EPTRandom and its place on the ladder - Page 25
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On August 20 2012 09:58 Kasu wrote: Why the fuck is there a pylon block discussion in this thread. Even when you know you're against toss you have to like 9pool to get lings out in time to stop it. And terran can 11/11 bunker rush just as easily. That's not a random issue at all, you just NEED to watch your natural. Always. if they pylon wall and you 14 pool the lings jsut kill the pylons and then go kill the toss... | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:01 VictorJones wrote: Artosis himself said the RvP was the most imba MU in the game. I agree. It's fine if they spawn P or T since openings for PvT and PvP are similar enough up until you can scout them. If they end up being Z tho it's a bummer for sure since you're forced into 1 base play instead of FFE is which is the standard. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about it but as a P player it is really frustrating You can totally gateway expand you know. There are plenty of 1- and 2-gate options with earlier pressure than FFE. The followups are a bit more limited, yes, but they are absolutely viable expand builds. | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
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RandomPlayer
Russian Federation390 Posts
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Aelos
Sweden5 Posts
On August 20 2012 06:50 SnareSpectre wrote: I am a diamond random player who enjoys playing all 3 races, and I love the fact that I can go random without having the other person know my race. You know why? It forces people to think on their feet. I feel like one of my biggest strengths is being able to analyze a situation on the fly and make decisions based on what I scout/see, so I love the ability to force my opponent to do the same, instead of just going through the motions of some rehearsed build they've learned from a pro or from Liquipedia. It keeps the game from being stale (for me). I've seen the argument of "I like thinking on my feet and my opponents should have to do so too!" a few times now. It makes no sense as you as a random instantly knows the matchup when you load the map and can use whatever standard build-order you use against that race, where as your opponent is the only one needing to scout super-early and from there adapt whatever build order they chose to start out with. The random-player does not need think on his feet at any point and does not need to "analyze a situation on the fly" more than any other race in any other match-up. Regardless whether the random race should be shown or not, this is a poor argument. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:03 BeeNu wrote: If I have to be perfectly honest, I absolutely despise random players, I probably only hate them a tiny bit less than hackers. Oh sure you have every right to play random if you wish to, I just fucking hate you and consider every win you ever get to be unearned and any match against you is a complete waste of time. Rofl, why would it bother you that much? SC2 isn't a game of seeing a picture during the loading screen and responding with a completely pre-planned series of clicks and button presses that must go unchanged and uninterrupted or the sky is falling. It's compared to chess for a reason. You need to think about what you're doing, and that doesn't mean that thinking only starts after the first 5 minutes. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote: I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:02 Forikorder wrote: if they pylon wall and you 14 pool the lings jsut kill the pylons and then go kill the toss... Wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340956#13 This guy tested it, 11pool doesn't kill it before cannon is up. You HAVE to stop the 3 pylons going down. Edit: Unless the toss does some shitty late half-ass attempt at it I guess. Edit 2: I guess you might get a couple of lings outside your base. But then you still have a cannon below your ramp and toss will have one up in his base too so that's hardly a solution. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:07 Aelos wrote: I've seen the argument of "I like thinking on my feet and my opponents should have to do so too!" a few times now. It makes no sense as you as a random instantly knows the matchup when you load the map and can use whatever standard build-order you use against that race, where as your opponent is the only one needing to scout super-early and from there adapt whatever build order they chose to start out with. The random-player does not need think on his feet at any point and does not need to "analyze a situation on the fly" more than any other race in any other match-up. Regardless whether the random race should be shown or not, this is a poor argument. As a random player, I've had people blind 14 CC, blind proxy gate, blind 15 hatch, blind 10 pool, etc. There are plenty of times I'm actually at a BO disadvantage unless I scout early. | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:13 Kasu wrote: Wrong. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340956#13 This guy tested it, 11pool doesn't kill it before cannon is up. You HAVE to stop the 3 pylons going down. Edit: Unless the toss does some shitty late half-ass attempt at it I guess. Or 14 pool and use your queen to take out the cannon from the high ground and then baneling bust/roach all in them, use the drone mineral trick to take down the wall before the cannon finishes, etc. I've never lost a pylon wall when I 14 pool. