• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 02:09
CET 08:09
KST 16:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server? How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 991 users

The State of ZvZ: IdrA’s Thoughts on the Metagame - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
An2quamaraN
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland379 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:25:06
July 03 2012 21:24 GMT
#41
Please...why we need to hear the opinion of Idra...? I may listen to someone who is good at Starcraft or at least does well currently, not someone who has 33% W/L ratio in 2012...Code S zergs for example.

From what i see, people that utilize things like nydus worms, focus on upgrades and has good usage of infestors, don't seem to have problems with ZvZ. I would take Symbol as an example.
Irave
Profile Joined October 2010
United States9965 Posts
July 03 2012 21:25 GMT
#42
I truly enjoy watching ZvZ. Its come a long way.
AgentChaos
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom4569 Posts
July 03 2012 21:29 GMT
#43
at least its better than pvp
IM & EG supporter
Fortii
Profile Joined December 2011
Germany760 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:31:10
July 03 2012 21:29 GMT
#44
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.

personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak.
IdrA!
procrastibation
Profile Joined July 2012
81 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 22:09:43
July 03 2012 21:32 GMT
#45
Not much to see here. Just a scripted interview made by EG's pr team to make as much money as possible. I doubt these are idra's genuine and original opinions. EG went through an entire process of PR and editing to create a perfect article with the sole purpose of getting as many views as possible so they make money. I mean why the hell would idra want to share his opinions, if not to make as much money as possible. We all know that Idra's true opinion would be more like "omg zvz total coinflip can't win even tho i'm more skilled blizzard are imbeciles," but this wouldn't be as popular as a totally scripted interview that has been designed to be as popular as possible to get the maximum amount of viewers possible. just the same old corporate scheming to find out ways to make as much possible money with no consideration for the consumer
wcr.4fun
Profile Joined April 2012
Belgium686 Posts
July 03 2012 21:34 GMT
#46
idra is pretty much right though. If you watch a lot of zvz's, every single one is different. That's all he's saying and I have to agree based on the zvz's I've seen recently.

You've got the occasional lings/blings wars. The mass roach wars. The hydra is becoming a lot more popular all of the sudden. People are researching drops and doing massive drops with roaches. Surprise buttrape nydus is being used a lot. Muta's were really popular, then got raped by fungals, now people split their muta's and are raping infestors. Even ultra's and broodlords are seeing their uses. And there's no real indication of what can or will happen in a zvz. One moment you might have a ling/bling war and the next they're teching towards ultra's.
you basically can't do anything wrong in this match up concerning strategy.
how2TL
Profile Joined August 2010
1197 Posts
July 03 2012 21:38 GMT
#47
ZvZzzzzzz

At least Roach vs Roach, that is a damn snoozefest.
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
July 03 2012 21:42 GMT
#48
ZvZ is awesome to watch right now, even if it is a bitch to play.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
Goetzinho ftw
Profile Joined June 2012
Germany115 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-04 03:10:56
July 03 2012 21:43 GMT
#49
No one cares what a lower mediocre foreigners says about the matchup.

User was temp banned for this post and other crappy posts.
Diavlo
Profile Joined July 2011
Belgium2915 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:46:13
July 03 2012 21:43 GMT
#50
On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.


except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.

What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP?

8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.)

So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues.


You do realize that Morrow switched to zerg late 2010 right? 7 month ago IdrA was saying that Morrow had a very interesting ZvP style with lings and bling drops and was actually very good.

As for his view on ZvZ i don't really think there is anything groundbreaking, it's clear that every top player kinda do whatever... Symbol and DRG have good ZvZ records because they just have way better mechanics than most. Even Nestea who seemed to have all the openings and early roach timings down to the tee just looks like every other good zerg now (with actually less refined mechanics).

EDIT: wtf, i know the article is not the most fascinating but half of the posts are just retarded attacks on IdrA.


"I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm gonna get real weird with it."
Embir
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland567 Posts
July 03 2012 21:44 GMT
#51
On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.

personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak.


Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2.
As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department...
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
July 03 2012 21:46 GMT
#52
On July 04 2012 04:45 Paljas wrote:
nestea doesnt mind zvz.
and life neither


K. Cool comment. Did Idra say he minds it? He simply says it's got a lot of development and potential in store for the future. That being said, it follows that it's difficult for most if not all people to understand it fully.
FrogOfWar
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany1406 Posts
July 03 2012 21:47 GMT
#53
I don't mind ZvZ, as long as Bnet doesn't give me 10 in a row. There is quite a number of strategies you can do and games turn out very differently, a big improvement from Broodwar methinks. The queen buff has improved the matchup too, because if you're sick of baneling wars, you can get pretty ling/bling proof with queens and spines and simply avoid it.
AsymptoticClimax
Profile Joined May 2012
United Kingdom249 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:50:20
July 03 2012 21:49 GMT
#54
On July 04 2012 04:49 Existor wrote:
Roach to roach. It's so interesting. I have hope for Hots, where that Roach-festor combo will not be an ultimate combo in zvz


My predictions are Swarmhost/Hydra with speed upgrade maybe complimented by a few vipers to counter infestors if needed.


Also: I dont mind ZvZ since I win like 90% of them somehow.
i wish my motherboard would find a fatherboard so i could have anotherboard
dragoon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States695 Posts
July 03 2012 21:49 GMT
#55
On July 04 2012 04:59 zeratul_jf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 04:52 Sc2Null wrote:
On July 04 2012 04:51 zeratul_jf wrote:
While Nestea is extremely good at ZvZ, i dont think its fair to say that Idra adds nothing to the discussion. His best match up is ZvZ at least from my experience watching him play. It might be because of his better mechanics but i think ZvZ comes to a lot of scouting, and the way zerg produces units.


His worst mu is ZvZ..his best is ZvT..according to him anyway.

Also: its strange when scouting comes into play as both players usually know what each others are doing.



Yea according to him, but take into account that because they like to play a match up doesnt mean that they always do good in it. I mean stephano said his best was ZvT, but his ZvP had a better record. While this could be because he faces higher lvl players that play T rather than P, but its enough to proof my point that a players self proclaimed best match up isnt always their best per say.

While at the start is really easy to see what your opponent is doing because there is no denying overloads, mid and on is a different story. As more creep is around for your queens to deny vision, also mutas could come into play. But i meant scouting as in when is my opponent building and army, when is he droning. And because of the way zerg is one can go from hey im done droning to bam mass army in a few production cycles.

your best match up is, for the most part, the one you're most comfortable in. winrate doesn't always matter
i love you
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
July 03 2012 21:52 GMT
#56
I love watching ZvZ, very hard to play though. I love how, like in TvT, every unit is viable to an extent, and there is so much room for micro and mind games.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
FuGGu
Profile Joined March 2012
United States176 Posts
July 03 2012 21:53 GMT
#57
I agree, I love watching ZvZ! Some matchups like TvT or PvZ can get super stale and predictable, but ZvZ always seems to be a crazy damn ride every game...it's a refreshing change to watch sometimes.
haffy
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom430 Posts
July 03 2012 21:54 GMT
#58
I'll take ZvZ over ZvP any day. Balance completely aside, ZvP is fucking boring.


Everything he says in the article seems really solid to me, especially the 15 pool/15 hatch opening over 14pool/14 gas. However I think he's kind of throwing hydras aside too quickly. I think ZvZ is the one match up where they're actually a stable strategy, unlike ZvP where at certain points in the match up they become almost useless. Also I think against the ling/infester/ultra style hydras become much better. Kind of hard to know though because of how often it happens.
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
July 03 2012 21:56 GMT
#59
IDK about the least favorite match-up part... ZvZ is actually pretty fun to watch AND to play. I even find some zvz matches much more entertaining than the ZvP late game "vortex broodlord dance".
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
July 03 2012 22:00 GMT
#60
On July 04 2012 06:44 Embir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.

personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak.


Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2.
As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department...

is there an expiration date on results? idra has a long history of talent.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 51m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft600
NeuroSwarm 105
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 472
PianO 317
Leta 158
sorry 90
yabsab 40
Killer 34
ajuk12(nOOB) 31
Noble 14
Icarus 5
League of Legends
JimRising 647
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor140
Other Games
summit1g9127
XaKoH 293
RuFF_SC2120
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick616
BasetradeTV47
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 27
• Berry_CruncH3
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1176
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 51m
Wardi Open
4h 51m
Monday Night Weeklies
9h 51m
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.