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On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random?
because i hate playing Toss and Terran
its not just 50-75 minerals, its alot more then that even just looking at lsot mining time and in a ZvZ that means my opponent is 150 minerals ahead of me which is huge
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On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage.
I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random.
Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop.
The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop.
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On August 20 2012 08:44 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players. Quick answer? I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight. I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents..
Sounds like it's your issue, not the random player's.
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On August 20 2012 08:45 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? because i hate playing Toss and Terran its not just 50-75 minerals, its alot more then that even just looking at lsot mining time and in a ZvZ that means my opponent is 150 minerals ahead of me which is huge
Why don't you use the 9scout to block the hatchery if it's such a big deal? Most people don't do it anymore but you can open 15h in ZvZ - if your opponent attempts 15h you can block the hatch, if he opens 15p 16h you've evened out anyway.
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On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly because opponent's job will be to disrupt that flow. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not pick on random players.
As I and many other players have stated already, we have absolutely nothing against the random players. Were debating the mechanic here. Terran basically have nothing to fear vs random, due to 1rax fe neon viable for all matchups. I'm not sure about zvt or zvz,but I think 15 pool 14 hatch is "okay", for all matchups (correct me if I'm wrong). Protoss however have massive changes to their early game depending on their opponent, in which no 1 build is safe vs all 3 matchups.
Please don't claim that we're picking on the players themselves, because we aren't. At least not me.
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Well, with the one-gate expands recently being done by people like Naniwa and Squirtle, all your problems are solved with PvZ.
Seriously, just use the one-gate expand opening (9 pylon, 13 gate, 15 assimilator) and by that time you will know what you're up against and you can branch out from there.
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On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop.
Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR.
There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck.
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I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe.
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On August 20 2012 08:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:45 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? because i hate playing Toss and Terran its not just 50-75 minerals, its alot more then that even just looking at lsot mining time and in a ZvZ that means my opponent is 150 minerals ahead of me which is huge Why don't you use the 9scout to block the hatchery if it's such a big deal? Most people don't do it anymore but you can open 15h in ZvZ - if your opponent attempts 15h you can block the hatch, if he opens 15p 16h you've evened out anyway.
with a drone scout im pretty sure 15 pool into hatch still puts you ahead considering all the minerals you dont have because your drone was wasting time on the other side of the map instead of mining
and what if he does some early pool? you need as many drones as possible to actually hold it and the forewarning doesnt really do anything for you
I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe.
hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so)
plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent
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On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt
Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways.
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On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR. There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck.
What race do you play?
I play all three races individually, and random
TvR: I go 1rax CC depot scout.
PvR: I go 1gate expo (nexus after core) with pylonscout
ZvR: I go 9scout ->15hatch - only don't get 15hatch if I see early pool.
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16 pool 15 hatch is safe vs all types of cheeses and actually puts you ahead in larva because of the queen timing. 1 rax expand is a pretty common build in all matchups anyways. Most people who complain are protosses who are unable (or have forgotten) to 1 gate expand. (even with the recent developments of builds by players such as Naniwa and Squirtle)
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On August 20 2012 08:49 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways.
What if it's a 4player map and you scout them last, now all of that is out the window.
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On August 20 2012 08:46 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:44 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players. Quick answer? I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight. I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents.. Sounds like it's your issue, not the random player's.
Well if 60% of players have the same issue maybe there is a better way than saying "fuck you, deal with it".
Something like... Oh I don't know.. Show the race because transparently it does not make any difference according to you glorious random players
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On August 20 2012 08:49 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways.
its not that cut and dry with blocking a 15 hatch like that, and if your only slightly better then your opponent then he wins because of the leas he got early game
plus in a ZvZ he has better Overlord spread since he knew he could have them whereever he wanted and you couldnt
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On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent
What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters.
Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall.
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On August 20 2012 08:42 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:38 NrG.ZaM wrote:On August 20 2012 08:30 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 08:28 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 07:20 Danglars wrote:
It's not just you, in MANY respects you must treat this as a 4th matchup. The burden is on you to find a compromise between scouting your opponent's race and proceeding in an efficient, viable build. PvZ a lot complain that there is no viable build alternative, generating anger. Randoms argue that they are forced to learn 9 (or 16) matchups to their opponent's 3 (or 4) to meet them on same skill level. That's the basic summary. Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. That's the most ridiculous mindset ever. So is the one random players have. At least I try to explain my opinion. Why is it a disadvantage to have to scout your opponent? How late do you normally scout that this is even an issue? :x Lol? It's not a disadvantage having to scout, it's a disadvantage because you don't know their race until you scout them. On a 4 player map this is especially bad if unless you luck out and scout them first otherwise you cut your economy a lot by doing a super early scout or you scout them super late and either way it screws up your opening build order. in ZvP for example you need to know that your opponent is Zerg before you even drop your first pylon, if you don't then you won't be able to FFE and you will likely be behind in economy from the very first moment of the game by no fault of your own.
