Idra gets a lot of love and even more hate. Here are my thoughts.
Everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This goes for everyone. No one (aside from Day9 ) is all knowing when it comes to SC2. Idra's thoughts, especially when it comes to balance are typically over the top and not always true. That does not mean that it shouldn't hold some merit. Last weeks SOTG with Qxc is a good example. Some of the things Idra proposed are completely true and are overlooked. Terrans started complaining about imbalance in the match up before they even tried to adjust their builds. However, on the other hand Idra is too stubborn to see that there might be some factors that point both sides can be right. Far too often its "I'm right. Your a fucking retard." I remain a fan nonetheless as I think he is a good person and does do a lot to keep the community talking and together.
That said, interesting article. I'll have to read it more in depth. A few pages back this was noted but the early game is far too fragile but that might not necessarily force a buff/nerf. The queen range is already producing a bunch of new Queen focused ZvZ opens and I see this continuing to push the game forward. Time will tell but there's no reason to start attacking someone before you even take time to read what they have to say. Far too many people are focusing on the person and not the article itself. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it!
On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote: Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.
except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.
What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP?
8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.)
So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues.
IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets.
Sorry but most people consider Morrow way more succesful than Idra as a zerg player, in terms of skill at least, not PR/popularity. Not to mention, each persons record speaks for itself
As far as the ovie buff call a year ago.... really? You're picking at straws now. If you haven't noticed almost 50% of the units in sc2 got buffed/nerfed so it isn't hard to notice which units need buffs/nerfs. A far more amazing thing is to hear a pro-gamer predict the metagame before it happens. That shows he is ahead of the curve.
There was also the bunker nerf, the early rax nerf, the ghost nerf(he did predict mass ghost lategame before it happened) and the zerg buffs in ZvP(infestors, which were later nerfed back a notch after people actually started using them) A lot of the stuff Idra whined about ended up getting touched on in some way or the other. Not to legitimize everything he said, cus he did say some pretty ridicolous stuff as well
Just had to respond to this...First, I have to agree that with Idra's current results he should do less talking about balance, and look more at his own results...I wish I could put it in a more respectful way, but I really don't feel like he is an authority on this subject, I dont think you can be with that winrate.
Second..about the things he "called". Do you understand why a cold reading works? A person always remembers the positive things, the things that came true. Do you also remember how many things that Idra wanted did not get rebalanced in the game.
Anyway, I don't mean any of this as insulting, I value Idra as an entertaining figure in the SC2 scene, similar to how I view InControl as an entertainer, and they put out a lot of content for our viewing pleasure...but I just can't view them as an authority when it comes to balance, or game knowledge anymore, and I really hope they will talk a bit less about balance, and a bit more about how they are planning to pick themselves up and become competitive again.
So basically, you repeat everything I said. I said I didn't want to legitimize everything he said because he said a lot of bullshit as well. Or did you chose to ignore that part? In this particular article he isn't even talking about balance, and do you really think he talks too much about balance, and too little of how to fix his own play..? I find it hard to believe you actually think so
On July 04 2012 08:23 jmbthirteen wrote: Why did I expect a ZvZ discussion when I entered this thread? (snip)
Re: Idra hate / haters of Idra Hate -
Everyone's got their own opinion, and are entitled to it. A lot of posters, though, are discounting others' opinion wholesale. Oh wait, but why would I expect any different?
Anyways, let's all not take everything too seriously. Try to respect other posters.
--
As far as people from Germany or China &c posting - I don't know, maybe they don't know IdrA's history, and are honestly confused. Maybe it's easier for someone from NA or those more familiar with Idra's history.
A lot of controversy attaches to Idra's BM (bad manners) and temprament. It's true he used to perform very well and recently hasn't been doing so well, but that's secondary to his BM and temprament.
Suppose you know a genius auto mechanic that's always drunk and swearing and saying wild stuff. Now suppose he says that your car is making a weird noise and that it's going to explode in a couple days.
If this mechanic was just a genius auto mechanic, then you're going to take what he says very seriously and take your car in immediately for an inspection.
