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![[image loading]](http://evilgeniuses.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/gregzvz_medium.jpg)
So, ZvZ tends to be the least favorite matchup, overall, right now. It's hectic, it's difficult to gauge, and a lot of players simply don't understand it. I was recently able to talk with IdrA to discuss some of the basics of standard Roach-based ZvZ as well as to get his thoughts on the matchup in general. In it, he admits that, for him, a lot of the midgame is very uncertain, and he "just kind of [does] stuff." He also says that, though the ZvZ metagame is not in a good place right now, the problem is on the players' end and is not an issue of balance.
Here's an excerpt:
+ Show Spoiler +Speaking broadly on ZvZ, IdrA believes that the only problem with it, per se, is that no one seems to fully understand it yet. Though many StarCraft II fans tend to place the matchup alongside early-2011 PvP in terms of enjoyment, there is no stagnancy in the sense that you have to do one specific build (or minor variations thereof) in order to stand a chance. In fact, IdrA believes the opposite is the problem. “It’s too dynamic,” he says. “There are so many different possible builds and styles and strategies that everything feels very random and hard to be good at–in a bad way.” He adds, though, that “it is the kind of thing that could be solved as players get better and more experienced. I don’t think any patching needs to be aimed at ZvZ for the time being.”
So, there is a lot going on in ZvZ. While the early game has been mapped out fairly thoroughly, most everything past the early midgame relies on knowing what your opponent is doing and understanding when you’re safe to build your tech and economy. From there, the matchup seems to be a constant test of pressure and harassment. With no hard counters being available to the enemy composition in most ZvZ scenarios, success is largely a matter of on-the-spot decision making coupled with, of course, strong mechanics. While this matchup may currently be the one that players and fans enjoy the least, there is something special about a matchup that requires constant analysis of the other player’s strategic moves. While it can be frustrating, for sure, to play such a chaotic type of game, it can also feel extremely rewarding when one comes out on top.
Full article here
What do you think? I personally have been doing pretty well with ZvZ on the ladder, but virtually everyone else I've heard from loathes the match. Does anyone else here not mind ZvZ?
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nestea doesnt mind zvz.
and life neither
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ZvZ is a matchup mostly of mindgames. Its similar to PvP in the respect that the smallest decision can impact the game overall. The volatility of ZvZ comes from the speed of the units and zergs natural weak defense. My favorite matchup when mutas aren't involved imo.
edit: also, quoting Idra adds nothing to the discussion..get an interview from nestea or drg.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Roach to roach. It's so interesting. I have hope for Hots, where that Roach-festor combo will not be an ultimate combo in zvz
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While Nestea is extremely good at ZvZ, i dont think its fair to say that Idra adds nothing to the discussion. His best match up is ZvZ at least from my experience watching him play. It might be because of his better mechanics but i think ZvZ comes to a lot of scouting, and the way zerg produces units.
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On July 04 2012 04:51 zeratul_jf wrote:
While Nestea is extremely good at ZvZ, i dont think its fair to say that Idra adds nothing to the discussion. His best match up is ZvZ at least from my experience watching him play. It might be because of his better mechanics but i think ZvZ comes to a lot of scouting, and the way zerg produces units.
His worst mu is ZvZ..his best is ZvT..according to him anyway.
Also: its strange when scouting comes into play as both players usually know what each others are doing.
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well at least he doesn't think the problem is balance
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On July 04 2012 04:52 Sc2Null wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 04:51 zeratul_jf wrote:
While Nestea is extremely good at ZvZ, i dont think its fair to say that Idra adds nothing to the discussion. His best match up is ZvZ at least from my experience watching him play. It might be because of his better mechanics but i think ZvZ comes to a lot of scouting, and the way zerg produces units. His worst mu is ZvZ..his best is ZvT..according to him anyway. Also: its strange when scouting comes into play as both players usually know what each others are doing.
Yea according to him, but take into account that because they like to play a match up doesnt mean that they always do good in it. I mean stephano said his best was ZvT, but his ZvP had a better record. While this could be because he faces higher lvl players that play T rather than P, but its enough to proof my point that a players self proclaimed best match up isnt always their best per say.
