EPTRandom and its place on the ladder - Page 17
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xrapture
United States1644 Posts
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Utukka
26 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote: Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. Are you sure it's banned in all of them? I thought it was you were just stuck with random once you've picked it, in other words, you can't change race based on map/opponent etc. That aside, I do see how it's an advantage at the start but I don't think it's that game breaking, maybe at lower levels of play I could see it but better players should know more than just 1 build against any race. From my experience from playing random purely as high as top 10 masters with mostly no cheese on my part, most of those players don't seem to be affected by playing against random. Also, random players also have to vs other random players so we do get a taste of it. | ||
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote: I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random. What strategies are you talking about? I can only think of cc first and hatch first in ZvP, you can punish any other greed. You can't really punish a cc first anyway unless you're metagaming and according to Belial's ZvP guide a gateway expand can scout your hatch first, throw a forge and cannon rush anyway. When you lose games because you're not able to FFE it's your problem for not being able to gateway expand, it's completely viable. (unless you're talking about Tal'darim, but what protoss doesn't veto that map?) | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:10 kranten wrote: What strategies are you talking about? I can only think of cc first and hatch first in ZvP, you can punish any other greed. You can't really punish a cc first anyway unless you're metagaming and according to Belial's ZvP guide a gateway expand can scout your hatch first, throw a forge and cannon rush anyway. When you lose games because you're not able to FFE it's your problem for not being able to gateway expand, it's completely viable. (unless you're talking about Tal'darim, but what protoss doesn't veto that map?) If you open 13 gate (since people seem to think thats the safest build vs R), and they roll zerg. All they have to do is a proper speedling opening to stop you from ever expanding. totally fair edit: 1 gate expand is viable in pvz, but its not viable in pvr when r is z, we can't perform the build order properly because we wont know to do it untill a minute or so in when we scout them | ||
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Dakure
United States513 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:51 Th30nE wrote: if you actualy READ what i said instead of blasting off irrelevant whining, i said 9 PYLON SCOUT!, then you can make your decision based on what you scout, which is what you should do regardless, if you build blind you deserv an autoloss On 4 player maps, it can be the case that you don't find your opponent in time to determine if you want to gateway or nexus-first (or FFE or whatever), even if you 9-scout. I agree with the OP in that the loading screen should already have the race that the random player has rolled. Look at League of Legends, among other games. If you choose random, it randomly picks a character for you. In the loading screen everyone sees the character rolled and not a question-mark or something that says Random. | ||
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BearStorm
United States795 Posts
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chindy
82 Posts
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Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:13 BearStorm wrote: Gateway core openings are just as viable as FFE. On certain maps I feel like they are even stronger. Then why is only 1/100 games of pvz non ffe? Literally 99% of pvz games in tournaments are ffe. If they were stronger, pros would use them more often. | ||
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Nihilnovi
Sweden696 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:51 Th30nE wrote: if you actualy READ what i said instead of blasting off irrelevant whining, i said 9 PYLON SCOUT!, then you can make your decision based on what you scout, which is what you should do regardless, if you build blind you deserv an autoloss I disagree with this topic with every fiber of my body, since there is a perfectly good 13 gate build that works vs all races at high master+ when you 9 pylon scout, regardless of how unlucky you are with spawns. However, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You cant ffe vs random because the 9 pylon vs zerg has to be on the low ground, there is literally 1 solid and safe opening available and a lot of P just dont know it or have forgot how to gateway exp vs zerg and play vs early speedlings instead of 3 hatch. Either way, the fact that this topic isn't closed is really disheartening and makes me lose quite a bit of respect for the tl admins, since its nothing more than a huge whinefest from people(mostly P) unwilling to learn followups vs zerg after opening gateway first. Please deal with it and stop whining already, there are TONS of resources in the SC2 strategy forum here on TL to get you started, just by scimming the front page i see Naniwas gateway exp into phoenix play, go learn that, you can do it vs random that spawns as zerg on ANY map in the pool with 9 pylon scout and gate on 13. Against T and P, well, 13 gate is standard anyway. | ||
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Zetter
Germany629 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:05 xrapture wrote: you know how awful that logic is? We are FORCED to use sub optimal builds that we don't want to just because someone picks random? Awesome. Random makes it fun for one guy while not fun for the other, while if random just randomly chose your race no one would suffer. There is no legitimate argument for random hiding your race. None. I'm also forced to play a style I don't want to play when Terran 111s or when Zerg goes Mutas. Should we ban that as well? | ||
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Seiferz
United States640 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:15 Tao367 wrote: Then why is only 1/100 games of pvz non ffe? Literally 99% of pvz games in tournaments are ffe. If they were stronger, pros would use them more often. Gate openings are actually quite strong. The difference from 2 years ago PvZ is that you do in fact make a forge because cannons are just plane necessary. | ||
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Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:17 Zetter wrote: I'm also forced to play a style I don't want to play when Terran 111s or when Zerg goes Mutas. Should we ban that as well? That's completely different and you know it. This is not anywhere near comparable to random. | ||
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Silencioseu
Cyprus493 Posts
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silentsod
United States198 Posts
On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote: Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start. I've never heard of random being banned from tournaments. If anything people don't play random in tournaments because you're at a disadvantage for playing random and not getting to hone your skills for just one race. Blizzard decided to make it so that random players get to show "Random" on the loading screen. Deal with it like we have to deal with learning three times the match ups and mechanics you do. "Suboptimal builds" being a problem - scout early or choose a build which diverges post-scout based on what the race is like random players do when we match against a random player. | ||
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Zetter
Germany629 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:18 Tao367 wrote: That's completely different and you know it. This is not anywhere near comparable to random. It's perfectly comparable. The only difference you have as protoss is that you don't go forge->expand or expand->forge, but gate->expand->forge or whatever else seems fit. You still have the freedom to follow it up with any style you want. | ||
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Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:21 Zetter wrote: It's perfectly comparable. The only difference you have as protoss is that you don't go forge->expand or expand->forge, but gate->expand->forge or whatever else seems fit. You still have the freedom to follow it up with any style you want. Point is, when you see zerg/terran on the loading screen you know full well that they're possibilities of potential strategies your opponent could use. When random, early game strategies are that much more deadly. | ||
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
You are like whining about first world problems | ||
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Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10107 Posts
There is no handicap. If you are a silver terran player, a silver protoss player, and a plat zerg player, you will be stuck at high silver till your get better at your worst races. As simple as that. | ||
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perestain
Germany308 Posts
So since its not possible to play a proper early game vs random anyways I usually just fool around with some quick cheese or simply quit if my initial race guess was incorrect. I want to learn the matchups, and don't have time to try out how PvT builds work out against Zerg or the other way around, or how to play from behind from a safety build that I would not do in any matchup. | ||
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