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On July 04 2012 04:46 Sc2Null wrote:
ZvZ is a matchup mostly of mindgames. Its similar to PvP in the respect that the smallest decision can impact the game overall. The volatility of ZvZ comes from the speed of the units and zergs natural weak defense. My favorite matchup when mutas aren't involved imo.
edit: also, quoting Idra adds nothing to the discussion..get an interview from nestea or drg.
It's ironic that you say that quoting idra adds nothing to the discussion... directly after adding to the discussion with your thoroughly nebulous repetitive post.
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what ever happened to zling/muta into ultra transition? wasn't that the rage a while back.
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On July 04 2012 10:53 [Psychosis] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 10:49 zEnVy wrote:On July 04 2012 08:01 Issamu wrote:On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. 6 pool is a BO loss to every other build I've seen some dumb things, but this is pretty high up there. Go hatch first against a 6 pool, I bet you can totally hold it. He's saying that a 6 pool loses against basically every other build except for a 15 hatch and a 14 pool.
15 drones vs 6 lings? lol ill take the drones any day
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How the hell can a match-up be "Too dynamic"? Now, I'm not going to bash on IdrA personally, because he's awesome, but he tends to complain about things that are a specific issue for him, but then communicates it in a very general sense. I think this leads to misunderstandings about certain match-ups among his many fans sometimes.
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I agree with what IdrA is saying about the game past 3 base.
It really comes down to feeling it out.. it becomes really hard to make a set way to describe who wins and who loses.
Nyduses, drops, counter attacks, expanding, and economic and army advantages all come into play, as well as upgrades, tech choices, and army positioning.
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That is an interesting opinion for sure of Idra's. I personally agree that ZvZ is incredibly volatile, but I don't know that nobody understands it. I think that it is simply so dynamic that no one can truly map out the one or two best ways to play it. If he thinks that it isn't understood, then I wonder if it ever will be considering how close we are to HoTS and many people switching over to that.
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time to diss idra because of this little article.
im pretty sure idra doesn't even want to make this inteview, but EG made this just for marketing purposes.
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On July 04 2012 04:45 Paljas wrote:
nestea doesnt mind zvz.
and life neither
dude, if you read the opening paragraph, idra talks about how ZvZ isn't imba, it's mind games, so obviously some players will enjoy it more than others. Nestea is on one end of the spectrum, Morrow is on another. whats your point?
On July 04 2012 11:11 ninazerg wrote:
How the hell can a match-up be "Too dynamic"? Now, I'm not going to bash on IdrA personally, because he's awesome, but he tends to complain about things that are a specific issue for him, but then communicates it in a very general sense. I think this leads to misunderstandings about certain match-ups among his many fans sometimes.
he's the type of guy who would rather not teach noobs how to play this game, if he wants to be general and let his fans guess his motives, then who cares? fans don't dictate what another person does or says, it's up to them. Besides, the general statements are enough, it's quite possible he simply doesn't want to reveal anything he's been working on. However, I think he is right though, the match up is volatile at every moment in the game. PvP settled down with the immortal patch, and it's still volatile but there are really no early game rushes, which is always a possibility in a ZvZ. Then when the game drags on towards infestors, it starts to become really hard to tell how many hydras you want, whether you should risk going broodlords but get run over by mass roach or simply going muta, I definitely think Idra hit the nail on the head.
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On July 04 2012 11:07 optical630 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 10:53 [Psychosis] wrote:On July 04 2012 10:49 zEnVy wrote:On July 04 2012 08:01 Issamu wrote:On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. 6 pool is a BO loss to every other build I've seen some dumb things, but this is pretty high up there. Go hatch first against a 6 pool, I bet you can totally hold it. He's saying that a 6 pool loses against basically every other build except for a 15 hatch and a 14 pool. 15 drones vs 6 lings? lol ill take the drones any day
You'll lose. That's the entire point of 6-pooling; it beats Hatch-first. The basic rule of ZvZ is the later your pool, the better, as long as you don't hatch-first. So a 10-pool beats a 6-pool, but loses to a 14-pool. The 14-pool loses to Hatch-first, which loses to a 6-pool.
Idra in January GSL went 0-2 against Nestea. In game one, he opened with a 10-pool, but NesTea's 13-pool was a better opening. In game two, Idra went 15-hatch 16-pool and lost to NesTea's 10-pool.
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On July 04 2012 11:11 ninazerg wrote:
How the hell can a match-up be "Too dynamic"? Now, I'm not going to bash on IdrA personally, because he's awesome, but he tends to complain about things that are a specific issue for him, but then communicates it in a very general sense. I think this leads to misunderstandings about certain match-ups among his many fans sometimes.
What he was saying is that the matchup is so dynamic that players don't understand it yet. He added that it's not something that needs to be patched and that eventually players will get a better grasp on it.
