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On August 20 2012 07:23 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though  . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right? nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
...that is extremely discouraging and repulsive. do what needs to be done, in this case, knowing what your opponent is doing. i think my build being little bit off beat to know what my opponent is doing is worth it. if the build i'm doing requires me to scout after gateway, it better be damn sure that it doesn't need the extra little scout timing.
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On August 20 2012 07:23 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right? nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
I didn't know a gateway/core/zealot being a half a second slower correctly described a 'messed up build.'
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On August 20 2012 07:23 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:19 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 Zetter wrote:On August 20 2012 07:13 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:07 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 07:03 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 06:52 mostevil wrote:On August 20 2012 05:56 Avicularia wrote:
It's also often really easy to cheese random, just 'cos most of them don't scout. Dunno about that, I get 6 pooled and 4 gated a daft proportion of the time. Free wins for me though . And I always announce my race. However I don't think less of randoms who don't announce and I don't care if the game puts it on the front screen. There's only an argument for it in PvZ and even then its a weak argument from those who only want to play current meta (or this weird TL thing of having one build per matchup - even with 9 matchups to go at that sounds fecking boring). There are pleanty of safe ways to open gateway vs z, especially on the bigger modern maps where fast pools struggle to arrive unscouted. I've had a few guys claim other randoms have lied about thier race but I've never known it. I think the issue is there are two kinds of randoms, those who play to the best of their ability to get more from the game. And those who play random to blow off steam and cheese everyone. It's all valid anyway, if your morally superior macro build dies to cheese it's a crappy build (or a dice roll you should be happy with to make) Ok, tell me the Protoss Build that is safe against EVERY SINGLE CHEESE of every race and can keep up with the macro builds. start with regular 1gate/cyber and adjust according to scouting information? going nexus first is a risk and has nothing to do with random. and to say FFE is the only viable build against zerg 1) blame blizzard, 2) work on your gateway fe because i'm 100% sure that not being able to FFE against a zerg is going to be the sole reason why a protoss would lose. Ok, 12 Gate or 13? What Gas timings? Can I afford to Chrono Probes 3 times or will he Proxy Gate, Oh how do I deal with Cannonrush on a 4player maps if he sends 2 Probes? Do I need to send 2 Probes to be safe every single game? So I scout him and constantly scout for proxies because it could be PvP, that makes it really easy to go up against Hatch/Command Center first. 13gate. Even on a 4player map you see your opponent on gas latest if you go pylon-gate scout. 9Scout and 13 Gate?! why not? oh wait, dont tell me, it puts you so much behind that you will end up losing the game 10 minute later. am i right? nobody wants to 9scout because it messes up their build. most ppl dont have builds for 9scout.
Unless you're gm (where you won't play against randoms anyways) the 9scout won't affect your build at all. Especially considering you're already playing against a random player, who just can't be on your level.
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Wait what the fuck? I play at masters and 9 scout 90% of the time. At the top pro level it might make a significant difference but even high masters it's not going to matter. It's funny seeing people think that they actually play at a high enough level that a probe or chrono boost will determine the outcome of a game.
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On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary.
Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
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On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin.
It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play). If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better.
So lets see, you play random and win 1/3 of your games when you get the race you play (only because of the huge advantage you got from picking random!), or you can continue playing the race you play and win around 50%. Sounds like a good deal to me.
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
Nonono ! You chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" playing a fixed race and having it announced on the loading screen.
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
Is it even a disadvantage on a game to game basis? Seeing as the ladder sets you up with players of your own skill, you are playing someone who is as good with random as you are with your own race. Except they have the advantage of you being blind.
Personally, if it's a 2 player map I just scout immediately and take the mineral disadvantage. If it's not, I go 1rax FE and hope they didn't spawn zerg because I really hate 1rax FEing against zerg.
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On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better.
Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess.
What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her.
If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then.
And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more.
Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words.
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I started playing random because I felt it would make for the biggest challenge to get into masters. If someone asked me what race I was, I always told them.
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On August 20 2012 07:48 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better. Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess. What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her. If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then. And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more. Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words.
