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Random and its place on the ladder - Page 28

Forum Index > SC2 General
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YMCApylons
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Taiwan359 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 04:13:15
August 20 2012 04:12 GMT
#541
My policy for random is simple. I ask for race, and if they don't respond within 10 second, or give a non-response, I leave the game or proxy 2 rax. I don't care about my ladder ranking enough to play against random.
You must construct additional pylons.
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 04:27:21
August 20 2012 04:16 GMT
#542
On August 20 2012 13:10 Dfgj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 13:08 rd wrote:
On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.

Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).


But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features.

Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied.

There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it.


...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages?

And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players.

Should probably read the posts I quote.
Savant.GL
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany502 Posts
August 20 2012 04:21 GMT
#543
Random players aren't going to be refined so my philosophy is scout early and play safe. Sure you lose out initially but you are a better more refined player.
Savant
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
August 20 2012 04:24 GMT
#544
On August 20 2012 12:34 Dfgj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 12:29 FaiL_SaFe wrote:
On August 20 2012 12:00 BeeNu wrote:
On August 20 2012 10:53 FaiL_SaFe wrote:
On August 20 2012 10:12 Forikorder wrote:
On August 20 2012 10:05 RandomPlayer wrote:
I always tell my race if I am asked, when playing random

odd that noone has said yet "i tell them ym race when it starts"

probably vbecause they know that they get a huge advantage from them not knowing your race and only tell them there race in very specific circumstance so they dont get labelled as rude


I play random and I personally always make a point of telling my opponent what race I rolled, hell I even do it in the random versus random mu frequently. I also know of other random players who do the same.

Contrary to what way too many people in this thread seem to think, there are plenty of random players (myself included) who play random because a) we want to learn the game better as a whole and/or b) we can't decide which race to play. Sure there are random players who are cheesy little shits and just play random so they can 11/11 rax, cannon rush and 6-pool all the time but don't put all of us in same boat.


If you play random you are no different from them

If you tell people your race at the start it is an entirely meaningless gesture that your opponent should ignore if he knows what's good for him.


Just one simple question, why?

If I was to roll ZvP and say 'hi, I'm zerg, please FFE', anyone who trusts me on the ladder is insane. I wish that wasn't the case, but they have no way of knowing I'm not trying to fool them and there are a lot of people who would try that.


This.

I played a ZvR once... I don't ask for race, but someone told me he was P... he was T lol
trGKakarot
Profile Joined October 2011
United States129 Posts
August 20 2012 04:26 GMT
#545
I play random, personally I would prefer it says your race (as in Zerg/Terran/Toss) at the map/player load screen, so that it doesn't even appear as you played random.

Would lead to better games all around (imo).
hihi glgl
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 04:30:18
August 20 2012 04:28 GMT
#546
On August 20 2012 13:16 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 13:10 Dfgj wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:08 rd wrote:
On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.

Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).


But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features.

Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied.

There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it.


...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages.

And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players.

Should probably read the posts I quote.

I'm high master P/master R. I do not like not being able to play standard games on my random account.

You do not get to play normal games in some circumstances when playing Random, a fact entirely caused by the lack of information of race: something that is always provided in other cases. This does not have any impact on things in-game, it does not change balance - it simply enables normal gameplay in a situation where it is impeded This is more than just the ZvP situation (and sure, I've gotten free wins from that at times), but also people being far less willing to play normal against someone picking Random.

A single glance through the thread displays the problems that leaving Random displayed as 'Random' causes in terms of how games play out. As I said, there's no reason for Random to have this difference, this comparative lack of information.
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
August 20 2012 04:34 GMT
#547
On August 20 2012 04:04 Liquid`NonY wrote:
You should practice gateway openings in PvZ to fix this problem.


Nony da man
SC2 Mapmaker
Random_Guy09
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada1010 Posts
August 20 2012 04:37 GMT
#548
On August 20 2012 00:21 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 00:19 Vallros wrote:
I don't get why random players have search for matches using the random option. Just roll a dice between games and let it decide, instead of playing with an advantage that encourages coin-flip situations


And I don't understand why players like you feel like playing Random encourages more coin-flip situations. Is the first minute or two THAT important to you that you feel completely pressured into all inning or playing ultra greedy once you find out what race I am?

Just probe scout at 9, and play the game out standard from there.


Yeah sure us protoss players will probe scout at 9 and wait on pylon placement and give you a small econ lead at the beginning of the game because you cant roll a dice to choose you race. Then hope we placed a pylon in the right spot or get completely behind because you get that advantage of knowing right after teh game starts what race your facing and how greedy you can be.

