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On August 20 2012 03:27 ODKStevez wrote:
Random should reveal the race they are playing in my opinion. I don't like having that last scout on a 4 player map and not knowing what is coming. Especially as Protoss. But they do have less skill in each race. But I think their race should be revealed because I don't like the coin flip aspect of it.
So we should ban all ins and cheese strategies too right because no one likes them and they're coin flippy right?
Randoms are as much a part of the game as anything else. You don't have to like them to accept that they belong right where they are.
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On August 20 2012 02:20 ChiknAdobo wrote:
I think the presumed advantage and disadvantage of playing against random players are not as big as you think. Terran can 1 rax FE in all matchups, Protoss can 1 gate FE, and Zerg can 14 pool 16 hatch in all matchups. So there is a safe 'macro' build that you can play. If your complaint is that you don't get good practice against random players then that is BS because it means you are relying on a build order for your advantage then solid mechanics and decision making.
In starcraft your mindset has a huge impact on how well you play and when a player goes into a game thinking they are at a disadvantage then you will be affected. So get rid of the 'oh I'm at such a disadvantage mindset' scout and play a good solid game.
You can't 1gate fe vs protoss. There is no protoss build that is "safe" vs everything.
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T v R--
TvP 1 rax expo TvZ 1 rax expo TvT 1 rax expo
P v R--
PvT Set up for a 1 gate expo and react to your probes scout into 3 gate expo (PvZ) or tech/4 gate (PvP) depending
Z v R--
ZvP Set up for a 14 hatch and pool if you see the probe ZvZ 14 Hatch 14 pool ZvT 14 hatch 14 pool
There that wasnt so hard
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I play random and am at 1100 point masters right now. I play random because I believe in playing on my toes and forcing other players to play like this as well. It makes them uncomfortable and they play badly when they are out of their routine. I feel like if someone truly understands the game then they should have no problem against Random.
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1gate nexus pvz is good opening done by many pro players. There is no problem with random at all. (unless ur autopilot player unable to react to what he sees)
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On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it.
I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game.
Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
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On August 20 2012 03:38 Daimai wrote:
I think random should reveal what race they spawn as on the loading screen. Absurd how they haven't done that yet.
To the people saying that random is supposed to have a small advantage over you, it's the player who picks random who CHOOSES to gimp himself by needing to learn three races. It's HIS fault that he wants to play random. I should not be affected in any shape, way or form by HIS choice. If someone chooses to play on a laptop with the touchpad, it's HIS fault that he is gimping his performance and I should not be forced to use a touchpad instead of a mouse because of this.
Shouldn't you be punished for choosing to learn how to play only 1/3 of the game?
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The only problem I can perhaps see is if a random inconsistently reveals the race. A random who gets higher in the ladder without revealing the race and then starts revealing will lose more at the onset of revealing. A random who climbs the ladder with revealing the race and then stops revealing the race will win more at the stopping of revealing. It shouldn't matter as long as people are consistent with their revealing or not revealing.
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So, I have to ask, is it just me that hates random?
Man, suck it up. Grow some balls, and learn to respect a guy who can play every race as well as you play your one race. This isn't worth a thread.
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I'm a random player myself. I go for random in all of my games and in 1v1s I tell my race at the start of the beginning. I fully support the idea of showing the race beforehand though as some matchups create retarded games. Especially PvR and RvR. My experience from RvR is that nearly every random doesn't tell you his race or straight up lies to get an advantage. I remember two RvRs where I tell my race (zerg) he responds with terran and then hardcore cannon rushes my hatch first.......
The argument of having to learn more matchups is cheap and stupid. It's not like I am forced to play random and need some counterweight advantage. I play random for the sole purpose of variety and the problems is that many of the matchups arent actually TvZ, Tvp, PvP they are RvT, RvP, RvZ which sucks and as random is basically not present at pro level some "equalizing advantage" is useless.
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On August 19 2012 22:40 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 22:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2012 22:27 XenoX101 wrote:
I completely agree, the game is so strongly designed around the 6 core matchups, throwing a technically speaking 4th race into the mix just unnecessarily complicates things. You have to prepare a second set of overly safe build orders just for the off ~2% chance that you get a random player. And for what, random players being slightly compensated for choosing random? I can't see why the game should give incentive to spreading your skill thin across three races, particularly when the entire pro scene and game philosophy is focuses on the idea of honing in on a particular race's strengths and weaknesses against other races. Moreover, because random players are technically playing the 4th race, they aren't even playing each matchup the within the current, highly developed metagame, since our reaction to their being random throws this out the window, turning it into a bastardized 'random player metagame' that only random players know. You could even argue that part of their success is solely due to knowing the random metagame better than non-random players since they play it 100% of the time versus our ~2%.
Personally I think this is simply a case of Blizzard wanting to play it safe and stay true to Brood War, as I'm sure there would be many outcries and petitions from the ~1-2% that play random if it wasn't included in SC2. But I think moving forward with Heart of the Swarm, cutting the random player advantage is definitely something they should be considering, not only for the benefit of non-random players but to give random players the opportunity to play the real XvX meta-games. The Ladder isn't the pro-scene. Why should you be rewarded for only learning 1/3rd of the game? See how I can use this logic also? It's very wrong. The ladder is not the pro scene, you are correct, but Blizzard have made the statement many many times that they like the idea of ladder being really competetive and tournament like.