That's called smurfing, except using random as a means to do it. You lose more than you win intentionally, but you win convincingly in those that you do win because your opponents are inferior. Anyone can do the same thing without picking random by just leaving 2/3 of their games.
Like you do realize you're basically resigning to the fact you're going to only win 33% of the time right? Just straight up basic smurfing right there.
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On August 20 2012 07:46 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. Is it even a disadvantage on a game to game basis? Seeing as the ladder sets you up with players of your own skill, you are playing someone who is as good with random as you are with your own race. Except they have the advantage of you being blind. Personally, if it's a 2 player map I just scout immediately and take the mineral disadvantage. If it's not, I go 1rax FE and hope they didn't spawn zerg because I really hate 1rax FEing against zerg.
Yes, because you may have a weaker race, you may suffer against certain timing attacks because you don't get as much experience as someone who only plays one race; you constantly have to change your mindset based on what race it gives you, etc. While you play be playing against people close to your MMR, it can be harder to progress and move up.
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On August 20 2012 07:52 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:48 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better. Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess. What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her. If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then. And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more. Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words. That's called smurfing, except using random as a means to do it. You lose more than you win intentionally, but you win convincingly in those that you do win because your opponents are inferior. Anyone can do the same thing without picking random by just leaving 2/3 of their games.
Are you KIDDING ME!?
I never said anything about losing intentionally.
I just play Protoss at a pretty high level and Terran really shitty.
My Zerg is pretty ok as well.
SO I LOSE 1/3rd of the games because i suck as Terran.
It has nothing to do with smurfing or anything like that
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As an occasional random, I use it as a manner check. I give a "gl hf!", and if I get one back, I tell him my race.
It's just part of the game. You're playing a weak opponent (because he doesn't know the lategame of the race he rolled as well as you probably do), who has an early advantage of hiding his race for the first 2 minutes or so.
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I hear a lot of randoms on TeamLiquid say that they announce their race at the beginning of the game, but I've never encoutered a single random in my history of StarCraft playing that has done that. Either some people are just not telling the truth, or I've just not played against any. Probably the second one, but still... I'd expect to see more.
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(zerg)
I always 9 scout against random. Problem solved.
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On August 20 2012 07:29 IcedBacon wrote:
Wait what the fuck? I play at masters and 9 scout 90% of the time. At the top pro level it might make a significant difference but even high masters it's not going to matter. It's funny seeing people think that they actually play at a high enough level that a probe or chrono boost will determine the outcome of a game.
Yeah I 9 scout too and I don't feel it hurts my match ups at all. The only time the 9 scout really hurts is if you are playing PvP on altar. Even in Diamond you still need to be as fast as possible to hold off the 4gates on that map.
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I never really understood why Blizz doesnt solve this simple problem by revealing what the race the random got while loading the game. After all, its already loading the specific race units onto the map so its not like the server doesnt know. and if the server knows why not show it to everyone else?
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Well I just watched the first 5 minutes of your replay and nothing about it seemed broken to me. I'm a 1300 masters zerg and I'm pretty sad that you just wasted my time with your newb league imba complaints. You should really make more of an effort to accept that you don't know what you're talking about for this game. It doesn't matter what happens after initial scouting of normal things because you have established, and quite early on, that you're in a fairly normaal looking ZvP and the fact that he was random was not in any way exploited. His play looks totally standard, btw. Your one gate no wall off is non-standard and outright bad, btw.
tl;dr = Shut up 
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you will never lose a game simply because your opponent spawned random. For every race you are against random so long as you actually scout you have solid builds that only deviate after you scout their race.
in my opinion people just like to have a reason for why they lost other than their own bad play, people don't like to face their own inadequacies and its a nice excuse, but in reality no you didn't lose because you had to pylon scout, or went pool first or whatever.
if you just do one strategy for each matchup every game then you'll have problems versus random, so try and learn some new strategies. so many protoss players seem to think that if they don't ffe they automatically lose
the funniest thing is when the other player loses and then tries to call you out on playing an OP race xD
@ice bacon above, yeah what i do is often i just dedicate a bit of time to one race to get that roughly in line with my others.
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EPT