If you spawn zerg against toss then its just "oh look speedling rush to deny natural because they have to go some suboptimal build and barely wall off or you 6 pool and its an auto BO win" You spawn terran "oh look free pylon during a gateway expand marine rush to take down the pylon and go back home laughing" You spawn as toss " oh look suboptimal gateway expand because im random lets just do some type of rush take out pylon and win because he has to scout early and lose econ and i know the suboptimal build vs random so he has no units after the pylon dies"

Jesus the only person almost everyone knows that actually isn't some guy making up excuses and being a dick and hiding his race when he plays random is Apollo. Otherwise the rest of you are just a bunch of jokes.(except those few posts i read about them wanting blizzard to show their race at the loading screen. good people you are :D) "oh i have to learn more matchups. Oh i have to learn more builds. Oh i get called a liar and a cheeser when people enter the game. Oh i want to test out a new build against something suboptimal just so i can say i won with it"

You stuck up randoms (except those proper ones with respect for playing straight up games) need ot get taht stick out of your ass and see if from our end. We leave and assume those things because the large percent of random's do all that cheese and lying garbage to get an edge. Most people go on ladder to get better and practice legit matchups and BO's and dont want to have to deal with the garbage that is facing opponents blindly and having suboptimal openers while you can open standard and just rush and win games.

rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 04:40:19
August 20 2012 04:37 GMT
#549
On August 20 2012 13:28 Dfgj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 13:16 rd wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:10 Dfgj wrote:
On August 20 2012 13:08 rd wrote:
On August 20 2012 12:59 shadowboxer wrote:
You shouldn't get a build order advantage just because you choose to play random.

Random just needs to let the player choose random and tell both players the race in the loading screen. If they want to play random, let them, but don't punish the other race because of it. This fixes the issue and doesn't hurt the random player at all(They shouldn't rely on the other race not knowing their own race anyway).


But you don't get a build order advantage. You merely have a 1/6 chance to get a (debatable) build order advantage every time you queue. The cons of playing random out-weigh this tremendously beyond lower leagues. It's not an issue at all, nor is any race being punished -- you could literally take this perspective and apply it to each match-up where each race is "punished" (at a disadvantage) due to inherent racial features.

Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied.

There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it.


...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages.

And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players.

Should probably read the posts I quote.

I'm high master P/master R. I do not like not being able to play standard games on my random account.

You do not get to play normal games in some circumstances when playing Random, a fact entirely caused by the lack of information of race: something that is always provided in other cases. This does not have any impact on things in-game, it does not change balance - it simply enables normal gameplay in a situation where it is impeded This is more than just the ZvP situation (and sure, I've gotten free wins from that at times), but also people being far less willing to play normal against someone picking Random.

A single glance through the thread displays the problems that leaving Random displayed as 'Random' causes in terms of how games play out. As I said, there's no reason for Random to have this difference, this comparative lack of information.


What's your point? You play random and that is how the game pans out. I don't pick Zerg and expect to be successful at early aggression with any remote consistency at high levels. It's a component of the race, that owes absolutely nothing to your personal grievances. If it's such a big issue that you'd spend this much time posting about it, then I don't see why you can't better spend that time rolling a die between queues. The only difference at that point is portraits.
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
August 20 2012 04:43 GMT
#550
Zerg is a race. Random is not. It's a tool to allow you to play all the races freely.

If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool.
Aterons_toss
Profile Joined February 2011
Romania1275 Posts
August 20 2012 04:44 GMT
#551
The problem with random is that the race is incredibly easy to use to screw over other players but it screws you over as well.
Why ? Because there are match ups and match ups. As a protoss i get why they are annoying but as a T you fucking roll over them... its not like the CC first expand has that much variation depending on match up anyway.

Same with Z, if said random player spawns as T or as Z he will likely get dominated ( with the mention that T can 2 rack ) and seeing as diamond + zerg are good against 1base cheese and poorly executed 2 base cheese even for P nowadays the same argument could be made for protoss. Hell, even vs P if they spawn as T they are generally screwed from the get go.

What im trying to say is that tho random might seem like a coin flip for many, it's a coin flip for them as well... and one that doesn't favor them at that, thus the amount of random slowly decreases as you move further on the ladder.

