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On August 20 2012 07:55 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:52 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:48 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:43 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 07:21 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 07:15 IcedBacon wrote:On August 20 2012 06:56 rEalGuapo wrote:When you start playing random your winrates will start evening out more. That's why I said "the first month" Guess what, if I play on a new account as any race I'll have close to a 100% win rate until I start hitting masters. Smurfing, ranking up new accounts, and other shit occurs where people end up playing opponents that stand no chance against them. It happens, and random has nothing to do with it. Terrible argument. Yeah if I start a new account I will get what 15 freewins? After that I get matched vs Master level players. If I play Random I will not get to play against Masters in the first month, of that I am 100% certain. The simple reason being that I will have 1/3 of my games freewin but I defenitely lose to low diamonds with Terran for a long time, probably even to Platin. It's funny because you don't realize how pointless of an argument this is. So what if you want to win the majority of the time, in 33% of your games? (When you happen to land the race you actually know how to play) If I wanted to stomp kids inferior to me as one race I could leave two thirds of my games and take an easy win for the rest. If you play random with that intention and no desire to improve with the other two races then have fun with that, doesn't mean random is broken at all. In ladder you constantly face people who are better than you even if they have the same MMR. And guess what, facing people better than you is what makes you better. Oh, you completely misunderstood me I guess. What I am trying to say is that my opponent doesn't have a say in the outcome, since we are extremely uneven matched 66% of the time. And that certainly is no fun for him/her. If I roll Protoss I win. If I roll Terran I lose. Zerg is pretty in between, since I was master with it about a year ago but didn't play a lot of Zerg since then. And getting Zerg up to the same level as my Protoss would take me over a month for sure, Terran will probably take me half a year, maybe more. Reading through your post I should not have taken the time to answer since you are not looking for an answer you just want to make me look stupid by twisting my words. That's called smurfing, except using random as a means to do it. You lose more than you win intentionally, but you win convincingly in those that you do win because your opponents are inferior. Anyone can do the same thing without picking random by just leaving 2/3 of their games. Are you KIDDING ME!? I never said anything about losing intentionally. I just play Protoss at a pretty high level and Terran really shitty. My Zerg is pretty ok as well. SO I LOSE 1/3rd of the games because i suck as Terran. It has nothing to do with smurfing or anything like that
Alright so two races you're decent at. You really think losing all the games you roll Terran as will tank your MMR enough that every opponent you play as P and Z will be 'extremely uneven matched'? It won't, and at most you'll be playing people slightly worse than you usually do. Barely any GMs win 66% of their games. You'll definitely get outplayed even when you roll P or Z.
Now in contrast, if you can only win 33% of your games, then yes that's what I was talking about being essentially the same as smurfing. You know you're going to lose as the other races but you'll win as your main because that amount of losing will certainly drop your MMR down. Anyone actually trying to get better will be able to take the lower MMR opportunity to improve at the other two races. But it's hardly optimal for learning the other races and yes you'll destroy opponents when you get your main. You learn optimally by playing one of the other races from the lowest level you can win at until it's comparable in skill to your main, then do it with the last race. Then you play random and everyone is happy because you're around equally good at all races.
The point was that if you play random and end up playing people at a lower MMR because you suck as the other two races, it's the same thing as what smurfs do and it doesn't mean random is broken. There are ways to go about getting better at all races without playing people much worse than you if that's what concerns you so much.
Have fun with this thread though, keep complaining about random. I have no issues with it because it's not a big deal.
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
You're just being a shit player man. The burden to know what you opponent is doing and to come out ahead against him is ALWAYS on you as someone who is PLAYING THIS GAME. PERIOD. If you have to scout a little bit earlier, boo fucking hoo. Everybody else sucks it up and comes out ahead because random players are universally shit. I swear you're just consoling yourself by trying to turn this, which isn't even close to a molehill, into an entire mountain range. I delight in knowing that your own laziness and feeling entitled to not have to adapt to them is going to make you continue to lose games to them. I don't think you have much of a future in SC2 because you have an extremely self-convenient way of looking at your difficulties, rather than an adaptive and forward moving attitude. In any event, I'm sure our community would appreciate it if you'd stop creating god awful threads. I legit feel like you have to be a troll because this is so ridiculous.
User was warned for this post
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The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course.
It's a game. People just need to understand that not let themselves get bogged down in all this other garbage about fairness and balance of ladder.
You don't see this problem in the competitive scene so it's actually not a problem with the game. Just suck it up and play it for fun, or stop playing and move on with your life because this game is not for you.
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On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it.
why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont
i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use
if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind
if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there
The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course.
wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race
unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time
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was there just as much of a cry in bw too? i dont recall
(i know random pickers were kicked in custom 1v1 race most of time, but because of match up practice...ladder is different)
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On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me.
That's the most ridiculous mindset ever.
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No because they would simply ban randoms from their games. :/
"Race?
Race?
No ran"
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On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever.
So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion.
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On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there Show nested quote +The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time
"learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent.
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Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned.
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On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion.
What's ridiculous about their mindset? They skip getting really good with one race to gain the advantage of being able to mess with your head and perhaps get you to play overly safe or overly cheesy to make up for it.
You in turn have the advantage of being practiced with one race against all the races, which should make you better prepared for whatever they throw at you.
Scout early, scout actively, and play accordingly. It's not hard.
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On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion.
Why is it a disadvantage to have to scout your opponent? How late do you normally scout that this is even an issue? :x
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On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned.
why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly because opponent's job will be to disrupt that flow. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not pick on random players.
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On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent.
below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway
also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt
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On August 20 2012 08:38 NrG.ZaM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion. Why is it a disadvantage to have to scout your opponent? How late do you normally scout that this is even an issue? :x
Lol?
It's not a disadvantage having to scout, it's a disadvantage because you don't know their race until you scout them. On a 4 player map this is especially bad if unless you luck out and scout them first otherwise you cut your economy a lot by doing a super early scout or you scout them super late and either way it screws up your opening build order. in ZvP for example you need to know that your opponent is Zerg before you even drop your first pylon, if you don't then you won't be able to FFE and you will likely be behind in economy from the very first moment of the game by no fault of your own.
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On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there Show nested quote +The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time
What?
Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that.
At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random?
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Everybody has forgotten how to 1 gate expand. The players I play on the ladder - very few complain, and most who do aren't gm.
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On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random?
I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. The only way you could not think it's a huge advantage is if you're simply not good enough at this game to understand the importance of information.
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On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players.
Quick answer?
I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight.
I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents..
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I'm always very impressed by people I face who are random cause it means they can do what I do with all races which is really impressive to me 
That being said, it is kinda annoying. I'm very glad I rarely face random players cause it adds this element of...well, randomness to the game that doesn't really belong in a game of sc2 imo.
Blizzard could of course instantly solve this if they showed us what race the random player got when the game begins...God that would be nice! Even more of a challenge for the random player of course, but it's a good kind of challenge and being random is already a challenge to overcome in itself.
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EPT
