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On August 20 2012 09:30 Purind wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR.There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck. Likewise, the random advantage means nothing as the random who wins by abusing this advantage has MMR that matches his opponent. I'm a random that announces my race at the start. It's up to my opponent to choose whether to believe me. They'll usually early scout and be surprised when I'm actually the race that I announced. So I guess even with race announcing, I still gain a random advantage I don't really care how random is handled on the ladder. I'm OK with it being hidden. It takes more work to get to a certain level as random than it does with a single race, but for me personally, I'd like it more if my race was revealed during the loading screen. It saves me a few key strokes and it removes any advantage that I don't want. I'd also like the reveal to be during the load screen instead of after the game starts because some people might need a few seconds to mentally prepare for a certain mu on a certain map Maybe it would be OK if there was a checkbox that reveals my race when I choose random. It wouldn't make anyone any more happy vs randoms who don't announce, but it would make me happy and my happiness is obviously worth more + Show Spoiler +
As for why I random:
1) The line in the ke$ha spoof that goes "I roll with random every game cuz that's the only way to play"
2) Achievements. That's right. Achievements
Well you're wrong about your first point. See, if you have to learn 3 races your MMR is automatically to be adjusted meaning you play people of generally equal skill to you. Since you play random and they don't know your race, now you simply have an information advantage vs a person of otherwise equal skill to you. MMR doesn't account for metagame advantages.
Also I'm sure you think you're being a nice guy by announcing your race but it's an empty gesture, your opponent has literally 0 reason to believe you and many random players will straight up lie to them about what race they are anyways so there's no way your opponent can blindly trust you. If you really wanted your opponent to know your race you would pick a race.
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random forces the other player to open up weird, i guess playing against a random you really just have to scout really early
but playing random can be a lot of fun, it allows you to get a great overall feel of the game, every match up, every map
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On August 20 2012 09:22 Forikorder wrote:and then the Zerg outmacros you and win
Yeah, because no pro ever uses a gateway first build.
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On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR. There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck.
Absolute rubbish. As terran or toss you can totally do a build that deviates AFTER you scout, and as zerg you can early scout on a 2-player map and chance a hatch-first on 4-player maps. At worst, its a calculated risk. "Pure luck", rofl.
Edit: Not saying there is no advantage to playing random but its slight, almost negligible with decent build choice, and due to mechanics it will even out if the game goes to midgame. Don't be so utterly sensational about it lol, its hard to take the rest of what you say seriously.
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There's this odd defeatist attitude lurking around this thread. A player's economy doesn't take that much of a hit from an early scout. You might be a few seconds behind, but you gain valuable information and generally peace of mind.
The only real complaint I see on here is that people are annoyed that they "have" to be the one to scout earlier.
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On August 20 2012 08:33 rEalGuapo wrote:
Let's just look at what not knowing your opponents race does to the game.
Against a Terran I have 2 specific builds that I use 90% of my PvTs.
In PvP I chose one of 3 builds depending on the map.
Against Zerg I open FFE and from there on I play reactively.
I am pretty certain that 95% of the master/GM Protoss players use FFE against Zerg.
Against random that's not an option of course.
One of my builds against Terran is blind and focuses on early pressure, I can not afford to send out a scouting probe or it won't work. So I cannot use that one either.
two of the three PvP builds requires a very early second Gas, I will not be able to use them against random players.
So for me it limits my options very very drastically.
Basically what I do is 9 scout and then react to what he is doing and hope that I win because he sucks.
Leading to me playing a shaky version of my standard play in PvT and PvP or just losing to Zerg.
Believe it or not but if you play Protoss at a decent level it happens very quickly that the difference between losing and winning is just a few seconds.
Having an extra Immortal when he Blinks up my ramp or getting it after the first is dead is often times a win or a loss. And that can be a difference of 5 seconds.
So for me playing against Random means that 2 out of 3 match-ups will automatically suck.
There is no satisfaction in winning a game when I know I would have lost if his main race was Protoss...
So yeah, it is no practice and no fun. Those are the reasons I don't want to play against random without knowing the race.