I do agree random is a problem, someone shouldn't get an advantage... especially if said advantage is bigger vs certain races, just cuz they play all 3 races, its there choice and only because they fell like having fun in a certain way it doesn't mean that it has to ruin the fun of other. The fact that random is allowed to hide there race its the same as a sniper being able to chose the option to play without a scope and get + x hp for doing that, it will not favor him in the end but it will annoy other people. However blizzard is known not to care about this sort of things and until a good chunk of random player will reach rating high enough so that i face them in more than 1 out of 50 games I will happily say "meh".
A good strategy means leaving your opponent room to make mistakes
Sporadic44
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
August 20 2012 04:46 GMT
#552
As a zerg player, 9/10 times I will beat a random player in the late game unless they are just flat out a better player than myself. As protoss it must be annoying but after scouting i dont see why you cant go for a naniwa-esque gateway first expand. You might be slightly behind at the start, but unless its an experienced zerg player messing around playing random, you have an overwhelming advantage in late game experience.
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
rd
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2586 Posts
August 20 2012 04:51 GMT
#553
On August 20 2012 13:43 Dfgj wrote:
Zerg is a race. Random is not. It's a tool to allow you to play all the races freely.

If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool.


Random is a race. The "tool" that allows you to play all the races freely is the ability to choose a race before you queue. Neither the race or tool have any problems -- you simply think they were made for different functions that cater or should to what you want.
honkeybeef
Profile Joined July 2011
United States143 Posts
August 20 2012 04:54 GMT
#554
Fuck them, even if they tell you their race, 90% of the time its some stupid all in that doesnt make sense--so even if you win, there is nothing learned. Fuck randoms.

Although there are a few randoms who are fun too play. But for the most part, fuck them.
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
August 20 2012 04:54 GMT
#555
On August 20 2012 13:51 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 13:43 Dfgj wrote:
Zerg is a race. Random is not. It's a tool to allow you to play all the races freely.

If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool.


Random is a race. The "tool" that allows you to play all the races freely is the ability to choose a race before you queue. Neither the race or tool have any problems -- you simply think they were made for different functions that cater or should to what you want.

You are incorrect. Random does not have its own units. It does not have its own gameplay changes. It is an entirely out-of-game tool to select one of the races. Once the game has begun, there is only Z, P, T. The only 'advantage' random has is in muddling the standard amount of information about the races within the game.

There is no reason for choosing to select Random having an impact on how a game plays out between the races.
Apparatus
Profile Joined August 2012
United States1 Post
August 20 2012 04:55 GMT
#556
Random? no prob, just scout at 9..hell I even do it at 7 on 4 player maps..just send ur 6 probes at the start n pick 1 after it sends its first batch of mins...at the absolute latest, you will find what race/ and get a read on the random player by 16 supply...if you cant deal with it..tough luck bro.
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
August 20 2012 04:59 GMT
#557
Honestly, I wish they would just tell you what race they rolled in the loading screen. It helps both players. When I played random, I hated having my fingers on 3 keys so I could be ready to immediately make a worker.

In my experience, most random players are cheesy. Yes, they need to know all 4 matchups for all 3 races, but the simple way past that is to cheese in nearly every matchup. I've never cheesed, though I have changed my builds if I saw my opponents (usually Zerg) being greedy, meaning hatch first back then on smaller 2 player maps and small 4 player maps with close spawns. I promptly punished them for it and moved on to the next game. Although I did plenty of 2 base all ins/pushes against Zerg, because that was the metagame at the time.
Zerg.Zilla
Profile Joined February 2012
Hungary5029 Posts
August 20 2012 05:03 GMT
#558
On August 20 2012 13:54 honkeybeef wrote:
Fuck them, even if they tell you their race, 90% of the time its some stupid all in that doesnt make sense--so even if you win, there is nothing learned. Fuck randoms.

Although there are a few randoms who are fun too play. But for the most part, fuck them.

You really need to resolve your anger issues there champ..."Fuck them"? just because most of the time they all in u?
Good scouting can do wonders and usually gives u a free win.
(•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) ~Keep calm and inject Larva~
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
August 20 2012 05:07 GMT
#559
On August 20 2012 13:55 Apparatus wrote:
Random? no prob, just scout at 9..hell I even do it at 7 on 4 player maps..just send ur 6 probes at the start n pick 1 after it sends its first batch of mins...at the absolute latest, you will find what race/ and get a read on the random player by 16 supply...if you cant deal with it..tough luck bro.



But the fact is, this is STILL a build order disadvantage because you lose quite a bit of income early on compared to a normal build. Although you are more likely to choose the correct build, you are still behind. But at least you won't deal with a build order loss. It's not much different than going for a Banshee expand against a 15 Nexus when you could've gone for a 1 Rax expand with an attempt at an aggressive Bunker or a 14 CC.
freakhill
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Japan463 Posts
August 20 2012 05:15 GMT
#560
Random has been a part of the game for something like 14 years. And it's the weakest race by far (judging by tournament results of all level). Should be time for people to stop whining and start actually learning to play the game.
moo ForGG, Dragon, MVP, Gumiho, DRG, PartinG, Life]0[!
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