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On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds.
Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups.
Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head.
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On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head.
GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
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Just putting it out there, but as a random player, I can tell you that it affects more than just pvz. It affects zerg most, as they dont know whether to hatch first or gas first or pool first. Yes it affects pvz too though, I understand...even randoms play vs randoms haha. Bare in mind this also works the other way around. If you were toss, i was R and spawned as Z, I could not, as I would if I were just straight zerg, know for almost certain that you would FFE and thus take early hatches because you know I'm Z...you might end up 4gating or w/e, which would be unexpected...it works both ways.
RE the FFE...there are viable 1gate expands vs zerg, even at pro level.. learn one of them, naniwa does some good ones.
RE revealing race: I personally tell anyone who asks what race I spawn as, because I don't use it to gain an advantage, I use it because I love the challenge and I love all the races. That said, you would think I wouldn't mind if my race was revealed at the start. But I would. I feel those who do play it for an advantage deserve it because, as you said, they have to learn more matchups, more builds, more tactics....everything. The way I see it, if you lost a game to a random player with him playing random, if he'd played one race his whole career, he'd be much better than you anyway, so you've not lost any points as a result of him playing random.
RE the "cheesed by randoms"....if you lose to cheese, you did something wrong, or they got lucky with spawns or w/e (which will happen less than half the time, so wins>losses), regardless of what race they are. In terms of not learning anything from the matchup....neither do people who cheese, but thats still fine. You play what you enjoy, and if you enjoy cheesing, its just as viable a way of winning, and it also takes skill to do consistenly well with it in a high league....look at korea.
In summary, for those with a lack of attention span...no I don't agree it should be done, I'd recommend asking each person their race, you might get lucky. Though you might end up with a suboptimal build, they suffer from suboptimal builds because they do them 66% less than they would otherwise, so its subop vs subop anyway. Finally, you should always be ready to defend or lose to and learn from cheese.
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Went from zerg to random purely to fuck with protoss who can't FFE if i roll zerg. This thread confirms I made the right choice.
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On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude
I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same.
Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat.
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On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss.
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On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
vs gateway expands you can take a 6-630 minute third and max out slightly later. P has comparatively even more delayed econ so it doesn't matter. If they don't expand, you just stay on 2.
It's a pain in the ass playing random and not getting to play real ZvP games, anyways - nobody's going to do a FFE, and who the hell practices anything else? People will default to going all-in in a ton of the cases. Yeah, I could pre-pick my race with a die or something but I also like being able to say 'look, I play entirely random, and can get to X rank on the ladder'. Sure, I tell people my race if they ask, but if I was playing main race vs random and someone told me, I wouldn't trust them for a second.
Add a way to display it, and you fix some problems :/
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On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss.
You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus.
On August 20 2012 11:32 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. vs gateway expands you can take a 6-630 minute third and max out slightly later. P has comparatively even more delayed econ so it doesn't matter. If they don't expand, you just stay on 2. It's a pain in the ass playing random and not getting to play real ZvP games, anyways - nobody's going to do a FFE, and who the hell practices anything else? People will default to going all-in in a ton of the cases. Yeah, I could pre-pick my race with a die or something but I also like being able to say 'look, I play entirely random, and can get to X rank on the ladder'. Sure, I tell people my race if they ask, but if I was playing main race vs random and someone told me, I wouldn't trust them for a second. Add a way to display it, and you fix some problems :/
Get a smurf account? You aren't playing zerg, you're playing random.
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On August 20 2012 11:35 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss. You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus.
You take a 4 minute third vs FFE because it can't put on aggression.
You take a 6-630 third vs gateway expand and the game plays out the same way only slightly delayed - only if anything, P's econ takes a bigger hit.
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I play random because I like doing all 3 races.
I get cheesed more than I cheese the opponents. I will all-in on 2 mirror matchups and that's really it. 4-3-2 ratio of early expand/early aggression/cheese builds.
I think people really do underestimate the increased difficulty involved with learning 3 times the builds. I understand that it can be frustrating to not know, and real frustrating to get surprise 6-pooled, but consider the fact that even if you added a 4th build to your reproitoire to deal with randoms, you would still be using 5 fewer builds than a random player, and you would be doing yourself a favor by learning a new build that was viable in many situations.
The only race really boned by randoms early on is toss, and that's mostly because of building placement issues. Zergs complain about not being able to 15 hatch, but expo blocking is common anyway so it shouldn't be that crazy to have have an answer. Terran has pretty much no penalty for walling off, their builds deviate from one another more slowly, and can build an expo in their base if they're super paranoid, so I really don't sympathise with them much at all.
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On August 20 2012 11:37 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:35 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss. You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus. You take a 4 minute third vs FFE because it can't put on aggression. You take a 6-630 third vs gateway expand and the game plays out the same way only slightly delayed - only if anything, P's econ takes a bigger hit.