If this mechanic was just a regular auto mechanic, you might think he's maybe exaggerating, but you'll still think about taking your car in for an inspection really soon.
But this mechanic is ALWAYS saying wild stuff. The first time he saw your car he said you should be ashamed for driving a piece of crap like that and that you'd get better performance, speed, and attitude rom a donkey. When you saw him on the street, he said that you can use urine instead of engine oil for your car just so long as you change it every 500 miles. Etc. etc.
That's Idra.
Even when he's making sense, you're almost afraid to take it seriously, because it's Idra talking. He's not always saying outrageous or ridiculous stuff, but he does it regularly enough that it hurts his credibility. It might be that he's just someone that expresses his beliefs strongly. Or maybe he just likes to make up ridiculous and inflammatory stuff and behave badly, because he thinks it's fun. Or maybe he does things like these to psych out his opponents. Or maybe it's all part of a clever marketing scheme to give Idra a distinct identity in the egamer community. But regardless of the reasons, the fact remains that when Idra says something, it's Idra that's saying it. Even if it makes perfect sense, you have to think twice about accepting it at face value because of the source.
Is he saying it because he's analyzed it and thinks it's true? Is he saying it because he's mad at something that happened recently? Is he saying it as part of a publicity stunt? Is he saying it because he's just messing around? Is he saying it because he's playing mind games? Who knows?
So there's some very understandable backlash against taking Idra seriously.
I've never hated zvz, a lot of people I play on ladder attempt the zergling infestor with lots of counter attacking, and against my roach infestor play it's damn hard to take a 3rd but I always when after stopping a counter attack hard...
On July 04 2012 06:32 procrastibation wrote: Not much to see here. Just a scripted interview made by EG's pr team to make as much money as possible. I doubt these are idra's genuine and original opinions. EG went through an entire process of PR and editing to create a perfect article with the sole purpose of getting as many views as possible so they make money. I mean why the hell would idra want to share his opinions, if not to make as much money as possible. We all know that Idra's true opinion would be more like "omg zvz total coinflip can't win even tho i'm more skilled blizzard are imbeciles," but this wouldn't be as popular as a totally scripted interview that has been designed to be as popular as possible to get the maximum amount of viewers possible. just the same old corporate scheming to find out ways to make as much possible money with no consideration for the consumer
As a former writer for EG, I can honestly say 100% that there isn't a mysterious "PR team" that edits the hell out of every answer. While the answers may be cleaned slightly for grammar and readability, the opinions expressed are absolutely the unmolested opinions of the players.
On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote: Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.
except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.
What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP?
8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.)
So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues.
IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets.
Sorry but most people consider Morrow way more succesful than Idra as a zerg player, in terms of skill at least, not PR/popularity. Not to mention, each persons record speaks for itself
As far as the ovie buff call a year ago.... really? You're picking at straws now. If you haven't noticed almost 50% of the units in sc2 got buffed/nerfed so it isn't hard to notice which units need buffs/nerfs. A far more amazing thing is to hear a pro-gamer predict the metagame before it happens. That shows he is ahead of the curve.
There was also the bunker nerf, the early rax nerf, the ghost nerf(he did predict mass ghost lategame before it happened) and the zerg buffs in ZvP(infestors, which were later nerfed back a notch after people actually started using them) A lot of the stuff Idra whined about ended up getting touched on in some way or the other. Not to legitimize everything he said, cus he did say some pretty ridicolous stuff as well
Just had to respond to this...First, I have to agree that with Idra's current results he should do less talking about balance, and look more at his own results...I wish I could put it in a more respectful way, but I really don't feel like he is an authority on this subject, I dont think you can be with that winrate.
Second..about the things he "called". Do you understand why a cold reading works? A person always remembers the positive things, the things that came true. Do you also remember how many things that Idra wanted did not get rebalanced in the game.