While at the start is really easy to see what your opponent is doing because there is no denying overloads, mid and on is a different story. As more creep is around for your queens to deny vision, also mutas could come into play. But i meant scouting as in when is my opponent building and army, when is he droning. And because of the way zerg is one can go from hey im done droning to bam mass army in a few production cycles.
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On July 04 2012 04:59 zeratul_jf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 04:52 Sc2Null wrote:On July 04 2012 04:51 zeratul_jf wrote:
While Nestea is extremely good at ZvZ, i dont think its fair to say that Idra adds nothing to the discussion. His best match up is ZvZ at least from my experience watching him play. It might be because of his better mechanics but i think ZvZ comes to a lot of scouting, and the way zerg produces units. His worst mu is ZvZ..his best is ZvT..according to him anyway. Also: its strange when scouting comes into play as both players usually know what each others are doing. Yea according to him, but take into account that because they like to play a match up doesnt mean that they always do good in it. I mean stephano said his best was ZvT, but his ZvP had a better record. While this could be because he faces higher lvl players that play T rather than P, but its enough to proof my point that a players self proclaimed best match up isnt always their best per say. While at the start is really easy to see what your opponent is doing because there is no denying overloads, mid and on is a different story. As more creep is around for your queens to deny vision, also mutas could come into play. But i meant scouting as in when is my opponent building and army, when is he droning. And because of the way zerg is one can go from hey im done droning to bam mass army in a few production cycles.
That's where the danger of ZvZ comes in, ZvZ is the enbodiment of JulyZerg..Determining whether your opponent is droning or army is the difference between winning and losing.
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Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.
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On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.
didnt sirscoots already tell you to not look at anything related to EG? didnt get the clue, huh?
blog was meh. nothing groundbreaking in it. always nice to see pro-players thoughts though.
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I'm not surprised he is voicing that patching is not needed to fix zvz, after warp gates, and pylons got nerfed to "fix pvp" (then archons became massive to break FF's, immortals got a range buff to fix 1/1/1, and they changed how ramp vision works, yet somehow 4 gate is still the most popular option in pvp)
The warp gate nerf to fix pvp had a bigger impact on pvz and pvt. I wouldn't want them to patch ZvZ either after seeing that, they might nerf larva inject, banlings, or ling speed.
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On July 04 2012 05:07 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago. didnt sirscoots already tell you to not look at anything related to EG? didnt get the clue, huh?
I never ever saw one good post from you.
I would like it if you dont visit tl anymore. Will you do it? Or do you decide on your own what to watch and what not?
User was warned for this post
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United States15275 Posts
2 base mutalisk ---> 3rd is heavily underrated.
Also being consistently good at ZvZ involves intuitive reads and knowing the limitations of your opponent's options. Since there are no hard build orders and general strategies, it's no wonder that many players struggle in it.
In terms of another game, ZvZ vs PvP is like using Dormammu vs Morrigan in UMvC3
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I actually really like ZvZ. How can it be a bad thing that there are so many viable styles ? (what Idra describes as randomness). I'll take that over PvZ any day. A matchup that is basically defined from the beginning to the end is a bad matchup in my opinion.
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I have my hopes up that ZvZ evolves into something more the what it was in brood war, and then it might actully be an interesting matchup.
I want it to be on the same level of fun and fairnes as PvP and TvT.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 04 2012 05:17 CrtBalorda wrote:
I have my hopes up that ZvZ evolves into something more the what it was in brood war, and then it might actully be an interesting matchup.
I want it to be on the same level of fun and fairnes as PvP and TvT.
ZvZ will never be standardized. Every mirror matchup exaggerates the strengths of the race involved, and that is simply not zerg works.
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On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.
except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.
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I for one love to watch ZvZ. It's so micro intensive and random. Never knowing what will happen and the smallest mistake makes you lose.
But I hate playing it. So frustrating. :/
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EPT