You don't have to FFE pvz though, there are perfectly valid gateway expand builds. On 4 player maps you can send out a second scout to figure out what they are, it's not that big a deal. It's not like you need to send one of your initial 6 workers to scout, just send one after pylon, one after gateway or something, there's no way you'll still be in the dark by the time you have to choose whether you want to expand or tech up or something.
And saying it's a disadvantage because you don't know their race until you scout them is saying it's a disadvantage that you have to scout. Throwing additional conditions on doesn't change what you're whining about, if you complain about having to scout their race, you're still complaining about having to scout. People have brought up situations of proxy gate/rax that you apparently have to see in order to react to, but its only bad if a random is doing it? Just fucking scout their empty main and deal with it, not a problem, you figured out what's going on regardless of their race by scouting. Your build up to that point should be insanely similar already to begin with, it isn't much to ask that you scout before branching off into race-specific strategies.
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On August 20 2012 08:51 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:49 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:42 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 GolemMadness wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time "learn one strat for each match up"? Unless you're in bronze, you can't do that. You need to react to what your opponent does. Incidentally, no, you don't start out with a big lead 90% of the time. It's more like 90% of the time you DON'T start out with a lead. Terran can always go depot rax and scout while waiting for their barracks to finish. They're at no disadvantage. Zerg can scout before deciding to go pool or hatch first. Pretty much the ONLY time random has a realistic chance of getting an "advantage" is in ZVP because protoss may have to go gateway in base first, which is a perfectly fine build. Focus on improving your own game, not complaining about a perceived disadvantage you have because of your opponent. below masters at least winning is 90% mechanics, as long as you use a solid standard army your perefectly fine unless they do something completely bat shit insane that noone ever does but even if you only played one race you wouldnt ahve practice against it anyway also if Zerg drone scout then in ZvZ there behind since there opponent is probably doing same build but didnt drone scout and in ZvP its useless since you wont actually learn anything your Overlord wouldnt Ok, so if it's 90% mechanics, then it doesn't matter anyways, random or not. If it's ZVZ and you scout a 14 pool you can 15 hatch. If they're trying to 15 hatch you can delay their expo. At the very worst you're VERY slightly behind, and the better player should win anyways. What if it's a 4player map and you scout them last, now all of that is out the window.
Then if it was an early pool, you lose. But the other 67% you scout the early pool in the other two positions it's an insta-win. I'll take those odds anyday.
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On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall.
if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win
if they dont do that then there dumb
Then if it was an early pool, you lose. But the other 67% you scout the early pool in the other two positions it's an insta-win. I'll take those odds anyday.
holding an ealry pool is 100% your opening BO not how soon you scout it
no matter how soon you know its coming if you 15 hatch and he pulls all his drones your dead
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On August 20 2012 08:51 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:46 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:40 jinorazi wrote:On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned. why dont you just add one more build to you arsenal against random players. something up until sub 20 supply and wing the rest. i really dont get the mindset of people that must have 100% of their build executed perfectly. you yourself is saying you do this and that for certain match up, why do you limit yourself to those when there are other possibilities. again, if you think other builds are subpar, you should complain to blizzard on their game design for limiting the builds so much and not so much on random players. Quick answer? I have played 5 times against random on one day and I haven't played against random for 150 games straight. I don't WANT to practise a build for the off-chance of getting a significant amount of random opponents.. Sounds like it's your issue, not the random player's. Well if 60% of players have the same issue maybe there is a better way than saying "fuck you, deal with it". Something like... Oh I don't know.. Show the race because transparently it does not make any difference according to you glorious random players
Yeah, there is a better way: get better at the game. Your suggestion is ridiculous and entirely unnecessary. By the way, which bodily orifice did you pull 60% out of?
On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb
Send overlord across scout path. See probe. Pull drone and block ramp. Collect ladder points when they try and fail.
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EPT