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote: odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I have | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:15 Advocado wrote: Whats with all the animosity towards random players lol. Its no problem as a zerg, I scout at 13 and work he matchup from there. Yeah its very rarely an issue unless they cheese, in which case guess what they could have done that with a dedicated race and it's a less entertaining game either way. I think some people just don't like adjusting their play, and some just tell themselves "random OP" so they can pretend for yet another game that they didn't deserve to lose. | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:16 GolemMadness wrote: Or 14 pool and use your queen to take out the cannon from the high ground and then baneling bust/roach all in them, use the drone mineral trick to take down the wall before the cannon finishes, etc. I've never lost a pylon wall when I 14 pool. Yeah should have said that I meant survive without being a long way behind. True you can just all-in and hope as in any other case when you get behind, but you should lose if you play standard and about equal to toss. Edit: Also if the cannon is within queen range from the top of the ramp then that's a shit execution by toss. It should be pylons only, leaving you with the choice to spread creep and spine them down, use a queen, or run units by for your all-in because there's no way you're even close to economically level by this stage. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
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CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
If they are T or Z, they normally aren't used to playing against a nexus first from P, so I am normally able to beat them in the macro game (I find they rarely cheese), since their build will be behind from what they are used to. Just remember that assuming the random player's MMR has stabilised, it will normally be against sub-optimised builds that they have the 50% win-rate against, meaning that if you are using an optimised build (nexus first), you are going to be the favoured player. If they roll P... well I lose about 70% of the time. However the other 30% of the time they go for a 1-2 gate expand, or go for a phoenix build, both of which actually lose to nexus first on most maps. You can also roll the dice a bit more by hiding the nexus first (daybreak and cloud kingdom are great maps for this), which increases your chances against P, but makes it harder against Z, and about the same chance against T if you go for a 2 base timing. Edit: Also, I run into random players in about 10-15% of games, which means it is pretty much a free win for me in 7-10% of games XD. After all, if a random player is rolling the dice, you simply need to rig that die in your favour. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote: odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude I've seen at least 10 people say that so far. I've always told my race when asked. | ||
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote: odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts" probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude about 3 or 4 people said that they tell people their race within the first 5 pages lol | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 20 2012 07:53 GolemMadness wrote: Yes, because you may have a weaker race, you may suffer against certain timing attacks because you don't get as much experience as someone who only plays one race; you constantly have to change your mindset based on what race it gives you, etc. While you play be playing against people close to your MMR, it can be harder to progress and move up. This is getting much much closer to the truth. We random players get our macro practice split between 3 different mechanics, our tech builds very diverse race-to-race and situation-to-situation and so are rarely getting focused practice. The numbers tell the tale: Only 3 Random players sit in grandmasters. Randoms take up 4.0% in masters, 6.3% in diamond, 8.3% in platinum ... this is not a mechanism to rise high and sit atop everybody with the early game scouting, economy, or tech advantage. For every Random player competing in masters, there's 8 protoss, 7 terran, and 9 zergs. I take these statistics from "NA" server for reference. On August 20 2012 07:39 Tao367 wrote: Honestly, I don't see why the burden is on me. They chose to take a VOLUNTARY "disadvantage" to play random and play all three races, but seeing the "I'm disadvantaged so you should be disadvantaged as well" argument just doesn't sit right with me. Oh, its not a one-for-one exchange, quid pro quo. I am introducing to you a 4th matchup and you preparing for 3 matchups is unwise if ladder is your thing (If you're at the level of qualifying for tournaments at the highest level, you will find much fewer randoms than on ladder). That's the burden. Randoms also play other randoms and you know what ... it's usually (for me) accompanied by friendly banter from people that have fun on the ladder. I have an early scouting build for when I RvR. Drone scout, scv scout, probe scout. Relax, learn to have fun laddering. If you make it to GSL, the last time a random competed there was in Ro64 in 2010. He did not advance to the round of 32. GL! | ||
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