Anyway, I don't mean any of this as insulting, I value Idra as an entertaining figure in the SC2 scene, similar to how I view InControl as an entertainer, and they put out a lot of content for our viewing pleasure...but I just can't view them as an authority when it comes to balance, or game knowledge anymore, and I really hope they will talk a bit less about balance, and a bit more about how they are planning to pick themselves up and become competitive again.
So basically, you repeat everything I said. I said I didn't want to legitimize everything he said because he said a lot of bullshit as well. Or did you chose to ignore that part? In this particular article he isn't even talking about balance, and do you really think he talks too much about balance, and too little of how to fix his own play..? I find it hard to believe you actually think so
Sorry if I was not clear, I was not responding to you directly, but to the entire conversation and giving my opinion, if that matched much of what you said, then great!
On July 04 2012 08:31 Domus wrote: Just had to respond to this...First, I have to agree that with Idra's current results he should do less talking about balance, and look more at his own results...I wish I could put it in a more respectful way, but I really don't feel like he is an authority on this subject, I dont think you can be with that winrate.
A lot of posters think that if you win a lot you are suddenly qualified to say things about the game. If you don't win a lot your opinion is trash. This isn't to pick on Domus. A lot of posters on TL have made it very clear that this is what they believe. Furthermore, they feel they "just have" to chip in with their opinion that this is the case.
Well, seriously now.
I suppose if you're an engineer that designs rifles, that your opinion has zero validity unless you're an Olympic-level shooter. If you're an architect that designs houses, your opinion has zero validity if you live in a house that you yourself didn't build. If you're a forensic scientist, your opinion has zero validity unless you're examining your own corpse. Obviously nobody can be an expert on poisons. Because anyone that hasn't taken fatal amounts of poison is clearly not qualified to be an expert, and anyone that *has* taken fatal amounts of poison isn't qualified to judge anything. Q.E.D.
ZVZ is my favorite matchup.I really like baneling wars, lots of high intensity micro/decision making. Its way more fun than roach wars. There is nothing better than being able to completely destroy a much larger ling/bling force because you have superior unit control. Unfortunately queen buff severely hurt this.
On July 04 2012 09:02 ShiroKaisen wrote:(snip) As a former writer for EG, I can honestly say 100% that there isn't a mysterious "PR team" that edits the hell out of every answer. While the answers may be cleaned slightly for grammar and readability, the opinions expressed are absolutely the unmolested opinions of the players.
That's exactly the sort of answer I would expect from a mysterious "PR team" for EG.
I expect you'll say this is just a coincidence.
Oddly enough, that would *also* be what I would expect from a mysterious "PR team" for EG.
On July 04 2012 09:17 adacan wrote: ZVZ is my favorite matchup.I really like baneling wars, lots of high intensity micro/decision making. Its way more fun than roach wars. There is nothing better than being able to completely destroy a much larger ling/bling force because you have superior unit control. Unfortunately queen buff severely hurt this.
From a spectator's point of view I agree, the baneling micro wars are extremely exciting. But from a competitive/player's point of view I think it is too volatile and unforgiving. Of course, usually the one with the best micro is going to win, but there are those times where you take a second to do injects and you lose 6 lings to a baneling, or that one time when you missed a few frames during a hectic moment or something, and those just feel so crappy
On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote: sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content. this community makes me scratch my head alot.
personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak.
Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2. As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department...
is there an expiration date on results? idra has a long history of talent.
he doesn't get top 10 at all in MLG, Dreamhack, or any major tournaments he enters anymore. even when he was "good", he lost to hallucinated void rays, terrans blowing up their own command centers, and "walkovers" like cruncher he has a history of being a douche but in beta he could back it up, but now he just keeps losing credibility. it IS hilarious to see him rage though, so he's got that going for him. oh and that and calling koreans terrible, when they would roflstomp him in a bo10 showmatch
Just FYI, the hallucinated VR thing? He won that series, and was the highest-finishing Zerg. Just sayin'. It's a bit of a dumb example for you to bring up. Basically says you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
I don't understand the OP's views on zvz. It is an extremely fun matchup to watch and play. It is hectic and I understand that it seems often very different from other matchups, but for this reason it is also extremely interesting. I think that idra is upset that he can't set his game plan in stone before the game starts like you can in the other zerg matchups, but that doesnt make it a bad matchup or "too dynamic".
