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The State of ZvZ: IdrA’s Thoughts on the Metagame - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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SilSol
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden2744 Posts
July 03 2012 20:22 GMT
#21
I think ZvZ is a pretty good matchup tho. Not to be harsh or anything.. At least it's not worse than PvP or TvT.. ZvZ games are more interesting than the other mirror matchs. Well as of now more protoss players as myself tends to use carriers late game but that's just new.

ZvZ with all the fungals/macro to 200/200 asap with roachs, or some muta harass etcetc is quite interesting imo. And the ZvZ matchup itself i think many "understands it" but haven't evolved it enough yet like every other matchup.
http://fragbite.se/user/117868/silsol since 2006 http://www.reddit.com/u/silsol77
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
July 03 2012 20:26 GMT
#22
As a protoss player, honestly this article is nice, to get an idea of what the matchup is like. The article pretty much does what it says, which perhaps casters might find useful.
Whole
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States6046 Posts
July 03 2012 20:29 GMT
#23
On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.


except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.

and that mass ghosts would be the new thing (then snipe nerf...)
jdsowa
Profile Joined March 2011
405 Posts
July 03 2012 20:34 GMT
#24
If scouted, 2-base muta is vulnerable to preemptive mass roach timing. I frequently get wins this way.

Also, as long as you have a pack of 16-20 speedlings, you can prevent the player going muta from taking his 3rd, because you can snipe with speedling run-by just as easily as he can prevent your 3rd.
SupItsG
Profile Joined March 2011
United States59 Posts
July 03 2012 20:35 GMT
#25
On July 04 2012 05:17 CrtBalorda wrote:
I want it to be on the same level of fun and fairnes as PvP and TvT.


I think PvP is worse tbh
Coolness53
Profile Joined April 2010
United States668 Posts
July 03 2012 20:43 GMT
#26
On July 04 2012 05:19 Flossy wrote:
I for one love to watch ZvZ. It's so micro intensive and random. Never knowing what will happen and the smallest mistake makes you lose.

But I hate playing it. So frustrating. :/


Agreed watching it is fun but playing it can be very frustrating.
Fruitdealer, DongRaeGu, and Soulkey
SeaSwift
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Scotland4486 Posts
July 03 2012 20:45 GMT
#27
ZvZ is a fun matchup to watch, especially when you get Stephano's upgraded ling -> Ultras craziness vs standard Roach builds.

All the mirrors are evolving into epic matchups, just recently we had Squirtle vs MC, then before that we had Violet vs Symbol at Spring Arena, and TvT has been solid forever. Tbh I prefer the mirrors to the non-mirrors in many ways atm.
Cenja
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden498 Posts
July 03 2012 20:47 GMT
#28
On July 04 2012 05:17 CrtBalorda wrote:
I have my hopes up that ZvZ evolves into something more the what it was in brood war, and then it might actully be an interesting matchup.

I want it to be on the same level of fun and fairnes as PvP and TvT.

You mean muta vs muta? I'm not sure we will see that, I'm no expert but I think that larva inject makes zergling and roach play stronger than it would be in BW. Since you have more larva / hatchery you will be able to produce more units, especially those that are cheap. Basically if you rush for mutalisks the other play will be able to get a ton of cheap units because he will have so much larva. I could be wrong obviously it's just some thought I have.

I enjoy to watch zergling-baneling wars due to the pace but the roach midgame is so dull.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
artosismermaid
Profile Joined May 2011
213 Posts
July 03 2012 20:48 GMT
#29
this guy talks far too much about sc2 and doesn't play enough of it
Benjamin99
Profile Joined April 2012
4176 Posts
July 03 2012 20:51 GMT
#30
On July 04 2012 04:46 Sc2Null wrote:
ZvZ is a matchup mostly of mindgames. Its similar to PvP in the respect that the smallest decision can impact the game overall. The volatility of ZvZ comes from the speed of the units and zergs natural weak defense. My favorite matchup when mutas aren't involved imo.

edit: also, quoting Idra adds nothing to the discussion..get an interview from nestea or drg.


You dont have to be a dick. Idra is very experienced progamer im sure he knows wtf he is talking about
Stephano & Jaedong <-- The Pain Train. Polt and Innovation to EG plz
keglu
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland485 Posts
July 03 2012 20:52 GMT
#31
On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.


except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.


