|
On July 04 2012 07:56 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 07:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 04 2012 06:44 Embir wrote:On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.
personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak. Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2. As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department... is there an expiration date on results? idra has a long history of talent. he doesn't get top 10 at all in MLG, Dreamhack, or any major tournaments he enters anymore. even when he was "good", he lost to hallucinated void rays, terrans blowing up their own command centers, and "walkovers" like cruncher  he has a history of being a douche but in beta he could back it up, but now he just keeps losing credibility. it IS hilarious to see him rage though, so he's got that going for him. oh and that and calling koreans terrible, when they would roflstomp him in a bo10 showmatch
Bo10 exist?
Lacking results doesn't make him less right when talking about the game. In fact, I'd wager Idra is alot smart about the game than most foreigners at least, so to say he doesn't have results to take credibility from anythig he says is quite stupid, imo.
|
People claim IdrA has some of the best mechanics out there. That granted, wouldn't he be a tip top player then if he also understands the game so well (which he claims to do)? I mean, for me the guy just doesn't appear very credible in questions such as these. He has a big ego though, gotta give him that.
|
On July 04 2012 08:01 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 07:56 fishjie wrote:On July 04 2012 07:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 04 2012 06:44 Embir wrote:On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.
personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak. Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2. As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department... is there an expiration date on results? idra has a long history of talent. he doesn't get top 10 at all in MLG, Dreamhack, or any major tournaments he enters anymore. even when he was "good", he lost to hallucinated void rays, terrans blowing up their own command centers, and "walkovers" like cruncher he has a history of being a douche but in beta he could back it up, but now he just keeps losing credibility. it IS hilarious to see him rage though, so he's got that going for him. oh and that and calling koreans terrible, when they would roflstomp him in a bo10 showmatch his results have been less than stellar this year--no doubt about that. but his history has shown he has staying power. he is more than qualified to express opinions on how the game is being played, and how the game will evolve.
jinro has made it to GSL round of 4. TWICE. no other foreigner has done that. but you know what, pains me to say this, but he is no longer good or relevant. i think he's a fantastic person and i love watching his stream. but results do not lie.
he gets a free pass though because he's a super nice guy, whereas idra is not. granted idra is more entertaining, but at least for me, i derive entertainment laughing *at* him, not with him.
|
On July 04 2012 08:07 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 08:01 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 04 2012 07:56 fishjie wrote:On July 04 2012 07:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 04 2012 06:44 Embir wrote:On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.
personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak. Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2. As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department... is there an expiration date on results? idra has a long history of talent. he doesn't get top 10 at all in MLG, Dreamhack, or any major tournaments he enters anymore. even when he was "good", he lost to hallucinated void rays, terrans blowing up their own command centers, and "walkovers" like cruncher he has a history of being a douche but in beta he could back it up, but now he just keeps losing credibility. it IS hilarious to see him rage though, so he's got that going for him. oh and that and calling koreans terrible, when they would roflstomp him in a bo10 showmatch his results have been less than stellar this year--no doubt about that. but his history has shown he has staying power. he is more than qualified to express opinions on how the game is being played, and how the game will evolve. jinro has made it to GSL round of 4. TWICE. no other foreigner has done that. but you know what, pains me to say this, but he is no longer good or relevant. i think he's a fantastic person and i love watching his stream. but results do not lie. he gets a free pass though because he's a super nice guy, whereas idra is not. granted idra is more entertaining, but at least for me, i derive entertainment laughing *at* him, not with him.
wait, are you saying jinro is not qualified to talk about the game as well?
|
Well most of us just watched the games Vortix vs Golden and those games was pretty good actually.
|
On July 04 2012 08:05 Mouzone wrote:
People claim IdrA has some of the best mechanics out there. That granted, wouldn't he be a tip top player then if he also understands the game so well (which he claims to do)? I mean, for me the guy just doesn't appear very credible in questions such as these. He has a big ego though, gotta give him that.
Weird how much a mental block sort of thing can hold you back. That's the only explenation I can find for him to do so extremely shitty this year. I don't think you should set the standards for him too high though, there are plenty players who have better mechanics and understands the game better than him. I don't think just being smart about the game is enough though, you gotta be able to put it into practical use as well
|
On July 04 2012 07:47 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago. except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers. What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP? 8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.) So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues. IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets.
Sorry but most people consider Morrow way more succesful than Idra as a zerg player, in terms of skill at least, not PR/popularity. Not to mention, each persons record speaks for itself
Morrow 51% win rate
Idra 33% win rate
As far as the ovie buff call a year ago.... really? You're picking at straws now. If you haven't noticed almost 50% of the units in sc2 got buffed/nerfed so it isn't hard to notice which units need buffs/nerfs. A far more amazing thing is to hear a pro-gamer predict the metagame before it happens. That shows he is ahead of the curve.
|
I think ZvZ as of late has been really good, one of the best matchups to watch at the moment
|
On July 04 2012 07:00 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 06:44 Embir wrote:On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.
personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak. Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2. As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department... is there an expiration date on results? idra has a long history of talent.