I will now leave this thread because staying in here will result in me getting banned.
Get some new builds?
And your reasons for not wanting to play random obviously don't apply to everyone who plays random. In fact, as a random player, none of those translate to my mentality. I play random for fun, and that's it. I like winning, but I value fun over winning. I will continue to play random until I stop playing the game.
This whole fairness argument is complete and utter bullshit. This game isn't built on a level playing field. Some people have better mechanics, other have better mindsets, others better reactions and others think the game better. If you can't adapt to not going FFE vs zerg then you deserve to lose the game. If you can only win by FFE you are the inferior player and need to learn some new builds. No race is equal, and no player is equal. SC2 is a game of inequalities and is just about managing those differences. You just need to figure out how to.
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On August 20 2012 09:35 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:30 Purind wrote:On August 20 2012 08:47 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:45 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:44 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 08:43 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:18 Forikorder wrote:On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it. why should they get compensation though? it was there choice, they chose to play all races knowing that it would slightly inconvenience them they can choose one or two races and play with no handicap but they dont i think it should show the race they got in the loading screen as a zerg its annoying not knowing what build to use if i 14pool 15 hatch then im safe if its Toss but if its Zerg or Terran im behind if i blind 15 hatch then if its toss he wins right there The discussion in this thread has become incredibly cyclical. People who hate random players will not listen to even the most reasonable and rational arguments. They want the game to tailored only to themselves and their own enjoyment and success. No amount of dialogue on this will change their minds. I think this thread has run its course. wouldnt it be the other way around? all we want is a fair playing ground FOR EVERYONE while randoms want the free advantage by hiding there race unless your in GM playing random isnt a handicap jsut learn one strat for each match up and your golden, it doesnt matter if you dont know it perfectly because 90% of the time you start with a big lead since they had to use a bad BO to counter all 3 races at the same time What? Just 9 scout, now you're behind by about 50 - 75 minerals, but you see their race AND what they're doing earlier. And against Terran you would probably 12scout anyway (and I 12scout vs Protoss now), so it's just 25 - 30 minerals or something like that. At your level it's not a big lead. If you really think it's such a big advantage why don't you play random? I have played random, it's a HUGE advantage. I played random until masters then switched to Zerg (which is WAY easier to get higher ranked on ladder, or any race for that matter, cause you only practice one) when I hit a ceiling at Random. Again - if you think it is such a big advantage just play random. I bet your ladder ranking will drop. The only reason it's an "advantage" is because of the mental games - when I random I play standard 99% of the time - either my opponent plays ridiculously super defensive expecting cheese, or just opens with a cheese build that I can easily stop. Well that's exactly the point. Your opponent almost *has* to play that way against random, it sets you off ahead of them 99% of the time, the other 1% they just got lucky. And obviously if you go to playing all 3 races over 1 your ranking will probably drop but that means NOTHING to your opponent since you are still equally matched in MMR.There is no intelligent way to play against random, whether your opening works against them or not is purely luck. Likewise, the random advantage means nothing as the random who wins by abusing this advantage has MMR that matches his opponent. I'm a random that announces my race at the start. It's up to my opponent to choose whether to believe me. They'll usually early scout and be surprised when I'm actually the race that I announced. So I guess even with race announcing, I still gain a random advantage I don't really care how random is handled on the ladder. I'm OK with it being hidden. It takes more work to get to a certain level as random than it does with a single race, but for me personally, I'd like it more if my race was revealed during the loading screen. It saves me a few key strokes and it removes any advantage that I don't want. I'd also like the reveal to be during the load screen instead of after the game starts because some people might need a few seconds to mentally prepare for a certain mu on a certain map Maybe it would be OK if there was a checkbox that reveals my race when I choose random. It wouldn't make anyone any more happy vs randoms who don't announce, but it would make me happy and my happiness is obviously worth more + Show Spoiler +
As for why I random:
1) The line in the ke$ha spoof that goes "I roll with random every game cuz that's the only way to play"
2) Achievements. That's right. Achievements
Well you're wrong about your first point. See, if you have to learn 3 races your MMR is automatically to be adjusted meaning you play people of generally equal skill to you. Since you play random and they don't know your race, now you simply have an information advantage vs a person of otherwise equal skill to you. MMR doesn't account for metagame advantages. Also I'm sure you think you're being a nice guy by announcing your race but it's an empty gesture, your opponent has literally 0 reason to believe you and many random players will straight up lie to them about what race they are anyways so there's no way your opponent can blindly trust you. If you really wanted your opponent to know your race you would pick a race.