What exactly did he predict?
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
July 03 2012 20:54 GMT
#32
ZvZ is still better than PvP.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
DidYuhim
Profile Joined September 2011
Ukraine1905 Posts
July 03 2012 20:54 GMT
#33
Early ZvZ's were a micro-fest. In games like those could gauge the actual skill of a player. These days everyone plays the "safe" FE/Roach builds. Unless you do something plain retarded you will not die.
"PSHHPHSSSPHSSSSWIEEEEWIEEEIWEEEEE".
DidYuhim
Profile Joined September 2011
Ukraine1905 Posts
July 03 2012 20:56 GMT
#34
On July 04 2012 05:51 Benjamin99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 04:46 Sc2Null wrote:
ZvZ is a matchup mostly of mindgames. Its similar to PvP in the respect that the smallest decision can impact the game overall. The volatility of ZvZ comes from the speed of the units and zergs natural weak defense. My favorite matchup when mutas aren't involved imo.

edit: also, quoting Idra adds nothing to the discussion..get an interview from nestea or drg.


You dont have to be a dick. Idra is very experienced progamer im sure he knows wtf he is talking about

I might get warned for saying this, but Idra has more interviews than actual tournament wins. Not like it matters, he's very experienced progamer and stuff.

User was warned for this post
Skwid1g
Profile Joined April 2011
United States953 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:00:07
July 03 2012 20:58 GMT
#35
On July 04 2012 05:48 artosismermaid wrote:
this guy talks far too much about sc2 and doesn't play enough of it


...

Doing an interview constitutes that? He plays quite a bit, according to his ladder record.

On July 04 2012 05:56 DidYuhim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 05:51 Benjamin99 wrote:
On July 04 2012 04:46 Sc2Null wrote:
ZvZ is a matchup mostly of mindgames. Its similar to PvP in the respect that the smallest decision can impact the game overall. The volatility of ZvZ comes from the speed of the units and zergs natural weak defense. My favorite matchup when mutas aren't involved imo.

edit: also, quoting Idra adds nothing to the discussion..get an interview from nestea or drg.


You dont have to be a dick. Idra is very experienced progamer im sure he knows wtf he is talking about

I might get warned for saying this, but Idra has more interviews than actual tournament wins. Not like it matters, he's very experienced progamer and stuff.


So does every other good player. Because if you are a popular player you'll get interviewed at every tournament and people will be asking for interviews in between tournaments as well. It's just that interviews from equally skilled players don't stand out as much, because they're not as popular as Idra.
NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls
DidYuhim
Profile Joined September 2011
Ukraine1905 Posts
July 03 2012 21:05 GMT
#36
On July 04 2012 05:58 Skwid1g wrote:So does every other good player. Because if you are a popular player you'll get interviewed at every tournament and people will be asking for interviews in between tournaments as well. It's just that interviews from equally skilled players don't stand out as much, because they're not as popular as Idra.

No? Being popular and being good are pretty different things, sir. There are players that figured out ZvZ. Just because one popular player can't do it, he starts posting random stuff and it get re-posted to different sites and this is how a myth is born. And after it, come Blizzard "Oh, hey, guys, a lot of people say that *** is overpowered. Let's nerf it".
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
July 03 2012 21:09 GMT
#37
IdrA's opinion on how match-ups will evolve has historically been correct from what I can recall. I don't think this is such a good article though, it's a bit light on real analysis.

Also, if people will whine and complain every time they see the name IdrA then what's IdrA's incentive for caring about what any of you think? Or reading these forums? Some people seem to forget that he is just an adolescent barely in his twenties that likes competing and playing video games. He does not owe you anything and you have no right to expect him to fulfill any of your bizarre fantasies of a pro-gamer that plays games 14 hours a day and has no opinions about anything. How pathetic is it to go to every thread involving him and complain that he should shut his mouth and practice?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:10:39
July 03 2012 21:09 GMT
#38
On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.


except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.

What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP?

8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.)

So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues.
aznball123
Profile Joined February 2012
2759 Posts
July 03 2012 21:24 GMT
#39
ZvZ has been pretty amazing lately, especially in the GSTL.
Mmm, what to watch.
Scrubwave
Profile Joined July 2010
Poland1786 Posts
July 03 2012 21:24 GMT
#40
--- Nuked ---
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