On July 04 2012 08:31 Domus wrote: Just had to respond to this...First, I have to agree that with Idra's current results he should do less talking about balance, and look more at his own results...I wish I could put it in a more respectful way, but I really don't feel like he is an authority on this subject, I dont think you can be with that winrate.
A lot of posters think that if you win a lot you are suddenly qualified to say things about the game. If you don't win a lot your opinion is trash. This isn't to pick on Domus. A lot of posters on TL have made it very clear that this is what they believe. Furthermore, they feel they "just have" to chip in with their opinion that this is the case.
Well, seriously now.
I suppose if you're an engineer that designs rifles, that your opinion has zero validity unless you're an Olympic-level shooter. If you're an architect that designs houses, your opinion has zero validity if you live in a house that you yourself didn't build. If you're a forensic scientist, your opinion has zero validity unless you're examining your own corpse. Obviously nobody can be an expert on poisons. Because anyone that hasn't taken fatal amounts of poison is clearly not qualified to be an expert, and anyone that *has* taken fatal amounts of poison isn't qualified to judge anything. Q.E.D.
I think your argumentation is flawed tough...
A cop who likes to shoot guns might not know how to design a good gun, an olympic-level shooter might know a lot about a very specific gun. But the person who designs guns day in day out should have most knowledge about designing guns. Idra is the cop...
A carpenter might know how to put down a good floor, but he does not design the house. A master carpenter might know how to make a very good floor. An architect knows the ins and outs about building a house..Idra is the carpenter...
...etc...So yes, I would value the opinion of the game designers of SC2 over that of the best pro player. They have all the data, they have all the internal knowledge, and know what went into the decision making....but I would value an incredibly skilled player opinion over that of an average player. At this point Idra is neither a game designer, nor an incredibly skilled player (as in code S GSL).
It's interesting to watch, but I have to imagine that, at the highest level, it's hard as hell to play. There are more things happening that have to be reacted to sorta ad-hoc than in any other matchup, and at the highest level of play I can imagine that taking a serious mental toll.
Honestly the dynamic/random aspect of ZvZ is why I really enjoy watching the MU, however I can understand why that would make it frustrating to play. IMO the most stale match to watch right now is PvZ; if it goes past 18 minutes, it's just waiting for whether the Archon Toilet is going to land successfully or all out fail, however long it takes for that to happen.
On July 04 2012 08:31 Domus wrote: Just had to respond to this...First, I have to agree that with Idra's current results he should do less talking about balance, and look more at his own results...I wish I could put it in a more respectful way, but I really don't feel like he is an authority on this subject, I dont think you can be with that winrate.
A lot of posters think that if you win a lot you are suddenly qualified to say things about the game. If you don't win a lot your opinion is trash. This isn't to pick on Domus. A lot of posters on TL have made it very clear that this is what they believe. Furthermore, they feel they "just have" to chip in with their opinion that this is the case.
Well, seriously now.
I suppose if you're an engineer that designs rifles, that your opinion has zero validity unless you're an Olympic-level shooter. If you're an architect that designs houses, your opinion has zero validity if you live in a house that you yourself didn't build. If you're a forensic scientist, your opinion has zero validity unless you're examining your own corpse. Obviously nobody can be an expert on poisons. Because anyone that hasn't taken fatal amounts of poison is clearly not qualified to be an expert, and anyone that *has* taken fatal amounts of poison isn't qualified to judge anything. Q.E.D.
I think your argumentation is flawed tough...
A cop who likes to shoot guns might not know how to design a good gun, an olympic-level shooter might know a lot about a very specific gun. But the person who designs guns day in day out should have most knowledge about designing guns. Idra is the cop...
A carpenter might know how to put down a good floor, but he does not design the house. A master carpenter might know how to make a very good floor. An architect knows the ins and outs about building a house..Idra is the carpenter...