And you have random players in tournaments just like ladder unless we are talking GSL or high end tournaments where the pros are playing.
People need to get over the fact that they are not going pro and should be playing Sc2 to enjoy the game and not waste their time complaining about every little thing.
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I like random players, but I think that if you are going professional playing random does not cut it. You need to practice one race and be godlike with it. But I don't dislike random players, besides if you scout early it should not be a problem unless it's a big map and they decide to 6pool or proxy you for some strange reason.
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On August 20 2012 03:50 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:20 ChiknAdobo wrote:
I think the presumed advantage and disadvantage of playing against random players are not as big as you think. Terran can 1 rax FE in all matchups, Protoss can 1 gate FE, and Zerg can 14 pool 16 hatch in all matchups. So there is a safe 'macro' build that you can play. If your complaint is that you don't get good practice against random players then that is BS because it means you are relying on a build order for your advantage then solid mechanics and decision making.
In starcraft your mindset has a huge impact on how well you play and when a player goes into a game thinking they are at a disadvantage then you will be affected. So get rid of the 'oh I'm at such a disadvantage mindset' scout and play a good solid game. You can't 1gate fe vs protoss. There is no protoss build that is "safe" vs everything.
So react to the fact that you scouted protoss and swap the nexus for something else.
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8751 Posts
You should practice gateway openings in PvZ to fix this problem.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
if random players had such a "huge advantage" then you would see professional players play random. although it provides a superficial advantage that you have pointed out, that advantage is meaningless when you play against a competent player. you are losing all of these PvR because you arent addressing them correctly and instead are trying to do cookie cutter builds that you apparently already know are ineffective. try doing a new strategy and see how it works out for you instead of complaining about the "imbalance" of something nobody who is good would ever complain about.
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I have always the problem (I'm random) that protoss players just go blind forge and cannon rush me in the case I'm not zerg.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
PvR when they're Zerg is the hardest because you're not able to FFE, that I agree with. However, not being able to FFE will not cost you the game. 1 gate expand is still a viable choice vs Zerg, just not as strong as FFE.
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I think the random players race should be displayed somewhere for the same reason that everybody is basically saying, its an unfair advantage, they chose to pick random they should be able to accept not being able to do bullshit plays just because they picked random....hide my race too, then see how the game plays out.
In the end a person that wants to truly learn all 3 races will benefit from their race showing because they get to practice vs real strategies, not some stitched together crap after the guy finds out what you are.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
You are losing PvR(Z) because you don't know any other viable PvZ openers, and because you spend too much time on this forum complaining when Blizzard clearly won't be making a change due to this thread (instead of practicing a 1gate expand, for example).
If it bothers you that much just leave the game.
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On August 20 2012 03:56 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:46 K3Nyy wrote:On August 20 2012 03:35 ChiknAdobo wrote:
For all the people who are saying you can't get good practice by playing against random I don't think you understand what it means to get good practice. Unless you are tip top masters or GM your opener has the least influential impact on the outcome of the game. Good practice is working on your macro and mechanics effectively. So just because you have to adapt your build a little bit at the beginning that isn't why you lose a game. The main reason why you lose is because you get supply blocked or aren't making continuous workers or not hitting your injects. You don't lose a game because you went 1 gate FE instead of FFE. And for the people who complain about randoms always cheesing (which at higher levels for the most part is false) playing against random challenges your crisis control and scouting. If you are using a build that can't hold off an early pool or proxy unless you know what race they are playing ahead of time then that isn't a good build. So stop the QQ and realize that playing against random forces you to scout better and to really focus on good mechanics. Totally agree with this 100%. Most people that complain are too low level to have the right to complain about anything and should just focus on their fundamentals first. Yeah it's unfair, but no, you're not losing because of it. I have to disagree with this. I am losing pvr(z)'s because of not being able to ffe. And to your first point, nobody here is complaining abbout in game balance with this, it's the lack of information that provides a huge advantage in the early game to the random player, that depending on the matchup, can affect the late game. Also, random players can do strategies that normally would not work if the opponent knew the race. Because they queued random, they can get away with certain things. That is where I personally draw a line, when a strategy can work because they queued random.
You realize that there's a lot more openings than ffe in PvZ?
And you realize that ZvP is the hardest matchup for random players, because it's impossible to practice it?
MMR statistics don't lie, Random is by far the weakest race on the ladder. I'm always happy when I play against random, because it means an easier win for me. That stuff about cheesing makes no sense as well. Regardless of the matchup being PvR, PvZ, PvT or PvP, either I scout the cheese and can prepare for it or I don't scout it and am most likely screwed. Since I scout earlier vs Random as well, it's way more easy for me to hold a random cheese than a protoss cheese, which is somewhat impossible, since I scout very late if I know my opponent is toss.
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