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On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
You are like whining about first world problems
Yes, pretty much. A random player will have significantly less experience in different situations than someone who focuses on one race. MMR doesn't really balance it out, from my experience random players I get matched with generally tend to seem like they play on a bit of a lower level than I do. It's not like there's many random players on the ladder anyways. Ladder isn't the biggest deal, losing a game out of 50 or 100 where you played a random as P that spawned Z and opened with a terrible build is so insignificant. Also... if you recall recent tournaments you'll remember the gateway into expand openings that Sase/Naniwa displayed that performed quite well. Learn that build if you're so concerned with facing randoms on ladder that may spawn as Z.
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On August 20 2012 06:34 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
You are like whining about first world problems Yes, pretty much. A random player will have significantly less experience in different situations than someone who focuses on one race. MMR doesn't really balance it out, from my experience random players I get matched with generally tend to seem like they play on a bit of a lower level than I do. It's not like there's many random players on the ladder anyways. Ladder isn't the biggest deal, losing a game out of 50 or 100 where you played a random as P that spawned Z and opened with a terrible build is so insignificant. Also... if you recall recent tournaments you'll remember the gateway into expand openings that Sase/Naniwa displayed that performed quite well. Learn that build if you're so concerned with facing randoms on ladder that may spawn as Z.
Actually, if they are worse players than you, why are they around your MMR ?
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I can't help but laugh at the people who say they are mad they have to prepare a 4th build order to deal with randoms. Think about your own comment for a second. Think about that from a random player's perspective.
Oh, now instead of 4 build orders, there are 12 that I need to know as a random player. ( zvz, zvp, zvt, pvz, pvp, pvt, tvz, tvp, tvz, zvR, pvR, tvR )
Cry me a river. My lack of thousands of games played as a single race will benefit you when I have to play a race I only play 33% of the time and instead of knowing 4 different build orders I need to know 12. Everyone saying that Random is unbalanced because of what it does to them as a T/P/Z player, look at it as a R player and think about that for a little while before you post. It's an extra element of the game that I love to see now as this game is 2 years old and i need something different than playing the same 3 build orders all day every day.
Thank random players for playing random and allowing you to step up your scouting skills and refine build orders.
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On August 20 2012 06:23 Tao367 wrote:Point is, when you see zerg/terran on the loading screen you know full well that they're possibilities of potential strategies your opponent could use. When random, early game strategies are that much more deadly.
No.
When you play against random they don't get any magical new openings. Terran means: 1rax gasless expand, 2rax gasless expand, mass rax allin, proxy rax, gas opening. After you scout you cross the odd ones out. Zerg means: Early pool, Gas->pool->expand, expand->pool->gas, pool->gas->expand. After you scout you cross the odd ones out. Protoss means: Cannon rush, Proxy Gates, 1gas opening (4gate basically), 2gas opening. After you scout you cross the odd ones out. Random has the exact same possible openings and not a single opening more.
Every race has so many openings that they are all deadly when unscouted, because you can't just guess what your opponent does, even if you know his race.
Or tell me, why should a proxy rax by a random player be more difficult to hold than a proxy rax by a terran player? Either you scout and have an easy time to hold or you don't scout and have a tough time to hold. Don't tell me it's more difficult to scout a random player.
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are people bashing random, really feel they lost when lose because they were playing against a random?
some people are so full of themselves.
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There are so many problems with random that make me want to leave every single time I find a random opponent...
First off the obvious:
As Protoss you need to know a build for every matchup that is absolutely identical up until you scout.
I for one am not willing to learn a build like that and 3 different transitions, it will defenitely be weaker than any of my current builds and therefore I will only use it vs random, about 5% of my games..
Also it had to be 4Gate, 6Pool, Proxy Rax, 5Rax etc etc etc proof, which is close to impossible.
The second big problem is not as easy to see but just as significant.
Say I like Terran the most but play Random.
Now I have this friend who plays Zerg and we play a lot of 1v1s for fun and because he wants to improve.
Now me TvZ is by far my best matchup.
So my opponents are screwed whenever it is TvZ.
They simply don't stand a chance, my PvP ZvP ZvZ etc etc match me way lower than my Terran skills and especially TvZ.
It is very frustrating to get roflstomped, it is way more frustrating to me when it happens vs Random.
Why not make it so that you can check a box, "I want to know my opponents race if he is random" "I don't" and then Random players get to check if they are cool with both or only one.
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On August 20 2012 06:32 perestain wrote:
Random players might believe they learn all matchups, but infact they almost never face a proper opening against the race they roll.
So since its not possible to play a proper early game vs random anyways I usually just fool around with some quick cheese or simply quit if my initial race guess was incorrect. I want to learn the matchups, and don't have time to try out how PvT builds work out against Zerg or the other way around, or how to play from behind from a safety build that I would not do in any matchup.