...etc...So yes, I would value the opinion of the game designers of SC2 over that of the best pro player. They have all the data, they have all the internal knowledge, and know what went into the decision making....but I would value an incredibly skilled player opinion over that of an average player.
When we're talking about balance, I'd much rather have the opinions of a pro player over a game designer. It's more like talking to an architect and a home resident. The architect is telling you that the ceiling is fine and totally secure, don't even worry about it, while the homeowner is busy digging himself out of his collapsed house.
On July 04 2012 09:35 Oiseaux wrote: Honestly the dynamic/random aspect of ZvZ is why I really enjoy watching the MU, however I can understand why that would make it frustrating to play. IMO the most stale match to watch right now is PvZ; if it goes past 18 minutes, it's just waiting for whether the Archon Toilet is going to land successfully, however long it takes for that to happen.
I totally agree. ZvP is terrible, just terrible. The Mothership-Archon/Broodlord-Infestor interactions are so, so bad.
On July 04 2012 08:31 Domus wrote: Just had to respond to this...First, I have to agree that with Idra's current results he should do less talking about balance, and look more at his own results...I wish I could put it in a more respectful way, but I really don't feel like he is an authority on this subject, I dont think you can be with that winrate.
A lot of posters think that if you win a lot you are suddenly qualified to say things about the game. If you don't win a lot your opinion is trash. This isn't to pick on Domus. A lot of posters on TL have made it very clear that this is what they believe. Furthermore, they feel they "just have" to chip in with their opinion that this is the case.
Well, seriously now.
I suppose if you're an engineer that designs rifles, that your opinion has zero validity unless you're an Olympic-level shooter. If you're an architect that designs houses, your opinion has zero validity if you live in a house that you yourself didn't build. If you're a forensic scientist, your opinion has zero validity unless you're examining your own corpse. Obviously nobody can be an expert on poisons. Because anyone that hasn't taken fatal amounts of poison is clearly not qualified to be an expert, and anyone that *has* taken fatal amounts of poison isn't qualified to judge anything. Q.E.D.
I think your argumentation is flawed tough...
A cop who likes to shoot guns might not know how to design a good gun, an olympic-level shooter might know a lot about a very specific gun. But the person who designs guns day in day out should have most knowledge about designing guns. Idra is the cop...
A carpenter might know how to put down a good floor, but he does not design the house. A master carpenter might know how to make a very good floor. An architect knows the ins and outs about building a house..Idra is the carpenter...
...etc...So yes, I would value the opinion of the game designers of SC2 over that of the best pro player. They have all the data, they have all the internal knowledge, and know what went into the decision making....but I would value an incredibly skilled player opinion over that of an average player.
When we're talking about balance, I'd much rather have the opinions of a pro player over a game designer. It's more like talking to an architect and a home resident. The architect is telling you that the ceiling is fine and totally secure, don't even worry about it, while the homeowner is busy digging himself out of his collapsed house.
, I think you undervalue the game designers of SC2, to me they are worth a 100 pro-gamers. They built this amazing game that is still played and enjoyed by millions of people, and they created a product that people pay to watch years after its release...As a game designer myself I can not begin to explain to people how hard it is to build something as good as SC2.
EPT
) is all knowing when it comes to SC2. Idra's thoughts, especially when it comes to balance are typically over the top and not always true. That does not mean that it shouldn't hold some merit. Last weeks SOTG with Qxc is a good example. Some of the things Idra proposed are completely true and are overlooked. Terrans started complaining about imbalance in the match up before they even tried to adjust their builds. However, on the other hand Idra is too stubborn to see that there might be some factors that point both sides can be right. Far too often its "I'm right. Your a fucking retard." I remain a fan nonetheless as I think he is a good person and does do a lot to keep the community talking and together.
he has a history of being a douche but in beta he could back it up, but now he just keeps losing credibility. it IS hilarious to see him rage though, so he's got that going for him. oh and that and calling koreans terrible, when they would roflstomp him in a bo10 showmatch