So, your MMR is automatically adjusted for you having to learn three races, but it isn't automatically adjusted for any perceived build order advantage you may have........? Good logic there.
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I believe that random is in a certain sense its own race. The player risks the possibilty of getting a bad race for the addition of the mystery factor. Since it is its own race you need builds for it that may look similar to ffe but cant be teched out of it. Have you tried gateway first in PvZ? Random has its own balance which is why it effects both opponents
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On August 19 2012 21:54 Tao367 wrote:
Also, while this seems like a small point to bring up, as a follow up point, pros will never have to deal with random players. If Blizzard wants to make the ladder similar to tournaments as they say, random is directly countering that philosophy.
pros will never have to deal with random players because pros focus on 1 race. it is far easier to learn 1 race than all 3 and get success. can you even name one pro that plays random AND gets success?
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On August 19 2012 22:06 forsooth wrote:
Random players are supposed to have the advantage of being able to throw you off your game. It's how they compensate for lacking the more refined play that comes from focused practice with a single race.
So yeah, it's going to affect you and you're going to have to deal with it.
This exact thing
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Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum.
Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players.
So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE).
I understand many players will not agree with this, but why?
My personal opinion is this:
A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong).
Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience.
Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why.
To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself.
You're acting like a child. Why shouldn't it affect you? If they choose zerg, it affects you. If they choose toss, it affects you. Suck it up, cry baby, and send an earlier scout. That's what a random player gets: a few minerals advantage because they can scout later than you. Just get better and deal with it.
Why don't you argue that toss players have to use a different server then? Or zerg? Gotta change things up against them too, you know- or don't you?
Somebody's got to close this thread, this is an eyesore.
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On August 20 2012 09:39 CptCutter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 21:54 Tao367 wrote:
Also, while this seems like a small point to bring up, as a follow up point, pros will never have to deal with random players. If Blizzard wants to make the ladder similar to tournaments as they say, random is directly countering that philosophy. pros will never have to deal with random players because pros focus on 1 race. it is far easier to learn 1 race than all 3 and get success. can you even name one pro that plays random AND gets success?
Guinea Pig and Gumiho both played random during the open seasons of the GSL (2010) but later switched to focus on one race. =
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One time I was playing a PVZ and the zerg 6 pooled me, so my FFE was useless. What the hell is that? Blizzard should incorporate something so that if someone 6 pools you, it lets you know so you're able to prepare for it. Someone being able to use a build against you without you knowing just gives them an unfair advantage.
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On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate  pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff.
so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone
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On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone
So pay attention and micro better.
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On August 20 2012 09:41 Natespank wrote:Show nested quote +
Firstly, I'm not sure this is the right forum, but this seems general enough to warrant the general forum.
Secondly, this is not a "ALL RANDOM PLAYERS SHOULD DIE" thread, I am creating this to have a discussion and get the opinions of other mature players.
So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random? As a protoss player, a random opponent that spawns terran or protoss doesn't bother me. However when they are zerg it is extremely annoying, I feel like I am already behind due to something completely out of control (not being able to FFE).
I understand many players will not agree with this, but why?
My personal opinion is this:
A player that chooses random is their choice, and it should not affect me in any shape or form. PvZ is the only matchup where random is really a problem I believe (correct me if I'm wrong).
Many people will respond with the argument "They're random, they have to learn more matchups". I say to that, While true, I don't care, they choose to play random, it shouldn't affect me or how I play and 9/10 times in bronze-diamond all they do is cheese anyway - at least in my experience.
Many - if not all of you will disagree with me on this, but I would like to know why.