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On July 04 2012 11:30 emc wrote:dude, if you read the opening paragraph, idra talks about how ZvZ isn't imba, it's mind games, so obviously some players will enjoy it more than others. Nestea is on one end of the spectrum, Morrow is on another. whats your point? Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 11:11 ninazerg wrote:
How the hell can a match-up be "Too dynamic"? Now, I'm not going to bash on IdrA personally, because he's awesome, but he tends to complain about things that are a specific issue for him, but then communicates it in a very general sense. I think this leads to misunderstandings about certain match-ups among his many fans sometimes. he's the type of guy who would rather not teach noobs how to play this game, if he wants to be general and let his fans guess his motives, then who cares? fans don't dictate what another person does or says, it's up to them. Besides, the general statements are enough, it's quite possible he simply doesn't want to reveal anything he's been working on. However, I think he is right though, the match up is volatile at every moment in the game. PvP settled down with the immortal patch, and it's still volatile but there are really no early game rushes, which is always a possibility in a ZvZ. Then when the game drags on towards infestors, it starts to become really hard to tell how many hydras you want, whether you should risk going broodlords but get run over by mass roach or simply going muta, I definitely think Idra hit the nail on the head.
There's also the options of drop, Nydus and Ultras in there, plus expansion timings. Even creep spread; how much do you want? when do you want it?
PvP IMO was never this volatile. It was a much worse matchup because of the 4-gate issues, but there's never been the range of choice you get in ZvZs.
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ZvZ is my best, and favorite matchup, but then again I'm a lowbie and very macro focused so my edge on my opponents is usually macro, while my engagements, scouting, and micro are all worse.
So a mirror matchup is inherently shifted in my favor as long as I don't do a build that just dies to something early. Pool Hatch Gas seems great so far.
I like watching ZvZ too, just because I feel like there's always a lot more skirmishy action than there is in any other matchup. You can't wall off and zerglings are hella cheap so it's almost always worth it to run some into someone's nat or third or fourth.
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On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 10:38 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a spike in lag during a baneling war? What about a spike in lag during a 8 gate? On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. BO orders =/= randomness In a way, they do. Can't really scout a 6-pool before your 15-hatch. Can't really scout a 14-pool before you 6-pool. Wrong opening = GG. That's less true now, though, as everyone's sorta going 15/15/15. That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent. It's nobody else's fault but your own.
Believe it or not, there's someone else in the game. It's not just you against the AI.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 04 2012 11:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 10:38 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a spike in lag during a baneling war? What about a spike in lag during a 8 gate? On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. BO orders =/= randomness In a way, they do. Can't really scout a 6-pool before your 15-hatch. Can't really scout a 14-pool before you 6-pool. Wrong opening = GG. That's less true now, though, as everyone's sorta going 15/15/15. That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent. It's nobody else's fault but your own. Believe it or not, there's someone else in the game. It's not just you against the AI.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
MINDGAME YOUR OPPONENT.
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On July 04 2012 11:45 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 11:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 10:38 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a spike in lag during a baneling war? What about a spike in lag during a 8 gate? On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. BO orders =/= randomness In a way, they do. Can't really scout a 6-pool before your 15-hatch. Can't really scout a 14-pool before you 6-pool. Wrong opening = GG. That's less true now, though, as everyone's sorta going 15/15/15. That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent. It's nobody else's fault but your own. Believe it or not, there's someone else in the game. It's not just you against the AI. Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
Stop and think for a minute.
You aren't the only player who chooses an opening. Your opponent does too, whether you try to mindgame them or not. Their opening is independent of yours. Sometimes they will 6-pool. Sometimes they'll 10-pool. Sometimes they'll 14-pool. Sometimes they'll 15-Hatch. There are games in which you will have completely random strictly BO losses because YOUR OPPONENT did a thing. You aren't always the proactive player.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 04 2012 11:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 11:45 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 11:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 10:38 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a spike in lag during a baneling war? What about a spike in lag during a 8 gate? On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. BO orders =/= randomness In a way, they do. Can't really scout a 6-pool before your 15-hatch. Can't really scout a 14-pool before you 6-pool. Wrong opening = GG. That's less true now, though, as everyone's sorta going 15/15/15. That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent. It's nobody else's fault but your own. Believe it or not, there's someone else in the game. It's not just you against the AI. On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
MINDGAME YOUR OPPONENT.
Stop and think for a minute. You aren't the only player who chooses an opening. Your opponent does too, whether you try to mindgame them or not. Their opening is independent of yours. Sometimes they will 6-pool. Sometimes they'll 10-pool. Sometimes they'll 14-pool. Sometimes they'll 15-Hatch. There are games in which you will have completely random strictly BO losses because YOUR OPPONENT did a thing. You aren't always the proactive player.