Um yes? Just because the USSR was a superpower in the 70s doesnt mean they are now.
|
On July 04 2012 07:47 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago. except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers. What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP? 8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.) So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues. IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets.
wanting a buff is hardly "top notch" analysis.
shocker, the buff helped!
|
On July 04 2012 08:12 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 07:47 SupLilSon wrote:On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago. except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers. What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP? 8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.) So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues. IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets. Sorry but most people consider Morrow way more succesful than Idra as a zerg player, in terms of skill at least, not PR/popularity. Not to mention, each persons record speaks for itself Morrow 51% win rateIdra 33% win rateAs far as the ovie buff call a year ago.... really? You're picking at straws now. If you haven't noticed almost 50% of the units in sc2 got buffed/nerfed so it isn't hard to notice which units need buffs/nerfs. A far more amazing thing is to hear a pro-gamer predict the metagame before it happens. That shows he is ahead of the curve.
There was also the bunker nerf, the early rax nerf, the ghost nerf(he did predict mass ghost lategame before it happened) and the zerg buffs in ZvP(infestors, which were later nerfed back a notch after people actually started using them) A lot of the stuff Idra whined about ended up getting touched on in some way or the other. Not to legitimize everything he said, cus he did say some pretty ridicolous stuff as well
|
On July 04 2012 08:14 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 07:47 SupLilSon wrote:On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago. except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers. What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP? 8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.) So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues. IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets. wanting a buff is hardly "top notch" analysis. shocker, the buff helped!
He didn't say that the need for an overlord buff was his top notch analysis. Go watch some casts with Idra, and you will see he is a really good analytical caster. Kind of dull if he isn't placed with someone who can throw out some humour to break up the sometimes monotone speech though
|
I don`t get the Idra hate here (and I`m not a fan). What he writes is pretty reasonable and sums up the general problems of ZvZ which is that it is unpredictable and volatile, at least in the early game. With the different macro technique ZvZ relies a lot on good calls about your opponents number of drones. Also with the baneling there is a huge hit-or-miss component in the early games. Because of those 2 aspects ZvZ differs a lot from TvT where also different builds are possible but the early feels way more stable. It is important to note, however, that Idra mostly blames the fact that the ZvZ matchup isn`t yet properly understood, whereas e.g TvT feels somewhat figured out. So just because some TLers dislike a player that doesn`t warrant this kind of hate-train.
|
I love the way that people can judge whether pro players are allowed to speak or not. Because the people judging obviously have more game knowledge than the pros, so they know that the pros are wrong.
The cognitive dissonance of telling pros that they aren't allowed to speak because they're not good enough and yet judging themselves worthy of speaking is mind boggling. Shocker: if only the people at the tiptop should be able to speak, why the fuck does TL or Reddit exist except as drama-aggregators and meme machines?
|
|
|
Why did I expect a ZvZ discussion when I entered this thread? I know better than that.
|
I just thought I would post a video of Idra and cella demonstrating the ZVZ metagame.. taken from Idra's stream.
http://www.twitch.tv/eg_idra/b/302642330
Seeing as how this is an idra post and its gives a really good idea of how they understand the matchup.
|
lol idra is terrible at zvz
bring Morrow and Nerchio anyday
|
On July 04 2012 08:16 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 08:12 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 07:47 SupLilSon wrote:On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago. except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers. What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP? 8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.) So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues. IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets. Sorry but most people consider Morrow way more succesful than Idra as a zerg player, in terms of skill at least, not PR/popularity. Not to mention, each persons record speaks for itself Morrow 51% win rateIdra 33% win rateAs far as the ovie buff call a year ago.... really? You're picking at straws now. If you haven't noticed almost 50% of the units in sc2 got buffed/nerfed so it isn't hard to notice which units need buffs/nerfs. A far more amazing thing is to hear a pro-gamer predict the metagame before it happens. That shows he is ahead of the curve. There was also the bunker nerf, the early rax nerf, the ghost nerf(he did predict mass ghost lategame before it happened) and the zerg buffs in ZvP(infestors, which were later nerfed back a notch after people actually started using them) A lot of the stuff Idra whined about ended up getting touched on in some way or the other. Not to legitimize everything he said, cus he did say some pretty ridicolous stuff as well
Just had to respond to this...First, I have to agree that with Idra's current results he should do less talking about balance, and look more at his own results...I wish I could put it in a more respectful way, but I really don't feel like he is an authority on this subject, I dont think you can be with that winrate.
Second..about the things he "called". Do you understand why a cold reading works? A person always remembers the positive things, the things that came true. Do you also remember how many things that Idra wanted did not get rebalanced in the game.
Anyway, I don't mean any of this as insulting, I value Idra as an entertaining figure in the SC2 scene, similar to how I view InControl as an entertainer, and they put out a lot of content for our viewing pleasure...but I just can't view them as an authority when it comes to balance, or game knowledge anymore, and I really hope they will talk a bit less about balance, and a bit more about how they are planning to pick themselves up and become competitive again.
|
On July 04 2012 05:19 Flossy wrote:
I for one love to watch ZvZ. It's so micro intensive and random. Never knowing what will happen and the smallest mistake makes you lose.
But I hate playing it. So frustrating. :/
Wait.. I think I've heard of another game where every matchup is similar to that.
On July 04 2012 07:29 McBengt wrote:As said in the article, the general lack of hard counters make it much more a game of mechanics and mind games, i.e. like BW, which can only be a good thing.
If every matchup played like a mix between TvZ and ZvZ this game would be fucking amazing.
Yes. I meant this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