To clarify: I have nothing against random players, I understand why they play random, I have a problem with random itself.
You're acting like a child. Why shouldn't it affect you? If they choose zerg, it affects you. If they choose toss, it affects you. Suck it up, cry baby, and send an earlier scout. That's what a random player gets: a few minerals advantage because they can scout later than you. Just get better and deal with it. Why don't you argue that toss players have to use a different server then? Or zerg? Gotta change things up against them too, you know- or don't you? Somebody's got to close this thread, this is an eyesore.
Way to miss the entire point of the thread.
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On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone
Then you deserve to lose because you aren't paying attention/can't spare the 3 extra apm to bring another drone and send the other one back to mine -- and I'm pretty sure 99% of Terrans have learned to do this by gold league.
edit: Turns out in base proxies can kill you if you aren't paying attention. Solution: remove inbase proxies.
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On August 20 2012 09:56 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone Then you deserve to lose because you aren't paying attention/can't spare the 3 extra apm to bring another drone and send the other one back to mine -- and I'm pretty sure 99% of Terrans have learned to do this by gold league. Turns out in base proxies can kill you if you aren't paying attention. Solution: Remove inbase proxies.
then you have 2 drones not mining so your losing even more minerals and are behind even without him having to pylon wall
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Why the fuck is there a pylon block discussion in this thread. Even when you know you're against toss you have to like 9pool to get lings out in time to stop it. And terran can 11/11 bunker rush just as easily. That's not a random issue at all, you just NEED to watch your natural. Always.
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On August 20 2012 09:58 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:56 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 09:45 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 09:31 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:56 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 20 2012 08:54 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 08:52 FairForever wrote:On August 20 2012 08:49 Forikorder wrote:I feel that of all races, toss is the most affected by playing against random, as the creator of the post said, it is fine if the opponent is Terran or Protoss, but zerg is the problem, not being able to ffe.
For terran and zerg, they are not really that affected by random players (or so it seems, i'm not sure) for zerg, they can just 15 hatch vs all 3 races and be OK, (for the most part) and terran can just 1 tax fe. hatch first VS protoss is as much an insta lose as no FFE VS Zerg (possiby more so) plus as toss or terran playing a random you have to wall in at the high ground which can be exploited by your opponent What level are you? I hate bringing out this argument, but hatch first is NOT insta-loss vs FFE. I hatch-first a LOT at high masters. Also - you do NOT have to wall in at high ground... Terrans typically wall in at high ground against all races so it's fine. Protoss - you can just build near your base - see White-Ra. Even against Zerg he doesn't high-ground wall-off - you can hold 6/7/8 pool without a highground wall. if you hatch first they pylon block your ramp or cannon rush you and collect there free win if they dont do that then there dumb Pylon block... wow, you not that that has been solved like a year ago!? cannon rush works brilliant as long as Zerg doesn't expect it.... honestly you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, go play bronce and tell high master/gm players that you can send 9 and 12 scout with no problem against 4Gate pylon block was solved by putting a neutral depot by the ramp, no neutral depot in ladder maps... Or by putting an overlord in position to see incoming probes and stopping the pylon block with drones. Or by doing the worker stack linked above. And it's bullshit that you come out way behind. Protoss has to spend a lot of money to do that kind of stuff. so you ahve to a drone stalking the probe the entire time? its still possible to get the wall up if your not paying attention or he could use the shield regen to his advantage and just kill the drone Then you deserve to lose because you aren't paying attention/can't spare the 3 extra apm to bring another drone and send the other one back to mine -- and I'm pretty sure 99% of Terrans have learned to do this by gold league. Turns out in base proxies can kill you if you aren't paying attention. Solution: Remove inbase proxies. then you have 2 drones not mining so your losing even more minerals and are behind even without him having to pylon wall
Are you for real? You have one drone not mining with a brief second that the second drone won't be mining. How in the fuck has any Terran on this Earth ever won against probe micro, considering a Protoss forces way more SCV pulls than a Zerg would ever dream of having to. I guess an SCV dying is the better alternative.
First world problems, dood.
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EPT
