the last few days, ill search for replalys, maybe some of you are shitty random players? | ||
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