False. All opening builds are performed based on available information about the map, your opponent's mindset, and the score of the series. When your opponent opens 6 pool he makes a true/false assumption about what your opening build will be. None of this classifies as "random", "luck", or any nonsense like that.
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On July 04 2012 12:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 11:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 11:45 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 11:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 10:38 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a spike in lag during a baneling war? What about a spike in lag during a 8 gate? On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. BO orders =/= randomness In a way, they do. Can't really scout a 6-pool before your 15-hatch. Can't really scout a 14-pool before you 6-pool. Wrong opening = GG. That's less true now, though, as everyone's sorta going 15/15/15. That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent. It's nobody else's fault but your own. Believe it or not, there's someone else in the game. It's not just you against the AI. On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
MINDGAME YOUR OPPONENT.
Stop and think for a minute. You aren't the only player who chooses an opening. Your opponent does too, whether you try to mindgame them or not. Their opening is independent of yours. Sometimes they will 6-pool. Sometimes they'll 10-pool. Sometimes they'll 14-pool. Sometimes they'll 15-Hatch. There are games in which you will have completely random strictly BO losses because YOUR OPPONENT did a thing. You aren't always the proactive player. False. All opening builds are performed based on available information about the map, your opponent's mindset, and the score of the series. When your opponent opens 6 pool he makes a true/false assumption about what your opening build will be. None of this classifies as "random", "luck", or any nonsense like that.
I respectfully disagree. When a zerg 6 pools he/he/she does so under the assumption that they can not win in a straight up game. Since they know that their odds of winning in a straight up match or near to none, they decide to react by executing a "coin flip" build, which gives them a higher probability than near to none. I know it's confusing and it might take you a while to understand what I am trying to say, but once you do you will understand that a 6 pool has more to do with straight up probability than any of the things you listed.
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On July 04 2012 09:33 Domus wrote:I think your argumentation is flawed tough... A cop who likes to shoot guns might not know how to design a good gun, an olympic-level shooter might know a lot about a very specific gun. But the person who designs guns day in day out should have most knowledge about designing guns. Idra is the cop... + Show Spoiler +
A carpenter might know how to put down a good floor, but he does not design the house. A master carpenter might know how to make a very good floor. An architect knows the ins and outs about building a house..Idra is the carpenter...
...etc...So yes, I would value the opinion of the game designers of SC2 over that of the best pro player. They have all the data, they have all the internal knowledge, and know what went into the decision making....but I would value an incredibly skilled player opinion over that of an average player. At this point Idra is neither a game designer, nor an incredibly skilled player (as in code S GSL).
You're free to think whatever you like. I'd be the last to say that everyone should agree with me.
But let's just take a look at your extended metaphor for a moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911a1
Following its success in trials, the Colt pistol was formally adopted by the Army on March 29, 1911, thus gaining its designation, M1911 (Model 1911). It was adopted by the Navy and Marine Corps in 1913. Originally manufactured only by Colt, demand for the firearm in World War I saw the expansion of manufacture to the government-owned Springfield Armory.[10]
Battlefield experience in the First World War led to some more small external changes, completed in 1924. The new version received a modified type classification, M1911A1. Changes to the original design were minor and consisted of a shorter trigger, cutouts in the frame behind the trigger, an arched mainspring housing, a longer grip safety spur (to prevent hammer bite), a wider front sight, a shorter spur on the hammer, and simplified grip checkering by eliminating the "Double Diamond" reliefs.[8]
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This is really true of any weapon design. Invariably, weapon design is not simply a function of the engineer, but involves feedback from the field.
Take, for example, the use of 9 mm rounds in Iraq around 2003-2004. Apparently the original military contract specified a particular finish that had problems the sandy environment of Iraq. After field reports of failures, a new contract was drawn up for a different 9 mm finish, which eliminated the problem.
Those are recent examples. What about history?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swords
The Mongol invasions of Japan in the 13th century spurred further evolution of the Japanese sword. Often forced to abandon traditional mounted archery for hand-to-hand combat, many samurai found that their swords were too delicate and prone to damage when used against the thick leather armor of the invaders. In response, Japanese swordsmiths started to adopt thinner and simpler temper lines. Certain Japanese swordsmiths of this period began to make blades with thicker backs and bigger points as a response to the Mongol threat
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Etc. etc. etc.
That is to say - in the real world, field experience has not been discounted. I consider that even in hypothetical situations, it should not be discounted either. So I discount the validity of your metaphor.
As far as being a "skilled player" - by your own thinking, if you can't regularly beat Idra in a best of 5 series, then what validity does your opinion have next to his? If he doesn't have any right to talk about SC2 balance, then ten times more for you, isn't that right?