Quotee insinuated you could max on roaches like it'd hit before any relevant pressure and walk over the protoss. P's econ only takes a bigger hit if you can't force lings with a build suited towards fast pressure, not econ.
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On August 20 2012 11:41 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:37 Dfgj wrote:On August 20 2012 11:35 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 11:10 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent. Gateway expand is not 1 base Protoss. You'll see the gas/third hatch before you drop the nexus. You take a 4 minute third vs FFE because it can't put on aggression. You take a 6-630 third vs gateway expand and the game plays out the same way only slightly delayed - only if anything, P's econ takes a bigger hit. Quotee insinuated you could max on roaches like it'd hit before any relevant pressure and walk over the protoss. P's econ only takes a bigger hit if you can't force lings with a build suited towards fast pressure, not econ.
It looks more like he was asking how they fared.
Early max roaches (with burrow) wrecked P for ages when 3gate expand was the norm, but that was also on less defensible maps.
On August 20 2012 11:40 FuzzyYeti wrote:
I think people really do underestimate the increased difficulty involved with learning 3 times the builds.
You're not learning 3x the builds. You're learning 1/3 the builds per matchup that a single-race player would. Your post even explains how your play is relatively limited in variety within each matchup.
At master league random I don't have a fraction of the depth I do in my main race.
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its deffinitely annoying. i used to FFE vs random back when Oz showed that it was possible to FFE vs terran, and if they were protoss i'd just cannon rush.
now i just do the in base pylon again as naniwa has shown u can do it against zerg to meta game them since they dont open gas anymore
since most maps are 2 player these days its pretty easy to 9 scout and if theyre zerg u can nex first or w/e
but if its a 4 player map like entombed or antiga and u scout last (which always happens) then suck it up and play from behind. not much else you can do im afraid, toss deffinitely has the hardest time opening against random than the other 2 races imo.
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On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same. Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat.
If you play random you are no different from them
If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him.
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On August 20 2012 10:48 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:33 Tao367 wrote:On August 20 2012 10:22 niteReloaded wrote:
Naniwa opens with 1gate in PvZ. If he can take two games of DRG in Code S with it, you can beat your diamonds. Nobody is disputing the facts those builds are viable. People are disputing the fact the random (Zerg) player knows you will not have ffe and can plan/respond appropriately. Even at diamond people know basic meta game for all matchups. Also, how do gateway expands fair against max roach builds? I'm not sure how effective they are off the top of my head. GL taking the 4 minute third necessary to max fast enough on roaches against a (potentially) one base protoss. They will scout it immediately if they're remotely decent.
That actually happens to me a lot. You have to stay on 2 base longer against a gateway expanding toss, they can hit their offensive timing pushes much faster with that build especially if you don't put on heavy pressure earlier.
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On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes.
It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random.
I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional.
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Just do some cheese vs random.
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On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional.
It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it.
The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional.
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On August 20 2012 12:11 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it. The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional.
You have literally no argument for your completely wrong statement and I can also promise you I play this game more and at a higher level than you.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional.
SC2 is a game of unfair, balanced advantages. Learn to deal with it. I'm just gonna paste my original quote because again, picking random is apparently SO advantageous that you will win lots of tournaments. Or at the very least rank high on ladder. Maybe not, but you'll get lots of portraits.
+ Show Spoiler [random statistics] +Of all the major tournaments (that I care to list),
0 random players have won GSL.
0 random players have won MLG.
0 random players have won ESL.
0 random players have won IPL.
0 random players have won NASL.
0 random players have won Dreamhack.
0 random players have won HSC.
Name a tournament I didn't list so I can say 0.
Of all the players in grandmasters,
NA has three.
EU has one.
KOR has zero.
Of all the players in masters,
4.2% of NA play random.
3.1% of EU play random.
3.7% of KOR play random.
Also, lol @ proper game.
On August 20 2012 12:12 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 12:11 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2012 12:05 BeeNu wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 forsooth wrote:On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote:
If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. It just irritates me because it is a complete waste of time. It irritates me because Random players make massive amounts of excuses to justify why playing Random is totally fair and balanced even though it's a total crock. Look, I understand the appeal of playing Random but if you're gonna do it just be honest about what it is, by selecting Random you automatically give yourself an unfair advantage and nothing you do beyond that can undo that, accept that you prioritize your enjoyment of random over having a balanced and "proper" game and also understand you will never come close to having the same ladder experience as people who don't pick random. I wouldn't really be annoyed if so many people who played Random didn't seem so entirely delusional. It isn't an unfair advantage, it's actually more of a disadvantage than anything else. You'd know this if you actually spent anytime playing it. The fact is, playing a single race is easy compared to trying to play all 3. You're the one being delusional. You have literally no argument for your completely wrong statement and I can also promise you I play this game more and at a higher level than you.
Which level is that? If it was high enough you'd play few to virtually no random players, lol! (see spoiler above, again).
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EPT