Not even close, PvZ is the only matchup where it's affected and even then, I've played against plenty of FFE, especially on 2 player maps. I actually have probably played against less cheese than most players just due to the fact that they don't know which cheese to pick.
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Random is and has always been a legitimate choice. There have also been some Random pros for a time (even though they didn't go super far AFAIK). You just have to deal with it and develop tactics against the fourth race.
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On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
Complete Bullshit, if I would start playing random on a new account, for the next MONTH I would win 100% of my games as Protoss while losing every single game with Terran.
So the game is already decided the second we spawn.
How is that fun OR fair for my opponents!?
You are like whining about first world problems
Yeah now shit sherlock, that is the case every single time someone coplains about a PC game.
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On August 20 2012 06:37 jinorazi wrote:
are people bashing random, really feel they lost when lose because they were playing against a random?
some people are so full of themselves.
Yeah that's how I feel. It's not like we didn't know about randoms until recently. We've been playing against them for years and should have developed good openings against them by now. Obviously you can't be optimal vs random due to early scouting and building placement, but it's not the biggest difference.
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Scout earlier
they have more matchups to learn than you
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On August 20 2012 06:35 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:34 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
You are like whining about first world problems Yes, pretty much. A random player will have significantly less experience in different situations than someone who focuses on one race. MMR doesn't really balance it out, from my experience random players I get matched with generally tend to seem like they play on a bit of a lower level than I do. It's not like there's many random players on the ladder anyways. Ladder isn't the biggest deal, losing a game out of 50 or 100 where you played a random as P that spawned Z and opened with a terrible build is so insignificant. Also... if you recall recent tournaments you'll remember the gateway into expand openings that Sase/Naniwa displayed that performed quite well. Learn that build if you're so concerned with facing randoms on ladder that may spawn as Z. Actually, if they are worse players than you, why are they around your MMR ?
That was a personal observation based upon my own experience and the least relevant part of my post. People complaining about this are so full of themselves, no one owes it to you to let you know which race they spawned as. There definitely are openings for every race that transition into the mid-game well enough regardless of what race your opponent is. Also for whoever said random is banned from tournaments because of an unfair advantage, it's not. Guess what? It's just that no pros play random because they can't compete at the highest level with it due to how much extra work they need to invest. Every pro that has started as random has picked a race eventually, and no random player has advanced far in a major tournament.
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On August 20 2012 06:42 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:28 BlackGosu wrote:
The handicap in random itself outweights the beenfit of the element of surprise.
Complete Bullshit, if I would start playing random on a new account, for the next MONTH I would win 100% of my games as Protoss while losing every single game with Terran. So the game is already decided the second we spawn. How is that fun OR fair for my opponents!?
Now that's bs.
When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. Also naturally you will not be gold-level on your off race when you're masters on your main. It will be more like masters on main and diamond on off. And in that case your winrate with terran will be at about 30% while your winrate with toss will be at about 70-75% to begin with.
I don't complain and I don't see my opponents complaining about the match being already decided with my PvT winrate being about 33% and my PvZ winrate about 63%. It's only natural to have good and bad matchups as a player. And with some players it's even more extreme.
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On August 20 2012 06:45 BearStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:37 jinorazi wrote:
are people bashing random, really feel they lost when lose because they were playing against a random?
some people are so full of themselves. Yeah that's how I feel. It's not like we didn't know about randoms until recently. We've been playing against them for years and should have developed good openings against them by now. Obviously you can't be optimal vs random due to early scouting and building placement, but it's not the biggest difference.
The thing is, it is a "fourth race", you cannot play against random like you play against any of the other races.
However it is not 25% of the players, not even close. It is more like 5-7% and not worth putting time in.
HOWEVER it is possible to play against random like 5 times in a row and get frustrated.
Then I put time in it and think about a build figure it out, lost a day of SC2 and I don't play against random for the rest of the week.
Wow, why would that upset me? Must be something wrong with me.
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I am a diamond random player who enjoys playing all 3 races, and I love the fact that I can go random without having the other person know my race. You know why? It forces people to think on their feet. I feel like one of my biggest strengths is being able to analyze a situation on the fly and make decisions based on what I scout/see, so I love the ability to force my opponent to do the same, instead of just going through the motions of some rehearsed build they've learned from a pro or from Liquipedia. It keeps the game from being stale (for me).
What the people that are attracted to these "random is imba" whine threads like moths to a light bulb need to realize is that they're complaining about the wrong things. For example, when you say, "Random is given an unfair information advantage at the beginning," what you really mean is, "It hurts my ego to know that this guy I just got matched against on the ladder can play all 3 races as well as I can play one."