Of course, I think you are entitled to your own opinion - that's my whole point - regardless of your skill level.
My thought is that even if Idra is losing, even if Stephano can kick Idra's ass all day every day, that's no reason to discount an Idra analysis in favor of a Stephano analysis. Both are strong players, both would probably bring up valid and important points. Just because Idra's micro/macro don't match up to Stephano's micro/macro (imo) doesn't mean that Idra doesn't have anything to contribute to a discussion.
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United States15275 Posts
On July 04 2012 12:12 procrastibation wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 12:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 11:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 11:45 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 11:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 10:38 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a spike in lag during a baneling war? What about a spike in lag during a 8 gate? On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:
[quote]
I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. BO orders =/= randomness In a way, they do. Can't really scout a 6-pool before your 15-hatch. Can't really scout a 14-pool before you 6-pool. Wrong opening = GG. That's less true now, though, as everyone's sorta going 15/15/15. That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent. It's nobody else's fault but your own. Believe it or not, there's someone else in the game. It's not just you against the AI. On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
MINDGAME YOUR OPPONENT.
Stop and think for a minute. You aren't the only player who chooses an opening. Your opponent does too, whether you try to mindgame them or not. Their opening is independent of yours. Sometimes they will 6-pool. Sometimes they'll 10-pool. Sometimes they'll 14-pool. Sometimes they'll 15-Hatch. There are games in which you will have completely random strictly BO losses because YOUR OPPONENT did a thing. You aren't always the proactive player. False. All opening builds are performed based on available information about the map, your opponent's mindset, and the score of the series. When your opponent opens 6 pool he makes a true/false assumption about what your opening build will be. None of this classifies as "random", "luck", or any nonsense like that. I respectfully disagree. When a zerg 6 pools he/he/she does so under the assumption that they can not win in a straight up game. Since they know that their odds of winning in a straight up match or near to none, they decide to react by executing a "coin flip" build, which gives them a higher probability than near to none. I know it's confusing and it might take you a while to understand what I am trying to say, but once you do you will understand that a 6 pool has more to do with straight up probability than any of the things you listed.
I respectfully disagree. When a zerg 6 pools he/she does so under the assumption that they can not win in a straight up game. Since they know that they will probably lose in a macro game, they decide to react by executing a risky build that will punish a fast expand/late pool. I know it's confusing and it might take you a while to understand what I am trying to say, but once you do you will understand that a 6 pool has more to do with an opponent's mindset than randomness.
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On July 04 2012 12:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 11:53 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 11:45 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 11:41 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 10:38 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On July 04 2012 10:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a spike in lag during a baneling war? What about a spike in lag during a 8 gate? On July 04 2012 07:38 Hardigan wrote:On July 04 2012 07:26 CosmicSpiral wrote:On July 04 2012 07:14 Ziktomini wrote:
If anything it's the early zvz which isn't mapped out, Mid-game and late game zvz is definitely understandable, it's only early game where luck and randomness comes into play. I would not say there is any luck or randomness; those are just excuses. Every loss can be traced back to a bad read, an overly risky decision or a lapse in mechanics. what about a 6pool vs 15 hatch? 6pool vs 14 pool? Luck and randomness definitely play a big role in the early game, it can win you games or give you massive advantages, if it works. BO orders =/= randomness In a way, they do. Can't really scout a 6-pool before your 15-hatch. Can't really scout a 14-pool before you 6-pool. Wrong opening = GG. That's less true now, though, as everyone's sorta going 15/15/15. That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent. It's nobody else's fault but your own. Believe it or not, there's someone else in the game. It's not just you against the AI. On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
That's the risk you take when you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
you attempt to mindgame your opponent.
On July 04 2012 10:43 CosmicSpiral wrote:
MINDGAME YOUR OPPONENT.
Stop and think for a minute. You aren't the only player who chooses an opening. Your opponent does too, whether you try to mindgame them or not. Their opening is independent of yours. Sometimes they will 6-pool. Sometimes they'll 10-pool. Sometimes they'll 14-pool. Sometimes they'll 15-Hatch. There are games in which you will have completely random strictly BO losses because YOUR OPPONENT did a thing. You aren't always the proactive player. False. All opening builds are performed based on available information about the map, your opponent's mindset, and the score of the series. When your opponent opens 6 pool he makes a true/false assumption about what your opening build will be. None of this classifies as "random", "luck", or any nonsense like that.
You might be right, but sometimes "randomness" and "luck" does play a factor in the outcome of a match. Notorious proxies and opponents just happening to scout it is quite random and lucky. Scouting that hidden spire at the edge of the map under a pooping overlord is quite random and lucky to me. You don't always "know" everything your opponent is doing. You don't always know a 6 pool is coming your way. Sometimes information doesn't get to you in time.
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