EPTRandom and its place on the ladder - Page 28
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
YMCApylons
Taiwan359 Posts
| ||
|
rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:10 Dfgj wrote: Those are all in-game factors. The 'random' advantage is an entirely out-of-game factor, where normal match information is denied. There's no reason for it to exist, and if it doesn't matter, as you say, then there's no impact to adding it. ...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages? And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players. Should probably read the posts I quote. | ||
|
Savant.GL
Germany502 Posts
| ||
|
FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On August 20 2012 12:34 Dfgj wrote: If I was to roll ZvP and say 'hi, I'm zerg, please FFE', anyone who trusts me on the ladder is insane. I wish that wasn't the case, but they have no way of knowing I'm not trying to fool them and there are a lot of people who would try that. This. I played a ZvR once... I don't ask for race, but someone told me he was P... he was T lol | ||
|
trGKakarot
United States129 Posts
Would lead to better games all around (imo). | ||
|
Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:16 rd wrote: ...They're out of game. To entertain the argument that PvR(Z) is entirely disadvantageous (and i'm not going to imply it is), you have a 1/6 chance (in a perfect world) of both queuing against a Protoss and randoming Zerg, so i guess that means as the quotee implies, random always gets build order advantages. And what is that even supposed to mean? Theres no reason for anything to exist other than the simplicity of existing. It's a feature of the race, and it would have an impact. It does have the advantage of limiting your opponent's options. But that doesn't necessarily constitute a build order advantage. Theres equally no reason to remove it either, other than to entertain random casuals who are overly vocal in their disdain towards random players. Should probably read the posts I quote. I'm high master P/master R. I do not like not being able to play standard games on my random account. You do not get to play normal games in some circumstances when playing Random, a fact entirely caused by the lack of information of race: something that is always provided in other cases. This does not have any impact on things in-game, it does not change balance - it simply enables normal gameplay in a situation where it is impeded This is more than just the ZvP situation (and sure, I've gotten free wins from that at times), but also people being far less willing to play normal against someone picking Random. A single glance through the thread displays the problems that leaving Random displayed as 'Random' causes in terms of how games play out. As I said, there's no reason for Random to have this difference, this comparative lack of information. | ||
|
lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
On August 20 2012 04:04 Liquid`NonY wrote: You should practice gateway openings in PvZ to fix this problem. Nony da man | ||
|
Random_Guy09
Canada1010 Posts
On August 20 2012 00:21 Vindicare605 wrote: And I don't understand why players like you feel like playing Random encourages more coin-flip situations. Is the first minute or two THAT important to you that you feel completely pressured into all inning or playing ultra greedy once you find out what race I am? Just probe scout at 9, and play the game out standard from there. Yeah sure us protoss players will probe scout at 9 and wait on pylon placement and give you a small econ lead at the beginning of the game because you cant roll a dice to choose you race. Then hope we placed a pylon in the right spot or get completely behind because you get that advantage of knowing right after teh game starts what race your facing and how greedy you can be. If you spawn zerg against toss then its just "oh look speedling rush to deny natural because they have to go some suboptimal build and barely wall off or you 6 pool and its an auto BO win" You spawn terran "oh look free pylon during a gateway expand marine rush to take down the pylon and go back home laughing" You spawn as toss " oh look suboptimal gateway expand because im random lets just do some type of rush take out pylon and win because he has to scout early and lose econ and i know the suboptimal build vs random so he has no units after the pylon dies" Jesus the only person almost everyone knows that actually isn't some guy making up excuses and being a dick and hiding his race when he plays random is Apollo. Otherwise the rest of you are just a bunch of jokes.(except those few posts i read about them wanting blizzard to show their race at the loading screen. good people you are :D) "oh i have to learn more matchups. Oh i have to learn more builds. Oh i get called a liar and a cheeser when people enter the game. Oh i want to test out a new build against something suboptimal just so i can say i won with it" You stuck up randoms (except those proper ones with respect for playing straight up games) need ot get taht stick out of your ass and see if from our end. We leave and assume those things because the large percent of random's do all that cheese and lying garbage to get an edge. Most people go on ladder to get better and practice legit matchups and BO's and dont want to have to deal with the garbage that is facing opponents blindly and having suboptimal openers while you can open standard and just rush and win games. | ||
|
rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:28 Dfgj wrote: I'm high master P/master R. I do not like not being able to play standard games on my random account. You do not get to play normal games in some circumstances when playing Random, a fact entirely caused by the lack of information of race: something that is always provided in other cases. This does not have any impact on things in-game, it does not change balance - it simply enables normal gameplay in a situation where it is impeded This is more than just the ZvP situation (and sure, I've gotten free wins from that at times), but also people being far less willing to play normal against someone picking Random. A single glance through the thread displays the problems that leaving Random displayed as 'Random' causes in terms of how games play out. As I said, there's no reason for Random to have this difference, this comparative lack of information. What's your point? You play random and that is how the game pans out. I don't pick Zerg and expect to be successful at early aggression with any remote consistency at high levels. It's a component of the race, that owes absolutely nothing to your personal grievances. If it's such a big issue that you'd spend this much time posting about it, then I don't see why you can't better spend that time rolling a die between queues. The only difference at that point is portraits. | ||
|
Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool. | ||
|
Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
Why ? Because there are match ups and match ups. As a protoss i get why they are annoying but as a T you fucking roll over them... its not like the CC first expand has that much variation depending on match up anyway. Same with Z, if said random player spawns as T or as Z he will likely get dominated ( with the mention that T can 2 rack ) and seeing as diamond + zerg are good against 1base cheese and poorly executed 2 base cheese even for P nowadays the same argument could be made for protoss. Hell, even vs P if they spawn as T they are generally screwed from the get go. What im trying to say is that tho random might seem like a coin flip for many, it's a coin flip for them as well... and one that doesn't favor them at that, thus the amount of random slowly decreases as you move further on the ladder. I do agree random is a problem, someone shouldn't get an advantage... especially if said advantage is bigger vs certain races, just cuz they play all 3 races, its there choice and only because they fell like having fun in a certain way it doesn't mean that it has to ruin the fun of other. The fact that random is allowed to hide there race its the same as a sniper being able to chose the option to play without a scope and get + x hp for doing that, it will not favor him in the end but it will annoy other people. However blizzard is known not to care about this sort of things and until a good chunk of random player will reach rating high enough so that i face them in more than 1 out of 50 games I will happily say "meh". | ||
|
Sporadic44
United States533 Posts
| ||
|
rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:43 Dfgj wrote: Zerg is a race. Random is not. It's a tool to allow you to play all the races freely. If this tool has problems, we can circumvent it with a die, or fix the tool. Random is a race. The "tool" that allows you to play all the races freely is the ability to choose a race before you queue. Neither the race or tool have any problems -- you simply think they were made for different functions that cater or should to what you want. | ||
|
honkeybeef
United States143 Posts
Although there are a few randoms who are fun too play. But for the most part, fuck them. | ||
|
Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:51 rd wrote: Random is a race. The "tool" that allows you to play all the races freely is the ability to choose a race before you queue. Neither the race or tool have any problems -- you simply think they were made for different functions that cater or should to what you want. You are incorrect. Random does not have its own units. It does not have its own gameplay changes. It is an entirely out-of-game tool to select one of the races. Once the game has begun, there is only Z, P, T. The only 'advantage' random has is in muddling the standard amount of information about the races within the game. There is no reason for choosing to select Random having an impact on how a game plays out between the races. | ||
|
Apparatus
United States1 Post
| ||
|
RyLai
United States477 Posts
In my experience, most random players are cheesy. Yes, they need to know all 4 matchups for all 3 races, but the simple way past that is to cheese in nearly every matchup. I've never cheesed, though I have changed my builds if I saw my opponents (usually Zerg) being greedy, meaning hatch first back then on smaller 2 player maps and small 4 player maps with close spawns. I promptly punished them for it and moved on to the next game. Although I did plenty of 2 base all ins/pushes against Zerg, because that was the metagame at the time. | ||
|
Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:54 honkeybeef wrote: Fuck them, even if they tell you their race, 90% of the time its some stupid all in that doesnt make sense--so even if you win, there is nothing learned. Fuck randoms. Although there are a few randoms who are fun too play. But for the most part, fuck them. You really need to resolve your anger issues there champ..."Fuck them"? just because most of the time they all in u? Good scouting can do wonders and usually gives u a free win. | ||
|
RyLai
United States477 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:55 Apparatus wrote: Random? no prob, just scout at 9..hell I even do it at 7 on 4 player maps..just send ur 6 probes at the start n pick 1 after it sends its first batch of mins...at the absolute latest, you will find what race/ and get a read on the random player by 16 supply...if you cant deal with it..tough luck bro. But the fact is, this is STILL a build order disadvantage because you lose quite a bit of income early on compared to a normal build. Although you are more likely to choose the correct build, you are still behind. But at least you won't deal with a build order loss. It's not much different than going for a Banshee expand against a 15 Nexus when you could've gone for a 1 Rax expand with an attempt at an aggressive Bunker or a 14 CC. | ||
|
freakhill
Japan463 Posts
| ||
| ||