It is absolutely ludicrous and illogical to claim, "It's their choice to play Random, but that should have no affect on how I play the game." This is pretty much the same thing as saying, "It's their choice if they want to proxy 2 gateways and chrono zealots into my base, but that shouldn't affect my decision to fast expand."
The bottom line is this - if going random is so overpowered, why aren't YOU doing it? If you're not sure of the answer, I'll go ahead and tell you: it's too difficult. We random players enjoy playing all the races, and as a result of not picking a race, we're all actually ranked lower on the ladder than we would be otherwise. There is a reason everyone in favor of random staying the way it is uses the argument, "...but they have to learn 9 matchups instead of 3." It's because it's the only argument needed to justify the way random is currently implemented into the game. As a random player, I have to learn 6 extra matchups. This means learning all the new hotkeys, knowing tons more timings, knowing what units work well in given situations, knowing how much things cost, how long things take to build, etc. etc.
It's a heck of a lot of work, and you know what you have to do to negate ALL of that extra effort? Send a scout earlier than usual. It's destructive to your own playstyle to complain about this kind of thing instead of just dealing with it by learning to think on your feet.
While I hate reading everything all the whiny little kids here have to say, one thing I absolutely LOVE about these kinds of threads is that as long as Blizzard doesn't implement what you're saying, I can laugh, sit back, and enjoy this amazing game the way it was intended to be.
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The only true test of SC2 skill is RvR  Those are always the most fun matches to watch as well.
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On August 20 2012 05:55 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 04:36 Sepheren wrote:
Random is definitely an unfair advantage. You begin the game with information dissymmetry, the random player has more information than his opponent. That right there is justification for why it should not exist the way it does.
Random should be an option which relieves the player of having to choose his/her race, yet does not hide that information from the matched opponent.
I have no opinions on WHO plays random, or their personal playstyles. My issue is with the game design, which is flawed. Well put. This reason is exactly why random is banned from tournaments. You the random player start with an advantage over your opponent from the start.
Actually I wanna rant more at this. Because the notion that random has an advantage at the start is apparently so overwhelming, that no one plays random competitively.
Just some figures:
Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random.
Anything below and you're probably just much worse than your opponent. I love the way this thread was summarized: first world problems.
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On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout.
Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though  . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it.
I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make)
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On August 20 2012 06:39 Utukka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:32 perestain wrote:
Random players might believe they learn all matchups, but infact they almost never face a proper opening against the race they roll.
So since its not possible to play a proper early game vs random anyways I usually just fool around with some quick cheese or simply quit if my initial race guess was incorrect. I want to learn the matchups, and don't have time to try out how PvT builds work out against Zerg or the other way around, or how to play from behind from a safety build that I would not do in any matchup.
Not even close, PvZ is the only matchup where it's affected and even then, I've played against plenty of FFE, especially on 2 player maps. I actually have probably played against less cheese than most players just due to the fact that they don't know which cheese to pick.
Your anecdotical evidence is subjective and not relevant,
lets look at statistics:
Against random, you can play
a) a safe-against-everything bullshit buildorder, hoping R somehow cheeses you (proper earlygame for the matchup 0% of the time)
b) a XvZ Build, hoping its zerg (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times)
c) a XvT Build (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times)
d) a XvP Build (proper build for the matchup 33% of all the times)
So you will get a proper earlygame in less than 33% of all games, which makes random worse than any other race to learn proper matchups.
Even if protoss for example can combine c) and d) by early scouting, its quite apparent that you will still get a lot of bullshit games if random is involved.
And I simply don't have time for such shenanigans. I'd rather cannonrush or quit instantly and practice the matchups of my race against non-random players instead.
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When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more.
That's why I said "the first month"
Also naturally you will not be gold-level on your off race when you're masters on your main.
Never played a single game of Terran other than Monobattles, trust me I would (this is eu ladder I am talking about)
It will be more like masters on main and diamond on off.
nope.
And in that case your winrate with terran will be at about 30% while your winrate with toss will be at about 70-75% to begin with.
nope
I don't complain and I don't see my opponents complaining about the match being already decided with my PvT winrate being about 33% and my PvZ winrate about 63%.
Sticking to one race, you get somewhat even practice in all matchups.
I think my 2000 Protoss games would make me A LOT better with Protoss than I am with Terran on 0 games.
It's only natural to have good and bad matchups as a player. And with some players it's even more extreme.
Yup.
Say ZvP was my best match-up and Protoss have to play a build they are not comfortable with (gateway expand vs zerg). How is that any fun for them?
And if you say that you don't have a problem playing against random, well good for you. I do and you can not convince me that I have no right to or whatever it is you are trying to tell me.
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EPT
